ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Lightning => Topic started by: JaimeC on March 01, 2020, 09:07:14 PM
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Short story: Save your money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV8U9_vM6Rk&feature=youtu.be
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Sam, is it too late for you to get your money back??
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There are real disagreements with their idea that it's dangerous.
-Crissa
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I won't post it here but you can search battery cell puncture on YT. So that but between your legs.
Keep in mind that's IF a cell gets punctured by a conductive object.
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As has been said before, the "danger" is greatly exaggerated, and videos like this are only hurting the company. Brandon wants people to believe it's unsafe to even stand next to the bike, yet when an LS218 owner was hit by a car, destroying his highly-conductive carbon fiber fairings, the battery did not explode. The cells weren't punctured. More importantly, this isn't the final battery design. The 20kWh packs use cylindrical 2170 cells. These early owners were told that the batteries would be temporary and upgraded later.
So no ;D I won't be cancelling my order. Bottom line is, nobody else is making a bike that looks and feels like the Strike, and that's why I want one.
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Battery cell puncture fires vary wildly based upon the kinds of cells being punctured. Many no longer short and burn out when punctured.
Also, since the fire is not primarily limited by outside oxygen, but high temperature transfer, having cells loosely arrayed makes them less likely to fail in a chain reaction.
Lastly, the amount of damage required to puncture even a laptop cell is fairly significant. An amount that would generally also puncture standard motorcycle armor (and the flesh beneath).
-Crissa
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But the Strike is NOT an LS-218. The LS-218 was built with "cost is no object" in mind. The Strike was built with "cost is the ONLY object" in mind, in other words, as cheaply as possible in China. BIG difference.
When something sounds too good to be true, it usually IS.
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Except.. the LS218 that crashed was using these batteries, and the Strikes delivered so far were built in California.. so..
Don't believe everything you see online. Some people are hell bent on this company failing. Don't even believe me. I loved the bike, but it's not for everybody. Go test ride one and make up your own decision about the ride / build quality.
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Yeah, their point about the peg placement is interesting but depends upon structure inside the swing arm and motor casing we can't see. The weight would be an issue for a Dual Sport or other rough service design, which of course the Lightning in this iteration is not.
-Crissa
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A good chunk of that podcast was about the reduction gear, but no one chimes in to talk about Energica's reduction gear. I used to think that was the reason it was so heavy, but now I'm stumped. Is it entirely the battery's fault?
Also, Energicas have carbon fiber fairings, so cf being conductive should be a concern on them too, no?
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The issue was that the CF fairing was rubbing against the top of the cells which are relativly unprotected, compared to the massive case Energica wraps around their battery pack, and the casing Zero wraps around their battery pack. Of course, Zero doesn't use CF in their bodywork so its a moot point for them anyway.
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Not sure if you guys have seen these photos of a Strike without fairings on, but let me know what looks unsafe here.
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These parts look unsafe.
(https://i.imgur.com/0V40ZQN.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/pAU5enh.jpg)
You can see why here : We show what these things look like out of the bike and I explain to Lex why they are dangerous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV8U9_vM6Rk
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"Raw cells" inside protective cases. Are you 100% sure those cases are the same flimsy sheets of metal you have at your shop? Is it possible they're using something different? And what are the odds that something could get in there, penetrate a case, then puncture a pouch? The belly pan filling up with water and floating a screw up in there is a stretch for even my imagination XD
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Sam, this is an example of what raw cells look like, I can understand why someone who has not worked with them would think they are protected.
(https://i.imgur.com/fbtjqDX.jpg)
In the below photo you see the other side ... omg ... It's not the same ... AND it's weak like a Capri sun drink bag. This is what I like to refer to as the bomb side of the cell.
(https://i.imgur.com/qSm6P9W.jpg)
Here you can see the cells unstacked. There is a small notch at the top which allows them to sort of stay together, kind of, on one side.
(https://i.imgur.com/PjntcEW.jpg)
Here, you can see the plastic "protector" <- what you called it. You can see that it does not offer protection. you can also see in the videos we posted how this part is already experiencing severe chaffing from the carbon fiber tank at the top. Feel free to stop and look frame by frame. As much as I enjoy spending my time defending my assertions, I also love it when people use the info provided to do their own due diligence.
(https://i.imgur.com/wo5pmh7.jpg)
And here, I bent the plastic to show you that it breaks quite easily. This is not a protector, it is a "holder" it holds the cell in place with the other cells, it DOES NOT OFFER PROTECTION. I will show the cells below as well.
(https://i.imgur.com/cP4KTta.jpg)
This is the capri sun like pouch
(https://i.imgur.com/JCCykxw.jpg)
Here is the crazy thin slot holder, I bend it with one hand to show its lack of protective power.
(https://i.imgur.com/KsgITB2.jpg)
Have another look from a different angle
(https://i.imgur.com/jqOQVgP.jpg)
Now, please take note of the copper at the top of the battery, this is where the busbars meet the cell tabs. That is protected by a thin sheet of paper-like material in the lightning. It's absurdly dangerous. Not to mention, not waterproof and not protected from fog or salty air.
This is why Zero recalled their 2012 batteries, the cells were protected physically from impact (which lightning is not, other than on the sides) the lightning is EVEN MORE EXPOSED than the 2012 Zero cells. And we all saw what happened over time with those cells, WHICH WERE IN A PROTECTIVE BATTERY BOX.
sooo yeah. in its current state, the bike is a BOMB. It will kill someone or some family given time. If the company would just stop trying to refute my clear and accurate statements, they might be able to apologize for the mistake, say they have learned, and promise to fix the issues. That's all they needed to do. I have since been told that the CEO, Richard Hatfield, has communicated with members of the media and told them that their batteries are protected and that is the heatsink I claim as cells. It is a bold face lie, which I don't understand. It puts them in between a rock and hard place. Now if they later admit to the issues, they end up showing everyone they were lying. It is a poor decision on their side to make choices like that. It says in the manual that if you wash the bike at one of those self car wash places you will void your warranty... really?
Another example of this sort of behavior is Hatfield publicly saying that passenger pegs are optional for all bikes if the customer wanted. Then... in the manual, it says you may not have a passenger on the bike under any circumstances. These sorts of clear contradictions can easily be found from lightning. It really is not hard to find questionable behavior and statements from them if you look.
Btw... the whole passenger area is made from bent sheet metal, so really, don't put a passenger on it ;)
I hope this helps clear stuff up. Please let's all ask lightning to fix the issues, and if something sounds odd, or shady, just ask for very clear concise answers without vague claims.
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Also, incase anyone wants to see my original reviews with the bike IN MY HANDS, and BETWEEN MY LEGS, have a look at this playlist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrgZNJ9dcmQ
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The Zero cells were not recalled because they weren't protected enough. They had other faults in their design.
Battery cells have had many additional steps added to keep them from failing since 2012 - and if the top of a bike is impaled, the rider is not going to be there.
Even Black and Decker is going to be putting out tools with the battery technology the Army uses to make Li-ion batteries that don't fail when impaled or shot up. This is not a new thing.
-Crissa
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Hi Crissa,
I respectfully disagree and have shown my evidence.
I appreciate and respect your feedback, even if we don't agree.
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I think it's reasonable to disagree... But saying that it's a bomb is completely unreasonable fearmongering.
Like my spouse says, "If the tank is impaled from the top, where's your body, Manning? Where's your body?"
-Crissa
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I respectfully maintain that your impaled body will be charring from the battery explosion while passersby watch your mutilated impaled corpse barbeque.
Regardless of the location of your body, the bike will still explode. Where your body is in a crash is wholly unrelated to the safety of the bike.
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(image of Star Wars scene where something had just exploded)
Moderator comment: Some kind of unnecessary meme image. The gore is a bit over the top and not appropriate.
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a) It will not explode. Cells do burn, but they don't actually explode.
b) If you're impaled through the top of your bike, you've got bigger problems and would probably not survive on an ICE bike either.
Exaggerating is dishonest.
-Crissa
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a) It will not explode. Cells do burn, but they don't actually explode.
Be sure to explain that here (https://electrek.co/2019/08/10/tesla-model-s-explodes-crash-truck-autopilot/) and here (https://electrek.co/2019/07/27/hyundai-kona-ev-explodes-garage-blowing-door-off/) and countless other places.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I feel like the potential for a puncture or physical damage to one of those cells is pretty low. There are enough braces on the sides, and covers on the top to prevent that kind of thing from happening. I don't think the pan filling up with metal shards is something you'd have to worry about.
The water vapor ingress thing is a valid concern though. I'm with ya there. HOWEVER... Energicas would have the same issue. Unless the pack is sealed up and potted like Zero, there's always a risk of water getting in there and killing things. The difference is that if one of the Lightning cells starts to fail, it's easier to swap ;D
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None of those were explosions, Don. No one ever said the media didn't like to exaggerate for clicks.
-Crissa
PS: Notice in the second link, the tires have failed. That would have been a bigger explosion than the battery pack! Also it was in a garage, an enclosed space probably with other flammable liquids in sealed containers.
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2p on battery design:
These pouch-style batteries are fundamentally different from the ones that are employed by Tesla and car EVs; they use the same basic design as the considerably less stable and safe batteries found in mobile phones. These batteries do spontaneously catch fire and they do explode. They are hugely more fragile than the cylinder style 18650 types found in cars.
Tesla are using massively reinforced battery packs with 18650-style cylinders and a less energy dense chemistry than the pouch batteries specifically because of safety concerns. They will explode. Just because they have not exploded once does not mean that on balance they are safe. They are not.
I believe Energica have opted to take the risk of using pouch batteries because the energy density is just that much higher than the 18650, and if there's one thing hurting electric motorcycle take up right now, it's range and weight. It's a stopgap until a safer chemistry comes along for the same energy density. But notice that Energica have wisely encased the lot in a lump of solid metal.
No-one in their right mind who knows anything about batteries would ride the Lightning with unprotected pouch batteries. There's more to it than "well, it didn't explode last time I rode it".
Consider all these factors:
1. What happens when you crash it? (Very high risk of extraordinarily fierce fire that cannot be put out with conventional (red) extinguishers most people have to hand)
2. What happens when you crash it in the wet? (As well as the risk of fire, there is a severe risk of a very high voltage short which poses extreme risk to the rider if they remain on the bike when it's crashing, or if they try to pick it up again, or to anyone in the emergency services that attempts to pick it up - see MotoE insulated shepherds' crooks if you don't believe this)
3. What happens when one of the pouches begins to expand as it fills with hydrogen gas, as they frequently do in other applications with this design? (Hint: it involves hydrogen gas under high pressure, shorting, and what happens when you mix hydrogen gas, air, and electric sparks)
4. What happens when you're washing salty road grime off with a sponge?
5. What happens after a relatively minor spill which you forget about for a few days?
Cas :)
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Energicas would have the same issue.
Perhaps more-so in the 21.5 KWH battery, as the battery is made lighter with more cells that weight the same compared with the older battery.
But I doubt if any EV explodes more often than ICE vehicles, but I think we hear more about the EVs. IMO, by the odds, it's not worth worrying about.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Ok if we set aside the safety issue for just a moment (it's always there but lets dig deeper). Is that going to be the long term setup for the 10kWh bikes? If not why waste money on those (temporary) cells if they want to use 2170s?
They say they are going to use 2170 cells for the 20kWh battery right? So based on the specs on those cells can they even be arranged in series to get a high enough voltage for CCS charging and in parallel to get a full 20kWh pack in that space?
You guys would have to do the electric math on that one, but when looking for answers we can eliminate the physically impossible.
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Here's my guess..
Unlike Zero when they unveiled the SR/S, Lightning didn't have hundreds of Strikes ready. They probably wanted to build interest and capital (pre-orders) to build more.. but for a company so small, it takes time.
People got impatient, then there were supply chain delays and that turned into restless negativity. People started saying the company was a scam. The guy from South Africa was similar. Too impatient so he pulled out and called them a scam. Other LS218 owners admitted it took close to 2 years to get their bikes, but they did get their bikes.
So in response to the negativity, Lightning (probably?) offered the first owner a chance to get a bike with a temporary battery.. to get him riding and to show people that they were capable of delivering bikes, albeit not the final products.
Now we're waiting to see how the new battery upgrades go. I wouldn't call it a scam, or vaporware, or a company built on lies lol. It's just taking them longer than some people want to wait. I had to wait close to a year for a test ride, but now that I've ridden one, I can't feel the same about any other bike.
So I will wait ;D
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Indeed, what you end up with in your garage is what we're all waiting to find out :)
Cas :)
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I wouldn't say people got impatient, rather like Zero with the SR/F and H-D with the Livewire, Lightning indicated bikes would be delivered much earlier than they have been. It seems to me people put their deposits down with the good faith that the manufacturer would deliver on their indicated (I'm hesitant to use the word promised) delivery dates but when they failed, folks started looking for reasons why. Although not the most informative, at least Zero, H-D, and even Energica with the new 21kw battery bikes provided reasons for the delays and revised delivery estimates. That's something that seems to be missing from Lightning. A lot of initial press when the Strikes were announced but not a lot of follow-up information to explain the delays and set new delivery estimates.
As much as I would love to see Strikes on the road, with the performance advertised and at the price points advertised, from the outside looking in it doesn't give me much hope that they'll produce anything other than a small number of specialty builds. That's the other thing that bothers me about Lightning. They seem to use the term "Production" very loosely in their marketing materials when from all appearances they're much closer to a Curtiss Motorcycles or any other number of boutique companies instead of a true high volume manufacturer that most folks thing of when using the term "Production".
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The South African case didn't seem to indicate any missed deadlines, but pure impatience on the part of the dealer who seemed to want preferential treatment.
Lightning is way behind on their production promises, but so far they do seem to be trying to keep them. I wonder how they're keeping the lights on?
-Crissa
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It's going to be a lot tougher to keep the lights on when you think about all the rework that is going to be done on these bikes and what that will do to Lightnings profit margin on these bikes. Losing money on each bike is not a good business model. I had one of the first Zero's on order, after a lot of multi-month delays I canceled my order. Zero survived that. Lightning will survive a few customers canceling their orders because of delays. But they may not survive a bad reputation that results from shipping bikes that are not at the specs promised. I for one can not imagine riding an electric motorcycle with no state of charge indicator. But the worst part of it is that it isn't just potential customers that may be scared away but potential dealers. I talked with a friend at my Zero/Energica dealer this past weekend. They wanted to be a dealer for Lightning as well but Richard ignored emails and phone calls from them. They are one of only two motorcycle dealers that sell both Zero and Energica in the country (AF1 Racing is the other) and on the east coast close to I-40 and I-85, perfect location. If Richard thinks he can just sell direct he should remember that Zero tried that and it didn't work very well. Some of us aren't willing to fly cross country to take a Strike for a test ride. I guess time will tell.
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I had pre-ordered a Brammo Empulse, along with about 1000 other people when the bike was first announced in 2010. But then they decided to delay selling the bike for a year or so while they developed it to accommodate a 6-speed transmission. When I heard that news, I and a lot of other people, gave up and bought Zeros, or just plain gave up on electric motorcycles, I believe. I still have photos of the prototype direct-drive Empulse being displayed at Scudera West in San Fransisco. Attached is a photo of that bike taken at the shop. Brammo Brian, who now works for Zero, was one of the people discussing the Empulse that day.
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The decision to add gearing to electric vehicles is ... mystifying.
Cas :)
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Well I've seen this video come up on YT but never watched it. It's based on the LS218 and was uploaded in 2016. Of course feel free to watch the whole thing but the 3:30 mark shows pretty clearly that they were using the same (or almost same) battery cells from the Strike to make their older 20kWh battery for the LS218.
Maybe that's why they used them in the Strike, they still had some around the shop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmC2HCc5IzE
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^ Yep, that's my thinking too. I hope owners are given an ETA for battery upgrades soon though. The lack of communication is what bugs people the most.
And man that Empulse concept looked so much better than what they actually sold!
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^ Yep, that's my thinking too. I hope owners are given an ETA for battery upgrades soon though. The lack of communication is what bugs people the most.
And man that Empulse concept looked so much better than what they actually sold!
Since you liked that, as did I, here are some more photos that I took in February 2010. Here is a picture of the rear end.
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And one of the left side and what looks like some soft luggage.
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And finally, a photo of the motor housing and the battery.
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The South African case didn't seem to indicate any missed deadlines, but pure impatience on the part of the dealer who seemed to want preferential treatment.
Not quite.
Granted, the only source of info on that case is the dealer's long post on Facebook; AFAICS there's been no Lightning public reaction, nor have any of the various writers/bloggers who've mentioned the case contacted either Lightning or the dealer for further details (if they did, they didn't write about it).
The one-sidedness granted, the dealer most certainly complains about:
A missed deadline to deliver the bike, further violations of their contract, then additional violations of agreements to resolve their issue, and eventually, a refusal to either refund the full payment for an LS-218 @ US$40K or deliver it.
He also complained about physical threats by Hatfied that required police intervention (which I would think crazy, except that there's a public YouTube video of Hatfield cursing and threatening Brandon Miller as well).
https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10219987769068102&id=1339250492 (https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10219987769068102&id=1339250492)
Lightning is way behind on their production promises, but so far they do seem to be trying to keep them.
This story doesn't give that impression.
Frankly, neither does the fact that after multiple revisions of the Lightning web pages, the relative specs of the 3 models still make no sense content-wise.
I wonder how they're keeping the lights on?
Excellent question, I've also been wondering, and have yet to find recent investment reports. Investment arms of public corporations would have to publicize investment.
Previous reported investments were too little too far in the past to go into series production.
While there may be legal requirement for private VCs or angel investors to publicize anything, in practice there's every reason for them to do so given Lightning isn't in stealth mode. Ditto for Lightning itself.
So, either they're selling enough to cover expenses (unlikely), or doing consulting work.
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Well I've seen this video come up on YT but never watched it. It's based on the LS218 and was uploaded in 2016. Of course feel free to watch the whole thing but the 3:30 mark shows pretty clearly that they were using the same (or almost same) battery cells from the Strike to make their older 20kWh battery for the LS218.
Maybe that's why they used them in the Strike, they still had some around the shop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmC2HCc5IzE
Great find! I had seen that video before and I remember that scene, but it just clicked that literally that's what's going into these bikes without any sort of protective case. This is proof. Undeniably similar cell housings.