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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on March 24, 2020, 03:36:30 AM
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Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P). It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus. I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!
With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac. I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds. So that's what I did. I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power. I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.
The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock. I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount. The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike. I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat. Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles.
I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario. The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway. I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied. It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads. My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.
I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range. Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag. After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range? We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.
I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers. Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking. An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs. I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those. Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.
Time is also a consideration. If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management. That would also affect any charging that was attempted.
A lot of this is academic though. Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads. They are very well engineered to do that. After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.
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I'd be happy with just "ordinary razzing around" figures, nobody ever rides flat out everywhere normally. Fundamentally until they get super slippery fairing designs it'll all be much of a muchness anyway, they're all within a couple of % efficiency of each other so it'll just end up coming down to battery size = range and that seems to average out at being about 7 miles per nominal kWh.
Cas :)
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I'm also from Hertfordshire, small world. I decided to give my 7.2 DS a bit of a hammering today to see how quickly I could get it to drain by hopping on the dual carriageway and pinning it at the 86mph limiter. I usually stick to 30-40mph roads with the odd short stint at 50-60mph and the range estimate on my dash is typically 65-70 miles depending on how enthusiastic I'm being. Today I managed to drop it from 100% to 65% and had an estimated range left of 29 miles so that comes out to a total range of about 44 miles, actually a little less as the first 6-7% wasn't as high speed. I was expecting it to be even less than that, the SoC certainly dropped much quicker than I was used to but then I was also covering distance much more quickly.
I should probably start keeping track of my odometer and how far I'm actually going to see if the range estimate is accurate.
How come your 2014 is a 14.4? Battery replacement or is that with a power tank?
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Do you have any data for what speeds you achieved?
edit- also well fucking done. Really entertaining and you are dead-on correct on most of your assumptions.
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Bravo, You did a great job writing this up, and I can confirm you are correct about most of your extrapolations.
There is one caveat, track days, provided you stop at 30% SOC remaining, you can do 4-5 in a day.
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At 30% remaining, mine starts capping freeway speed excessively.
-Crissa
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I'd be happy with just "ordinary razzing around" figures, nobody ever rides flat out everywhere normally. Fundamentally until they get super slippery fairing designs it'll all be much of a muchness anyway, they're all within a couple of % efficiency of each other so it'll just end up coming down to battery size = range and that seems to average out at being about 7 miles per nominal kWh.
Cas :)
I can help there too.
Ordinary razzing around, i.e. lots of fun without being a total hooligan and ignoring speed limits everywhere will allow about 60 miles of hooning. That's maximum fun without unnecessary risks and being totally irresponsible.
Going for a reasonably relaxed pootle will see more like 80 miles of range or more, depending on conditions.
I haven't tried this yet, but I would guess that 100 miles is possible using Eco mode and keeping below 60 on the faster portions. I ride in custom mode with max power and torque. No regen on closed throttle and max regen when I apply the brakes. I believe it to be the most economical as conserving momentum is usually better than using regen. I guess limiting torque and max speed would help here in custom mode, but I prefer to just be gentle with the throttle and still have the maximums available to me.
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I'm also from Hertfordshire, small world. I decided to give my 7.2 DS a bit of a hammering today to see how quickly I could get it to drain by hopping on the dual carriageway and pinning it at the 86mph limiter. I usually stick to 30-40mph roads with the odd short stint at 50-60mph and the range estimate on my dash is typically 65-70 miles depending on how enthusiastic I'm being. Today I managed to drop it from 100% to 65% and had an estimated range left of 29 miles so that comes out to a total range of about 44 miles, actually a little less as the first 6-7% wasn't as high speed. I was expecting it to be even less than that, the SoC certainly dropped much quicker than I was used to but then I was also covering distance much more quickly.
I should probably start keeping track of my odometer and how far I'm actually going to see if the range estimate is accurate.
How come your 2014 is a 14.4? Battery replacement or is that with a power tank?
Oh, wow! A local Zero rider? Or should I say unicorn? [emoji23]. Drop me a private message if you fancy a rideout sometime. I'd be happy to take you on my Herts TT route. [emoji4]
You seem to be getting good range out of your 7.2 DS. I guess the reduced weight helps a lot.
The original 11.4 battery was replaced just over a year ago with the 14.4 unit. It's a very welcome upgrade!
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Do you have any data for what speeds you achieved?
edit- also well fucking done. Really entertaining and you are dead-on correct on most of your assumptions.
High 80's, low 90's on the straights. It's a very mixed route with lots of twisties, hard breaking and full throttle.
Thanks for your comments Morgan, much appreciated and I'm glad you found it an enjoyable read. :-)
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Bravo, You did a great job writing this up, and I can confirm you are correct about most of your extrapolations.
There is one caveat, track days, provided you stop at 30% SOC remaining, you can do 4-5 in a day.
Thanks very much Brandon!
I was very much guessing about track days, so it's great to hear from someone with experience. [emoji106]
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At 30% remaining, mine starts capping freeway speed excessively.
-Crissa
Which battery pack have you got Crissa? I've found that the ZF14.4 is much better at providing a decent amount of power right down to low SoC numbers. Below 30% SoC my ZF11.4 pack was similar to your experience, especially when the temperature dropped to 5C or below.
I also find the new pack will let me ride down to 3% SoC and not start limiting me to 30mph or just die. I haven't run it below that yet. With the 11.4 it was a gamble when I reached 10% SoC or below. Winter made it worse.
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Wait, you have a DS (assumed: police edition, but not the larger "R" controller or motor) AND the ZF14.4 pack and only got 41 miles on a full charge?? How cold was it? Even after
"goosing it" all day on the highway on a cold day with no windscreen my minimum range on a 2016 SR was 70 miles. Now with the windscreen I can't seem to get less than 80 I think. I swear I thought these would overheat and slow down before they let you get less than 60 miles wide open throttle..
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Wait, you have a DS (assumed: police edition, but not the larger "R" controller or motor) AND the ZF14.4 pack and only got 41 miles on a full charge?? How cold was it? Even after
"goosing it" all day on the highway on a cold day with no windscreen my minimum range on a 2016 SR was 70 miles. Now with the windscreen I can't seem to get less than 80 I think. I swear I thought these would overheat and slow down before they let you get less than 60 miles wide open throttle..
You're correct talon, it's effectively a standard DS with crash bars.
Good question about the temperature. I've used the 'Time Machine' feature on my weather app which tells me it was 5C. My bike was charged at the end of a ride two days before when the battery temperature was at 31C. I think it’s safe to say that the battery temp was no more than 6C when I started my ride, although I didn’t check it.
Am I right in thinking that the 2016 SR has the new IPM motor? That would help explain the motor not overheating. If somebody could confirm that, I’d be grateful.
What kind of speed were you able to maintain on the highway with WOT? Even with the IPM motor, I'd be very surprised if you could keep 95mph up for long. I think the controller(inverter) would be the limiting component in your scenario, if the motor wasn't overheating.
Other factors that could explain the difference:
Your size, weight and the riding gear you wear.
The SR has a lower profile; I think it may be a little lower and it encourages the rider to lean forward, thus presenting less to the wind.
The SR has normal road tyres, so there's much less rolling resistance.
However, your bike has the ZF13 battery, so less juice onboard...
You've inspired me to do a motorway run. Let's see if I can escape the household!
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Ride safe! I was not WOT on the highway run but I could tell the bike did not want to give me much more even after the battery warmed up further. Heavy loads and high charging rates are bad for cold batteries so make sure yours is warm enough before WOT. I believe I was around the same temperature and did not tuck at all.
Unfortunately where I live anything over 80MPH is the highest level of misdemeanor and I can't risk that, especially at this time.
I don't know how bad the pre-IPM motors were, but I can still easily overheat the 2016 SR IPM motor in <0C ambient just from accelerations after a couple corners. I am aching to do another highway range test but the only charging stations I have are dealerships and I refuse to use them anymore. Long story short, if you call ahead to ask for permission on a public charger--get a name or a manager to double check.
If you have a spare android, you should get the Metrics for Zero app and record a log of the entire ride to watch voltage drop and temperatures. I'm curious what the limits are for your bike! I just wish that it showed battery temperature as well :( Record starting and ending battery temperatures as recorded by ZeroVoltage or the official Zero app (I am a huge data and physics nerd).
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Which battery pack have you got Crissa?
8.5
With the 11.4 it was a gamble when I reached 10% SoC or below. Winter made it worse.
Only if I try going up my street, which hits 10+% grade on the way up. Otherwise it's fine.
-Crissa
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The SR has a lower profile; I think it may be a little lower and it encourages the rider to lean forward, thus presenting less to the wind.
The SR has normal road tyres, so there's much less rolling resistance.
However, your bike has the ZF13 battery, so less juice onboard...
You've inspired me to do a motorway run. Let's see if I can escape the household!
You're getting caught up in minutia. The SR also has wider bodywork. The fact that you're pinning the throttle is the most important factor in the range numbers you saw. Unless people specifically pin the throttle it's not even worth the discussion.
"Did you pin the throttle?"
"Well no, but I feel I was going quite very fast indeed"
"What speeds?"
"Oh quite fast for an indeterminate portion of the ride"
This is why my favorite useless phrase is "spirited riding". It's has no meaning. Get on an exceptionally twisty road and you're often doing 30-40 but it feels fast. Spirited, even. But oh hey look now I went 90 miles!
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The SR has a lower profile; I think it may be a little lower and it encourages the rider to lean forward, thus presenting less to the wind.
The SR has normal road tyres, so there's much less rolling resistance.
However, your bike has the ZF13 battery, so less juice onboard...
You've inspired me to do a motorway run. Let's see if I can escape the household!
You're getting caught up in minutia. The SR also has wider bodywork. The fact that you're pinning the throttle is the most important factor in the range numbers you saw. Unless people specifically pin the throttle it's not even worth the discussion.
"Did you pin the throttle?"
"Well no, but I feel I was going quite very fast indeed"
"What speeds?"
"Oh quite fast for an indeterminate portion of the ride"
This is why my favorite useless phrase is "spirited riding". It's has no meaning. Get on an exceptionally twisty road and you're often doing 30-40 but it feels fast. Spirited, even. But oh hey look now I went 90 miles!
That's hilarious Morgan! I've been guilty of using the term 'spirited riding' on numerous occasions. You're right though, it is completely meaningless... Oops.
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I managed to escape! My wife was pretty pissed off but seemed to have recovered by the time I got back. If I'm not allowed some freedom, this Coronavirus will kill my marriage!
Here are the highlights...
Ride duration: 50 minutes.
Ending SoC: 6%
Miles ridden: 43.2 (is that the same as the last run? If so, WTF!)
I'm not getting nagged for having a poo, so I'll do a pepper write-up later. For those of you who love the numbers, I've pulled the logs and will post them here in good time.
Now, let me see if we have any toilet paper...
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Are the tanks different sizes between the newer SR and DS?
Because the parts I have (2013+) are all the same size.
-Crissa
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Tank plastics on the DS line are narrower. Helps the bike look taller. Plastics on the S line are wider. Helps give the bike some substance visually.
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Let us agree to define "spirited riding" as "that which would attract the attention of Plod".
Cas :)
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I maintain it's whatever feels fast at the time. It could be 40mph and feel fast because it's full of tight corners. Why is why CA Hwy 9 is so wonderful for EV bikes.
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I maintain it's whatever feels fast at the time. It could be 40mph and feel fast because it's full of tight corners. Why is why CA Hwy 9 is so wonderful for EV bikes.
I'm with Morgan here, even though I've used the term many times myself without really thinking about it. From his earlier post onwards it's banned from my vocabulary, at least when talking about range.
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Let us agree to define "spirited riding" as "that which would attract the attention of Plod".
Cas :)
That's a good definition, as long as we don't use it in relation to range. It's still quite vague though.
How's about this for a scale (also no relation to energy economy stats):
1. Hypermiling
2. Pootling
3. Spirited riding
4. Hooning
5. Psycho mode (absolutely no regard for the safety of others, or indeed oneself. Often encouraged by heavy drinking or drugs).
My next job is to get the laptop out and parse my logs. We've got at least one number nut following this thread! [emoji4]
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Range in psycho mode can often be as little as 200 yards...
Cas :)
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No, not really.
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Range in psycho mode can often be as little as 200 yards...
Cas :)
Are you thinking of the one above psycho mode?
Suicide mode! [emoji12]
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I managed to do pootle run today. No rush, observing all speed limits, keeping the speed down on motorways to around 65 and so on. There were a few overtakes and full throttle moments, but generally the ride was at a relaxed pace.
Somehow, completely unplanned, I managed to get home with 6% SoC. Third time in a row! This time my mileage was about 50% greater at 67.1 on the display. I'd make that 65 true miles based on my experience. I'm a little disappointed with that to be honest. I did notice that when I unplugged the charging cable the SoC dropped from 100 to 97%. Perhaps it hadn't finished charging fully? (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200325/2260b5bf597f5df609eeee8f3bbf2b6d.jpg)
If so, I wish it would just be honest about it on the dash. 114v seems a little low too.
I'll need to conduct another test for this type of run. I should also check the tyre pressures. They don't lose much, so I've been a bit lax of late...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200325/d3355a5c759099bfe46e8b173138d038.jpg)
Curiously, the SoC dropped to 5% shortly after taking this photo, even though the bike was parked. That's different from the first run when it jumped to 8% even while I was just parking the bike.
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Unfortunately I don't trust the the SoC indicator. While mine has seemed fairly accurate for the most part, it has randomly dropped from 10% to 0% before on a day full of riding with many partial charges/discharges (including regen) and completely locked me out from operating the bike. I'm guessing it changed accounting methods and recalibrated. Rested voltages are the only way to know. 6% means to me "anywhere from 0% to 15%", I'd prefer if the dash didn't show a percentage and just kept the battery gauge icon and showed voltage directly (electric cowboy modded this in via CAN only while charging for my CCU and live to someone's bike).
I've been meaning to finish my program to analyze logs and come up with a more accurate SoC to voltage look-up table that takes into account temperature and cell degradation, but I got swamped at work and I always feel like I'm reinventing the wheel when this has been done so many times.
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Yes, the SoC indicator can be a bit hit and miss. I've had much more confidence in going below 10 SoC since the new ZF14.4 battery was fitted though.
Voltage would be very helpful on the main display.
Good luck with finding time to write your program. Out of interest, what language would you write it in?
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> I've been meaning to finish my program to analyze logs and come up with a more accurate SoC to voltage look-up table that takes into account temperature and cell degradation, but I got swamped at work and I always feel like I'm reinventing the wheel when this has been done so many times.
I don't know if anyone has done it rigorously and released the results.
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The one time I had a ride on an Energica, it read 60% SOC in the showroom, only to plummet to 0% and conk out exactly 1 mile from the shop. Seems that voltage measurement isn't entirely reliable technology yet. Maybe it depends on having a lot more cells in parallel to get a better sample.
Cas :)
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I figured a data-driven model might be helpful. There's so much I wanted to do with it, including what Teslanomics did for releasing their analysis of how certain models of Tesla batteries were holding up over time. It would be so cool to interface with Hassler's page and scrape anonymous data (with users' consent) and see how Zeros across the board are doing. Start showing trends. (surely Zero has something like this on their support mail, aside from a decoder)
I did a small example long ago in Java for [my] ease in porting to Android. I thought it would be cool to be able to visualize logs right on the device that pulls them from the bike. I also wanted to look into doing it from the ground up in Python. It's been many years since I put on my programming hat, and everything is so easy now I feel like there is always an easier way than what I am doing.
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Aha... I'm a Java programmer as it happens (https://www.puppygames.net) ... been coding for 40 years now.
Cas :)
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The one time I had a ride on an Energica, it read 60% SOC in the showroom, only to plummet to 0% and conk out exactly 1 mile from the shop. Seems that voltage measurement isn't entirely reliable technology yet.
Really? What voltage was the bike reading?
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Didn't check that at the time as it has a "remaining range" reading which read "60 miles".
Cas :)
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So how are you blaming the voltage for being inaccurate? The range estimates are based off the last 10 miles. If someone drove around at 10 miles an hour, for whatever goddamn reason, for an entire hour it would show a ridiculous range which will quickly wear off as soon as the bike sees highway speeds. I'm guessing you also didn't look at the SoC.
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He said it also had a 60% SoC though, no way that should be dropping to 0% in just a mile of riding.
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At first he said 60% SoC and blamed the voltage for being unreliable. Then he said 60 miles and said he had no idea what the voltage was. I am merely clarifying.
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I figured a data-driven model might be helpful. There's so much I wanted to do with it, including what Teslanomics did for releasing their analysis of how certain models of Tesla batteries were holding up over time. It would be so cool to interface with Hassler's page and scrape anonymous data (with users' consent) and see how Zeros across the board are doing. Start showing trends. (surely Zero has something like this on their support mail, aside from a decoder)
I did a small example long ago in Java for [my] ease in porting to Android. I thought it would be cool to be able to visualize logs right on the device that pulls them from the bike. I also wanted to look into doing it from the ground up in Python. It's been many years since I put on my programming hat, and everything is so easy now I feel like there is always an easier way than what I am doing.
Absolutely
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Sorry - I actually meant it had 60% SOC displayed - which the dealer said equated to about 60 miles. Don't know the voltage (and frankly don't care).
Cas :)
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Sorry - I actually meant it had 60% SOC displayed - which the dealer said equated to about 60 miles. Don't know the voltage (and frankly don't care).
Cas :)
Did the dealer mention how long it had been sat in the shop for? I'm guessing that it hadn't been ridden for a long time, along with you discovering a bug in the software. Do Energicas drain their batteries when parked? My Zero is excellent at holding its charge for months and only dropping a couple of percent. However, I always fully charge it before riding after a stagnant period.
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We pieced together what had happened back at the showroom. The trip meter on the bike read, very suspicously, 108 miles. It turned out it had been taken out for a long demo ride, then left with no charge in for some time and not plugged in (may have been for weeks). Somehow when switched back on, the system reckoned it had 60% SOC based on the voltage reading. It looks like the battery voltage must "collect" for a while while it's idle, resulting in a small surge of power for a little while, fooling the calculation. Were I an Energica engineer at this point I'd be thinking, it should probably maybe also take the last trip duration since charging into account to limit its estimates - in this case such a formula would have yielded a 0% SOC as there's no way it could have done 108 miles without draining pretty much the entire battery.
If the bike weren't unfortunately so bloody heavy (which is what you discover when you have to get it out of the main road in a hurry when it conks out...) that would have cost them the sale... but yeah it is too heavy, I could barely move it.
Cas :)
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If the bike weren't unfortunately so bloody heavy (which is what you discover when you have to get it out of the main road in a hurry when it conks out...) that would have cost them the sale... but yeah it is too heavy, I could barely move it.
Cas :)
Interesting, Cas.
I’m a little confused by your last paragraph. Did the weight of the bike cost them the sale?
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Chances are I wouldn't have thought too much about the weight if it hadn't conked out, but as it is, the bike doing the exact one thing that everyone is paranoid about electric vehicles doing on its test ride was enough to make me decide "no". The SR/F was far easier to haul about, but if that had broken down in the same manner it would also be getting a "no". As it is I'm just far too poor to afford the SR/F anyway :P Still saving pennies, searching down back of sofa, etc
Cas :)
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Chances are I wouldn't have thought too much about the weight if it hadn't conked out, but as it is, the bike doing the exact one thing that everyone is paranoid about electric vehicles doing on its test ride was enough to make me decide "no". The SR/F was far easier to haul about, but if that had broken down in the same manner it would also be getting a "no". As it is I'm just far too poor to afford the SR/F anyway :P Still saving pennies, searching down back of sofa, etc
Cas :)
Have you got your eye on any of the older Zero models? They're all a lot of fun and there may be some deals to be had.
Providing the battery pack is healthy, I've had no trouble with getting caught out on my 2014DS. Things have improved considerably with regards to reliability since 2013 when it was manufactured.
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The FX has my close attention for its simplicity. It's got just enough range to get me to work too. I'm looking out for a secondhand one though, not going to splash £10k on a toy/commuter.
Cas :)
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The FX has my close attention for its simplicity. It's got just enough range to get me to work too. I'm looking out for a secondhand one though, not going to splash £10k on a toy/commuter.
Cas :)
I saw this on ADVRider today, but shipping may be exorbitant.
https://advrider.com/f/threads/ca-2018-zero-fx-7-2-7500.1436337/ (https://advrider.com/f/threads/ca-2018-zero-fx-7-2-7500.1436337/)
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Yeah, I'm just going to have to wait until one turns up in Somerset.
Might be a few for sale soon now we're not allowed out to ride them any more...
Cas :)
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I gotta say, they make a really good vehicle during disasters and quarantines. Being able to charge at home is very convenient.
-Crissa
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That has been going through my mind a lot in the last couple of weeks.
Cas :)
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Going back to the original topic, we had some warmer weather the other day and I didn't start my ride until the afternoon. The battery temp was reporting 17C and voltage was 115.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/01e3a7e3a52052aa514572239b369d9a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/62e32a754c2712134e7b205bed31293a.jpg)
My mission was to ride to a local brewery and pick up some nice fresh ale. That meant I had an extra 11kg onboard for the return journey. I delivered 12 pints of beer to my neighbours and drank the rest myself.
The journey was mostly back roads. I took it steady, but didn't dawdle either. I was rather impressed with the results:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/18524c803be3ce51531bbe369ac0267f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/a6a416bdcef1b8f2142aa24dff6e5c56.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/b52ff91793b1b7c7338a78074be0c773.jpg)
I definitely took it easy on the way home, which is reflected in the final battery temperature. Covering 45 miles and using only 44% of the charge suggests I could have done the trip twice with plenty to spare! On that day, with a similar riding style... I don't recall ever having such good range from my bike.
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Fast forward to yesterday and the weather was very different. Close to freezing most of the day and a strong wind. I plotted a 71 mile route, feeling confident the bike would manage. Oops...
Ambient temperature was around 7C. The bike had been charged to full a couple of days before. I didn't record the starting temp of the battery pack, but it was probably below ambient because ambient had been a lot lower until the afternoon. I'd guess around 5C.
My outward journey was a lot quicker than the return...
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/078a0ae20d7293bff22833134f3ea240.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/bc324fa9ad94cc87ce01ba916e3d6863.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/3f56f8add6d816d238c9d9f0f00c00a8.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/4e1d135974a4a0dcdd00d24e0e2b4b82.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200330/23c6aae0e1ddd445f147074bc740ec45.jpg)
This is by far the lowest I've ever taken my new ZF14.4 battery pack and it behaved impeccably. The last 2-3 miles were ridden at 0% SoC.
For the last 30 miles I was constantly comparing SoC to the number of miles left to run on my Satnav. Not helped by missing a couple of turns and adding a few extra miles to the journey... When I got down to 5% SoC I switched the bike's display to show range. It's a feature I seldom use, but gave me some hope.
I may have been a bit blasé with my application of the throttle on the outward bound portion of my journey, but I sure as shit wasn't on the way home! It got to the point where I didn't dare go over 50mph, then 40 and the last three miles were more like 30mph. I was grateful to see the 30mph speed limit signs as I approached my home town!
I was really surprised that throughout all of this the bike didn't go into crawl mode. It's something I became all too familiar with as my old ZF11.4 battery was on its last legs. Power gets limited to something tiny (I forget, could be 2kW or less), which results in a top speed of 30mph on the flat. It takes a long time to get to 30 too. None of that with the new battery pack! :-)
I hope this is a good example of how much ambient temperature (on a windy day) can kill your range. I made the mistake of thinking I had at least 80 miles of range for a nice pootle in the countryside...
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Nice! I've noticed similarly-scaled results on my ZF13.0 with 220lb self, no windscreen. However, I start to enter "extreme" current limiting earlier than you (~15%; perhaps this isn't crawl mode but just limiting) and get 60-something miles in the cold at 70mph. On a warmer day I get 80 miles mixed speeds, or strictly follow the 70mi@70mph spec Zero had for my bike.
Since getting the cheap windscreen I get almost 100 miles at mixed speeds for Washington D.C. (40-70mph), with almost 80 miles at 70mph constant.
You ended the beer run at a fairly good temperature for range, especially with those cells. My current limiting doesn't start happening until around 5% when my cells are very hot, but again my 5% can "move" sometimes. I think the range and SoC are fairly accurate when you act predictably for the entire charge, but below 10% when temperature is changing and you are using a lot of regen it can randomly recalculate or change estimation modes and drop to 0% unexpectedly on higher IR batteries like mine, to include cutting out entirely. Watch that voltage!
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Man, I wish I could crawl home, the last mile to my house is a steep hill and low battery does not like it.
-Crissa
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Nice! I've noticed similarly-scaled results on my ZF13.0 with 220lb self, no windscreen. However, I start to enter "extreme" current limiting earlier than you (~15%; perhaps this isn't crawl mode but just limiting) and get 60-something miles in the cold at 70mph. On a warmer day I get 80 miles mixed speeds, or strictly follow the 70mi@70mph spec Zero had for my bike.
Since getting the cheap windscreen I get almost 100 miles at mixed speeds for Washington D.C. (40-70mph), with almost 80 miles at 70mph constant.
You ended the beer run at a fairly good temperature for range, especially with those cells. My current limiting doesn't start happening until around 5% when my cells are very hot, but again my 5% can "move" sometimes. I think the range and SoC are fairly accurate when you act predictably for the entire charge, but below 10% when temperature is changing and you are using a lot of regen it can randomly recalculate or change estimation modes and drop to 0% unexpectedly on higher IR batteries like mine, to include cutting out entirely. Watch that voltage!
Good points. What do you mean by "IR"? Internal Resistance? Do the cells in a ZF13 pack have higher internal resistance than those in a ZF14.4? It would certainly explain a lot of the behaviour you just mentioned. Interesting, thanks! [emoji4]
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Man, I wish I could crawl home, the last mile to my house is a steep hill and low battery does not like it.
-Crissa
What battery do you have again Crissa? I guess the crawl function doesn't give the motor enough juice to move your bike up the hill. It should help if you're pushing aswell?
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Maybe if I got off the bike before it panic shutdown, I dunno.
-Crissa
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Just to let you all know, I finally got round to processing the logs from my bike. Unfortunately they all failed with the Zero Log Parser utility. That's with three different batches of them. I've had success in the past, so maybe that was before a firmware update to my bike, or perhaps the utility itself has been updated.
I've kept the logs, just in case it starts working again. If anybody has the time, could you try parsing your own logs and let me know if it works for you please?
https://home.hasslers.net/zerologparser/log_parser.php
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It's been down for a while now, this alternative should work though:
https://zero-motorcycle-community.github.io/browser-parse/zero-log-parser.html
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Yes, the ZF14.4 most certainly has lower IR (internal resistance) throughout the SoC range. ZF13.0 will be affected by cold and hot temperatures more and cut off sooner at low SoC. For these reasons (and a likely lower-resolution current sensor), the older packs are even harder to determine SoC on so recalculations can be a bit more dramatic. I highly recommend just skimming the Unofficial Manual as it has never-ending information about these kinds of effects that can apply elsewhere in life.
Fun side note: While I'm not 100% sure, I'm pretty sure the higher IR of older packs means their IR will also increase faster meaning older packs should age slightly faster for the same loads.
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It's been down for a while now, this alternative should work though:
https://zero-motorcycle-community.github.io/browser-parse/zero-log-parser.html
Thanks. I've attached the logs for the fast runs. Let me know if you want the logs from any of the other runs.
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By the way, I converted the logs into a WordPad document to make them easier to read.
I noticed the log parser utility only works with one of the two log files that gets extracted. Is this normal?
Yesterday the weather was warmer (16-19C) and I managed a 31 mile run on 33% even with about 2 miles on a motorway! A lot of of the miles were done at very low speeds on single track country road and about two miles on a green lane.
I think a repeat of the route to Winslow on a warm day is in order. Would any of you be interested in the results of that, or would any of you like to see the logs from other runs?
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Of course I'd like to hear the results ^-^
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> I noticed the log parser utility only works with one of the two log files that gets extracted. Is this normal?
Not sure. There's also a python log parser on GitHub. Maybe it'll do better than the online one? Certainly is an easier one to submit bugs and patches against.
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> I noticed the log parser utility only works with one of the two log files that gets extracted. Is this normal?
Not sure. There's also a python log parser on GitHub. Maybe it'll do better than the online one? Certainly is an easier one to submit bugs and patches against.
Thanks Togo. I have used the python version, but not for a couple of years or so.
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Yesterday I managed to do a longer run again. I drained the battery to 0% SoC, which I ran on for at least the last 2-3 miles. The weather was much warmer than when I did my Winslow run; around 16-19C during the ride, versus about 7C the other day.
I started with this:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200412/620cb9f7e2c35f7b76a86f19e052d95a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200412/43c9fbe9948a056710916f5827e1a58b.jpg)
And ended with this:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200412/950a3300ebf13a28b83b6388130bb655.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200412/30db12b82efe735fd26b94957a77f604.jpg)
The Odometer read 84.4 miles, which I'll treat as 80 real miles. I forgot to take a photo but remembered a few hours later while it was charging:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200412/642598a6aaa635372705e785f230008f.jpg)
Also, some of you might be interested in the estimated time to charge a ZF14.4 from empty:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200412/4756dade081564d560a497bc71df3d4a.jpg)
I wasn't riding Miss Daisy on that run and I even managed to demonstrate a full throttle 0-60mph sprint to a fellow biker who took an interest.
So after all this testing, I feel comfortable claiming the following range figures for my bike with me on it:
Worst case (full throttle as much as possible): 40 miles either on the motorway or back roads.
Riding for pleasure on mixed roads with overtaking and having some fun: 75 miles.
Going steady: 80+ miles
Ambient temperature really does make a significant difference to range.
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I managed an 82 mile (Odometer reading) ride today with 11% SoC remaining when I got home. I planned a 79 mile route on the Sat Nav, made a couple of small mistakes and I think the true mileage would be around 80 miles. I'll attach some photos and the log for those that are interested. The majority of the ride was on back roads and with a lot of single track roads which really keep your speed down. I took it steady and backed off when I noticed my speed was over 70. Most of the ride was well under 60. The conditions were warm (17C roughly), dry and with very little wind. The hills in Hertfordshire are what you might call rolling. Certainly not mountainous.
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I managed an 82 mile (Odometer reading) ride today with 11% SoC remaining when I got home. I planned a 79 mile route on the Sat Nav, made a couple of small mistakes and I think the true mileage would be around 80 miles. I'll attach some photos and the log for those that are interested. The majority of the ride was on back roads and with a lot of single track roads which really keep your speed down. I took it steady and backed off when I noticed my speed was over 70. Most of the ride was well under 60. The conditions were warm (17C roughly), dry and with very little wind. The hills in Hertfordshire are what you might call rolling. Certainly not mountainous.
Some pics..
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200427/d838cd0e85cdbaf7b5e4418aa83699a3.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200427/c8385e6a4a827baa7e1e443987420bf9.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200427/3b49e9d26281b5f69e14b12b525fa926.jpg)
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When running for maximum range, it can be useful to use a custom mode with top speed limited to 60 MPH. Those segments at high speed really cut efficiency.
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Some pics..
That's motor temp, right?
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It should be, I think that's the only temp you can get displayed on the dash.
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Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P). It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus. I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!
With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac. I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds. So that's what I did. I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power. I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.
The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock. I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount. The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike. I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat. Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles.
I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario. The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway. I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied. It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads. My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.
I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range. Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag. After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range? We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.
I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers. Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking. An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs. I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those. Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.
Time is also a consideration. If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management. That would also affect any charging that was attempted.
A lot of this is academic though. Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads. They are very well engineered to do that. After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.
I just thought I'd mention that Bugatti Veyron empties its 100 liter fuel tank in 15 minutes when trashing it. So riding a Zero so hard it goes into thermal slowdown, and thinking that that is somehow "true range", does not make sense to me.
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Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P). It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus. I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!
With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac. I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds. So that's what I did. I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power. I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.
The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock. I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount. The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike. I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat. Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles.
I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario. The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway. I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied. It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads. My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.
I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range. Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag. After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range? We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.
I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers. Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking. An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs. I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those. Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.
Time is also a consideration. If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management. That would also affect any charging that was attempted.
A lot of this is academic though. Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads. They are very well engineered to do that. After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.
I just thought I'd mention that Bugatti Veyron empties its 100 liter fuel tank in 15 minutes when trashing it. So riding a Zero so hard it goes into thermal slowdown, and thinking that that is somehow "true range", does not make sense to me.
Perhaps knowing the range in the worst case scenario is just as pointless as knowing the best case scenario. Both are unobtainable under everyday riding conditions. Unfortunately manufacturers choose to quote the latter in all their marketing materials so it's nice to see the contrast.
Hopefully some of the other rides I've detailed in this thread are more useful to you and as such I don't think your comment was called for.
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Knowing how far you can got flat out on the freeway is helpful as a lower bound.
-Crissa
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Last night I had a rare opportunity to find out what I consider to be the baseline range for my 2014 Zero DS(P). It was late and all the roads were clear due to the Coronavirus. I have a familiar route around the roads of Hertfordshire and thought it was time to do my worst!
With reasonably good tyres, it's difficult to spin the rear wheel in dry conditions on tarmac. I've enough experience on the bike that I can comfortably hold the throttle wide open at all speeds. So that's what I did. I had no regard for the motor temperature, which soon rose above 110C where thermal management starts to cut the power. I just kept the throttle pinned as much as possible and let the bike use as much energy as it could.
The result was that I arrived home with 6% SoC and 42.3 miles on the clock. I'd call it 41 miles in reality as the odometer overstates by roughly that amount. The SoC rose to 8% by the time I had parked the bike. I guess we could be generous and say the bike could manage 45 miles at full chat. Maybe 50 until it died as the BMS would restrict power significantly for the last few miles.
I think I achieved what could be considered the worst case scenario. The only other test I'd like to do is to replicate this on the motorway. I'm sure the bike would settle at 75-80mph with full throttle applied. It would be interesting to see if the energy lost to drag at a constant high speed would be more than that lost to acceleration and braking on country roads. My gut feeling is that the range would be further on the motorway simply because the motor and inverter wouldn't get chance to cool so maximum power would be reduced for all but the first 30 seconds or so of the run.
I'd love it if manufacturers we forced to report the worst case scenario for range. Tested in cold conditions with a big and heavy rider, like me at 16 stone and causing lots of aerodynamic drag. After all, what's the point of having a sporty motorcycle if you have to ride it moderately in order to get 80 miles of range? We might as well be riding a 125cc petrol bike equivalent in that case.
I think this becomes even more important the more performance a bike offers. Many DS or S owners are likely to ride moderately and only use maximum power when overtaking. An SR, DSR, SR/F or SR/S owner will want to have some proper fun on theirs. I'll bet I could drain a ZF14.4 power pack even more quickly on any of those. Especially the latest models that have better cooling and twice the power and torque of my old DS.
Time is also a consideration. If I was to take an SR/F or S on a track day, how many 20 minute sessions could I get out of it? My guess is two at most, by which time the battery would be into thermal management. That would also affect any charging that was attempted.
A lot of this is academic though. Zeros are road bikes designed to be ridden sensibly on public roads. They are very well engineered to do that. After all, you wouldn't expect much more than 20 miles per gallon from a superbike on a track day when it could manage over 40mpg on the road at reasonable speeds.
I just thought I'd mention that Bugatti Veyron empties its 100 liter fuel tank in 15 minutes when trashing it. So riding a Zero so hard it goes into thermal slowdown, and thinking that that is somehow "true range", does not make sense to me.
By the way, riding a 2014 Zero into thermal management is very easy when having a bit of fun on the twisties. The motor overheats very quickly and the challenge becomes finding opportunities for it to cool down. Going through villages is good for that.
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Knowing how far you can got flat out on the freeway is helpful as a lower bound.
-Crissa
Yes, thanks Crissa. It can certainly help when planning and illustrates how much high speed affects range. A good example of why we should never trust manufacturers' figures.
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Why no fans fitted to the motor? Hm.
Cas :)
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Why no fans fitted to the motor? Hm.
Cas :)
More to go wrong. Zero's design philosophy is to keep it simple, as much as is possible. I wholeheartedly support that. Also, I'm not sure increased airflow would make a huge difference. The bottleneck in heat transfer is probably internal and has something to do with the conductivity of the materials used. There's also an air gap between the rotor and the stator, which never helps...
Overheating was mitigated somewhat in more recent model years by developing a new motor that used internally mounted permanent magnets. This significantly reduced the eddie currents that build up in surface mounted magnets, those eddie currents generating heat that can be difficult to dissipate in the rotor.
I once tried spraying water on the motor to try and improve the rate of cooling. I don't think it made any difference!
On a day-to-day basis, overheating isn't a problem. It's only when pressing on a bit that the motor enters the thermal management zone. It's certainly not enough of a problem to make me want to upgrade.
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It can certainly help when planning and illustrates how much high speed affects range. A good example of why we should never trust manufacturers' figures.
Here is what I discovered after getting a new battery in my Zero 6.5 (which is now 7.2 KWH). My very slow speed range improved quite a bit, like taking a trip on a long unpaved road. Such as the 40 mile round trip to Quitobaquito Springs with my bad battery last December. I had no problem with enough range on the bad battery as there was a lot of regen helping.
But my freeway range increased the most, by far, with the new battery.
I have a theory why. When my battery started to go south, the slow speed regen SEEMED to be more than ever. I will see the SOC increase a FEW points on a long coast, unlike now that the SOC doesn't increase at all (with the new battery) going down the same hills. This is because the battery was also charging three times as fast with the bad battery (perhaps was a third of the KWHs), so the regen would show 3 times more charge as well. But in reality, the regen was adding the same range as ever, it just has less battery to charge. But at slow speeds, the regen helps a lot when it's the same KW charge as ever, but with less KWHs to charge. Regen is adding the same range to a bad battery as it does to a good battery.
The big difference in range that I now have with the new battery is most noticeable on the freeway and at faster speeds.
Comparing my old battery to my new, I now can get about twice the range at slow speeds, but at least four times the range at higher speeds than before. Wasn't what I expected to happen with the new battery.
So when your battery starts to get old or starts to fail, expect to notice the BIG difference on the freeway and at higher speeds. The range difference is not as noticeable at slower speeds, perhaps because of the regen adding the same range on a bad battery as on a new.
If you notice your SOC increasing more than usual on a long down hill ride, that could be an indication of your battery having less KWH than before. Just as with faster than normal charge times. My bad battery was charging to full more than twice as fast than it should.
Anyway, that is my recent experience.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Overheating was mitigated somewhat in more recent model years by developing a new motor that used internally mounted permanent magnets. This significantly reduced the eddie currents that build up in surface mounted magnets, those eddie currents generating heat that can be difficult to dissipate in the rotor.
I once tried spraying water on the motor to try and improve the rate of cooling. I don't think it made any difference!
Just do what we did. Cut holes in the sides of the motor to force air through it. Debris/rocks get chewed up and spit out, no problem.
Do not actually do this. Or you could run liquid cooling like Arthur Kowitz!
(http://i.imgur.com/jn3nNkXl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/jn3nNkX)
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The existence of the air cooling fins on the motor suggests that there's definitely some merit to fans helping though. Probably quite powerful fans I imagine...
Cas :)
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It can certainly help when planning and illustrates how much high speed affects range. A good example of why we should never trust manufacturers' figures.
Here is what I discovered after getting a new battery in my Zero 6.5 (which is now 7.2 KWH). My very slow speed range improved quite a bit, like taking a trip on a long unpaved road. Such as the 40 mile round trip to Quitobaquito Springs with my bad battery last December. I had no problem with enough range on the bad battery as there was a lot of regen helping.
But my freeway range increased the most, by far, with the new battery.
I have a theory why. When my battery started to go south, the slow speed regen SEEMED to be more than ever. I will see the SOC increase a FEW points on a long coast, unlike now that the SOC doesn't increase at all (with the new battery) going down the same hills. This is because the battery was also charging three times as fast with the bad battery (perhaps was a third of the KWHs), so the regen would show 3 times more charge as well. But in reality, the regen was adding the same range as ever, it just has less battery to charge. But at slow speeds, the regen helps a lot when it's the same KW charge as ever, but with less KWHs to charge. Regen is adding the same range to a bad battery as it does to a good battery.
The big difference in range that I now have with the new battery is most noticeable on the freeway and at faster speeds.
Comparing my old battery to my new, I now can get about twice the range at slow speeds, but at least four times the range at higher speeds than before. Wasn't what I expected to happen with the new battery.
So when your battery starts to get old or starts to fail, expect to notice the BIG difference on the freeway and at higher speeds. The range difference is not as noticeable at slower speeds, perhaps because of the regen adding the same range on a bad battery as on a new.
If you notice your SOC increasing more than usual on a long down hill ride, that could be an indication of your battery having less KWH than before. Just as with faster than normal charge times. My bad battery was charging to full more than twice as fast than it should.
Anyway, that is my recent experience.
-Don- Reno, NV
I think regen is a red herring, DonTom. In fact regen is best switched off for the off-throttle position in order to increase range. Max regen is still useful when using the friction brakes, but conservation of momentum is what to focus on when trying to extend range to its maximum.
I think your bad battery was suffering from severe voltage drop, just as my ZF11.4 did when it was dieing. It explains the poor range at speed: voltage drops more severely under load.
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The existence of the air cooling fins on the motor suggests that there's definitely some merit to fans helping though. Probably quite powerful fans I imagine...
Cas :)
Sure, a strong fan would help, but perhaps much less than one would expect and less than the effort was worth.
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Overheating was mitigated somewhat in more recent model years by developing a new motor that used internally mounted permanent magnets. This significantly reduced the eddie currents that build up in surface mounted magnets, those eddie currents generating heat that can be difficult to dissipate in the rotor.
I once tried spraying water on the motor to try and improve the rate of cooling. I don't think it made any difference!
Just do what we did. Cut holes in the sides of the motor to force air through it. Debris/rocks get chewed up and spit out, no problem.
Do not actually do this. Or you could run liquid cooling like Arthur Kowitz!
(http://i.imgur.com/jn3nNkXl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/jn3nNkX)
Lol! And I thought I was bonkers!:-)))))))
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I think regen is a red herring, DonTom. In fact regen is best switched off for the off-throttle position in order to increase range. Max regen is still useful when using the friction brakes, but conservation of momentum is what to focus on when trying to extend range to its maximum.
At slower speeds which MUST vary a lot, regen is VERY helpful, so I am not sure what you're saying there. And there is never a real need to switch off regen as we can have it set to max regen and then use the throttle for NO regen at all. When you see no negative or positive bars on the screen you have NO regen even with regen set to the MAX. Just don't use the "off-throttle". There is no real need for it, except for when stopping completely.
I think your bad battery was suffering from severe voltage drop, just as my ZF11.4 did when it was dieing. It explains the poor range at speed: voltage drops more severely under load.
Of course it will drop voltage faster under larger loads. With new or old weak batteries.
Charge time was less half the normal time to full with my bike with the old bad battery. The means less than half the distance as well. IOW, my 6.5 KWH battery was down to around 3 KWHs. Much like a NEW 3 KWH battery would be. Will charge faster, and will have a lot less range. But the exact same benefit (in distance) from slow speed regen.
Since regen is mostly useless at higher speeds, there nothing is regained. There is much to regain at slower speeds when they MUST vary, as is the usual case at slow speeds, regardless if city or an unpaved road.
But a battery with half the KWH capacity will charge just as much (in added distance) from REGEN as a battery twice the KWH.
When my battery went south, it was obvious that the KWH dropped. Faster charging as well as less range proves such.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I think regen is a red herring, DonTom. In fact regen is best switched off for the off-throttle position in order to increase range. Max regen is still useful when using the friction brakes, but conservation of momentum is what to focus on when trying to extend range to its maximum.
At slower speeds which MUST vary a lot, regen is VERY helpful, so I am not sure what you're saying there. And there is never a real need to switch off regen as we can have it set to max regen and then use the throttle for NO regen at all. When you see no negative or positive bars on the screen you have NO regen even with regen set to the MAX. Just don't use the "off-throttle". There is no real need for it, except for when stopping completely.
I think your bad battery was suffering from severe voltage drop, just as my ZF11.4 did when it was dieing. It explains the poor range at speed: voltage drops more severely under load.
Of course it will drop voltage faster under larger loads. With new or old weak batteries.
Charge time was less half the normal time to full with my bike with the old bad battery. The means less than half the distance as well. IOW, my 6.5 KWH battery was down to around 3 KWHs. Much like a NEW 3 KWH battery would be. Will charge faster, and will have a lot less range. But the exact same benefit (in distance) from slow speed regen.
Since regen is mostly useless at higher speeds, there nothing is regained. There is much to regain at slower speeds when they MUST vary, as is the usual case at slow speeds, regardless if city or an unpaved road.
But a battery with half the KWH capacity will charge just as much (in added distance) from REGEN as a battery twice the KWH.
When my battery went south, it was obvious that the KWH dropped. Faster charging as well as less range proves such.
-Don- Reno, NV
It sounds counter-intuitive to not use regen unless under hard breaking. I had regen set to maximum at zero throttle for the first 20,000 miles on my bike. I liked it because I was mostly commuting in heavy traffic and it meant I didn't have to use the brakes much. However, I knew that a few people here had disabled regen on the throttle and had it set to max when the friction brakes are used. I finally got round to giving it a try and haven't looked back. It results in an even smoother riding experience and regen can still be used with the light application of either brake.
With regards to maximising range, minimising the use of regen makes sense when you think about all the energy losses from using it. Whilst Zero's drivetrain is very efficient indeed, it isn't perfect. Energy is lost in the motor converting kinetic energy to electrical energy. It is also lost converting it from AC to DC and then some more is lost while putting that energy into the battery. Similar losses occur as soon as you open the throttle and use the energy that was just stored. In most situations you're better off leaving the energy in its kinetic form by conserving momentum as much as you can when riding. That also leads to much smoother riding; coasting more and allowing wind resistance to slow you down. If you Google hypermiling, you'll get a more detailed explanation of some of the methods used to increase fuel economy. Car drivers will even put their EV into neutral to coast and prevent regen at times in order to maximise their range. I find that a bit extreme though. It's easier on a Zero as you can just switch it off in the custom settings.
Once you get used to riding without regen, you'll probably find it even more enjoyable. I highly recommend it. You'll also realise just how much speed reduces when off the throttle due to wind resistance. Even going down quite steep hills you'll notice that speed is maintained or reduces slowly. Therefore the brakes are only needed on the steepest of hills and regen will kick in as soon as you start to pull the brake lever, so you might not even get to apply the friction brakes in any significant way. Your brake pads will still last as long as they did before.
Some people find it disconcerting to ride with no regen at first. We're all conditioned to expect some engine breaking when we lift of the throttle. Persevere a little and it soon becomes natural. I'll even go as far as to say it might even improve your riding skills as you'll be looking further ahead and anticipating the road conditions more, rather than relying on regen to slow you down. You might make swifter progress too, as riding smoothly is a key aspect of advanced rider training. It makes you quicker overall, even though it seems you're riding Miss Daisy... ;-)
I hope that helps Don. If you've got anymore questions or I missed something from your previous post, then please fire away and I'll do my best.
Oh, and I hope it goes without saying: Never compromise your safety for fuel economy. It can be tempting to take corners faster than you might otherwise. Don't, unless you're confident you can stop in the distance that's visible to you and you've got enough grip etc.
I don't want to sound patronising. I put last paragraph in because I've been guilty of making that mistake myself...
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Even if you don't have regen on the throttle, you still have regen available with a soft tug of the brake lever. It triggers before the friction brakes do.
-Crissa
(Edit: There was an m instead of a comma.)
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That is a great dissertation, MostlyBonkers. Which I fully agree with. But I wouldn't have been able to explain the advantages of coasting with no regen nearly as well as you did. :)
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The advantage of REGEN is only when you MUST slow down or stop. Or else it is a waste of energy as you will never get back the power lost from slowing down when you have to speed back up. That's what I have been saying from the beginning.
At slow speeds, we often MUST vary speeds because of stopsigns, stoplights, traffic. Same type of thing often happens on unpaved roads. That is when we get the big gain from Regen.
There is never a reason to turn off regen unless you want to release the throttle all the way back. That is what I used to do. But since then, I discovered the regen can be set at the very max and have absolutely NO regen at all by using the throttle instead. Just have to get used to it.
I started doing this on my Energica because it has way too much regen even at the minimum setting. When I once got used to using the throttle to control the regen, I set it to the very max regen on my Energica for all times, but rarely use it while riding except for when I must slowdown or stop.
And I ride in the custom mode at all times on my Zeros with 80% deceleration regen and 100% braking regen and I often use NO regen at all with these settings when slowing down just a little.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That is a great dissertation, MostlyBonkers. Which I fully agree with. But I wouldn't have been able to explain the advantages of coasting with no regen nearly as well as you did. :)
On hilly freeways, such as between my house in Auburn and here in Reno, it is best to use no regen at all. Coast down the hill to help get up the next hill. That gives more than the 10% power we can get back from REGEN.
But what some people here do not realize (and I used to be one of them) is that we can always set our bikes to full regen and NOT use it at all while going down hill by using throttle control. Simply do NOT ever release the throttle all the way back until you MUST slow down or stop. Coast with full regen settings with no regen at all. You can see on the screen where the no regen is at with a full regen setting. No positive and no negative bars is NO regen REGARDLESS of regen settings. IOW, the very best way to do it, IMO, is to set regen very high BUT do NOT use it except when you want to. Do it by throttle control and get out of the bad habit of releasing the throttle all the way back.
I went form very low regen settings to very high REGEN setting and I now often use NO regen at all while slowing down by controlling it from the throttle. The lower regen settings are rather useless unless you want to keep on releasing the throttle. Just get out of the habit and control the regen from the throttle with high regen settings. Now you have the choice of how much REGEN to use without changing the settings. And having NO deceleration REGEN at all is possible from the highest deceleration REGEN settings.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The throttle is far to twitchy to try to match what the zero point is. It's far easier to set min regen at slack throttle and then have more of the throttle to play with for your speed.
The throttle os a mechanical device from 0 to 100 - if you add regen to the throttle you're making those n points map to a larger range from -100 to 100 and it doesn't map smoothly. (Probably because throttle actually is like 0 to 1000 whereas regen is -10 to -100)
Which is why most of us chose to do it the other way, and depend upon the brake to equal adding regen in the mix. When braking regen is used, the throttle mapping shifts the n positions down by the amount of regen you have assigned to braking regen.
So someone with regen set primarily on their braking can do what Don suggests, but they only have to hold the brake at the same time as the throttle.
-Crissa
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I agree with Crissa. I have tried Don's method of holding the throttle at a neutral position to prevent regen from activating, but I found it to be too touchy and too much work for me. Just completely closing the throttle and coasting is more relaxing, especially when going down a long hill. Having said that, riders should try both methods and use the one that works best for them :)
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The throttle is far to twitchy to try to match what the zero point is. It's far easier to set min regen at slack throttle and then have more of the throttle to play with for your speed.
You don't have to be at that exact zero regen spot. Zeros coast very poorly even when regen is turned off to nothing (Energias coast better when regen is off) . Just go the same speed while going downhill. There is no real need to know exactly where the no regen-point is, but you can find it by looking at the screen. You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range.
The only benefit of regen is when you're FORCED to slow down. Or else you're just wasting power as it will take more power to speed back up than you can save from slowing down regardless of your regen setting.
-Don- Reno, NV
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And I want to say, I think the Energica throttle is almost certainly different than the Zero one! So it might not be as twitchy with those settings, and of course you would like your controls not to differ to radically between bikes.
There's no one right way to ride a bike, primarily because it's so physical. And on an electric, we get to match those controls like no other bikes before.
Like, I've been playing No Man's Sky in VR recently (because how else am I going to get out of the house at night?) and I ended up using the old VR set instead of my spouse's fancy new one. The fancy new one has superior controls with much finer adjustments... But when I got into the rig and tried to play after hours of learning the other controllers, I realized it was just quicker for me to use the inferior controls that I knew rather than the superior controllers I didn't. I started to play using those controls, and they're sooo much better, but... When it comes to knowing how to flick things around, well, I have the hours practice using the others. So if I want to just play instead of fumble for what the right controls are, well, I'm going to have to use the older controllers even with the newer rig.
That applies here; you're used to the setup on your Energica (which is probably superior in this case) and so you're making it match up.
It's really a safety thing, too, to have it respond like you expect it to.
I've been finding it kinda neat to switch over to Sport Mode which has All The Regen which is usually way too much for my riding, but I can see where in the twists (and on the freeway) it's useful as you generally are either accelerating or braking with little in between. So I flip between the three modes quite comfortably now, hopefully more as I get better at riding!
-Crissa
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And I want to say, I think the Energica throttle is almost certainly different than the Zero one!
Yes, Zero is MUCH better at slow speeds if you don't count the slow forward that the Energica has (less than 2 MPH at WOT).
The Energica wants to fly in the normal mode at the slightest bit of throttle. It really needs the Slow Forward. That's why it has such. It is the same speed as the reverse.
-Don- Reno, NV
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That is a great dissertation, MostlyBonkers. Which I fully agree with. But I wouldn't have been able to explain the advantages of coasting with no regen nearly as well as you did. :)
Thanks Richard, it's great to hear that my efforts didn't go to waste and made sense to somebody other than myself! [emoji106]
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I agree with Crissa. I have tried Don's method of holding the throttle at a neutral position to prevent regen from activating, but I found it to be too touchy and too much work for me. Just completely closing the throttle and coasting is more relaxing, especially when going down a long hill. Having said that, riders should try both methods and use the one that works best for them :)
+1 It's so much less effort to just close the throttle when you don't need to accelerate. I've also tried coasting as Don describes. If anything it's unsafe as it's far too distracting. We need to be looking at the road and concentrating on the traffic rather than faffing around with the throttle at looking at power and torque graphs.
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If anything it's unsafe as it's far too distracting. We need to be looking at the road and concentrating on the traffic rather than faffing around with the throttle at looking at power and torque graphs.
Why look? Do exactly what Zero recommends, maintain a steady speed, even while going downhill.
Why is it important to know where there is no regen? Especially on a Zero which will slow down fast even when it has no regen while going down hill.
But if one really wants to know where the same point is of no regen, and no power used, you can look, but it certainly isn't important to know where the exact spot is. The bike coasts poorly there also. Even while going down hill, it requires some throttle to maintain a reasonable speed.
Anyway, I think we all realize it's just a personal preference. There is really no right or wrong way to do it, in most cases.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don's method is better if you end up going down long hills of various steepness. Otherwise you have to regen for a little while, coast for a little while, regen for a little while... Or hold the throttle open while you regen to lower it.
But most hills aren't that long.
-Crissa
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The throttle is far to twitchy to try to match what the zero point is. It's far easier to set min regen at slack throttle and then have more of the throttle to play with for your speed.
You don't have to be at that exact zero regen spot. Zeros coast very poorly even when regen is turned off to nothing (Energias coast better when regen is off) . Just go the same speed while going downhill. There is no real need to know exactly where the no regen-point is, but you can find it by looking at the screen. You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range.
The only benefit of regen is when you're FORCED to slow down. Or else you're just wasting power as it will take more power to speed back up than you can save from slowing down regardless of your regen setting.
-Don- Reno, NV
You're nothing if not stubborn, Don! ;-)
I think we all understand what you're getting at, it's just that we much prefer to keep things simple and easy. If the throttle had a larger dead spot before progressive regen as you twist the throttle forward, then we might use that. There was an early electric scooter that did that (I forget the name), and I wish Zero and other manufacturers would implement it. I love the idea of being able to vary the amount of regen with such an intuitive method.
I have to address one statement you made:
"You waste power even with no regen when the bike slows down. Just stay at a steady speed, just like Zero recommends for best range."
For starters, Zero don't get everything right so their advice is best taken with caution. They royally screwed up by advising customers to leave their bikes plugged in all the time, for years I might add!
I have an innate need to correct the first part of your quote: You don't waste power when the bike slows down, the bike loses kinetic energy. That kinetic energy is lost to drag when coasting. You do require power to restore that kinetic energy to either maintain a constant speed or get back up to speed if the bike has slowed.
The vast majority of power used to maintain any given speed goes to balancing the forces of aerodynamic drag. Aerodynamic drag increases as the cube of velocity. That means it also decreases significantly as you shed speed. Therefore a bit of coasting, when conditions allow, is always a good thing as the power consumed getting back up to speed will be less than what would have been used maintaining it.
I'm not a hypermiler, but I've read their tips. One of which encourages getting up to speed and coasting where possible. Another suggests coasting a little towards to top of a hill and letting gravity bring you back up to speed on the other side. None of that involves maintaining a constant speed.
Perhaps the most important point to make though, is that saving relatively small amounts of energy, or extending your range by a couple of miles or so, should be at the bottom of the list of things to do on a motorcycle. Safety comes first and then having a bit of fun. That's why I'm not so keen on the people out there going to extremes to get an extra mile or two to the gallon. Unless they are already very competent drivers, or riders, they are undoubtedly putting others at risk by giving themselves an extra workload. They also hold up the poor buggers that get stuck behind them!
I hope this helps Don, along with some great comments from Crissa and Richard.
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That scooter that MostlyBonkers was thinking of was the Vectrix (check out the Vectrix forum, below). I test rode one during the late 1990s at the San Rafael, CA, BMW shop. That two-way throttle was one of its best features, plus it also had a slow reverse. The throttle had a neutral position. As I recall if it was stopped, moving the throttle forward past the neutral position, would slowly move the scooter backward, but if the scooter was moving forward, moving the throttle forward would activate the regen feature. I have no idea why that throttle idea was never used again. Probably because whomever still owns the Vectrix brand still owns their patents. ???
The scooter was really ahead of the time, although it was a bit too expensive for the market back then and they started selling the scooter through exclusive Italian-brand auto dealers (perhaps because of its high price), which is never a good idea for scooter or motorcycle sales. By the time motorcycle shops started trying to sell the brand, it was already too late as the factory's finances were rapidly sliding downhill. Apparently, they just invested too much in design and development and could not generate enough sales and profit to pay back their development costs. The Vectrix brand tried coming back once or twice over the years, but that never worked out and I have no idea where things stand right now with the brand's intellectual property and particularly its neat throttle design.
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Don's method is better if you end up going down long hills of various steepness. Otherwise you have to regen for a little while, coast for a little while, regen for a little while... Or hold the throttle open while you regen to lower it.
But most hills aren't that long.
-Crissa
Good point, as I-80 between here and Auburn is nothing but long hills and that is why I mention the way I now do it. At first, I kept Regen off to make that ride. I now have it always set at the max and use the throttle to adjust my regen. It does take some getting used to, but it is even safer after getting used to not ever releasing the throttle except for fast slowdowns or stops.
-Don- Reno, NV
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So someone with regen set primarily on their braking can do what Don suggests, but they only have to hold the brake at the same time as the throttle.
AFAIK, only Zero adds REGEN by braking.
Energica and Tesla ONLY has deceleration regen, but many people still call it "braking REGEN" which adds to confusion.
I prefer Zero's method of increasing REGEN with the brakes. IMO, all EVs should do that. But AFAIK, only Zero does such.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Honda and Toyota do braking with regen, I don't know about GM.
-Crissa
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That scooter that MostlyBonkers was thinking of was the Vectrix (check out the Vectrix forum, below). I test rode one during the late 1990s at the San Rafael, CA, BMW shop. That two-way throttle was one of its best features, plus it also had a slow reverse. The throttle had a neutral position. As I recall if it was stopped, moving the throttle forward past the neutral position, would slowly move the scooter backward, but if the scooter was moving forward, moving the throttle forward would activate the regen feature. I have no idea why that throttle idea was never used again. Probably because whomever still owns the Vectrix brand still owns their patents. ???
The scooter was really ahead of the time, although it was a bit too expensive for the market back then and they started selling the scooter through exclusive Italian-brand auto dealers (perhaps because of its high price), which is never a good idea for scooter or motorcycle sales. By the time motorcycle shops started trying to sell the brand, it was already too late as the factory's finances were rapidly sliding downhill. Apparently, they just invested too much in design and development and could not generate enough sales and profit to pay back their development costs. The Vectrix brand tried coming back once or twice over the years, but that never worked out and I have no idea where things stand right now with the brand's intellectual property and particularly its neat throttle design.
Very interesting, thanks Richard.
I think I've found the patent:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6724165B2/en
It expires in a coupe of years. Take note Zero!
In March of this year it was assigned to GP Technology & Innovation Ltd. It might be a company name change or a different company altogether.
What I don't know is whether patents can be renewed or extended.
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Honda and Toyota doe braking with regen, I don't know about GM.
-Crissa
I assume you meant extra regen while braking.
I wonder why others don't do the same, such as Tesla and Energica. But they have a lot more deceleration regen, so it's less important.
-Don-
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It's just a different paradigm for safety - that cutting out the motor solves any chance of motor runaway or freezing up.
-Crissa