ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: daniels1216 on April 28, 2020, 09:35:22 AM
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Warranty replacement: Is it possible for a dealer to mistakenly order and install a standard charger on a premium Sr/s under warranty? Asking for a friend. Zero customer service please contact me. Thank you.
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Could Zero motorcycle have installed a standard level charger on my premium bike during factory build? I’ve never charged at more than 2.8kwh
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The premium is 6kW right? I think it literally has two standard 3kW chargers and they're visible just above the battery pack.
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yes its two chargers. With the srs fairing it's difficult to see above the battery pack
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First, no. The 3kw chargers are identical, and two of them are present in the 6kw model.
Second, Zero does not monitor this. You'd be far better off emailing support@zeromotorcycles.com or calling them if you want their help. They may send you to a dealer who can get logs and perform additional diagnostics.
How are you trying to charge your SR/S? I ask because if you are using the supplied Turbocord, it is incapable of reaching 6kW and will max out at ~3kW. The only other way to max charging at 3kW is to have a defect in the charge harness or the chargers themselves. Zero and their dealers can assist with that.
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I’ve never charged at more than 2.8kwh
Have you tried several different chargers while on the road?
Need more details on where you're charging.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I understand some level 2 chargers drop to 3KW if multiple vehicles are connected (although I've not seen this myself).
Steve
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I understand some level 2 chargers drop to 3KW if multiple vehicles are connected (although I've not seen this myself).
Steve
I have at the office. The Chargepoint stations each have two cables. If both are in use, each vehicle only gets 3kW.
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I’ve never charged at more than 2.8kwh
Do tell us more about where you are charging.
On my 120 wall outlet, I get 1.2kW
On my 240 dryer outlet using a Jesla adapter I get 5.5kW
(https://i.ibb.co/k2GCkwY/IMG-0513.jpg)
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I previously owned a zero Sr/f premium so that bike I could charge at 6.6kwh at local charge stations. So I tried each of these stations I previously would reach 6.6kwh but with my Sr/s premium I only reach 2.8kwh (with no other ev on the second porT. Additionally the port says 6.6kwh per port.) I’ve tried at least 8 different charging stations with the same result . With the home charge cord attached to a regular receptacle I reach 1.2kwh (normal). I’ve emailed zero twice and no response.
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I previously owned a zero Sr/f premium so that bike I could charge at 6.6kwh at local charge stations. So I tried each of these stations I previously would reach 6.6kwh but with my Sr/s premium I only reach 2.8kwh (with no other ev on the second porT. Additionally the port says 6.6kwh per port.) I’ve tried at least 8 different charging stations with the same result . With the home charge cord attached to a regular receptacle I reach 1.2kwh (normal). I’ve emailed zero twice and no response.
Bummer, sounds like you lost one of the two chargers.
Steve
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You mention 6.6kW
I assume that you are referring to the capacity of the charge station, not the kW number on the dash during charging.
My understanding is that the 6kW capacity of the onboard chargers is a mathematical capacity, and in the real word after losses along the way, that turns out to be a bit less than 6kW. I think the highest I have seen on my dash is 5.8kW
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Correct the 6.6 I’m referring to is the charging station. On the dash charging has never been more than 2.8 kw on my Sr/s premium. On my previous Sr/f premium IVe seen 6.6 Max.
You mention 6.6kW
I assume that you are referring to the capacity of the charge station, not the kW number on the dash during charging.
My understanding is that the 6kW capacity of the onboard chargers is a mathematical capacity, and in the real word after losses along the way, that turns out to be a bit less than 6kW. I think the highest I have seen on my dash is 5.8kW
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Correct the 6.6 I’m referring to is the charging station. On the dash charging has never been more than 2.8 kw on my Sr/s premium.
Well that sucks. You mentioned that you emailed Zero. Have you reached out to your dealer?
On my previous Sr/f premium IVe seen 6.6 Max.
This still confuses me. I expect the display to always be under the 6.0kW theoretical maximum.
I could be wrong. I often am.
But so far with my Jesla and TeslaTap, 5.8 is the most I have seen on my display.
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There are two wattage measurements related to the charger, what it's pulling from the wall and what it's putting out to the battery. Perhaps there's an option to choose between those on the SR/F/S dash or it varies by firmware version. Charging my DS the app on my phone will show around 1500w max so it's measuring the power drawn from the mains as it's only a 1300w charger.
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My two cents, here with a SR/F. The first type 2 male/female cable I used was sold as using three phases but I could not manage past 3 kW. Upon opening it I realized that only a single phase was wired. Two additional wires were needed to reach 6 kW so I kept the plugs but changed the cable. But you mentioned prior experience charging at 6 kW with a SR/F so I don't think you have a cable problem since you're able to compare. Regarding comparison, I remember noticing on a non-premium SR/F (the demo bike I used) how the second 3 kW charger wasn't physically installed, leaving some sort of an emptiness below the frunk. That shouldn't be any different with the SR/S.
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But so far with my Jesla and TeslaTap, 5.8 is the most I have seen on my display.
The same 5.8 max with me on my SR/F Premium: on my washing machine / dryer outlet at home (type T25 Switzerland) or on several 22 kW chargers on the rode (with Mennekes plug on the SR/F).
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Correct the 6.6 I’m referring to is the charging station. On the dash charging has never been more than 2.8 kw on my Sr/s premium.
Well that sucks. You mentioned that you emailed Zero. Have you reached out to your dealer?
On my previous Sr/f premium IVe seen 6.6 Max.
This still confuses me. I expect the display to always be under the 6.0kW theoretical maximum.
I could be wrong. I often am.
But so far with my Jesla and TeslaTap, 5.8 is the most I have seen on my display.
My SR/F gets 5.4KW on the dash, and shows 6KW from the charger (Juice Box Pro 40 in my garage). The same charger gets close to 7KW on my Honda Clarity (input), so I believe the input power won't go over 6KW on my SR/F Premium.
Steve
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@daniels1216, have you tried calling Zero at 1 (888) 786-9376? I've only needed to talk to them a couple times for my SR/F, and they were much more communicative when I started things via phone (and emails after that). Even before their support staff was working from home, it felt like they have a very small staff to handle things.
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I understand some level 2 chargers drop to 3KW if multiple vehicles are connected (although I've not seen this myself).
Steve
I have seen such. It's when the two chargers are on the same circuit. The parking lot at the college in Grass Valley, CA is one such place where that happens. The chargers are always right next to each other. If the other vehicle leaves, the charge rate will double for the one that is left.
-Don- Reno, NV
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After 2 weeks at the dealer they found nothing wrong with charging ( I’m still drawing 2.8kw max at 6.6 rated chargers with only the bike plugged in). The dealer referred me to the 866 number for these technical issues.
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Just noting here that you will never actually see 6.6kW charge rate on a Premium SR/F or SR/S. The units deliver a maximum of 57 amps to the battery. Watts are a measure of Volts x Amps. If the bike is 0% dead empty, that's 95 volts. 95V x 57A = 5415 Watts or 5.4kW. At the mid point, 102 volts, that's 102V x 57A = 5,814 Watts or 5.8kW. At 80% or 110 volts thats 110V x 57A = 6,270 Watts or 6.3kW. Charging generally starts to slow down a little above this, but just for the sake of argument, let's pretend it didn't. Let's pretend it stayed at full power all the way to 100% full or 116.4 volts. 116.4V x 57A = 6634.8 Watts or 6.6kW.
Mathematically you will only ever see a max of 6.6kW if the bike was over 115 volts. But at that point, realistically, you're in voltage cutback and more like to see 1-3kW.
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Hi Daniels1216, so this sounds like it just needs some good old trouble shooting.
So the dealers says nothing wrong with charging. You need to make sure they say fully and clearly what the bike IS doing.
Are they plugging it into a wall and see it's taking power or are they taking it to a charging station with a working app link and seeing the bike charge at 6 kWs?
Let's say they did go to a station and got the full 6kWs, ok did they use your charging cable or one they had or just the one from the station. Lets go do it again and film it.
What is your SOC when going to the station? I assume you know it will ramp down the charging speed as it hits a higher SOC. This "may" include a ramp down towards a lower top limited SOC, ex. 80% SOC max charging limit set. IOW the BMS would now view 80% SOC as 100% and ramp down at sat 65%. Just guessing here I have gen 2 bikes.
One other shot int the dark is, this was a standard bike priced as a premium by "mistake". More of a long shot but I've seen bikes for sale with a "power tank" that was a charge tank and 2016 FXSs with factory new 7.2 batteries that were of course just the 6.5 but again "mistakenly" posted as 7.2.
Let us know what you find out.
I see Morgan posted while I wrote this and I defer to his math on this but I assume you saw higher charge rates on your SRF so that's what your looking for with this bike as well.
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Should the exact diagnosis of what is occurring not be in the logs?
Cas :)
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I see Morgan posted while I wrote this and I defer to his math on this but I assume you saw higher charge rates on your SRF so that's what your looking for with this bike as well.
As far as I know the SR/F and SR/S have the same onboard charging units so their behavior should be identical.
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Yeah that's what he was saying on the first page. He had a SRF premium that he said charged at 6.6 (yeah I know) but the SRS "premium" wasn't doing the same.
I think there is often times a loss of information from what the owner tells the service center desk guy is wrong with the bike and what the desk guy tells the mechanic is wrong with it. IOW "the guy says it's not charging" and not relaying that it's charging but not charging at a 6ish kW rate. The mechanic plugs it up sees it taking a charge and says it's fixed.
Now this of course isn't what I'm saying for sure happened just saying it's a place to start looking.
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I agree if he paid for the Premium model and he's not getting the right charging rates it should be fixed. My point is that, short of adding in the Rapid Charger, that bike will never see 6.6kW from the default onboard units.
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Yeah, but 2.8 doesn't sound right at all.
How could they see nothing wrong, though? Do they not have a charger to test against? My dealer hadn't gotten one in until this year.
-Crissa
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LOL Morgan I agree with your agree and I thought I was using enough code to show I agreed with your math with (yeah I know) and 6ish.
Just restating the OP's specs.
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Easy to check, if you look under the "tank" there are vents. If one of those is blocked you only have a single charger.
Max I ever got with my premium is 5.7kW.
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The srs premium I paid for Does have the heated grips and supposed to have the charge tank. I see the two vents under the storage tank. Plus the service associate who signed the bike to me after having the charger replaced initially Told me the “two” chargerS cost the shop 3k *warranty issue addressed in OP* (charge would only commence randomly and sometimes id have to go around the block and retry plugging in again for the charge to start). I don’t think the dealer has access to a charging station which is why there may be ‘no charging issues’. The dealer claims to send logs to zero every time I’ve brought it in. I love the bike and I know the issues will be resolved but man it’s caused me a little bit of a heartbreak. I’m calling zero tomorrow because this is my only way of transportation and it’s killing me to sit at a charger for 3 hours to fully charge.
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If you're in California, you can demand any diagnostic logs from your dealer. They have to turn over replaced components and explain why they believe it runs the way it does, in writing. Sometimes techs do the least possible... And that happens no matter the brand, unfortunately.
Good luck! Hopefully it's something dumb like a broken or disconnected cable. It wouldn't take much for it to only charge on one pin or something. Or for your local charging stations to be acting weird, and it not being the bike. How many 6KW stations have your tried?
-Crissa
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Ok I have to say your OP made me think you needed warranty service not that you had already gotten it. So the plot thickens.
Now the logs "could" show a charger fault but if the bike doesn't "know" it has 6kW access it may not send it to the logs.
EX: If you were to plug it into a wall socket it wouldn't show a failure for not having 6kW to charge with.
For now I'll assume your dealer is on the up and up but them saying it cost them $3k for a new charger isn't right. The manufacturer covers warranty costs not the dealer. Again long shot but heated grips are an option you can get with a standard bike. I'd give Zero the VIN and make sure it's shown as a premium model to get that cleared up for good.
If you have the bike back you can take it to a charger and video what it does. The dash time to recharge clock should be enough to show your charge rate. If it's still low see if you can see if anyone else is having trouble at that station. It "could" be the station.
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I’m in constant communication with zero techs and they say I need to prime the charger by connecting the turbo cord charger to a 220/v240v. How to I get from a regular male connection 110v to a 220/240v connection? The zero tech says I would need an additional adapter in addition to the turbocord and the provided adapter (nema 6-20p). If any one has a product for these adaptions Let let me know.
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I'm not sure what you're asking.
You can't get 6KW through a normal 110 outlet, they're only rated for 1.5KW resistive or 15 to 20 amps only.
You need a special 220 outlet like a stove or dryer outlet. Those are made with two 'hot' lines (it would have four tines instead of three) and rated for a higher amperage.
-Crissa
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^ I know I won’t get the full charge 5.8kw but some zero chargers are known to not reach that until they are ‘primed’ by plugging into a 220v source. But I don’t know how to plug in the powercord which came with the bike into a dryer receptacle
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A charging station is 220V or higher.
If you were plugged into one that shows it as a 6-7kW charger on one of the Plug Share or other apps you had 220V or better.
I have no idea what "primed" is.
Did your SRF need to be primed? I'll wager it worked just fine at the charging station.
For your house you would need something like this:
http://www.2daydeliver.com/product_detail.php?id=SKUB079NTNJ5C&category=Vehicles+%26+Parts+&sub_category=+Vehicle+Parts+%26+Accessories+%3E+Motor+Vehicle+Parts+%3E+Motor+Vehicle+Batteries+%3E+Hybrid+Batteries&last_node=Hybrid+Batteries
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The tech wants me charge the bike with the 220v turbocord then try plugging into the 6.6kw charge stations. He says using the turbocord on 220/240 will prime the bike to then accept the 5.8 at the charge stations.
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Ok the dealer has all the connections for me to charge with the powercord on a 220v source. I’m excited like a young boy on Christmas to see if this fixes my problem.
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Yeah and what I'm saying is if you plugged it into a charging station already then you have "exposed" the bike's charger to 220V.
That's as "primed" as it can get.
To be clear your in the US correct? And the cord that came with the bike is a male J1772 plug/gun on one end and a US 110V male plug on the other end?
I see you posted while I was writing. Ok good luck.
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Yes I’m in the US. The turbocord is a level 2 j1772 male yes.
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The plug end of the charge cord is a 110 3 prong but there is an adapter for a 120 v plug. The adapter had 1 of the prongs sideways.
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A 110 plug with a tine turned sideways means it needs a 20a isolated circuit. You'll need a qualified electrician (or similar) to make sure it's wired right if you don't have one. That's like an outlet a furnace, water heater, or power tools are plugged into.
-Crissa
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A 110 plug with a tine turned sideways means it needs a 20a isolated circuit.
It's probably the other blade. The standard US AC outlet is NEMA 5-15 (15A). The 20A version with left 90° blade (ground at bottom) is NEMA 5-20. The version with both blades at 90° is NEMA 6-15. And the version with the right blade at 90° is NEMA 6-20. I have a TurboCord (BMW branded) with the 240V adapter and it is NEMA 6-20. It has two thermal fuses inside but otherwise passes the voltage through.
BC
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A NEMA 6-15 is for 220 and is really uncommon and I wouldn't expect any of Zero's stuff to use it. I thought about using it for a break-away in my cable but decided not to make it that complex.
-Crissa
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Ok, problem resolved!
After ‘priming the charger’ I was still unable to reach more than 2.8 so I returned the bike to the dealer where they found one of the chargers was not connected to the MBB. Problem solved. Plus I’m miraculously receiving charge notifications, charger disconnection notifications, and the like from the bike! I feel much at ease now.
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Huzzah!
Sometimes you just need the tech to listen, huh?
-Crissa
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The fact that you are consistently getting 3 KW is an indication of a problem. Most likely ( hopefully ) one of the chargers is not connected.
I use ChargePoint chargers if I wish to quickly monitor output. the 6.6 on the charger is what it is CAPABLE of putting out.
Identical 6.6 chargers around Vegas will output from around 5 to just over 7. This is solo use so no accounting for 2nd cable
in use. Each charger will always output the same, only difference is location. I figure that it has to do with power to the charger ( EVSE ).
My Zeros are Old School so don't have anything other than old Level I charger built in. I do have external chargers which will give me
a total of around 5 KW into the battery if on a road trip. MY feeling about the difference is that the lower output 5 is probably around 200 volts.
the 6 is probably around 208, and the 7 is probably 240. The other option might be that they allow for adjustment on the EVSE so an owner
could lower the output for less stress on the system. Doubtful as all of the chargers at the signature station at NV Energy all output 6 KW whild
Atomic Testing Museum and Springs Preserve output over 7 KW. The onboard charger on any vehicle is not 100%, so you will achieve a lower amount
than delivered. My Bolt plugged in to a ChargePoint usually shows similar received to what is put out. My brother has a Kia Niro EV and says that
he generally gets around 6 if plugged into ChargePoint, and around 7 if using the Tesla Adaptor on a destination charger.
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Ok, problem resolved!
After ‘priming the charger’ I was still unable to reach more than 2.8 so I returned the bike to the dealer where they found one of the chargers was not connected to the MBB. Problem solved. Plus I’m miraculously receiving charge notifications, charger disconnection notifications, and the like from the bike! I feel much at ease now.
Yeah I figured either a bad charger or not connected. If you could tell from my earlier posts electric "priming" isn't a thing.
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Ok, problem resolved!
After ‘priming the charger’ I was still unable to reach more than 2.8 so I returned the bike to the dealer where they found one of the chargers was not connected to the MBB. Problem solved. Plus I’m miraculously receiving charge notifications, charger disconnection notifications, and the like from the bike! I feel much at ease now.
Yeah I figured either a bad charger or not connected. If you could tell from my earlier posts electric "priming" isn't a thing.
Well, it certainly should be.
Car (both BEV & ICE) manufacturers are adding fake engine sounds (and in some models, you can't even turn the sounds off) so they sell better.
e-motorcycle makers should add a "prime" button feature like the setting that fuel tank petcocks used to have, which would turn on a fake fuel-smell generator.
I'm sure it would sell lots of bikes.
/s