ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: rogerpiano on June 21, 2020, 09:30:46 PM
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Hi everyone. I have just joined the forum but I have been following it carefully for over a year. I have an S of 2019 and I use it for business trips (30 km a day) as well as for amusement rides. After a year I would like to have more flexibility for charging, so that I can program a few longer laps. My alternatives would be:
1) Charge tank
Pro
- is an official Zero component
Versus
- occupies the place of the tank which is very convenient for me
- puts extra weight on the top of the bike
2) Diginow supercharger
Pro
- Occupies the lower part of the motorcycle and leaves the tank free
Versus
- I understand that it is no longer produced
- Living in Italy I wouldn't know how and by whom to have it assembled and I would hardly get my hand personally
3) Upgrade to SR / F
Pro
- More power
- More passive safety
- Quick charge and storage compartment at the same time
Versus
- More weight for the same battery
- further investment of (much) money
4) Mennekes cable on pillar side - C13 on motorcycle side
Pro
- paltry cost
Versus
- I could recharge wherever there is a column but always only at 1.3 KW, so at most with 1-2 hours of parking it would give me a 10-20% additional charge
If there was an official Zero charge tank with the characteristics of the Diginow I would buy it immediately, but at the moment it seems to me that the alternatives are the ones I wrote. In addition I add that I like the S so aesthetically (on par if not more than the SR / F) and that I see it more suitable for weight and performance to my build and driving experience (1 year)
Help (and sorry for automatic translation)!
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Yeah, this is the decision that crushed my hopes of getting the Diginow chargers last year.
I hope their next edition of the S-frame bikes will solve this weight and placement issue of the charge tank. The whole point of the S bikes are to be light and easy to use, right? Moving around the components so that it has a more powerful default charger integrated down low just seems like the right thing to do.
Just give us a granny lead like every other EV out there for charging from the wall.
-Crissa
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You could get one of the Delta Quiq chargers (or a similar but more powerful alternative if you can get it programmed), stick it in a top box or pannier and you're up to 2.3kw (or 3.3kw with two, one in each pannier).
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Zero batteries retain so much heat that it's not practical to install a L2 charger. I have a 9.9 kW Diginow that I haven't installed for that reason.
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Zero batteries retain so much heat that it's not practical to install a L2 charger. I have a 9.9 kW Diginow that I haven't installed for that reason.
I can't say for the old/small batteries, but the 14.4KW battery pack can charge without any problems at 12KW, at least here in Ohio. The SR/F and SR/S are having the same 14.4KW battery pack and they're OEM charging at 12KW. My DSR with Charge tank and two 3.3KW DigiNow chargers in the pan also have no issues charging @12KW.
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To make it a more practical commuter or do a day trip you really only need to fast-charge once or twice in a day, which isn't so bad for it to get warm once in awhile.
What were you trying to do, ditto, fast-charge in full Arizona sun or something?
-Crissa
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Hey rogerpiano,
for europe, the best solution is the Otten charger by Lennart Otten (Germany). But you have to consider that it uses most of the space in your tank compartment. On the plus side you‘ll get 7.9kW L2 Charging for a reasonable price. Its not hard to install (just did it myself on my 2016 SR) and you‘ll get a pictured install guide from Lennart. A bit of basic electronic knowledge and the understanding of not to give orange cables a lick should get you there.
After my onboard charger died I installed the Otten charger and I‘m VERY satisfied with it.
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@froginhoo
Do you have a link for this?
It would be a good thing to input to the unofficial manual to give users more options. :)
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Hey rogerpiano,
for europe, the best solution is the Otten charger by Lennart Otten (Germany). But you have to consider that it uses most of the space in your tank compartment. On the plus side you‘ll get 7.9kW L2 Charging for a reasonable price. Its not hard to install (just did it myself on my 2016 SR) and you‘ll get a pictured install guide from Lennart. A bit of basic electronic knowledge and the understanding of not to give orange cables a lick should get you there.
After my onboard charger died I installed the Otten charger and I‘m VERY satisfied with it.
I have been trying to find information on this set-up, but have failed so far. Do you have a link, pictures or something alike?
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I had the exact same struggle and considered the exact same things.
I really struggled with the idea to give up my little "tank" storage space. I have my disk locks, tire emergency repair kit, wet tissues etc. in there. Yes I can get a top case, but that destroys the great looks of my SR and I am also a leg swinger (when getting on the bike, I swing my leg over the end of the seat, like getting on a horse) which is impacted by a case.
I also find the charge tank-upgrade to not really be powerful enough, but I much liked the idea of having a Zero supported and dealer installed solution instead of something without dealer support and warranty (like Diginow type of solutions).
The SR/F crossed my mind, but after giving that one a spin, I did not feel it would be a significant enough upgrade for the rather steep investment (wanted minimum 6KW charging capacity). I actually like the handling of my SR a bit better, but I would love the new things that the SR/F brings to the table (i.e. new dash and remote updates). The fact that it does not (yet?) have DC charge options however feels to me like upgrading to something that is already out of date.
I considered an Energica for it's DC charging possibility, but I love all the Zero things like no fluids and no chain to much to give up on that. Also in my mind Energica's are expensive, there are far less dealers and the ones which are there are brand new and have no experience with motorbikes and (in my case) are to far from my home which is inconvenient for service (which Energica's need more than Zero's) and Energica's weight much more than the Zeros.
It is not a done deal in my head yet and still Energica (especially the Ego) crosses my mind regularly when thinking of a possible next bike.
So I decided to go for a Diginow 9.9Kw in a belly ban set-up. It saves my precious storage space, does not really change the looks of the bike (the pan is mostly similar to the original) and provides a LOT of charging power.
It is not a perfect choice; there is no company supporting it, it is crazy expensive, you need to install it yourself and pray it will just work and if it does work, pray it will continue to do so.
I got the install done, but I took my time to really understand upfront how everything worked, what is what and how it should be installed, where the cables should be routed to and through etc.. It took me weeks of thinking, considering and asking others questions and even then while installing I had to change my plans a few times.
Now it is on the bike, but not yet nicely finished; the inlet (plug) is still ty-rapped to the bike and the switches are not yet in their final place.
Why? 1. I just finished the first install two weeks ago and I am still testing. 2. While testing I encountered some challenges that I want to fix first before I finish up everything nicely.
I have a NEW version 3 set which does not connect to the bike's CANBAN, which should be a good thing, because that was considered to be creating problems with the 2.5 version, but it also does not have bluetooth and does not use the charging stations' pilot signal.
This means that some charging stations reject to charge and that home chargers that are set to i.e. charge at 10Amps (i.e. because there are other devices connected to the same power group) will error out and I have not option to do something about that.
Morgan, one of the Diginow owners has been super helpful on my Diginow journey. He has been answering all my questions and also because of that I have learned a lot about EV charging.
Diginow has also offered to build a brain/controller box V3.1 which does follow the charge stations pilot signal. That is great and would probably make this set-up exactly what I hoped for it to be, but my mind is stuck on the fact that I payed BIG $$$$ for something that works great, but not in all circumstances and in order to fix that I again have to cough up $$.
Also the fact that it is again not sure that it will work (Diginow is in the US) keeps me from going that direction, at least for now. I am also talking to someone else who might have an alternative that sounds really great that I want to explore first.
For all the charge stations at which it does work (which is the majority at the moment), it is really great and I just love seeing my Zero charging at 9KW+ rates and have charge times way below 1.5 hours instead of above 8 hours.
One thing that is a bit of a challenge is the fact that with fast charging, fat cables and plugs come along. Where the stock charge cable and a charge station adapter (mennekes to shuko) did fit in my "tank" storage space, the new cable does not at all........
For me there is no perfect solution at the moment, but (when I fix the final hurdle) the Diginow set-up comes closest I think, also considering the fact that when I ride and charge I rather do that at places which typically have AC charge stations, where the DC charge stations are mostly at the highways that I prefer to avoid as much as possible. That could change when changing my riding habits, i.e. I have been using the bike for commuting for a while and that was mostly highways........
The perfect solution for me would probably be an SR/F type of bike that is better protected against water, has gone on a diet but would remain to have a 12Kw AC combined with a DC fast charge option (more than 1C) and still have space left somewhere on the bike for a charge cable, two locks, some tissues and a tire repair kit.....
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for europe, the best solution is the Otten charger by Lennart Otten (Germany)
I didn't really know that there was this alternative available in Europe.
I did some research and found the Otten store but found no direct references to the chargers. I sent mail to the shop for info.
I had the exact same struggle and considered the exact same things.
I believe that our considerations have made many other Zero owners too.
I, for example, do not really feel the need to switch to SR / F, except for the quick recharge + the object compartment.
Sorry to see that Diginow has shown a viable road for quick refilling without occupying the tank and without raising the center of gravity of the bike and Zero seems to not treasure this. I believe, as a layman, that it would take very little to join forces and create a product that would be useful to many and that would be better than the official Charge Tank in every aspect.
At the moment, to buffer a little, I am considering purchasing the Mennekes-C13 cable, but I would like to be sure that it works.
Unfortunately my "electrical" knowledge is rather limited, but I saw that, in theory, using a Mennekes + Schuko adapter I could charge on any column with Mennekes socket, and therefore the direct cable should work the same.
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I have a Mennekes to UK mains plug adapter (originally came with a Schuko socket from I think the Netherlands which I swapped out) and it works fine. I got it instead of a Mennekes to C13 cable so that I can just use the stock charging cable and not having to carry an entirely separate cable around, plus it's cheaper to replace the cable and easier to find different lengths if needed. Also, I haven't tried it but in theory you could plug any mains powered device into it which could be handy in some way, perhaps if you wanted to carry around a powered pump or recharge a laptop.
I know Diginow have had some issues with there chargers, I think the v2.5. I don't know enough about how they work or what the exact issues was to say for sure but perhaps it was an unavoidable problem that Zero also wouldn't be able to overcome, at least with the same charging units. Before I even got my Zero I was planning on getting one, the implementation is close to perfect, but there's no way I'm taking that gamble now. I'd rather just have something I can stick in a pannier, top box, backpack, etc., whether that's the Delta charger or something similar from Otten.
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A Mennekes to Shuko in combination with the stock charge cable works perfect. That is how I used to charge at charge stations. The only thing with that is that it is slowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. That is a weird feeling, because on a charge station my brain expects to charge faster than on a household outlet. It however is the charger that is the limiting factor, but my brain just refuses to register that :-).
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I did some research and found the Otten store but found no direct references to the chargers. I sent mail to the shop for info.
Thats the correct way. Unfortunately Otten does not provide a web shop or any other information on their website. But the information given by Lennart is worthier than a link. He sends out a manual of how to install it and explains everything in detail. I decided to have the large solution with two 3,3kW chargers and the CAN controller to communicate with the charge station. I decided to have the latter because I don‘t want to fumble around with manipulated cables and stuff. Just plug in, charge and enjoy a coffe ; :D
Note: The CAN controller is only used for the control pilot (CP) signal between the charge station and the charger to negotiate charging power! It does NOT communicate with the bike.
The bellypan solution is nice when considering the used space but I wouldn‘t recommend putting ~750W waste heat underneath the battery.
I didn't really know that there was this alternative available in Europe.
Luckily there is, because the european grid is significantly different from other power grids. Europe uses three phases with a phase shift of 120 degrees. Here in germany the asymmetric load is regulated to 4,6kW max (yes, we do have a thing with regulations in germany but I guess other european countries don‘t like asymmetric load either). Using the Zero charge tank you have an asymmetric load of 6kW because it uses only one phase. Every charge station is able to recognize the asymmetric load and some of them already stop charging in this case. When more electric vehicles hit the market and everyone charges here and there the others may get more intolerant as well. Lennarts charger uses three phases (two of them for the 3,3kW units and one for the onboard charger. Your asymmetric load is 2,0kW wich is perfectly fine. Since my onboard charger died I only use two phases and charge with an asymmetric load of 3,3kW (still within the regulation :P )
While everyone is looking for DC charging on Zeros I only have a small wish on my list: a 3 phase Zero charge tank that is suitable for the european grid.
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The bellypan solution is nice when considering the used space but I wouldn‘t recommend putting ~750W waste heat underneath the battery.
You mean... like Zero does it with the Calex directly mounted to the battery as a heat sink on all S/DS model bikes?
The bellypan we designed specifically had the hot side of the chargers facing AWAY from the battery. The pan was the heat sink.
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I suppose it's just a difference of what ambient temperature you expect to be charging at. Zero assumes overnight charging, so you'd usually want to retain the waste heat for the battery array then. But in the SR/F the assumed day charging, so they put fins on the battery.
-Crissa
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Explain how Zero's method is superior.
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Explain the reality you live where battery charging is not optimal at a temperature higher than the nominal average overnight temperature for when most of their customers live.
-Crissa
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You NEVER want to dump waste heat onto “a side” of the battery. Ever. If you’re going to heat the battery, do it evenly. Never bake a side. Detrimental to the battery health.
Even Zero engineers refer to the Calex as a “thermal nightmare”. This is battery 101.
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...Which is of course, perpendicular to the point I made.
Fun.
-Crissa
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No. You do not want to retain waste heat on the battery. You are talking nonsense.
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I still notice you've not answered my original point.
Why do you suppose that you're having this one sided argument? Go to the beach or something. They're open today.
-Crissa
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You mean... like Zero does it with the Calex directly mounted to the battery as a heat sink on all S/DS model bikes?
The bellypan we designed specifically had the hot side of the chargers facing AWAY from the battery. The pan was the heat sink.
Sorry MVetter, didn’t mean to offend someone. How many waste heat does Zeros Calex charger produce? The 1,3kW charger on my 2016 SR may had ~90W. A 3kW probably around 250W. Not nice but necessary. 750W on the other hand is a number. I‘m shure you put a lot of thoughts into it and measured the heat transported to the battery. Heat can move not only by convection but also by conduction and radiation. Meaning to say it‘ll find it’s way to heat up the battery. It’s (quite a lot) additional heat besides heat from charging, air temperature, solar radiation and heat that is already inside the battery from riding (hard).
I know that installation space is something that one doesn’t find easily on a motorcycle and no one else figured how to mount 9,9 kW on a zero for now. But in the end it is heat that one may wouldn’t want to have underneath the battery.
To make things clear: This is theory! The bike won‘t burn up and I doubt you could even specify the degradation of the battery by giving it „this bit of extra heat“. But it’s physics and the battery won’t like it very much.
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I don’t think you have any idea just how hot the calex gets while it bakes the bottom cells for 10+ hours at a time. If you don’t believe me, PLEASE use a FLIR camera. It will be enlightening.
I don’t deal in theories about this. I have measured data.
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Time is an important factor. If the efficiency is the same then the total waste heat energy output will be the same whether you're charging to 100% in 1 hour or 10. The difference is the Diginow puts some (most?) of that heat into the belly pan where it can be more easily radiated to the surrounding air.
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I eventually bought a Mennekes-C13 cable and it works great.
The only problem is that, obviously, the motorcycle side cable can be extracted by any attacker and this worries me a little.
However, I am studying a way to prevent this from happening and I have some ideas to improve
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Why would they want to steal a specialized cable?
If they're willing to attack the bike, what would a lock do to prevent it?
-Crissa
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Doesn't the Mennekes connector lock into the station until the charge has been paid for? I've only used a free station so far so of course I could just pull it out after pressing the end button.
I would guess he's more worried about getting back to the bike and it's not as charged as he was expecting. If what I said above is true then someone unplugging it so they can charge instead won't happen. If someone is going to unplug it just to be an arsehole then they're probably the type to kick the connector if it was a locking one, or spit on your seat, or let down your tyres, or one of the many other ways in which bikes are vulnerable to vandalism.
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How many waste heat does Zeros Calex charger produce? The 1,3kW charger on my 2016 SR may had ~90W. A 3kW probably around 250W.
I've recently bought a Zero SR with a charge tank, and I downloaded the MBB logfile so that I could see the difference it made to battery temperature when using the charge tank. It seems that using the standard 1.3kW on board charger heats the battery up more than the 6kW charge tank charger for a simllar (or greater) amount of charge. So it seems to be better for the battery to use the faster charge tank charger. There's a gap between the top of the battery pack and the charge tank, so even when the cooling fan is going full pelt it doesn't seem to add much heat to the battery pack, unlike the 1.3kW charger which is mounted under the battery pack and which conducts heat directly to the battery pack. Maybe I'll use the 1.3kW charger in the colder winter months, although if it's too cold I won't be riding the bike anyway!
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Before buying the Mennekes-C13 cable I did a lot of regulatory research.
From the point of view of safety I should be in compliance with the law because I load in the so-called "Simplified Mode 3", while I have not yet understood whether there is an obligation to have the cable blocked on both sides. In fact, leaving a detachable cable in a public place leaves me a little perplexed, but maybe I worry too much.
As for the vandals, I hope that even a cable tie or something similar can perhaps dissuade them from the irresistible temptation to unplug a cable :D
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Did a Google at it turns out there are locking C13 connectors. Not locking as in they require a key, you just need to push a button to pull it out, but if that was painted black or they just didn't notice it that might dissuade them. Might get one and require my cable just so I know that connection is secure, once my bike didn't charge to 100% and I think it was because the cable worked loose enough to lose connection but not enough to fall out.