ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Eccelerate on July 07, 2020, 03:22:35 PM
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I purchased a 2020 FX with two removable battery modules in October 2019. I have driven 2450 miles on it, and have had the following issues:
The motor replaced 3 times under warranty, and one time "recalibrated" after being stranded each time
I upgraded to the chain kit after the belt broke (long tow from a KTM back to staging area)
The drive sprocket that came with the chain kit "shattered", according to the dealership mechanic, which necessitated one of the motor replacements due to spline damage. It happened after driving over a small pothole on a dirt road at 50 mph.
9 spokes broke on the rear wheel, then a week after replacing them, 3 more spokes broke. A full set of spokes are on order (not a warranty item).
One of my batteries stopped working, and dealership was unable to "login" to the battery and obtain fault information. Currently waiting for Zero to respond to multiple phone calls placed by my dealership.
Both my mirrors became loose and won't tighten, so i removed them (one of them I damaged when I dropped the bike).
The battery retainer piece that has a lock on it fell off 3 times while riding, and 3 times I recovered it the next day. The latch frequently needs to be adjusted and monitored.
I've lost my license plate twice, due to rear tire contacting the license plate when suspension is compressed.
I dropped the bike once attempting a hill climb on a rocky trail, so forward speed was almost zero, and this caused:
All six screw fasteners broke on the hole side of the fasteners that hold the upper and lower rear fender together and attached to the frame
The rear upper/outer fender broke in half
Rear turn signal broke off
License plate snapped off
Horn bent and disconnected
Seat bolt on one side stripped the nut part that is welded to the frame
Speedometer sensor wire cut to front wheel
For the 9 months I've had the bike, over half of the days the bike was at the dealership waiting for parts and service (including 1 1/2 months waiting for dealership to reopen after COVID-19 outbreak). Does this sound excessive? I'm hoping a reasonable person would agree so that I can return it for a refund. I love the acceleration, the stealth, the attention, the lack of oil changes and gas station stops. But for nearly $15,000 for a dual sport dirt bike, it is not living up to expectations, and I cannot put faith that the sprocket will not fail again causing another motor replacement, or some other part to fail. I ride it about 50/50 offroad every day it is not in the shop, including in the desert like today when it was 109 degrees. I know it's only a matter of a short time before my next stranding experience. I carry extra drinks, an emergency locator beacon (never used), and try to ride with friends when venturing farther into the desert than I am prepared to walk. I miss my KTM 500EXC that was stolen after 3rd catastrophic engine failure in 3 years left me stranded on side of freeway 2 miles from home. The KTM's reliability looks quite superior to Zero FX in retrospect. Hopefully Zero works out the bugs by the time I've worn out my future 790 Adventure R into the dust.
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This doesn't sound like a lemon, this sounds like you beat the poor thing to pieces.
-Crissa
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I agree. I don't think the FX is the bike for you. Perhaps a cheap used ICE motorcycle that is designed primarily for off-road riding would be a better choice.
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Good grief! I'm pretty sure I would be in the hospital long before I could do this much damage to my FXS.
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Like, spokes, I've broken mountain bike spokes, and once you start breaking more than one at a time, you start breaking them all. And if you're bottoming out the suspension, you're doing massive damage to the bike, it doesn't matter which bike it is, that's when you're going outside its capabilities.
I'm surprised with that much damage the frame is intact.
And the FX isn't a dual-sport. The swappable batteries are meant to be used from a base camp. If the clips are breaking, yeah, that's no good, but...
Ouch.
And I've put that much mileage on my S since I got it, and I got it just before the 20s came into the local shop.
-Crissa
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I think you guys are being a bit harsh in some regards. Yes the damage from the drop is definitely to be expected, no bike is designed to be dropped and cages and other crash protection exist for a reason. However, the FX is a dual sport and is designed for some harsh off road use. Light bottoming of the suspension shouldn't cause any damage (they have bottoming bumpers for this reason) and parts definitely shouldn't be contacting on full compression. To pop 9 spokes in one hit I'd expect it to be a big enough pothole that the rim is also totalled, if it wasn't then it's more likely to be a tension issue and the fault of whoever built the wheel. Sprockets also shouldn't be shattering no matter what you do, but that could either be a manufacturing defect or improper installation (either causing damage to it or it coming loose).
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Breaking the plate off when bottoming out doesn't sound light to me, that sounds like kicking it full force.
And mirrors have always been a bit of a consumable for offroading.
-Crissa
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It's not the force of the plate hitting the tyre that breaks it, it gets caught in the tread as the wheel turns and pulled forward. I busted one of my L plates in the same way after fitting my tail tidy and had to bend it up to clear. Looking at this image it does look quite close, a metal yank plate would probably be fine (unless it's already bent forward) but if it's a larger and more flexible Euro style plastic one (like mine) I can imagine it flexing closer to the tyre. I'm really surprised Zero didn't fit it with a fender extension like the S/DS.
(https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i6V1NYX7oeNE/v1/1000x-1.jpg)
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I miss my KTM 500EXC that was stolen after 3rd catastrophic engine failure in 3 years left me stranded
Between this quote and all the Zero stuff you posted, I have to ask, do you beat the sh*t out of your motorcycles? Just sayin'
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If you want durability buy an Alta.
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I miss my KTM 500EXC that was stolen after 3rd catastrophic engine failure in 3 years left me stranded
Between this quote and all the Zero stuff you posted, I have to ask, do you beat the sh*t out of your motorcycles? Just sayin'
Yeah, averaging 1 catastrophic engine failure a year leads me to believe OP is unlike 99% of the population in terms of riding OR is the most unlucky person on the planet. A well maintained dirt bike can generally take a ton of abuse.
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The FX is a great urban warrior, but not such a good choice for this type of hard riding. That was Alta's territory. The belt break was predictable and avoidable. The sprocket breaking is crazy. Three motor replacements and bad battery are crazy.
Zero does need to harden up some things. They can move the horn inward another 1" to 2". The battery bracket is pretty chintzy and exposed. There is minimal protection around the seat bolts. Spokes should not break on new bikes (mine broke too, 4 years ago). The license plate should not be able to hit the rear wheel. The wheel sensor wire should be better protected/routed.
Other issues are typical problems with dual sports. My KTM 350 EXC whole rear end was hanging loose after its first adventure. Turn signals and mirrors and floppy fenders with dangling license plates are a consequence of DOT rules. Dual sporters commonly have to deal with these or spend a lot on modifications: fender eliminators, skid plates, pipe guards, rotor guards, mini mirrors, etc. My KTM 500 EXC stranded me with a burned valve at 9,200 miles.
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Just an update after picking my bike up from the dealership today. First, thanks for all the comments. I'm glad at least a couple other owners agree on some areas for improvement. And I agree, the mirrors, fenders, turn signals, and belt drive all could be considered consumable, and I'll take responsibility, because those are not my primary complaint. Today I found out Zero denied my warranty claim to replace the battery which won't accept a charge. Yes the battery with the big yellow decal that says 5 year warranty on the side. The only explanation provided was denied due to damage. Nothing specific, and no option to service the battery. According to Zero, my only option is to buy a new battery for $2895. I tried to argue, that if there is damage to the battery, then without knowing any details about what specific damage they are referring to, then wouldn't the most likely cause of damage to the battery be related to the 3 motor failures that were replaced under warranty, as opposed to something that I could do to the battery as the operator? The motor is the consumer of the battery output, and if the motor failed 3 times (one time it started to run the bike in reverse, and another time the temperature indicator would skyrocket as soon as the throttle was applied without power going to the wheels, so internal short with excessive battery drain to instantly overheat..) those correlate as related to the battery where failure of motor could cause damage to battery., How could I as user damage the battery? Sure there are a few minor scratches on the case, but there are no cracks, and no specific damage cited by Zero. I could swallow my anger and frustration, had they denied my claim because of something specific, such as had they found evidence I performed deep water crossings, or rode in the rain, or rode when it was 110 degrees, had any of those reasons be listed in the Owner's manual as abuse, and had there been evidence I committed those acts. But there is nothing in the manual describing limitations that I exceeded. I actually drive the bike pretty tame compared to the advertising videos. I don't jump the bike, ride wheelies, or do burnouts. I ride as fast as I can on trails, which is about half the speed of the marketing videos (I'm 56 years old and only been riding for 4 years.) I haven't been injured on the Zero, and the only damage I did to the bike was cosmetic and those consumables. I probably do ride it harder than most riders, and I can keep up with some of the riders half my age, but I don't think I deserve this treatment from Zero. The Zero FX would be the perfect bike for me, if only it would live up to what it is marketed as.. a dual sport that kicks the pants off of the KTM E-XC. And Alta went out of business, so not a viable option. Zero might be heading towards the same fate unless they make some improvements, starting with building trust in their brand. Right now, on a scale of 1 to 10, based on my experience... well a lot can be said in just a name, and maybe the name speaks for itself. ha ha.. ok not funny.
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I would think to deny you a warranty claim they would need to provide specific details of the damage, prove it was caused by you and not a fault with the machine, and prove that it is the cause of the battery failure.
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Depends upon the state, but yes, in California they have to exactly show what is damaged and why.
-Crissa
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I have been watching this thread and cannot believe the problems the OP has been having with both the motorcycle and now with Zero. I had a new Zero and yes I had several problems with it but nothing like the problems this guy has had. My dealer and Zero handled each issue to my satisfaction until we reached an amicable resolution. At no point was there ever any mention of a refusal to warrant anything on the bike. Except for the time involved in getting everything sorted out, Zero was very proactive in the solution of the issues including paying to ship the entire motorcycle across the country to be serviced at the factory. There are two sides to every story and we are only hearing one here. Although I was disappointed in the operation of the motorcycle I had purchased, I was never disappointed with the support and service I received from both my dealer and Zero motorcycles during the entire process. I would not be opposed to purchase another Zero product in the future based on past dealings with Zero and their representatives.
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The motor controller mediates power delivery from the battery to the motor completely. Motors should not inherently be able to break a battery. Something about how that battery module was operated or exposed to the environment would more likely be the issue.
I have plenty of criticisms for Zero, especially regarding their owners manual, and they should provide more material justification for their decision, including pointing out what evidence (logs, etc) they used.
But it very much sounds from your first post like you beat both of your bikes destructively, and need to learn to appreciate the limits of the vehicles you're given. If you ride a machine to its limits consistently, it will break.
The FX in no way that I've ever noticed is marketed as some kind of KTM equivalent. KTM has its own reputation, and KTM bikes do break. Marketing is an impression, anyway, not some kind of hard claim.
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Topic is a little old now but I agree with Eccelerate about there being inherent problems and the possibility his bike is a lemon. The bike is on warranty and had major power train issues and it sounds like zero didn't really look into it or attempt to learn from the experience. I've talked to zero customer service twice and although they were fairly courteous, they were also unhelpful and didn't show interest in understanding the situation.
I converted my 2017 FX to be more capable as a dirt bike. It has been a partial success and I really enjoy riding it. Maybe I don't ride it as hard as Eccelerate rides his, but I haven't had power train problems so far.
With the Yamaha electric dirt bike announcement and other big motorcycle brands seeing the possibilities for electric dirt bikes, there should be some good options pretty soon.
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I think the trustwothiness of your dealer counts a lot. I had lots if issues with a dealer focussed on sales, not long term customer satisfaction. Since Zero models have some defects, not so well train service teams and a thin supply chain the lesson is : do lots of due diligences on the dealer, and unless you are ready to fix your bike yourself, avoid bad or even average dealers.
I have been watching this thread and cannot believe the problems the OP has been having with both the motorcycle and now with Zero. I had a new Zero and yes I had several problems with it but nothing like the problems this guy has had. My dealer and Zero handled each issue to my satisfaction until we reached an amicable resolution. At no point was there ever any mention of a refusal to warrant anything on the bike. Except for the time involved in getting everything sorted out, Zero was very proactive in the solution of the issues including paying to ship the entire motorcycle across the country to be serviced at the factory. There are two sides to every story and we are only hearing one here. Although I was disappointed in the operation of the motorcycle I had purchased, I was never disappointed with the support and service I received from both my dealer and Zero motorcycles during the entire process. I would not be opposed to purchase another Zero product in the future based on past dealings with Zero and their representatives.
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I purchased a 2020 FX with two removable battery modules in October 2019. I have driven 2450 miles on it, and have had the following issues:
Eccelerate, Sorry to hear of your far too common problems. If you'd like to send us a detailed overview and any available logs we can work wit you in determining if the FX meets the criteria of a lemon or defective vehicle. It certainly appears to. If it is indeed the case we will be glad to provide you a letter stating that as the largest distributor /dealer of Zero Motorcycles for 5+ years ... you can email us at zero@emoto.co.il Best of luck and be careful.
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You're scaring the hell out of me. I have less than 200 miles on my 2020 FX which I bought to explore Mount Shasta CA logging and Forest Service Roads with. I would not be a happy camper if I broke down out in the wilderness.
I did give it a pretty good test climbing 4700 feet to 7800' from McCloud to the Old Ski Bowl taking a dirt road from the new ski area to the Everitt Memorial Highway and looping back through Mt Shasta City on 89. I went 46 miles with 44% left.
I've attached the GPS file. The FX is nice on pavement but I trust my 2019 Yamaha TW a lot more off road. I think I'm going to stay in cell phone range which is pretty good up there even at 8500 feet at the Clear Creek Trail Head .
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That's the point of AutoE's posts, to scare you.
Eccelerate seems to just kill bikes so I'm not sure how to judge that. If their experience was more common we'd probably have alot more threads like this.
-Crissa
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Zero's defect rate is sky high. In Israel over 80% of Zero's required new batteries, over 15% new motors, ...
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Good Point Crissa. Wouldn't Zero owners in Israel be posting problems on this forum? At any rate, I am an extremely cautious rider out to enjoy the solitude and beauty of the Mt Shasta. Using Topfusion to view the GPX file from my Garmin it said that I averaged 23 mph on that ride and that includes 12 miles on 89 which has a 65 mph speed limit. I rode my TW less than 500 miles in the last year so if I have problems with my FX then Zero has big problems. As long as Zero keeps selling bikes they will keep us happy. Especially with the communications owners have on forums like this one.
By the way, Topofusion is a great piece of SW written by mountain bikers from I think New Mexico. I've logged and saved most of my mountain bike and dirt bike rides for the last 10 or 15 years using it. It downloads your ride from Garmins and other GPSs, reads GPX files and displays them on a bunch of online maps. Give it a try for free.
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That's the point of AutoE's posts, to scare you.
Eccelerate seems to just kill bikes so I'm not sure how to judge that. If their experience was more common we'd probably have alot more threads like this.
-Crissa
I'd go a bit farther, and say that AutoE's goal is to exact revenge after his distributor status was abruptly terminated under mysterious(to us) conditions. It seems Israeli owners are happy enough with Metro Motors.
It's not like Israel gets special bikes, if the defect rate was actually that high we'd have a lot more aggravated customers and Zero would probably be defunct.
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One of my Zeros is a 2013 5.7. I got it about a year old. The previous owner while probably not trashing it, probably didn't baby it either.
Batteries are getting tired but other than that, no real problems. The 2020 should be much improved.
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All good news that makes me feel a lot better. Thanks.
I think I'll keep the bike out of the soft stuff and stay on more civilized roads up there. I doubt I have the strength to get it back up again if I tip over. That's what the TW is for.
The good news is that the paved Forest Service Road in the Shasta Trinity NF are almost devoid of traffic. There is some really nice riding around the Medicine Lake area. Especially, Little Glass Mountain. I highly recommend the view from the Little Mount Hoffman Fire Lookout.
The bad news is that all the fires in California have made it so riding is not something you want to do much of.
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Yeah. Can I have a helmet that fits p100 filters, pls?
The ride to evacuate was pretty unpleasant.
-Crissa
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Very sorry to hear that Crissa.
Hope everything turns out well for you and everyone else in our poor state.
Take care.
-Chris
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Want to second the best wishes to all affected by the fires.
I have a 2019 FX and as a mtn. bike replacement started out on the trails. Granted, I'm mostly doing easy-going sight seeing but the FX regularly took me 30+ miles out and back to the middle of nowhere on some pretty sketchy surfaces with no problems.
So, I'm in the camp of having learned to trust the bike. It gets the job done.
My impression is that this thread is based on extreme treatment, and maybe some tech issues.
Yeah, I've broken spokes and bones on my mtn. bike; so I have some sense of what it would take to do the same on the FX.
And the noise about failure rates is clearly just that, noise. Dealers? Yeah, well, dealer quality varies . . .
Hopefully the air clears up soon and everyone's enjoying the ride again. Cheers.
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That's the point of AutoE's posts, to scare you.
Eccelerate seems to just kill bikes so I'm not sure how to judge that. If their experience was more common we'd probably have alot more threads like this.
-Crissa
If you wish to be scared do your own research. Perhaps Crissa might explain why is it with less than 1000 annual sales in the lower 48, there are routinely over 25 Zero's to be found in salvage auctions?
Israelis rarely post as they lack English skills and many fear diminishing the value of their vehicles.
FuN FaCTs the battery replacement rate in Israel is over 80%. The S/DS charger replacement rate in Israel is over 60%.
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You know, the big issue with the Zeros, and EVs in general, is that there is much made of the incredibly small number of "moving parts"... (BMS, charger, battery, motor) but unfortunately these parts are not especially reliable or rugged, and when a small bit of one of those parts malfunctions, it usually requires replacing the entire unit, at a four figure cost.
Cas :)
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That's the point of AutoE's posts, to scare you.
Eccelerate seems to just kill bikes so I'm not sure how to judge that. If their experience was more common we'd probably have alot more threads like this.
-Crissa
If you wish to be scared do your own research. Perhaps Crissa might explain why is it with less than 1000 annual sales in the lower 48, there are routinely over 25 Zero's to be found in salvage auctions?
I suppose doing our own research is the only option as you refuse to provide any proof yourself. There are currently 2 Zeros on IAA, a 2014 and a 2018. Both are on there due to collision damage, unsurprisingly this is a common reason for motorcycles to go to salvage. Pretty sure all of the 4 or 5 bikes that Rich Rebuilds salvage had crash damage and they weren't particularly new bikes either.
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I have owned three Zeros, a 2012, 2014 and 2018. Other than an on-board charger failure on both the 2014 and 2018, I have had absolutely no problems with my Zeros.
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Obviously I have no more proof than AutoE, but the most common things I replace by a long shot are chargers, DCDCs, a few BMSes, and a few batteries. Most of the batteries are old and are usually replaced under warranty.
No way it's anywhere near the percentages he stated.