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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on July 13, 2020, 03:41:36 AM
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Bad news for me this afternoon I believe. I had my Zero plugged in and charging after going for a ride today. After charging fine from 44% SOC to 69% SOC, the bike stopped charging, the screen went blank and I smelled an odd smell, kind of like garlic in my garage. Trying to plug it in again gives no results. The bike turns on normally with the key and the Zero app shows no warnings. Does this sound like a burned out charger? So far my only experience with a charger failure was on my 2014 S when it slowly refused to charge to 100% over a period of a couple of years. This is the first time I have experienced what I guess is a complete charger failure since my first 2009 Electric Motosport GPR-S. Does it sound like a replacement charger is in my future? :(
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Garlic? O-o
-Crissa
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After charging fine from 44% SOC to 69% SOC, the bike stopped charging, the screen went blank and I smelled an odd smell, kind of like garlic in my garage. Trying to plug it in again gives no results. The bike turns on normally with the key and the Zero app shows no warnings. Does this sound like a burned out charger?
Yes, very much so. Perhaps an electrolytic capacitor exploded inside the charger and they smell like hell and normally cause a short circuit that blows out other components.
A Delta Q-charger should still work fine if you turn on the key for a few seconds to close the contactor. Then you can take the key out. You will have an alarm, but you can ignore it and charge at 1 KW (the OBC is 1.4 KW), so the Delta Q-charger will be a little slower.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Unfortunately, I never invested in a Delta Q. But I do have experience replacing the stock charger, so it is off to AF1 to buy another one. After all, it is only money. Still, I really wish that Zero could do something to improve the reliability of their stock on-board chargers. These things have been failing since at least 2014, with multiple revisions to the charger package. All these revisions to the model numbers don't seem to help much. I really think it is about time Zero seeks out another vendor. ::)
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Unfortunately, I never invested in a Delta Q. But I do have experience replacing the stock charger, so it is off to AF1 to buy another one. After all, it is only money. Still, I really wish that Zero could do something to improve the reliability of their stock on-board chargers. These things have been failing since at least 2014, with multiple revisions to the charger package. All these revisions to the model numbers don't seem to help much. I really think it is about time Zero seeks out another vendor. ::)
The main problem probably is that it is quite difficult to design a 1.4 KW OBC that is small and light, especially when not cooled by a fan or whatever. The Delta Q chargers are in a bigger package, weight more and are only 1.0 KW. Therefore the Delta-Qs are much more reliable than the OBC. The first thing they could do to design a more reliable OBC is to lower the charge rate in the same size package. IOW, there will be trade-offs in an attempt to make them more reliable, such as taking more time to charge or a larger heavier package, etc.
I would expect the OBC to be the weak point on a Zero because it runs at high power, is not cooled while charging and that means there will be a lot heat. The heat slowly cooks the guts of the OBC.
If they could only increase the efficiently so the OBC won't get as hot internally. But that probably won't be by much during our lifetimes.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The OBC is already very efficient, more than some of the best computer power supplies out there (92/94% at full load). Heat output is only around 100W which would be very easy to actively cool and even passively cooling shouldn't be too difficult. I find it hard to believe that it's the heat that's killing chargers unless it's exacerbating a pre-existing fault, other components that are either defective or just inadequate.
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The OBC is already very efficient, more than some of the best computer power supplies out there (92/94% at full load). Heat output is only around 100W
Yes, that was why I said it is unlikely to get much more efficient during our lifetimes. Not much room for major improvements.
which would be very easy to actively cool and even passively cooling shouldn't be too difficult. I find it hard to believe that it's the heat that's killing chargers unless it's exacerbating a pre-existing fault, other components that are either defective or just inadequate.
Heat, by far, is the major problem (https://element5digital.com/heat-has-a-negative-affect-on-electronics/)with electronics that operate at higher powers.
Making that "adequate" usually means larger. That is an issue on a motorcycle. I assume it already has a lot of passive cooling inside, such as heat sinks on the hottest components. Active cooling would be better, but that too has issues. Such as the AC charger fan that just crapped out in my Energica. The very first thing to fail in my Energica.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Yes it's going to get warm and yes more heat is worse than less heat, but that doesn't mean that's what's killing them. Every single electronic device gets hot. By adequate I mean components that are rated for the temperature inside the charger, such as caps (higher rated caps don't need to be larger), and can operate within spec at those temperatures.
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Do the new SR/F and SR/S models use the same charger? If so, I would think that it is only a matter of time before their owners start needing to order replacement chargers. :o However, these things seem to be able to last past the 2-year warranty period, so maybe there is no incentive for Zero or their supplier (Calex?) to make any changes. ::)
Anyway, other than the cost, the only tough part about replacing the charger is reconnecting the connector at the right side of the bike. That thing is a real bitch to get a hold of securely enough to be able to force in the plug from the new charger, due to the fact that it is really jammed into the works.
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Yes it's going to get warm and yes more heat is worse than less heat, but that doesn't mean that's what's killing them. Every single electronic device gets hot. By adequate I mean components that are rated for the temperature inside the charger, such as caps (higher rated caps don't need to be larger), and can operate within spec at those temperatures.
Many items used within spec eventually fail. We don't live in a perfect world. I assume you know a good capacitor used at spec NEVER gets warm internally. Good capacitors cannot dissipate any heat at all. If they get warm, it's from the stuff around them or they have been shorted internally.
And of course not every failure is from heat. A strong ripple can destroy most electrolytic capacitors such as if a rectifier diode shorts out from a surge or whatever.
The only way to know for sure what happened is to get inside of it. But in such switching power supplies, the norm is when one part shorts out is it takes several other parts with it.
But sure, some components are better quality than others, but often the better ones are larger.
The norm is to have components run at 20% less of their maximum values. But there are still failures.
I expect no matter who makes those OBC's in that size package, there will still be failures.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Do the new SR/F and SR/S models use the same charger?
No. Your SR has a 1.4 KW charger. The SR/F and SR/S (standard models) use a 3.0 KW charger. The Premium SR/F and SR/S use a 6.0 KW charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Unfortunately, I never invested in a Delta Q.
I rarely will charge my Zeros with only the OBC. The idea is to use it as little as possible.
IMO, a Delta Q charger kinda pays for itself. It is much more reliable (has anybody here even heard of one failing)?
You can use it alone to charge your bike to save the usage of your OBC. Or reduce the time the OBC is on by also using the OBC when you're more in a hurry. I always connect up a couple of Delta Q's even when I have all night to charge. I don't want the OBC to be on much longer than really necessary. I normally use the OBC with the QCs, but it would probably be better if I didn't use the OBC at all until I really had to.
So far, no charger problems, I have more than 10,000 miles on each of my Zeros.
The only problems I have had so far, was a bad battery in my DS and an open ABS sensor on the front wheel of my SR.
BTW, those new brake pads you told me about are perfect! No trace of any squeak any more, no matter how I brake.
-Don- in hot (91° F.) Cold Springs Valley, NV
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Do the new SR/F and SR/S models use the same charger?
No. Your SR has a 1.4 KW charger. The SR/F and SR/S (standard models) use a 3.0 KW charger. The Premium SR/F and SR/S use a 6.0 KW charger.
-Don- Reno, NV
So you can not charge your SR/F or SR/S using a 120V home outlet? I would not have expected Zero designing a bike that did not have an L1 charging option. ???
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They come with a granny charger (not really a charger but an adapter), like a lot of electric cars.
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They come with a granny charger (not really a charger but an adapter), like a lot of electric cars.
I hate to admit it but I don't know what a "granny charger" is. Is it a device that plugs into a US 120V outlet and converts it to something that the on-board 3 KW charger can use, like the standard S charger that will accept both 120V and 240V, but still charge at 13 amps? U.S. home power outlets are typically limited to 15-20 amps before blowing a circuit breaker.
Or is a granny charger a separate off-board charger like a Delta-Q that you would have to carry with you if you wanted to charge from a home outlet?
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I'm not 100% sure how they work but I assume it just steps 110v (or there abouts) up to the 240v that type 2 chargers use. Older models don't need it because they can accept 110v inputs (I think the range is something like 90-250v). That said models sold in 240v countries also come with the granny charger so perhaps it does something else as well, otherwise those would just come with a mains to Mennekes cable.
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So you can not charge your SR/F or SR/S using a 120V home outlet? I would not have expected Zero designing a bike that did not have an L1 charging option. ???
AFAIK, all EVs can charge with 120 VAC at home. But some, such as the Energica, Harley LW, Zero SR/S and Zero/SR/F make it rather difficult to charge on the road with anything other than J-1772 and in the case of the Energica and LW, also CCS.
Who wants to bring a 20 foot long thick cable to charge with from an AC outlet? Not me. But such works great at home for either 120 VAC or 240 VAC outlets.
But I modified mine into motorcycle versions. I often take a group ride and we often stop in Genoa, NV and other places that only have AC outlets. While we are BSing, I want to be charging. Genoa has two 240 VAC outlets, so I can charge there at 3 KW, but even the 1.5 KW from a 120 VAC outlet is better than nothing when at many other places. I may only get a one mile charge, but that is one mile I won't have to walk with the bike!
I have my SR set up to charge as much as 8.4 KW at home (even more than the SR/S and SR/F premium) but at 6.3 KW with a couple of external chargers that I can now use with a granny cable, but I could have just as easily made my own cables as no granny cable is really necessary to charge it from outlets. But this way, I always use a J-1772 type plug to plug in instead of a bunch of cables, regardless if I charge from a 120 VAC outlet or a 240 VAC outlet or a J1772. It will always plug in the same way near the bike. And if something is wrong where the bike is not charging, I can check the lights on the granny cable unit to see where the problem is.
Even the Tesla comes with a granny cable, so if I have three days to charge, I can get a full charge from a 120 VAC outlet. BTW, that will work for me, because I only rarely drive my Tesla. It normally just sits in the garage while I ride my bikes almost every day.
And even when I go grocery shopping, I normally take my ICE pick-up truck. And when I come up here (20 miles north of my Reno house) I almost always take my DS.
-Don- in 96° F. Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I'm not 100% sure how they work but I assume it just steps 110v (or there abouts) up to the 240v that type 2 chargers use. Older models don't need it because they can accept 110v inputs (I think the range is something like 90-250v). That said models sold in 240v countries also come with the granny charger so perhaps it does something else as well, otherwise those would just come with a mains to Mennekes cable.
They work pretty much the same way. The EV AC OB chargers are designed to go up to 250 VAC and they are designed in such a way as the voltage goes up, the current goes down, so it doesn't go over the wattage rating of the AC charger, until around 250 volts. Much voltage above that will fry the AC chargers.
Some people in this forum seem to think otherwise as there are a lot of power supplies these days designed for a world market than DO work like the Zero chargers. Such as for computers. But don't bet your equipment on such, read the specs BEFORE using ANYTHING on 240 VAC that you have been using with 120 VAC in the past.
By far, not all power supplies work this way. Not even all switching power supplies. I have a 120 VAC 50 amp 12 volt (600W) switching power supply for my ham radio gear that will destroy itself if it has above 135 VAC going in. It's designed for 100 to 125 VAC ONLY.
EV AC chargers are designed for a wide range of voltages for both convenience as well as the world market.
Granny cables do almost nothing at all. You put in 120 VAC and get out 120 VAC. Put in 240 VAC and get out 240 VAC from the same granny cable. Its real purpose is to convert outlets to J-1772, along with lights and such to let you know what is going on.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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I forgot the SR/F still has the J port in the US, was thinking it was Mennekes only and assumed it would only take 240v as that's what level 2 stations put out.
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Granny cables does one thing over just a cable: Tell the car's charger what amperage is safe to charge at. Just like any AC charging station would do.
-Crissa
Just because the charger takes 240 doesn't mean it's stepping 120 to 240.
The charger needs to take whatever the input voltage is and change it to the operating voltage of the battery and convert it to DC as well.
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I forgot the SR/F still has the J port in the US, was thinking it was Mennekes only and assumed it would only take 240v as that's what level 2 stations put out.
Unlike in Europe, homes use mostly 120 VAC here in the USA. But many, if not most, homes also have 240 VAC available for electric clothes driers, and home Air Conditioners and some other stuff. But some homes only have 120 VAC and use gas to heat. Others may only have the 240 hard wired to the A/C unit and nowhere else. But 240 VAC can be added to any home in the USA that has city AC power going to it. The 120 VAC just comes from the center tap of the 240 VAC transformer near the house, yet the 120 VAC is more commonly used here.
At worse case, if a house already has city supplied 120 VAC it only takes a phone call to an electrician to get 240 VAC installed here.
-Don- Reno, NV
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A house with only 120 at the box would be seriously uncommon. But not all houses have a 240 outlet, it's true.
-Crissa
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A house with only 120 at the box would be seriously uncommon. But not all houses have a 240 outlet, it's true.
-Crissa
My old house in South San Francisco had no 240 VAC at the box. I could see the other wire from the house transformer for the 240 VAC taped to the other two wires (for the 120 VAC) about half way to the house.
I never needed 240 VAC for anything in that house, so I never had it wired to the box. That job would be more difficult than most as an electrician would have to start near the house transformer.
-Don- Reno, NV
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A main breaker box without phases in it wouldn't be code.
And I'm not sure how long it wouldn't have been code, like fifty years at least.
-Crissa
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A house with only 120 at the box would be seriously uncommon. But not all houses have a 240 outlet, it's true.
-Crissa
My home uses gas to power the furnace, clothes drier, stove and the local politicians. I don't see anything like 240V in my breaker box. The homes in my subdivision were built by Alcoa Aluminum as cheaply as possible. (Hopefully I don't have aluminum electrical wiring.) I had some work performed along my foundation a few years ago and was surprised to see that the electrical service wires coming into my home from the PG&E utility box was direct-burial and not placed in conduit.
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A main breaker box without phases in it wouldn't be code.
And I'm not sure how long it wouldn't have been code, like fifty years at least.
-Crissa
My old SSF house was built in 1943. One of the few houses to be built in the middle of WW2.
-Don- Reno, NV
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You wouldn't see the 240 in the breaker box, as it would be behind the deadman's plate. Every other breaker would taps off the other phase on the main rail in the box.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMmUoZh3Hq4
-Crissa
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You wouldn't see the 240 in the breaker box, as it would be behind the deadman's plate. Every other breaker would taps off the other phase on the main rail in the box.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy0tKL1T7wFoYcxCe0xjN6Q
-Crissa
I don't think you sent the correct link there.
But at all three of my houses, there is 240 AC in my breaker boxes. I see it as much as I see the 120 VAC. The only difference is that the 240 VAC is on a ganged breaker so both legs of the 120 VAC (which is the 240 VAC) go off at the same time when the circuit breaker trips or is tuned off.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The 3kW charging module (Rapid Charge Module) on the FST platform (SRF and SRS) is a totally different vendor and technology generation (switching solid state power supply) than the Calex/GWP 1.3kW charger on the SDS platform (more analogous to a full wave bridge rectifier).
The Calex charger in addition is fully potted in rubber which makes heat dissipation problematic once a fault starts, and so the unit is not repairable. But from examining failed chargers (I depotted one by hand and checked on other failures), it seems like the component failures are induced.
I think the Calex chargers should be discontinued in favor of an adapted new generation charger like the RCM or TC’s HK-J unit with more inbound and outbound circuit protections. The weight savings alone would more than allow additional protective components to be installed to make these more robust in the wet, dirty, mechanically agitated environment that makes electric motorcycle charging actually pretty challenging to perform reliably over the long term.
Anyway, charger replacement is straightforward, but since you have a bike where a charger has gone bad, having an off board charger like the Quick Charger or a TC charger would probably be a good idea to reduce the cycling of the onboard charger so it lasts longer. Also, an off board charger won’t transmit heat into your monolith casing.
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I've fixed the video link. Man, I should just not trust the 'share' buttons, they often fail me.
-Crissa
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I have mentioned this before, but, from photos and personal experience I believe that the problem is that since everyone wants the bike to charge as fast as possible,
Zero puts as much into the charger that they feel that they can " safely " pull out. This is why the plug gets hot. If you look at photos of disassembled chargers on the
Unofficial Manual, you can see how much gets burned up inside. My 2016 SR had the stock charger replaced several times under warranty. I no longer use the stock
charger on 120V, only 240. If using 120V, I use a QuiQ charger. I will use the stock charger on my 2013 FX as it is only half the power of the SR. My 2014 S has not had
an issue and I charge it the same as my SR. If you have a Dedicated socket, then you can rewire it to provide 240V to the Standard outlet and you will be golden.
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I've fixed the video link. Man, I should just not trust the 'share' buttons, they often fail me.
-Crissa
He was not accurate when he said "all our boxes have 240 VAC". He has never been to my house in SSF.
There is no 240 VAC in that box anywhere. To get to 240 VAC at that house, you will need a 15 foot ladder.
But every house is 240 VAC at least close to it, because the 120 VAC is simply a centertap of the electric company power transformer near each house. The 120 VAC is made at the house property connection, it doesn't come from the power company as 120 VAC.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I have mentioned this before, but, from photos and personal experience I believe that the problem is that since everyone wants the bike to charge as fast as possible,
Zero puts as much into the charger that they feel that they can " safely " pull out. This is why the plug gets hot. If you look at photos of disassembled chargers on the
Unofficial Manual, you can see how much gets burned up inside. My 2016 SR had the stock charger replaced several times under warranty. I no longer use the stock
charger on 120V, only 240. If using 120V, I use a QuiQ charger. I will use the stock charger on my 2013 FX as it is only half the power of the SR. My 2014 S has not had
an issue and I charge it the same as my SR. If you have a Dedicated socket, then you can rewire it to provide 240V to the Standard outlet and you will be golden.
If it's always the same component that craps out first, there are probably some small things they can do to increase reliability a little there, but to really increase the reliability of the charger would take more room and weight, or at least a fan and often the fans are not that reliable--first thing to crap out in my Energica. Or reduce its power output. No matter what is done, it will be at a cost. External chargers, such as the Delta Q's are more reliable for obvious reasons. Larger, weight more and have less output than the OBCs.
If the OBC's were more reliable, than Zero could be tempted to increase the output to get lower charge times, again making them less reliable but probably better for sales as we like to look at specs and reliability is rarely listed as a spec.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The 3kW charging module (Rapid Charge Module) on the FST platform (SRF and SRS) is a totally different vendor and technology generation (switching solid state power supply) than the Calex/GWP 1.3kW charger on the SDS platform (more analogous to a full wave bridge rectifier).
AFAIK, there is no way possible that the 1.3KW charger is just a full wave bridge or just a rectifier circuit. If it were, then it would blow up at 240 VAC if it also worked on 120 VAC.
Without any evidence showing otherwise, I will assume all the EV chargers are made from switching-mode power supplies as they are the only type of power supplies (AFAIK) that can reduce the current as the voltage is increased, so you get your 1.3 KW with any voltage between 100 and 240 VAC.
If it were just a simple circuit, with 240 VAC you would get 2.6 KW out of that 1.3 KW charger, for perhaps two seconds or so before something gives out and permanently damages the charger.
Is there a schematic of the Caltax charger somewhere? I assume it too is a switching power supply type of charger as I see no other possibility of how it can accept any voltage from 100 to 240 VAC with no increase in power.
As you know, volts times amps is watts, and from that it proves what happens:
120 VAC times 11 amps=1,320 watts.
In a normal linear power supply/ charger circuit at 240 VAC this will happen:
240 VAC times 11 amps=2,640 watts from a 1.3 KW charger. It blows out in seconds.
It's even a lot more severe than that, as a circuit will normally draw MORE current as the voltage is increased (voltage squared over the resistance in ohms=watts) so in reality you're even well over that 2.64 KW on that 1.3 KW charger.
But with the Calex charger, we know the current goes down with more voltage to keep the wattage constant, so it cannot go over the 1.3 KW rating of the charger. So if not a type of switching power supply, that can be designed to do such, how do they do it?
-Don- Reno, NV
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He was not accurate when he said "all our boxes have 240 VAC". He has never been to my house in SSF.
...And he covers that. You had a very nonstandard installation which is not code and no longer considered safe. So it's very rare.
-Crissa
And for the nth time, how you describe watts is not how wattage of components work.
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You had a very nonstandard installation which is not code and no longer considered safe. So it's very rare.
It met code for 1943 and that is all that was required in a 1943 house. Very few houses in CA meet the current codes for 2020. In fact, don't all new houses in CA have to now come ready for a L2 EV charger by code?
Yep, I just looked it up. (https://electrek.co/2020/01/15/international-code-council-calls-for-all-new-homes-to-be-ready-for-240-volt-ev-charging/) And since 2015. So most houses built before 2015 are not meeting 2020 codes.
And for the nth time, how you describe watts is not how wattage of components work.
Which part was not accurate, IYO?
-Don- Reno, NV
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Oh, look, another semantic argument derailing a thread. Please, this dilutes the value of the thread and the forum when people quibble.
This thread is about the charger. Take it offline or somewhere else.
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This thread is about the charger.
And so was my message.
-Don-
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The 3kW charging module (Rapid Charge Module) on the FST platform (SRF and SRS) is a totally different vendor and technology generation (switching solid state power supply) than the Calex/GWP 1.3kW charger on the SDS platform (more analogous to a full wave bridge rectifier).
AFAIK, there is no way possible that the 1.3KW charger is just a full wave bridge or just a rectifier circuit. If it were, then it would blow up at 240 VAC if it also worked on 120 VAC.
Try posting something useful for a change by examining my toasted charger from my 2016 DSR and assessing how it works and what components are identifiable:
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Calex_Charger/Damage_Report
If you want, I still have this in my garage for closer examination. I'm here to corroborate findings, not just to believe whatever someone claims.
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Try posting something useful for a change by examining my toasted charger from my 2016 DSR and assessing how it works and what components are identifiable:
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Gen2/Calex_Charger/Damage_Report
If you want, I still have this in my garage for closer examination. I'm here to corroborate findings, not just to believe whatever someone claims.
Thanks for that. It proves beyond any possible doubt that it is indeed a switching power supply used as a charger. The coils and IC's are more than enough to prove such.
But it is difficult to tell what failed first by those photos, because many things fried at once, which is the norm for switching power supply failures. When one part shorts out, it usually takes at least a half dozen other parts with it. The most common failures are shorted diodes and the next most common are electrolytic capacitors shorting out. But it's usually difficult to even tell what blew first between those two, because a shorted capacitor can blow a diode from the overload and a shorted diode can short out an electrolytic capacitor from the excessive ripple.
The third most common failure would be the high power transistors (underside photo, the two items with three leads each under the small heat sink, but I see nothing burnt in that area on yours).
-Don- Reno, NV
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I am looking again at your charger and have a question, since I cannot see in 3-D here.
Near the top of your "topside" board, just a little left of center, to the right and just above the worse part of the burnt board (to the right and just above the burn) , I see two round items next to each other.
About how high are they? I am trying to figure out what those two components are, as they look almost flat here since I cannot see it in 3D.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Don’t tell me what it “proves”, tell me what you literally see. Identify components and functions like a professional and spell out why you infer what you do.
Give me this raw, literal assessment, and I’ll take closer photos and possibly dig up more.
I’ve listened to too many technicians and EEs with years of experience spout off about something they took a quick look at, and found through cross-interviewing that they were sometimes completely wrong, recklessly casual in their interpretation, or mostly just arrogant and condescendingly short.
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I'd just like to point out that just because a component failed because of heat or even caught fire doesn't mean it happened because the charger got too hot. Pretty much any electrical failure (except for perhaps a mechanical disconnect), no matter the cause, is going to result in an excess of heat. Take a hammer to a phone or pour water on a laptop and chances are you'll get smoke.
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tell me what you literally see.
I already did. So what more are you asking?
"Identify components and functions" I did some of that also. The two items I asked about, I am waiting for you on. If they are higher than they look, they are most likely electrolytic capacitors as the ones shown below.
Here is another switching power supply. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched-mode_power_supply#/media/File:ATX_power_supply_interior-1000px_transparent.png) You can see countless similarities between it and the OBC, such as the coils and ICs that I already mentioned. All it takes is a quick glance to tell if it's a switching or linear power supply (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply#/media/File:ACtoDCpowersupply.png). The designs are not even close between the two. Far less parts in the linear supply.
A switching power supply uses a high frequency (perhaps 500 Khz or higher) so the transformers / coils can be very small, yet be very efficient. And CAN (but not always) be designed for a wide input voltage range withOUT increasing the power, as with EV chargers such as a Zero SR/DS so it won't go over the power ratings of the 1.3 KW charger. Or can be designed to increase the power with more voltage, such as with the SR/F and SR/S so they can charge at 1.5 KW on 120 VAC but 3.0 (or 6KW with the premium models) at 240 VAC.
A linear power supply does not raise the frequency (usually 60 hz) and use large heavy transformers but are MUCH more reliable and even when they do crap out not as many parts are damaged. And have a very narrow input voltage range. And usually has FAR less components, but there are exceptions such as when needed for multiple heavy duty outputs. It is not possible to have the wide range of input voltages with a liner power supply without doing something such as changing a transformer tap on the input or something like that, which will NOT be automatic as it is on EV chargers.
So switching power supplies are the best for EV charging for many reasons, but linear supplies are a lot more reliable.
An old 12 volt car battery charger would be an example of a linear power supply. And they lasted forever, but were heavy and had only a few parts inside. Just one heavy transformer and a couple of rectifiers.
So what more do you want to know?
-Don- Reno, NV
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I'd just like to point out that just because a component failed because of heat or even caught fire doesn't mean it happened because the charger got too hot. Pretty much any electrical failure (except for perhaps a mechanical disconnect), no matter the cause, is going to result in an excess of heat. Take a hammer to a phone or pour water on a laptop and chances are you'll get smoke.
Yep! An electrical surge can blow a diode and then short out so many other parts it burns up the PC board, even if everything was nice and cool to start with.
But still less heat will usually help the OBC last longer, but there are always exceptions where something else can make it crap out. Possible even when new and cool, but less likely.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I appreciate the post, but I would like some claims that are easier for me to cite. So, I'm going to clean up and start over.
Your conclusion sounds valid but insufficiently explained. I need more than just "this looks like that, and it has ICs and coils, therefore".
I'll try to explain what I see, in order to establish a common frame of reference.
I'm assuming the board is laid out physically to maximize distance between heat-producing components, and that the routing roughly matches the component interaction/flow.
On the "topside" photo, I'll identify areas of components:
- On the AC input side (red/blue, rear left of the charger), there is a coil and then some Carli components that are likely power capacitors I can't find a photo match for.
- On the DC output side (red/black rear right of the charger), there is a capacitor bank.
- Under the heatsinks are presumably the core switching power supplies. I've uncovered them once and will try to do this more thoroughly to identify them.
- The 3 large capacitors in front are AiSHi LM series rated 450V (DC~) 330µF (datasheet at https://aishi.us/files/LM.pdf (https://aishi.us/files/LM.pdf))
So what more do you want to know?
I want to work out what each area of components performs, and what risks the board design is susceptible to, given the location of this fire within the subsystems.
If there's anything an owner can do to mitigate design weaknesses in the board, that would be helpful, and also if there's basically nothing the owner can do other than use contact cleaner on the inlet and grease around connections.
But it is difficult to tell what failed first by those photos, because many things fried at once, which is the norm for switching power supply failures. When one part shorts out, it usually takes at least a half dozen other parts with it. The most common failures are shorted diodes and the next most common are electrolytic capacitors shorting out. But it's usually difficult to even tell what blew first between those two, because a shorted capacitor can blow a diode from the overload and a shorted diode can short out an electrolytic capacitor from the excessive ripple.
That's the reason why the teardown doesn't label anything, because I can't triage that with as much damage as there is in the center.
For what it's worth, a teardown on this charger type is extremely rare. This might be our one chance to understand this problem and try to form a case to get Zero to obsolete this design in favor of something more robust (especially since this basic design was developed in 2013 for 2014+ models).
The third most common failure would be the high power transistors (underside photo, the two items with three leads each under the small heat sink, but I see nothing burnt in that area on yours)
Which area is that? I need specific labels somehow. Try taking one of the images and marking it up with colored rectangles and/or text. I can retrofit labels onto close-ups that I'm preparing for upload now.
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f there's anything an owner can do to mitigate design weaknesses in the board, that would be helpful, and also if there's basically nothing the owner can do other than use contact cleaner on the inlet and grease around connections.
I would say no, other than to use the OBC less. Use Delta Q-chargers more often, even if the OBC is also being used at the same time. That reduces the time the OBC is on. Or better yet, only use external chargers when possible. Save the OBC use for when there is no other way to charge.
There could be a few design changes in the OBC that will increase reliability. For an example, if a capacitor is rated at 100 "working volts DC" and the same capacitor has 80 VDC on it, but still commonly fails, they could put a 200 VDC "working voltage" capacitor in there instead and they just increased the reliability. But a 200 VDC capacitor will be larger than a 100 VDC capacitor at the same MFD value. If they do this with many parts, you now have a larger charger, so now a different design problem. As well as add a little more cost (but most of the parts in a switching power supply are very cheap anyway).
The Delta Q charger has more room to be more reliable. But it is still a switching power supply as are all EV chargers (AFAIK).
Capacitors don't get hot if they are good, so no issues with the spacing from such. But the higher wattage resistors and power transistors can get very hot, and the spacing of such can be important, especially if not cooled by some other means.
Burnt PC boards in switching power supplies is very common, as their design is such if one part shorts out from a failure, it causes a chain reaction that cause many other parts to fail and perhaps also short out and cause even more parts to fail. Unlike linear supplies, which are heavy and usually have very few parts, the switching power supplies have many components but they are very small and light, The more components the more likely for something to fail, especially when in a smaller package.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I think I just need to find an EE I can trust (no ego on the line) to pay for a proper lookover. I'll see what I can do with your input, but you're not filling in any blanks.
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Your conclusion sounds valid but insufficiently explained. I need more than just "this looks like that, and it has ICs and coils, therefore".
To me, it is as obvious as can be, and would also be with anybody else who knows about switching power supplies. It would take a month to explain it all, and I am not electronics engineer, I only know the basics, but that is more than enough to ID it as a switching power supply.
BTW, let me correct a small error on what I said. IC's are NOT required for a switching power supply, the older ones use no ICs just a lot of transistors. But an IC is made up of many very small transistors. It would have been more accurate if I said the many semi-conductors and small light transformers prove it to be a switched-mode power supply.
"Excessive sparking at the inlet" before your failure is a clue. It was drawing excessive current. I will take a guess at what happened to yours that caused the burn. But it gets to the "chicken or the egg" type of deal.
One thing that could have happened is a diode shorted. In most cases, that will make the supply not usable right there, but that depends on where in the circuit. The shorted diode can put AC on a capacitor until it decides to short out, and when it does, other components fail.
Or a capacitor develops a high resistance short inside first and starts getting warm (a good capacitor will NEVER get warm internally) and eventually shorts out, causes a diode to short, puts AC on many items and many more parts blow out.
Like I said, it's the norm for many parts to short out and burn a PC board in a switching power supply when any one part shorts out. It is usually a chain reaction.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I don't care what you (say that you) think or know. I care what you can communicate in a way that I can cite.
You make claims. Claims without an explicit train of reasoning must be treated as such. What I'd like is something I can confirm via an independent source that will hold up under adversarial scrutiny.
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I think I just need to find an EE I can trust (no ego on the line) to pay for a proper lookover. I'll see what I can do with your input, but you're not filling in any blanks.
I am not sure what blanks you need filled, put perhaps a few will be answered in the post I just typed out a few seconds ago.
-Don-
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I don't care what you (say that you) think or know. I care what you can communicate in a way that I can cite.
You make claims. Claims without an explicit train of reasoning must be treated as such. What I'd like is something I can confirm via an independent source that will hold up under adversarial scrutiny.
Good luck with all of that! All I ask if if you do find the info. you are looking for that you post it here, so I will at least know what it was.
-Don-
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My rule of thumb (using switching power supplies in other equipment) the less sparking you can have, the longer they live. Arcing creates signal and low-voltage situations where components are insufficiently charged, and you get weird things like backwards current through diodes and stuff which heats them up and stresses their ionic structure.
Which is why I chose to put an arc-resist switch into my home charger cord; reducing that arc reduces that stress.
Beyond that I don't really know much, since I only ever built a couple in my hs vocational classes and never really understood the math behind them. I went into programming instead of EE as I went into university. ^-^;
Since we're seeing more failure at 120v vs 240v also gives a clue where the component failed is; it would have to be on the side of the circuit exposed to the higher current.
-Crissa
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Which is why I chose to put an arc-resist switch into my home charger cord; reducing that arc reduces that stress.
There is a delay for the contractor to close, so there really shouldn't be much of a high current spark to begin with.
Nevertheless, I never plug a hot cord into the bike. I make sure it has no juice when I plug into the bike and plug in at the opposite end.
-Don- Reno, NV
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My rule of thumb (using switching power supplies in other equipment) the less sparking you can have, the longer they live. Arcing creates signal and low-voltage situations where components are insufficiently charged, and you get weird things like backwards current through diodes and stuff which heats them up and stresses their ionic structure.
Which is why I chose to put an arc-resist switch into my home charger cord; reducing that arc reduces that stress.
Beyond that I don't really know much, since I only ever built a couple in my hs vocational classes and never really understood the math behind them. I went into programming instead of EE as I went into university. ^-^;
Since we're seeing more failure at 120v vs 240v also gives a clue where the component failed is; it would have to be on the side of the circuit exposed to the higher current.
-Crissa
Do you recommend a particular arc-resist switch or know suitable criteria for an average owner to select one?
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There is a delay for the contractor to close...
...But the charger has been exposed to current the entire time. The contactor protects the battery, not the charger.
Do you recommend a particular arc-resist switch or know suitable criteria for an average owner to select one?
Not really. They will say arc-reducing or arc-resisting on them. I used this switch https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000LETGVY/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_x_YTleFbYPY2AVA
You'll want something that says it has big, coated contacts and quick action. Faster means less time arcing. Sometimes arc-resistance just means that it keeps it enclosed, but the less time it spends arcing, the less time there's a weird random resistance on the circuit.
-Crissa
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I was thinking today that maybe Zero should offer a program where they send you a new charger every couple of years for a discounted price like the offers that you see on Amazon when you buy an item and they offer you a subscription service. ::)
The estimated time for the new charger that I ordered from AF1 Racing is about a month. Once I remove the old charger I will photograph it to compare it with the new charger box and also check it over to see if there are any burn marks on the case. I bet the new charger has an updated model number.
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I was thinking today that maybe Zero should offer a program where they send you a new charger every couple of years for a discounted price like the offers that you see on Amazon when you buy an item and they offer you a subscription service. ::)
The estimated time for the new charger that I ordered from AF1 Racing is about a month.
At $800, pre-ordering it is not really cost-effective, except maybe for a dealer to have exactly one spare on-hand: https://www.af1racing.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=89280&sku=ZM45-08253
But I'd rather a dealer just take a charger off of a demo bike to give to a customer and use a Quick Charger for the demo bike until Zero HQ delivers a new one. Or maybe use it as a "loaner".
Once I remove the old charger I will photograph it to compare it with the new charger box and also check it over to see if there are any burn marks on the case. I bet the new charger has an updated model number.
I doubt anything will show on the case (through inches of rubbery potting), but I definitely welcome anyone documenting these objects a bit at their convenience. I live in SF near you, so you could just visit and drop it off so I can spend some time carving into the Calex charger like a voodoo doll to represent certain people.
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I doubt anything will show on the case (through inches of rubbery potting), but I definitely welcome anyone documenting these objects a bit at their convenience. I live in SF near you, so you could just visit and drop it off so I can spend some time carving into the Calex charger like a voodoo doll to represent certain people.
Sounds like fun. ;)
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Well, the first time, I was very careful because I didn't know what I would find inside a sea of rubber. The second time around, I know what I'm looking for, just not where it will be since Zero has likely revised the layout on that board since my 2016 model.
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...But the charger has been exposed to current the entire time. The contactor protects the battery, not the charger.
The charger draws almost no current when the battery is not being charged by it. If no connection the the battery, the charger will stay cold.
The big spark is on the contactor, when the connector closes for a high charge rate. Not much you can do about that spark from the AC cord.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The big spark is on the contactor, when the connector closes for a high charge rate.
Alas, that's not how arc-fault damage works, dear. That's where it fails, not where the damage come from.
The electrons are like cows, waiting to get through the gate. They don't rush the gate when the ranchhand mishandles the latch, they do it when they're called. And then the gate fails and they rush through, breaking everything as they pass.
-Crissa
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DonTom, I'm really getting tired of your condescension towards others on this forum. You make every discussion you're in worse when you try to lecture people on electricity. You're pedantic and your point is irrelevant.
Literally every owner observes or hears a spark when connecting an AC power source to the onboard charger, because it has limited or nearly no inrush protection.
The Gigavac contactor is rated for the correct load that is applied to it, and is in turn protected by the BMS using sensors to only close it when the voltage difference is low enough to minimize arcing (provided by precharge or an appropriately leveled external power supply).
Your post is rude and condescending, for no good reason.
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Apologies, Brian.
That was me.
-Crissa
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It was not Crissa. I know exactly what I was calling out and why. I avoid quoting in my posts and label behavior very carefully because I've been threatened here before and have decided that I can only engage with certain segments of this community very deliberately and strategically.
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Apologies, Brian.
-Crissa
I will apologize also, even though I have no idea what Brian is complaining about. ;D
-Don- Reno, NV
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@Brian
Having been in much the same situation as you (in this thread) on similar episodes, i feel your frustration.
I too have tried explaining in detail what i want answer on, only to be ignored by the party at the other end..
That being said, there IS a huge difference in being an electrical engineer and being an electronics engineer..
I too understand the essence of how these chargers work, but i have to ask a friend on details when it comes to switched supplies simply because they use semiconductor trickery to obtain higher efficiency.
As such i normally understand things DonTom says in this forum, having the same background and all, but it's clear to me that he knows about the same amount on switched power supply electronics as Crissa knows about electrical engineering theory..
It's sad that people "do a Trump" instead of just admitting they don't know.. (that means to double down and still claiming to know things despite clearly not being able to give a good reply)
The arcing people hear when plugging in a hot wire to the inlet port of the bike is, yes.. Inrush current! This is very typical behaviour of switched power supplies and even happens when there is arc suppression circuits installed. (just lower intensity of arcs)
The times you don't hear them when doing this is when you happen to hit the sinal wave of the AC supply at it's exact point of crossing from negative to opposite or vice-versa.
As for trying to explain the details how a fail inside the charger; i don't have the knowledge to be able to add anything more to this at current stage. As i am currently involved in a electronics project in relation to chargers, i'm hoping to pick up more as i move along, from my project partner (which is an electronics engineer)
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I will comment that I can never recall a time that I have ever seen a spark when plugging in my Zero's OB charger cord with any of the three Zeros that I have owned, whether plugging in at the wall or at the bike's power port. I will plug in the cord and then a couple of seconds later I will hear a loud "click" and the bike will start charging. So that process seems safe to me, unlike other 12V motorcycle battery chargers that I own which really do spark when they are first connected to the wall outlet.
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I will comment that I can never recall a time that I have ever seen a spark when plugging in my Zero's OB charger cord with any of the three Zeros that I have owned, whether plugging in at the wall or at the bike's power port.
Check when more dark. I see the small (and expected) spark, but I am not convinced it's a problem unless it's a large spark showing there is excessive current being drawn.
A possible exception is how sparks over time can cause some damage at the bike's AC power inlet.
The very few times I charge with 120 VAC, I simply make sure I have a good connection at the bike's inlet with no juice on the cord and plug in at the opposite end and that's where I see the small spark. And my inlets still look like they did when the bike was new.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I always get a spark when plugging in, which was slowly degrading the supplied cable. Some outlets are worse than others, too.
-Crissa
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I always get a spark when plugging in, which was slowly degrading the supplied cable. Some outlets are worse than others, too.
-Crissa
I don't see how that can hurt the cable, other than on the contacts right where the spark is located, over time.
At 120 VAC the cord will slowly deteriorate from the heat. Since the OBC is designed to reduce the input current as the voltage is increased, the cords will last much longer if used with 240 VAC where the supply current is half to keep the wattage the same.
-Don- Reno, NV (now headed for Auburn on my Energica)
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Contact cleaner on the C14 inlet (and occasionally the C13 plug) is a good thing to apply now and then.
I've used 208V/240V AC on the inlet and, while the warming is certainly lower, I don't think it changes the impact of inrush. Whether that contributes to component wear, I couldn't say, since the majority of unsourced but inferred speculation about charger vulnerability has been CAN-side.
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A spark is air turned into a plasma. It will create heat, carbon, and burn away some of the metal, too. That carbon will increase the resistance through the contact, and creates further damage as it heats up the molding and insulation. And resistance lowers the voltage through the system, increasing the electromechanical stress on the components. (And as I said before, that's the limit of my knowledge.)
Yes, contact cleaner can help. I have to clean the contacts on my macbook every few months, too. Then it suddenly operates much cooler - less heat in the plug, less work that the capacitors have to do to stabilize internal voltages. ...But it's best to avoid the wear if you can at all. The higher voltage, lower amperage would help as well.
-Crissa
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Contact cleaner on the C14 inlet (and occasionally the C13 plug) is a good thing to apply now and then.
I've used 208V/240V AC on the inlet and, while the warming is certainly lower, I don't think it changes the impact of inrush. Whether that contributes to component wear, I couldn't say, since the majority of unsourced but inferred speculation about charger vulnerability has been CAN-side.
Thanks for the tip. I have never cleaned the power cord or inlet contacts before. I will start doing this occasionally from now on. It couldn't hurt.
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The chargers are DEFECTIVE, bad design. I need a 3RD and know others that are also on their 3RD or 4TH charger. They are no IP65 as claimed and should be IP67 or IP68. Every time it rains owners are posting on our local forum that there are problems and than inevitably someone posts that their charger is shorting or stopped charging past 70-80%.
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And then there's people like me who drove in the rain all winter without problems. And who doesn't have a garage.
*shrug*
-Crissa
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The chargers are DEFECTIVE, bad design. I need a 3RD and know others that are also on their 3RD or 4TH charger. They are no IP65 as claimed and should be IP67 or IP68. Every time it rains owners are posting on our local forum that there are problems and than inevitably someone posts that their charger is shorting or stopped charging past 70-80%.
it's happening to the bikes that have the isolation problem, once a Zero kill an onboard charger, it will keep killing them at a slower or faster rate. In the automotive industries it's standard to have the CAN communication galvanic isolated, Zero missed that memo.
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The chargers are DEFECTIVE, bad design. I need a 3RD and know others that are also on their 3RD or 4TH charger. They are no IP65 as claimed and should be IP67 or IP68. Every time it rains owners are posting on our local forum that there are problems and than inevitably someone posts that their charger is shorting or stopped charging past 70-80%.
it's happening to the bikes that have the isolation problem, once a Zero kill an onboard charger, it will keep killing them at a slower or faster rate. In the automotive industries it's standard to have the CAN communication galvanic isolated, Zero missed that memo.
Maybe I missed the memo, but has anyone actually shown a charger that failed due to isolation issues? The only tear downs I've seen show small fires with an indeterminate cause. Zero is probably the only one that could have the answer, if they've torn down enough of the returned defective chargers. RonIL suggests water ingress, and there was conjecture it was bad diodes or capacitors, or it could be something else entirely.
At any rate, I replaced a charger on my 19DS once, and then never needed another one.
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Good news! AF1 Racing has just notified me that they are shipping the new charger that I ordered a couple of weeks ago. Considering that their ordering computer system said it would be between 3 and 4 weeks before it would be shipped, I am happy with the store's service. They even sent me a photo of the new charger. Photo attached.
I'll keep my fingers crossed this is a good one and will get me back on the road again. :)
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When a charger fails, a small internal fire occurs as the electricity tries to find the shortest path until all those paths are burned.
It's like having a something big up on a clothesline, hanging from the clothespins: Each pin is carrying a portion of the weight, and it's fine. But if some of those clothespins come loose, more weight is spread between the remaining clothespins. Same with amperage in the circuit. And eventually (usually quickly) each branch blows in succession as they're shouldering more and more of the load. And your item falls from the clothesline.
Or your charger has a tiny fire inside.
-Crissa
PS: Good news on the shipping! They're pretty prompt once a person gets involved. I assume they give pessimistic answers because they don't know how long the fetches will take.
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When a charger fails, a small internal fire occurs as the electricity tries to find the shortest path until all those paths are burned.
It's like having a something big up on a clothesline, hanging from the clothespins: Each pin is carrying a portion of the weight, and it's fine. But if some of those clothespins come loose, more weight is spread between the remaining clothespins. Same with amperage in the circuit. And eventually (usually quickly) each branch blows in succession as they're shouldering more and more of the load. And your item falls from the clothesline.
Or your charger has a tiny fire inside.
-Crissa
PS: Good news on the shipping! They're pretty prompt once a person gets involved. I assume they give pessimistic answers because they don't know how long the fetches will take.
I was a little worried that the Zero charger might have been back-ordered, considering the stories that you hear here and there. Hearing that it was shipped and will be arriving via UPS next Thursday. I'll be installing it next weekend.
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Maybe I missed the memo, but has anyone actually shown a charger that failed due to isolation issues? The only tear downs I've seen show small fires with an indeterminate cause. Zero is probably the only one that could have the answer, if they've torn down enough of the returned defective chargers. RonIL suggests water ingress, and there was conjecture it was bad diodes or capacitors, or it could be something else entirely.
At any rate, I replaced a charger on my 19DS once, and then never needed another one.
First I admit that I have no proof to show, but , I find hard to believe that the same owner has "bad luck" over and over again, and it's getting bad chargers years apart.
I don't care if it's an isolation fault, unfortunate routing of the traction cables, controller, or motor faults ( when you deal with hundreds of Ampers, magnetic fields are very unpredictable). I love my Zero, but I have to be realistic, and acknowledge that they are not shielding the traction cables, and the CAN doesn't have galvanic isolation.
I noticed your posts before, and I believe that you're either a Zero employee, or dealer. I am not accusing of anything, I am just saying what I believe.
The fact that your 2019 Zero already killed one charger doesn't proof anything, maybe, just didn't had time to kill the second one yet.
I sold my 2019 DSR onboard charger after only 700 miles to someone that had a Zero that already killed two or three chargers, and my charger "went bad" too, after just a few charging sessions.
More likely the percentage of affected bikes is low, but, because only the owners that have that problem are posting here, it's making it look like a "common problem ".
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Here are a few comment regarding my original charger's lifespan: I was going to mention how many times it had recharged my battery pack, but when I looked at my app just now I was surprised to see that it showed only one recharge time and 77 miles traveled. Apparently the latest firmware update session had reset those numbers back to zero on the app. I sure hope receiving the new firmware and then the charger blowing up was just a coincidence and had nothing to do with the firmware revision. :o
Anyway, the charger lasted two years and 9 months and 7,000 miles of usage. I would say that the typical charging time was usually around 5 hours. Only once did I run the battery pack down to "00" and that recharge took 15 hours. When the charger failed this time it ran for about 4 hours at around 10.5 amps before it stopped and my garage started smelling like garlic. SOC was increased from 41% to 69% at 106V, where it is now.
When the charger failed on my 2014 S, it had the low SOC symptom where it would stop charging at 98 SOC and then get progressively lower over a period of two years, until it would not charge past 88% and a corresponding voltage showing on the app. That was when I replaced it with a new charger. My daughter still has that bike and the old charger is stored in her garage which could have become a backup if another charger should fail and no replacement was available. But if that happens to me again, I really think the solution would be to use a stand-alone off-board charger as has been suggested by others and just give up on the OBC, unless Zero comes up with an entirely new unit that is more robust - which seems unlikely to me. :(
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Maybe I missed the memo, but has anyone actually shown a charger that failed due to isolation issues? The only tear downs I've seen show small fires with an indeterminate cause. Zero is probably the only one that could have the answer, if they've torn down enough of the returned defective chargers. RonIL suggests water ingress, and there was conjecture it was bad diodes or capacitors, or it could be something else entirely.
At any rate, I replaced a charger on my 19DS once, and then never needed another one.
First I admit that I have no proof to show, but , I find hard to believe that the same owner has "bad luck" over and over again, and it's getting bad chargers years apart.
I don't care if it's an isolation fault, unfortunate routing of the traction cables, controller, or motor faults ( when you deal with hundreds of Ampers, magnetic fields are very unpredictable). I love my Zero, but I have to be realistic, and acknowledge that they are not shielding the traction cables, and the CAN doesn't have galvanic isolation.
I noticed your posts before, and I believe that you're either a Zero employee, or dealer. I am not accusing of anything, I am just saying what I believe.
The fact that your 2019 Zero already killed one charger doesn't proof anything, maybe, just didn't had time to kill the second one yet.
I sold my 2019 DSR onboard charger after only 700 miles to someone that had a Zero that already killed two or three chargers, and my charger "went bad" too, after just a few charging sessions.
More likely the percentage of affected bikes is low, but, because only the owners that have that problem are posting here, it's making it look like a "common problem ".
Guilty as charged, I've been working at a Zero dealer for a while. What I've noticed a large of charger replacements, I feel like most of them have been on older bikes, and most have not come back once replaced. We've seen a lot more failed chargers on 2014-2016 than 2018-2020. We've asked Zero about chargers, because they are fairly common, and the answer we get is that they are making continuous improvements.
A while back I asked about isolation issues as a cause, and I got a flat denial. They also mentioned that waterproofing has been significantly improved over the years. I don't really know one way or the other, but I thought I'd mention that. I'd love to see some data but they don't usually share too much with us :)
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Guilty as charged, I've been working at a Zero dealer for a while. What I've noticed a large of charger replacements, I feel like most of them have been on older bikes, and most have not come back once replaced. We've seen a lot more failed chargers on 2014-2016 than 2018-2020.
Why is there no mention of year 2017? Was there a version change in the middle of that year? If so, is there a way I can tell which I have?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Sorry about that, 2017 is right in the middle. They revved the part number on the charger case and added a big ferrite to one of the charge cables. That means you have one of the more recent major versions. There was some talk about changing the potting material to be more water resistant on the inside when the zero rep came by sometime in the last year or so. I'm not sure if they revved the part # again for that.
Maybe it's worth tracking part #s on AF1 or similiar, to at least give an idea something might have changed. I'd like to see a teardown of a recent charger to confirm. Trouble is I haven't seen a recent failure, and Zero tends to collect all recent failures for analysis and warranty purposes.
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I really think the solution would be to use a stand-alone off-board charger as has been suggested by others and just give up on the OBC, unless Zero comes up with an entirely new unit that is more robust - which seems unlikely to me. :(
Why not invest in the Delta-Q QC anyway? Then you have choices, including less charge times as well as you can still charge when your new OBC craps out. ;)
Since each charger (OBC plus Delta Q-charger) draws more than ten amps, they cannot both be on the same 20 amp house circuit breaker.
FWIW, Elk Grove Power Sports normally keeps one in stock. $600.00. They recently moved about a mile away (https://www.egpowersports.com/) from their old shop. It's now a much larger shop and they now also deal with Indian Motorcycles. They have MANY Zeros in stock. I took a ride down there several weeks ago. On my Energica, of course. BTW, I hear they are going to soon add a J-1772 charge station to their new building.
An even better choice (if you don't mind doing your own wiring to the bike's motor controller battery inputs) is to buy a 2,500 watt unit from Elcon in Sacramento (https://www.elconchargers.com/index.html), all programmed up for your Zero. They cost $700.00 but are more than twice the KW of the Delta Q Zero shops sell when used with 240 VAC. They also work at 120 VAC at around 1,375 watts output, about the same as your Zero OBC. They draw from 12.4 to 18 amps on the AC input, on either 120 or 240 VAC depending on where they are in the charge cycle.
My two are the model Elcon TCCH-84-22. Looks exactly like the one shown here (https://www.elconchargers.com/i/Charger%20Images/2KW_HF_PFC_Battery_Charger.jpg). Looks like mine is perhaps already obsolete, as I see no mention of the "-22" model.
Anyway, you may send them an e-mail at:
Elcon@jps.net
I have experience with both as I own seven Delta Q chargers and two Elcon 2500 Watt units. With the Delta Q's, two at each house. One I leave in my RV. I use the two Elcons on the road, one in each side bag and charge my SR at 6.3 KW (up to 8.3 KW at home, if I am in a hurry, by adding in two Delta Q chargers). I have not yet had any issues with any of the chargers I own, including the OBCs.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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and added a big ferrite to one of the charge cables. That means you have one of the more recent major versions.
I probably have the older versions as I have not noticed and "big ferrite" on either of my bikes.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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and added a big ferrite to one of the charge cables. That means you have one of the more recent major versions.
I probably have the older versions as I have not noticed and "big ferrite" on either of my bikes.
-Don- Auburn, CA
The charger that I installed on my daughter's 2014 Zero last year came with one of those boxes on the power cable. Her charger did not have one. But my 2018 S does have it because we had to look at how its power cord and ferrite box was routed and located on my bike to get it installed on her bike correctly. BTW, my son-in-law called the box a "choke" and said it was there to control sparks when the power cord was plugged in. I can not vouch for his comments. ???
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This morning I spent an hour with a screwdriver, hammer and a chisel prying apart the Zero's failed charger, after removing many small screws. The charger electronics were completely potted in a rubber shock absorbing compound that had to be chopped and peeled away. I managed to get the top of the charger exposed where it apparently overheated. The steel box of the charger had a burned hole in the top, which apparently was the result of a component catching fire which caused an upheaval of the circuit board that you can see to the upper middle left of the board as a black open area. That area is open and raised, which is not too obvious in the attached photo. The condition of the rest of the charger doesn't look all that great, either. I am very glad that the charger had some sort of fuse that killed the power before any more damage could be done.
I also took apart one of the ferrite choke boxes, which contained two halves of metal, but no electronics. They were just clamped over the insulation of the power cord. It is a mystery to me what they do and how they work. ???
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It is a mystery to me what they do and how they work. ???
They work by what is called "skin effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect)".
What they do is reduce the high frequency radiation. In the case of a Zero, I expect its reason for being there is part 15 of the FCC rules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_47_CFR_Part_15).
To put it in laymen terms, it means so it does not cause interference to nearby radio receivers. Switched-mode power supplies (your Zero charger) has a lot of stray oscillations that can radiate quite a distance. Since radio frequencies travel over the "skin" of wires and not down the wires themselves, the ferrite core over the wire blocks the radio signal right there. That way that wire cannot be used as an "antenna" to radiate the signal for a greater distance.
Other than that, it has NO effect on your power supply and can be removed.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Your burnt up PC board seems to indicate that you had the typical chain reaction of when one part shorts out in a switching power supply, it causes many other components to short out and burns up the board.
I have wondered if they could design a switched mode power supply with about 30 fuses to prevent that. Or some type of current limiting that won't reduce efficiently and won't increase cost and size. It's such a common issue, I would think by now somebody could design a safer way than letting the PC boards burn up.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It is a mystery to me what they do and how they work. ???
They work by what is called "skin effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect)".
What they do is reduce the high frequency radiation. In the case of a Zero, I expect its reason for being there is part 15 of the FCC rules (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_47_CFR_Part_15).
To put it in laymen terms, it means so it does not cause interference to nearby radio receivers. Switched-mode power supplies (your Zero charger) has a lot of stray oscillations that can radiate quite a distance. Since radio frequencies travel over the "skin" of wires and not down the wires themselves, the ferrite core over the wire blocks the radio signal right there. That way that wire cannot be used as an "antenna" to radiate the signal for a greater distance.
Other than that, it has NO effect on your power supply and can be removed.
-Don- Reno, NV
Thanks for the reply regarding Zero's choke, Don. That makes sense and I can now understand why it is just attached to the outside of the power cord. Still, it seems like such a simple device to actually work like that. That is probably the simplest, and likely least expensive, electronic device on the whole bike. ;)
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Thanks for the reply regarding Zero's choke, Don. That makes sense and I can now understand why it is just attached to the outside of the power cord. Still, it seems like such a simple device to actually work like that. That is probably the simplest, and likely least expensive, electronic device on the whole bike. ;)
FWIW, you can buy ferrite cores here. (https://www.amazon.com/ferrite-core/s?k=ferrite+core)
But most of the parts in the charger are a lot cheaper. Diodes usually cost less than a dime when purchased in qualities. Same for resistors and even transistors and most ICs are cheap these days. In fact, there isn't anything expensive in your rather expensive charger. But to design it for just a few motorcycles makes it cost quite a bit. Most of the money is spent on the design, not what's in them.
I am very familiar with ferrite cores for many reasons. I was in radio professionally as a technician for most of my life. Also, ferrite cores are handy to stop TVI (TeleVision Interference) from near by ham radio operators. I have also been a HF ham for most of my life. A clean ham radio signal can wipe out a TV that is on TV cable from overload just by being close, like a next door neighbor in the bay area where most of the houses are very close to each other.
The very strong ham radio signal travels down the TV cable. Right before the cable enters the TV coil a few turns around a ferrite core. Like magic, the interference is totally gone! In most cases, not even a trace of the interference if done correctly.
On the source of the noise, such as your charger, the ferrite should be right where the wire comes out of the case. On the TV, it's the opposite, right before it goes into the TV, to reduce the RF coming down the shield. It has negligible effect on the center conductor that carries the TV signal because it is protected by the shield of the TV cable.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Of course, cable tv isn't just used for low-band television anymore.
-Crissa
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I don´t want to be "that guy", but the whole purpose of a ferrite core is to be a common mode EMI filter.. As such, when clamped on a cable it only has one turn trough the transformer setup it creates and therefore the filtering effect is only about 3%..
(this varies depending on the frequency and misalignment of the interfering signal.)
More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_mode_choke
As such.. the so-called "skin effect" doesn´t exist.. Current doesn´t travel on the outside of a cable´s sheath unless it´s made of metal. Electromagnetic fields however does.
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I'm not sure why DonTom linked to the 'Skin Effect' but all cables are made of metal. The nonconductive sheathing of a cable is not bound to the cable in any way that would change this (semiconductors aside).
-Crissa
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I'm not sure why DonTom linked to the 'Skin Effect' but all cables are made of metal.
Which part did you not understand? Higher frequency RF travels via skin effect on the top of metal cables, easy to block with a ferrite core, even if the wire is insulated.
In transmitters, in the output stages , coils are often made with hollow wire in the tuners because the RF travels better that way because then there is "skin" on both sides, so it's more efficient than solid wire for RF.
But on a solid wire, a ferrite core works great because it blocks the RF on the "skin". Solid wire is great to carry normal current, but not so great for RF and extremely poor when it is blocked by a ferrite core.
So why would I not link to "skin effect" when that is exactly how ferrite cores work?
-Don- Reno, NV
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The skin effect is how high frequency travels faster and overloads the surface and doesn't use the core of a wire. I thought you were linking to it to explain that high frequency develops more pronounced EM fields around wires.
All variable current (including base signal AC) has the skin effect?
The ferrite absorbs the signals emanating from a wire and sends them back, creating destructive patterns at a frequency range according to the wraps. It doesn't touch the skin of a wire. It's a little echo box.
-Crissa
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Is this what a ferrite core looks like? This is inside my Husqvarna pole saw or pole pruner.
Sorry for the derail if it is such.
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I thought you were linking to it to explain that high frequency develops more pronounced EM fields around wires.
Switching power supplies radiate unwanted garbage, such as harmonics and parasitics along with the wanted switching frequencies from their "chopper" stage. It radiates much like an oscillator, which is what produces RF for transmitters. This unwanted garbage can cause interference to radio receivers and part 15 of the FCC rules limits how far it can radiate. Since this garbage is HF, it travels down the "skin" of wires and becomes much like an antenna. The ferrite prevents that from happening by blocking what comes down the "skin".
-Don- Reno, NV
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Is this what a ferrite core looks like? This is inside my Husqvarna pole saw or pole pruner.
In the upper right hand corner, it sure looks like such, with a coil of the wire around it. Perhaps that is the AC cord?
Motors also put out a lot of HF garbage.
-Don- Reno, NV
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It is a 36 nominal volt lithium ion battery device. The 3 wires that go around the metal cylinder go to the motor on the end of the pole that drive the chainsaw chain. I would guess it is some sort of pulsed dc, similar to 3 wires that go to battery powered motorcycle motors.
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@Fran K
This is a classical Common Mode filter setup. In this case it has 2 windings,which means it´s twice as good as a single passthrough. (so about 6 %)
Basically, what it does is to create more resistance as frequency of EMI increase, which in turn makes it dissipate in the metal ring rather than travel along the unscreened cables making them become antennas. This is a heavy oversimplification, but the essence of the function.
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Is this what a ferrite core looks like? This is inside my Husqvarna pole saw or pole pruner.
Sorry for the derail if it is such.
This is what Zero's charger ferrite device looks like.
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buongiorno a tutti, mi chiamo alberto scrivo dall 'italia , ho un problema con la ricarica della mia zero ds 13 kw caricatore da 1.5 kw + uno quik da 1 kw , la
batteria moto stamattina era al 56% dopo 3 ore si sarebbe dovuta ricaricare al 100% , mentre me la sono ritrovata al 86 % , ho spento e riacceso il tutto , si sente che il caricatore interno attacca , ma dopo 15 secondi sembra che si spegne , mentre la batteria piano piano i ricarica col quik. voi che avete + esperienza cosa può essere , è la prima volta che mi capita. grazie pe r le eventuali risposte. saluti alberto
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buongiorno a tutti, mi chiamo alberto scrivo dall 'italia , ho un problema con la ricarica della mia zero ds 13 kw caricatore da 1.5 kw + uno quik da 1 kw , la
batteria moto stamattina era al 56% dopo 3 ore si sarebbe dovuta ricaricare al 100% , mentre me la sono ritrovata al 86 % , ho spento e riacceso il tutto , si sente che il caricatore interno attacca , ma dopo 15 secondi sembra che si spegne , mentre la batteria piano piano i ricarica col quik. voi che avete + esperienza cosa può essere , è la prima volta che mi capita. grazie pe r le eventuali risposte. saluti alberto
Try not using the on board charger at all, just the Q-charger ONLY, but leave the bike keyed on and see if it then charges to full. Charge rate will only be 1 KW, but that will prove the problem in the bike's on-board charger not keeping the contractor closed.
Leaving the bike keyed on while charging will keep the contactor closed so then the Q-charger will work alone, without the on-board charger.
-Don- Reno, NV, USA
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thank you dear Don, now i tray that you write me, you are very friends . my costumer tray to call oland's peaple but is more holydays ??? so much !!!, is possible, that there is not another man in the factori?
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i tray, the light of quik is on the green + yellow ( C+ D) but after 3 - 5 minutes change in yellow + red ( d+e)
so i think that charge is ok , bat the battery more of 76% dont'go more .
the bike don't ave erronr
the lights of bms when the bike is ON , are red + green + green is like a 75% battery charge
when the bike is of in charge the lights of bms is red+ green + green go for 500 ms, and off for 5 sec ( this is not write on the manual)
the bike is off no charge bms light is green the fuor's light 50 ms on and 2 sec off. the manual tell no problem , so i don't know ,
now i stand by the delear for maby change the battery .
thank you Don for help me .
by
Albert Varese italy
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I just happened to check the bottom of my Zero while it was charging with the OBC and noticed that the skid plate was kind of warm. So I checked its temperature and did seem to running a fever. About 110 degrees F. I assume that the charger box itself is warmer than that, but I wasn't up to removing the skid plate to take its temperature as I had better things to do. I really wonder why Zero couldn't just install a small fan in front of the charger box to get rid of any heat while it is charging? ??? Seems like an easy thing to do and I bet the Chinese sell small 12V fans pretty cheap, especially when they are bought in bulk. ::) I don't know if it would do any good, but I always say it is the thought that counts. ;)
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A small fan in the skidplate?
-Crissa
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Seems like an easy thing to do and I bet the Chinese sell small 12V fans pretty cheap, especially when they are bought in bulk. ::) I don't know if it would do any good, but I always say it is the thought that counts. ;)
The fan will probably crap out before the charger, as happened with my Energica. But it certainly should help with the charger reliability issue. If they can make it so the fan is easy to replace, it would be a good idea.
An even better idea is get the charger efficiency so high that it doesn't get hot! But I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.
BTW, I have used fans on my Zeros while charging at home on very hot days. Just keeping the area around that skid plate cool should help by blowing the heat off. It cannot hurt. Also, you can reduce the heat a little by using 240 VAC instead of 120 VAC, as the charger is more efficient at 240 VAC. That means less heat and a hair more power to charging, it could also reduce your charge time by a full minute or so! :)
-Don- Reno, NV
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On the off chance that someone wanted to make the modification themselves I found these, IP67 rated 25mm and 40mm fans. Not sure what you'd wire them to so they only come on when charging, could always wire them to a switch and turn them on manually I guess.
https://www.coolerguys.com/collections/waterproof-resistant-fans/products/coolerguys-25mm-25x25x10-ip67-12v-fan
https://www.coolerguys.com/collections/waterproof-resistant-fans/products/coolerguys-40mm-40x40x20-ip67-fan
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ho scoperto che ricaricando la batteria partendo da percentuali inferiori all 10% di DOD , la batteria ad ogni ricarica guadagna capacità, ora da un minimo del 75% è arrivata al 82%, comunque venerdì porto la moto dal concessionario di Milano, perchè lunedì arriva il tecnico dall'olanda per vedere il problema , se è la batteria o il caricabatterie ,ma se fosse il carica batterie ha problemi anche il quik esterno, perchè anch'esso si ferma ...per ora al 82% .
mentre l'idea di mettere la ventola nel caricabatteria è una buona idea ,credevo che non esistessero dei ventilatori ip 67 cosi piccoli ,comunque si potrebbe ventilare dall'esterno appoggiando il ventilatore davanti alla griglia del para caricatore , la prossima ricarica proverò a toccare il fondo della moto per vedere se scalda o no, qui in italia si carica col 220 volt
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Good luck, @alby62!
That does sound like a dying charger.
-Crissa
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thank you Crissa
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History - 2016 Zero FXS, re-built title, finally ran fine after mostly cosmetic and protection parts replacement. it had "slid out" but appeared to cause no structural damage with 40 miles on the clock.
Did a creek crossing, water just under pegs for approx. 4', splash over my hiking boots. Rode for another 50+ miles in dry weather. Also I did drop it on the side (left facing forward) unloading it at the end of the day, approx 2'. Plugged in that night at 17%, unplugged that night at 49% charge, never worked again.
Error Codes :
Main - 15- Charger attached but not charging
45- Kickstand switch disable
47- MBB charger connected disable
Occasionally or once (before cleaning as many plugs as I could find)
6- BMS throttle enable wire error
25- Contactor open warning
44- Kill switch disable
55- Internal fault error
Kickstand switch would not work at all until I scrapped back the sheathing and shot it with WD-40, worked after that sort of. Ordered a new one.
Also ordered a Green Watt OBC
The original would take 10 plus hours to go from 40% to full charge when it worked. So I think it was starting to wear out when I got it.
Am I on the right path? any comments will be welcome, take care and stay healthy,
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History - 2016 Zero FXS, re-built title, finally ran fine after mostly cosmetic and protection parts replacement. it had "slid out" but appeared to cause no structural damage with 40 miles on the clock.
Did a creek crossing, water just under pegs for approx. 4', splash over my hiking boots. Rode for another 50+ miles in dry weather. Also I did drop it on the side (left facing forward) unloading it at the end of the day, approx 2'. Plugged in that night at 17%, unplugged that night at 49% charge, never worked again.
Error Codes :
Main - 15- Charger attached but not charging
45- Kickstand switch disable
47- MBB charger connected disable
Occasionally or once (before cleaning as many plugs as I could find)
6- BMS throttle enable wire error
25- Contactor open warning
44- Kill switch disable
55- Internal fault error
Kickstand switch would not work at all until I scrapped back the sheathing and shot it with WD-40, worked after that sort of. Ordered a new one.
Also ordered a Green Watt OBC
The original would take 10 plus hours to go from 40% to full charge when it worked. So I think it was starting to wear out when I got it.
Am I on the right path? any comments will be welcome, take care and stay healthy,
It would seem to me that replacing your OBC should get your bike running again. I hope that a toasted charger is the only problem and there is nothing more involved than that. Chargers are easy to replace, tracking down electrical issues such as corroded connections, less so. ;)
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Thanks will let everyone know when I have results.
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New charger installed - Works !!!!!!
Possible conclusions:
Creek crossing allowed water to enter the Kickstand switch as WD-40 cured the problem usually, unit was replaced. No effect on charging except the error code was eliminated. Seems to be a bad location and orientation for the switch. grease it up often and stay out of creeks. By the way NEVER use WD-40 on or in a key lock, it will seize up after a few applications, I use "white lube (lithium), or graphite. WD stands for Water Displacement.
New charger states on the unit "Must use a cord rated at 15 Amps". I was using an old 18 gauge (Rated at approx 8 amps) computer power cord. Found a 14 gauge at my computer guru's place from an old server. Rated at 15 amps. I believe I was starving the OBC for amps and volts, stressing the transformer. The new one has a lot less heat and charges a little faster. Doubt the creek crossing had anything to do with the charger. Now to put it all back together and enjoy. Thoughts are welcome, and thanks.
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I have been using WD-40 as a lock lubricant for many years and have never had a problem with any of my ignition switches on at least 20 different motorcycles.
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ho portato da Zero in Milano da Moto UP la moto, DOPO AVER SCARICATO i dati mi hanno comunicato che la batteria VA CAMBATA. anche se ora sono riuscito a portarla a 89% di carica , sempre partendo da meno del 10% di SOC. mi installeranno una 14.4 kwh in garanzia , io aspetterei ancora un 15 mesi cosi da cambiarla ancora in garanzia poi chissà forse tra 15 mesi ci sarà la 16 kwh ??? .
intanto i miei complimenti a Zero per la gestione del problema.
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Guess our experiences are different, either way I appreciate you help and knowledge, take care and stay healthy.