That seems kind of odd as yesterday it was charging at 9.5 amps. I passed by a couple of electronic speed boards on my trip and the speedometer seems to be reading at least 10% higher than actual.
That seems kind of odd as yesterday it was charging at 9.5 amps. I passed by a couple of electronic speed boards on my trip and the speedometer seems to be reading at least 10% higher than actual.
I believe the Delta-Q chargers are constant battery current, so when the battery is low on volts, it charges at less power, so less amps from your wall. As the battery gets up to 80-90% full you should see the wall current increasing, then decreasing once the battery is almost full.
-ryan
Great post. Beautiful bike too. How do you get on the bike with the pack on the back.
thanks for the post!
And they sure aren't trying to push them out the door! They want MSRP for them!
The fan is mounted internally to the shaft of the motor on the backside.Interesting... does that mean it only turns when (and at the same speed as) the motor is turning?
...The biggest factor on your riding noise becomes choosing a helmet that has excellent low-wind-noise performance... :-)Any recommendations? My vintage Arai Quantum makes all kinds of whistles, visor up or down...
HWY one commuting I can get about 85 miles at around 55 MPH at 70 mph I get about 65 miles
Real World Riding Range from my experience so far:
70-75 MPH: 34 Miles
At 65 MPH: 39 Miles
At 45 MPH: 55 MPH
Hey, just wanted to add my data to the pile. Am really enjoying my 2012 Zero S ZF9!Ben are you in Westchester by any chance? I live in Westchester have a 2011 Zero S (and a 2010 before that).
Rode a 40 mile round trip that is exactly half highway, half local roads, in 35 degree weather and used up 6 bars. Averaged 70mph on highway and 40 on local roads.
Haven't had an opportunity to test the limits, but I'm pretty pleased to have no range anxiety getting into NYC from where I live.
So I finally gave my 2012 ZF9 S the workout that I bought the bike for. I rode it the 38.4 miles from my home in Pacifica, across the Golden Gate Bridge, to my daughter house located in Marin County, in the town of Fairfax. Going there in the morning, the temperature was in the high 40's and I had the bike in "Eco" mode. I kept up with traffic in the slow lane and adhered to the speed limit. About 1/4 of my riding was on the freeway at 60 mph and the rest was on collector streets or two-lane State highways, at around 40 mph.
I took my Kill A Watt meter along with me and completely recharged my pack at my daughter's home, which took about 4.5 hours and used 3.95 kWh. When I returned home, via the exact same route as I had taken in the morning, the temperature was in the high 60's and I had the bike in "Sport" mode. Upon recharging the pack, it only took 3.65 kWh. I have no idea why the power consumption was less in "Sport" mode on the way home, unless 20 degrees warmer made the difference.
I ran a little calculation to determine my travel cost. I used 7.6 kWh for the round trip. My power costs (including all taxes and random other charges) amounts to $ 0.137 per kWh. That means that my 76.8 mile trip cost me $1.04 in power consumption. If I had ridden my Triumph, which gets 42 mpg on 89 octane fuel, the trip would have cost me $8.21, based upon yesterday's fuel price of $4.49 per gallon at my local gas station. That is a pretty significant difference in traveling cost and when you factor in the almost nonexistent maintenance costs (if you can get past the initial purchase price), you really can save a lot of money riding electric. :)
After riding the bike 2000 mi since last May i have never once encountered anyone who had ever heard of Zero motorcycles. Small wonder they are having so much difficulty building a dealer network. Dealers count on the manufacturer to create demand. They want buyers walking in the door. The last thing they want is prospects walking in the door to ask, "What's that?"
Riding electric makes life easier. I wish the rain would stop so that I can go out riding again. :)
I note that just a few miles from where Zero's factory is located, over 10 inches of rain has fallen since Tuesday. I have had 4 inches so far at my home and the rain isn't expected to stop until next week. :'(
We are having the wettest summers on record for many years, and flooding everywhere. Updated my raingear and keep riding ! The Zero works fine in the wet. Even managed to bypass a traffic jam on the flooded lane with nearly knee deep water --- the Zero just went through it no problem -- and I know the road well enough without seeing the surface that day -- as in no potholes etc.
For vehicles subject to the driving schedule in 40CFR86 Appendix I(b), the driving schedule shall be repeated until the vehicle is no longer able to reach a speed of at least 53.9 mph (86.7 km/hr) between second number 226 and second number 254 of the driving schedule or the illumination of a warning light informing the operator that operation should be terminated for safety reasons or to avoid permanent battery damage. Speed variations greater than the tolerances specified in Appendix I that occur during gear changes or braking spikes are acceptable, provided they occur for less than 2 seconds on any occasion and are clearly documented as to the time and speed at that point of the driving schedule.
...
Range Calculation. The range value is determined by measuring the total number of revolutions of the dynamometer roller from the start of the test until the point at which the vehicle is no longer able to maintain the speed and time requirements specified. Based on the distance travelled per revolution of the dynamometer roller and the total number of revolutions, the distance travelled shall be reported in units of miles or kilometers, rounded to the nearest whole number. It is recommended that the calculated value be characterized as “city driving range, starting with a fully-charged battery.â€
(b) EPA Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule for Light-Duty Vehicles, Light-Duty Trucks, and Motorcycles with engine displacements equal to or greater than 170 cc (10.4 cu. in.).
(c) EPA Urban Dynamometer Driving Schedule for motorcycles with engine displacements less than 170 cc (10.4 cu. in.).
oobflyer, I think Zero quotes both the EPA figures as well as a more-realistic 63 mile range at a continuous 70mph (for the ZF9) in their sales literature. I know I saw it somewhere before I bought mine, either in their brochure or on the web site somewhere. Since I'm in a small town/rural area, I figured I'd be a lot nearer that than any EPA "city" cycle, and once I saw that number, I knew it would have the range I needed for my local commuting.On the web site it claims 63 miles at 70mph, but if you read the fine print they say that it is actually assuming 50% at 70mph and 50% at city speeds since you have to get to the highway and back. You can extrapolate backwards or check the owner's manual (I think) to find out that it is 43 miles at 70mph all the way...
First of all - THERE ARE ELEVEN (11) BARS ON THE FUEL GAUGE - what a strange number.
I received an email today stating that my windshield has arrived at the dealership - I'm hoping that my range will improve with the increased aerodynamics.
I took delivery of my brand new Zero DS ZF9 today. I rode it back home (32 miles, eco mode) and used only 3 bars of energy (third bar disappeared at 29 miles). I rode along a busy street with 40 mph speed limit and many traffic lights. If the charge indicator is linear that is really good achievement.It will be interesting to hear how that changes over the first few charge cycles. Have we definitively determined if they fully balance the cells and calibrate the meter before they ship the bikes?
Blake, consider a Ninja 250. A new one is about $5,000 out the door, gets 55 mpg or so and has a top speed of 95 mph with a bullet proof, tried-and-true engine.
Blake, consider a Ninja 250. A new one is about $5,000 out the door, gets 55 mpg or so and has a top speed of 95 mph with a bullet proof, tried-and-true engine.
But when it comes time to perform a major service on the little Ninja, including adjusting its valve lash, you will thank your lucky stars that you chose an electric motorcycle. ;D
Assuming 12,000 to 15,000 miles a year, figure (doing the work myself) my 1600 Classic costs me:
Tires: $200 and $400 alternate every-other year (front tire lasts through 2 rear)
Oil: 4 changes at $55 each for full synthetic. 6 changes at $30 each for conventional
Annual relamp: (I don't wait until they burn out, but sometimes they do anyways) about $40
Brake pads: About $100 every 2 years... maybe a touch more often.
Fork oil: About $10 every 2 years
Brake/clutch fluid: About $15 every 2 years
Coolant: About $20 every 2 years
Battery: Figure $100 every 2-3 years.
Fuel: About $1,000/year
And a tub of waterproof grease... it'll last you 10 years or more.
Some things are mileage or riding habit related, such as tires, oil change frequency, brake pads, and fuel, while other things are simply time related and should be done every year or two anyways.
Pretty much anything other than the above is simply adjustments and labor related... only needing parts when something breaks or wears.
Now, if you're having the work done, add $65 to $85/hour for labor... and pray it's done right.
Instead of waiting for the decisions to go up to the top and come back again, I just quietly started charging it. My tactic of "ask for forgiveness, not for permission," has worked so far.
Instead of waiting for the decisions to go up to the top and come back again, I just quietly started charging it. My tactic of "ask for forgiveness, not for permission," has worked so far.
Same here. I use an almost-always-unused outlet, and park the bike and route the cord so that it is not a trip hazard.
I think the problem with the 5 year break-even time though is that you will likely need a new battery at that point...$7,000 or so? Also as difficult as it is to adjust valves, it can be done with common tools and time. If my Zero motor or controller goes out, I would not be able to work on that at this point anyway. Perhaps if I have a step by step service manual I could, but not now. I have a feeling the bike would need to go back to California and that expense would be pretty large. Time will tell though. Anyway, I rode a Ninja 650 today, and it is looking like that Ninja 250 won't be around by 7500 miles when the valves are due for an adjustment. Of course neither will my Zero in 5 years. Next Jan. when the 2013 Zeros come out, I will think about trading my 2011 in on a new one or perhaps a left-over 2012 demo if my dealer still has one.
The 2012 Zero specs are: "Cells last 3,000 full charge-discharge cycles before hitting 80% capacity, yielding as much as 308,000 miles on the original power pack."
They said that the original cells in Zero bikes would do 1000 full cycles but they all died after a short period, how can you trust these figures when their last claims were bunkam?
Based upon my experience with soft saddlebags, they can really put a drag on your "fuel mileage". I went on a 1000-mile trip last summer with a set of relatively small saddlebags on my BMW and the fuel mileage dropped a good 10% compared with riding "naked". Now I don't use saddlebags unless I really need to. I try to pile stuff on my rear seat and luggage rack and only install the saddlebags if there is an overflow. ;)
Based upon my experience with soft saddlebags, they can really put a drag on your "fuel mileage". I went on a 1000-mile trip last summer with a set of relatively small saddlebags on my BMW and the fuel mileage dropped a good 10% compared with riding "naked". Now I don't use saddlebags unless I really need to. I try to pile stuff on my rear seat and luggage rack and only install the saddlebags if there is an overflow. ;)
Brammo Empulse supposedly ships May 8. Specs here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2043.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2043.0)
Driving Range City: 121 miles* (195 km)
Highway: 56 miles** (90 km)
Combined: 77 miles*** (124 km)
*SAE City Riding Range Test Procedure for Electric Motorcycles (variable speed, 19 mph / 30km/h average)
**SAE Highway / Constant Speed Riding Range Test Procedure for Electric Motorcycles (70 mph / 113 km/h sustained)
*** SAE Highway Commuting Cycle (.5 City weighting, .5 Highway weighting)
Brammo Empulse gets more range because it's battery pack is larger (in a kWh sense, no idea of the physical dimensions).
Brammo Empulse - 121 miles on 9.3 kWh
Zero S ZF9 - 114 miles on 7.9 kWh
So for the UDDS cycle Empulse uses 76.9 Wh/mile, S ZF9 uses 69.2 Wh/mile.
It would be interesting to know if the Empulse was tested on the UDDS using all of the transmission's gears or if it was left in one gear. Those Wh/mile figures are quite close, and the ZF9 weighs quite a bit less than the Empulse.
Brammo Empulse gets more range because it's battery pack is larger (in a kWh sense, no idea of the physical dimensions).
Brammo Empulse - 121 miles on 9.3 kWh
Zero S ZF9 - 114 miles on 7.9 kWh
So for the UDDS cycle Empulse uses 76.9 Wh/mile, S ZF9 uses 69.2 Wh/mile.
It would be interesting to know if the Empulse was tested on the UDDS using all of the transmission's gears or if it was left in one gear. Those Wh/mile figures are quite close, and the ZF9 weighs quite a bit less than the Empulse.
Brammo Empulse gets more range because it's battery pack is larger (in a kWh sense, no idea of the physical dimensions).
Brammo Empulse - 121 miles on 9.3 kWh
Zero S ZF9 - 114 miles on 7.9 kWh
So for the UDDS cycle Empulse uses 76.9 Wh/mile, S ZF9 uses 69.2 Wh/mile.
It would be interesting to know if the Empulse was tested on the UDDS using all of the transmission's gears or if it was left in one gear. Those Wh/mile figures are quite close, and the ZF9 weighs quite a bit less than the Empulse.
Brammo claim the gears contribute to a longer range. But how big that contribution is they don't say.
Empulse weighs 100 lbs more and has heavier, probably stickier tires. IET might actually help city range a bit, since the motor won't spend as much time in the inefficient low RPM / high load regions .. but balanced against mechanical losses from the IET.
Also you should probably use the nominal capacities, not the max capacities.. and you're actually flipping the units.
Empulse R is 440 lbs / 9.31 kWh = 47.3 lbs / kWh
Zero S ZF9 is 341 lbs / 7.88 kWh = 43.3 lbs / kWh
You also want to consider rider weight, aero drag, and constant loads (headlight, control systems). I imagine the EPA dyno load has a very simple model for these parameters.
A very simple model for power required to maintain a certain speed is basically constant load + rolling resistance * weight * velocity + aero area * (effective air velocity) ^ 2
Energy per mile then is the integral of the power required over the course of the mile .. or assuming constant parameters, power / velocity. (watt / mph = watt-hours / mile)
Energy per mile is then constant load / velocity + rolling resistance * weight + aero area * air velocity
Here's a good calculator to start with:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php (http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php)
Empulse R (http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php?Weight=620&WeightUnits=lbs&CRR=.03&Cd=.65&FrontalArea=0.70&FrontalAreaUnits=m^2&FuelWh=33557&IceEfficiency=0.92&DrivetrainEfficiency=0.85&ParasiticOverhead=100&rho=1.22&FromToStep=5-200-5):
620 lbs w/ rider
0.03 Crr (sticky tires)
0.65 Cd (aero fairing helps a bit)
0.7 A (rider in a bit of a tuck)
0.92 Engine efficiency (really engine + controller)
0.85 Drivetrain efficiency (IET has losses, chain > belt)
100w parasitic overhead (lights)
35 mph: 2.46 kW, 70 Wh/mile, 132 miles
45 mph: 4.02 kW, 89 Wh/mile, 104 miles
55 mph: 6.26 kW, 114 Wh/mile, 82 miles
65 mph: 9.31 kW, 143 Wh/mile, 65 miles
70 mph: 11.2 kW, 160 Wh/mile, 58 miles
Zero S (http://ecomodder.com/forum/tool-aero-rolling-resistance.php?Weight=520&WeightUnits=lbs&CRR=0.2&Cd=0.8&FrontalArea=0.8&FrontalAreaUnits=m^2&FuelWh=33557&IceEfficiency=0.90&DrivetrainEfficiency=0.94&ParasiticOverhead=100&rho=1.22&FromToStep=5-200-5):
520 lbs w/ rider
0.02 Crr (less sticky tires)
0.8 Cd
0.8 A
0.90 Engine efficiency (really varies based on speed)
0.94 Drivetrain efficiency (belt is a little worse than chain, still pretty good)
100w parasitic overhead
35 mph: 2.32 kW, 67 Wh/mile, 118 miles
45 mph: 4.21 kW, 94 Wh/mile, 84 miles
55 mph: 7.04 kW, 128 Wh/mile, 62 miles
65 mph: 11.0 kW, 170 Wh/mile, 46 miles
70 mph: 13.5 kW, 193 Wh/mile, 41 miles
Note that these numbers are just for steady state cruising, I could probably tweak the parameters a bit to match Zero's 55 mph (XU) and 70 mph (S/DS) and Brammo's 70 mph numbers. The EPA UDDS city test has a lot of stops and starts, and those will significantly penalize the heavier Empulse.
Note too that in steady state driving, even at 35 mph aerodynamic drag is fully 50% of the power used.
A very simple model
*SNIP*
I rode there on backroads, never exceeding 35 MPH, in ECO mode. The ride took over two hours and I got there with one bar left on the gauge (6.6 miles/bar).
If folks are making 50 mile trips on 5 bars - that's 10 miles/bar. Is that what I should be expecting?
The most charge I have put into the bike was about 8.1kWh and that was after depleting all the bars...You also have a ZF9? Considering the energy loss during charging it should take a little more than the maximum battery capacity to charge up the pack - right? (Help me out here you engineers out there). With a depleted 9 kWh battery pack it should take about 10 kW of electricity from the grid to charge it back up, correct? Likewise - like ColoPaul said, with a ZF6 it should take about 6 kW to charge up a depleted 6 kWh pack (a little more for energy losses during charging). I'm getting exactly the kind of range that ColoPaul is getting on his ZF6.
so the mis-programmed theory is probably wrong.
*************************************************************
* Pack Configuration *
*************************************************************
- Pack Type : S/DS
- Number of Series Cells : 18
- Number of Parallel Cells : 6
- Number of Bricks : 3
- Theoretical Pack Capacity : 120000000 uAh
- Estimated Pack Capacity : 120000000 uAh
Curious - since the top "sustained" speed is limited to 75 MPH - how did you do the range tests at higher speeds?
Again - my range (ZF9) is very similar to your range at 50-65 MPH... I'm dropping my bike off at Zero tomorrow - not sure how long they'll have it, but as soon as I know anything I'll post it here.
I just did my first range test on my 2012 DS ZF9. I went 74 miles at 34 mph average. Temperature was about 62 F. I had 1 flashing bar remaining. Started fully charged.
Elevation profile below. Profile is missing about 1.5 miles because I forgot my GPS and had to go back and get it.
(http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/2260/y9fp.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/y9fp.jpg/)
Jerome
Zero have heavily hinted that this was designed this way to give the bike the electric equivalent of a reserve tank.
The "reserve" is quite reliable. After you run out once, you will know how long it lasts. Just takes balls to ride on reserve.
TIP
Your reserve reading is most accuar=te after you have charged the bike. Meaning if you go somewhere, stop for 2 hours and don't charge the bike, your energy reading will rise a bar or so, and your reserve will have less in it as a result.
I have on 2-3 occasions done this and has WAY less reserve than I thought. I will make up for this by riding slower when needed. Which is painful for me.
-EC
That's really useful info to know.
I've seen the power gauge rise by a bar a few times (including the big 80 mile round trip I talked about above) and its useful to know how that relates to the "reserve"
Is this a feature of the chemistry of the batteries? If so I suppose that Zero engineered in the "reserve" to allow for that sort of behavior.
go to www.airtech-streamlining.com (http://www.airtech-streamlining.com) they have some really awesome looking fairings