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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Richard230 on February 18, 2012, 05:32:18 AM
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Protomech spotted the charger used by Zero in their 2012 street models: http://www.delta-q.com/products/QuiQ-dci.shtml (http://www.delta-q.com/products/QuiQ-dci.shtml)
If this isn't the charger it is an exact duplicate. Just flip the picture of the charger in the PDF file over and there you go.
I when I charge my bike after a ride I hook it up to a Kill A Watt meter. The meter shows the power drawn from the wall outlet. I find the meter reading kind of interesting. When I first plug in, I typically see about 7.38 amps (at 121 volts), a couple of hours later, I see just slightly over 8 amps. It hangs around that number until the bulk charging is completed, when the power drops to 7 watts, where it stays as long as the charger is plugged in.
I find it interesting that the charger draw is a little less than Zero's specifications and it would appear that the charging time to replenish a depleted battery pack would be increased accordingly.
And that got me thinking. I wonder if I could purchase a second charger (an announced Zero accessory) and plug it into the same wall outlet? Could my nominal 15 amp circuit handle 16 amps if I made sure that nothing else was hooked up to the circuit at the same time?
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I asked Harlan about this a few months ago and he indicated that it worked okay.
I think one of two things would happen:
1. Sooner or later you'd trip a breaker. Not really dangerous, but might be a bit disappointed if it tripped 30 minutes into a 3 hour charge.
2. It'd be just fine.
Since the quick chargers aren't really a portable setup, you'd probably just install them at home. Might as well run a second circuit or upgrade to 20A service.
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A lot of modern home wall outlets are 12ga, 20 amp, circuits so you should be OK. You can easilly check the rating on the breaker to the outlet you are planning to use.
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With my electric bike, My Giant DH comp, i'm using a 1500W 48V adjustable meanwell power supply. The output i get until CC-CV is 1700W DC out... that's charging pretty fast my lipo!
The PF is 0.99 and it draw 18A from the outlet... yes.. a normal 15A outlet with 15A breaker... sometime it trip.. sometime not... i know i'll have to upgrade it as well... i'm in the p^roject of adding a subpannel in my garage lab. i already have the 6/3 industrial 3 conductor + ground cable. will be perfect for up to 10kW charging station 8)
Meanwell are cheap and really conpact and powerfull charging solution! the RSP-1500 is 432$ brand new and sometime 200$ on ebay
My coming zero 2011 will need 58V CC-CV so i'll add some 5V 30A arthesyn dc-dc converter in serie to boost the voltage at 5V/step because the meanwell itself can only do 56V max... maybe i'll find the internal resistor that is limiting the potentiometer adjustment range and tweak it to gain +2V and will not need the dc-dc..
I wonder if the zero.. 2011 or 2012 can charge at 1C rate ?.. ex a 70Ah could charge at 70A ? without reducing their life or blowing the bms due to reverse current flow...?
Luke any idea?
Doc
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Zero's specs indicate the ZF3 XU and X (2.6 kwh) can charge with 2x 1kw chargers and the ZF6 S and DS (5.3 kwh) can charge with 4x 1kw chargers. That's a 0.75C charge rate.
I'd be interested to hear as well if a faster charge rate is supported.
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Battery spec is 0.5C but take that for what its worth
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Hmm so it would be 2h recommanded minimum...
Doc
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Doc, the 2011 batteries are different, they can handle higher charging current.
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I was told that I would get my high-speed charger in "February", but I haven't heard anything about it since I got my bike (1 month ago). I sent an email today to the dealership to see if I can get some updated info.
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Hello there,
In principle Zero has planned -for 2012 models as far as I know- that you can charge the bike installing a SAE J1772 connector in your bike and using it in a proper charging power station (I live in Barcelona and that is something the government is working on, today you may charge any electrical vehicle for free in regular stations (not J1772) here until 2014...is not a bad deal, is it?).
I will tell you how it works as soon as I get my ZF9...they are not available in Spain yet.
If it is done as planned you could charge the bike in 20min...(the system bypass the std. charger)
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Lipo, a J1772 inlet just provides for communication between the bike and the charging station as well as supplies contacts for the 240V AC supply to the bike. The on-board charger on the bike converts AC power to DC power at the desired voltage and current levels to charge the battery.
Per the Delta-Q QuiQ's specifications, it can draw at most 5A from 240V AC. It doesn't care whether you're getting the 240V AC straight from the wall (for spain and euro countries that supply 240V) or from the J1772 inlet. Even though the wall can usually supply 15A and J1772 can usually supply 30A or more, the onboard charger can't use more.
The 2011 bikes had an optional J1772 inlet, and supposedly the 2012 bike will have that option as well.
Per Harlan above the fastest you would want to charge the batteries anyhow is 2 hours (0.5C).
I expect Zero will build J1772 standard and a faster onboard charger next year to compete with the Empulse. Supposing the Empulse is out by then, of course : P
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Thanks Protomech,
That was actually what I said, and I was told that the dealer is working with the government to get "Zero" adapted-specific stations...which sounds nice.
Don't know the way they will achieve this, as practically they should make voltage Zero-specific chargers + being compatible with Zero BMS protocol...
In any case quick charging will degradate battery life (with today's Lithium available chemistries)
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Interesting.
I think Tesla has the best shot at pushing vehicle-specific chargers through - they've sold 2500 roadsters (mostly in cali), have preorders for 8000 model S.. and I don't think they have a good shot, just the best one. I don't know how many bikes zero has sold or how many of them are in spain.
A 7.9 kwh pack needs around 24 kw to do a bulk charge in 20 minutes, or 350 amps at 70v. 3-4 inch diameter cable.
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I agree...
So far they have sold none, I was told I have been one of the first ones in ordering one ;D
Will let you guys know how it goes...
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The only "supported" way to charge a zero faster is to use more delta q chargers. The J1772 is basically just a glorified dryer plug and doesn't enable the delta q's to charge any faster or to bypass them in any way. Now, if/when Chademo takes off in the US like it has everywhere else, we should be able to charge at whatever the cells will support. Up to 60kw anyways :) If you had a 10KWH Nano-Tech battery, you could do a 100% recharge in 10 minutes!
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I got the email today that my charger arrived at the dealership. I'll be picking it up tomorrow morning. Looking forward to quick charging!
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Please let us know how it works...I will probably order one with my ZF9 ;)
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I used the Quick Charger today for the first time.
I first checked to make sure that I plugged it into an outlet that is on a separate circuit from the outlet that I usually use.
Using the Kill-O-Watt meter that I picked up this morning I monitored the current draw from both the onboard charger, and the offboard Quick Charger. The combined current draw was just shy of 16 Amps.
I only needed to charge up the last three bars, which would normally take close to three hours, but this time it charged up in about 1 1/2 hours - as hoped.
The charger just fits in the tail bag - so I'm ready for a long ride now :-)
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Thanks for the write-up on the charger, oobflyer. I might have to pick one up one of these days. I figure that my wall outlet might be able to handle 16 amps without blowing a fuse. In all the years that I have lived in my home I have never tripped a breaker, so maybe there is some useful slack in the circuit that I can use.
What do you think about the Kill A Watt meter? Those things are kind of fun and watching the meter show amps or watts sure is easier than getting down on your hands and knees to look at the little LEDs on the charger under the front of the bike to check on bulk charging.
As a note, when the charger goes off bulk and on to trickle, it uses 7 to 8 watts as long as you keep it plugged in. Kind of like a incandescent night light.
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I charged longer today, after a longer ride (about 25 miles, using 5 bars).
I plugged both chargers in and started my stopwatch ;)
It took about 2 1/2 hours to top off the batteries. I have to say "about" because the Quick charger indicated that the batteries were full, while the LED display on the Quick charger was still indicating that the batteries were charging. I put the Kill A Watt meter into the circuit with the Quick charger and found that it was still drawing 3 Amps, despite the "full" indicator. I put the meter into the circuit with the onboard charger and it indicated just a trickle charge (less than 1 Amp) despite the fact that the onboard LED lights were still blinking from left to right, as if charging. The fuel gauge on the dash indicated "full" sometime around the 2 1/2 hour mark.
I have no doubt that it was doing what it was supposed to... just difficult to say exactly when the batteries were full and how long it took.
Never-the-less, it again took about 1/2 of the time as usual (about two bars per hour, instead of one bar per hour), so I'm very pleased - and anxious to take it on a longer ride
:)
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It just looks like the standard charger but with a beefier lead?...
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I have some hope that we'll see a faster onboard charger next year, and it very likely will be possible to retrofit the 2012 bikes.
The Delta-Q has some nice perks, 110/220 auto-ranging, weather resistance, silent operation, and 12V DC conversion. Maximum output is not one of them.
Consider:
Delta-Q QuiQ-dci (PDF) (http://www.delta-q.com/products/720-0004_Rev-5_QuiQ_DCI_Data_Sheet_compact.pdf) is 246 mm x 278 mm x 110 mm, < 6 kg. In fairness much of the volume is taken up by the connectors and the heatsinks, which allow it to allow it to cool without forced-air. The actual charging body is probably closer to 210 mm x 180 mm x 110 mm. The charger can output 12A maximum, which means bulk charge (72-76V?) is probably < 900W charger output.
Elite Power Solutions sells a 72V 20A charger (http://elitepowersolutions.com/products/product_info.php?cPath=9&products_id=32), dimensions are 264 mm x 158 mm x 76.2 mm, weight unknown. It operates on a single 110v circuit and probably pulls about 15A. Forced air charger.
Kelly Controllers sells a 72V 30A charger (http://kellycontroller.com/hwc4-series-72v30a-charger-p-383.html), dimensions are 291 mm x 210 mm x 120 mm. Weight is either 5.7 kg or 8.0 kg (different weights claimed at different places). It operates on a 220v circuit and pulls a maximum of 14A. It is also a forced-air charger, and since it's not an auto-ranging charger (110/220v) probably not suitable for an onboard charger anyhow (constant voltage too?).
TC Chargers (formerly Elcon? unclear) has a 60-83V 30A charger (http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=23), dimensions are 352 mm x 195 mm x 139 mm, weight is 7.1 kg. They also sell a smaller 60-83V 20A charger (http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=17), same dimensions but 175 mm width instead of 195 and 6.3 kg. Like the Delta-Q, these are sealed weather-resistant chargers that use external heatsinks to radiate heat away. Also like the Delta-Q, they're autoranging and support input AC voltages from 85-265V and 45-65 Hz.
None of these chargers have an integrated DC-to-DC converter, so they would need a separate DC-to-DC converter. The forced air chargers are probably not suitable for mounting where the Delta-Q is currently, and the Elcon / TC charger is likely too large.
Still. It's clearly possible to produce a higher-power onboard charger... question is when Zero will do it.
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The charger on my 2012 Zero S shows a maximum power consumption of around 900 watts on my Kill A Watt meter, although it does vary a bit from hour to hour when I look at the meter. The most draw I have ever seen is 950 watts, but most of the time it is closer to 850 watts. ???
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The 2.5 kW Elcon would allow the bike to charge in about 4.5 hours on 220, which would be a good use for the J1772 inlet.
Richard230, do you have any good shots of the charger compartment where the Delta-Q sits? Do you have any feel for the tolerances of the compartment?
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The 2.5 kW Elcon would allow the bike to charge in about 4.5 hours on 220, which would be a good use for the J1772 inlet.
Richard230, do you have any good shots of the charger compartment where the Delta-Q sits? Do you have any feel for the tolerances of the compartment?
The charger sits at the bottom of the bike, protected by a plastic belly pan. Without removing the bodywork, I don't think a dentist could see in there. Looking at what I can see of the charger (on my hands and knees, with my eyeball poked into the inspection port), I would say that clearances between the charger box and its fins are at best 1/4 inch. There is a small inspection port at the lower right front of the fairing that shows the LED charging status indicators and you can see a row of fins along the right side of the bike, next to the lower frame rails, but nothing that would make a very informative photo with my camera. It is amazing that they can get rid of the charger heat without a fan, but I guess they do. I'll have to check the temperature of the charger with a remote temperature gauge when this rain finally stops and I can ride around and recharge again.
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It is going to be challenging to get a + 1Kw charger without a proper cooling system (which makes the whole thing useless as a "all weather charger"), convection cooling -like the Delta Q one- would need a quite big charger as you need to dissipate the heat anyway
Elcon offers an alternative as protomech pointed out, but it is IP 46 certified while Delta Q comes with an IP 66 enclosure.
(IP 46 it equals to splashing water, while IP 66, it right below first immersion level on the IP levels -IP 7X-)
From what I have heard (no personal experience) Delta makes high quality chargers
In any case, I would love to see a more powerful onboard charger in the bike, no question...
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Well, I see what you mean now! Pretty tight fit.
Lipo423 - good call about the IP codes, I saw that but had no idea what it was.
If wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code) is to believed, the first digit ('4' in IP46) is a solid ingress code, the second digit ('6' in IP46) is a liquid ingress code.
'4' for solid ingress means protected against objects of size > 1 mm, but will allow dust to pass in. (Elcon)
'6' for solid ingress means completely dust-tight. (Delta-Q)
'6' for liquid ingress means protected against powerful water jets - ie, you can hose down the charger without issues. No immersion still. (Both)
Sounds like the Elcon charger would be fine in water, but probably would need dust filters installed if mounted where the Delta-Q is .. which won't do good things for heat. Hm.
From the QuiQ User Guide (PDF) (http://www.delta-q.com/documents/710-0098_User_Guide_Rev_1.pdf):
Maintenance Instructions
1. Do not expose charger to oil, dirt, mud or direct heavy water spray when cleaning vehicle.
...
3. The enclosure of the charger has been tested successfully to EN60529, meeting IP66. The AC supply inlet is rated to IP20, which is suitable for indoor use only. Keep all AC connections clean and dry.
So maybe not a good idea to hose down the ports that expose the charger, but hosing down the bike is probably fine.
I assume what they're talking about the AC supply inlet is just the AC receptacle, which is recessed enough to keep out fingers but not other small objects or liquids - meaning that the integrity of the charger won't be compromised by the receptacle. Outdoor charging in the rain might be a bad idea, especially if water can drip down the charging cable into the charger socket.
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There is also BMSbattery.com that sell very good charger ( cheap but work great and are powerfull! ( we are many on Endless-Sphere to have bought some fof the 900W, 1200W, 1500W and me the 2000W.
Actually the 2000W is on sale at 223$ !!! http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37437&p=544952&hilit=2000W#p544952 (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=37437&p=544952&hilit=2000W#p544952)
You can ask them to set it to the desired voltage and current ( CC-CV) and also the balance current ( trickle)
here is a thread i made about mine ( i also modified it to include the cycle analyst display to count the Ah and Wh i put in the bike and added some external 10 turn pot and also some sense voltage probe on the output connector and few other mods)
But as well without these mod, it is still really interesting! it also display the voltage anc current
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29096&hilit=2000W (http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29096&hilit=2000W)
Modified:
(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=73589)
(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=73591)
(http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=73592)
Original:
(http://bmsbattery.com/164-214-thickbox/alloy-shell-2000w-lifepo4li-ionlead-acid-battery-ev-charger.jpg)
Here is the link of the BMSBATTERY store: http://www.bmsbattery.com/alloy-shell/164-alloy-shell-2000w-lifepo4li-ionlead-acid-battery-ev-charger.html (http://www.bmsbattery.com/alloy-shell/164-alloy-shell-2000w-lifepo4li-ionlead-acid-battery-ev-charger.html)
Doc
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Also, about the battery charger, i wonder how much current the new EIG cells in the 2012 battery can take on charge ?.. I know that the 2011 and older battery that use the molicel 26700A cells can take up to 7A per cells ( wich is 2.5C) so for a 70A battery it is a theoric max charge current of 175A... but as well the actual colling and BMS of the 2011 battery dont allow that as well...
I am building a charger that will push around 1C ( 70A) into my 2011 DS battery to charge it in 1 hour. These cahrger will use 3 of my Meanwell 48V power supply connected in parallel. They have all a PFC of 0.99 and are really efficient.
One is 1500W and two other are 1000W for a total of 3500W ( actually sustain 4000W no prob)
They are:
-Meanwell RSP-1500-48
-Meanwell RSP-1000-48
-Meanwell RCP-1000-48
All are adjustable up to 57V wich is really close to the 14S LiMn cells of the CC-CV of the 2011 battery packs.
I'm actually charging my electric DH bike with those 8)
Doc
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Nice job Doc,
I look at the thread of the modified charger...good job again :o I have also bought some staff from BMSbattery, and they have good quality from what they charge...
Good to know Zero is using EIG cells on the 2012 battery packs (I thought they were still made by Molicel).
Very nice solution for a home charger.
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I can tell when my bike is fully charged. The charger cord is no longer hot.
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When I charge using the Delta-Q charger, I never see the 80% bulk LED light up or the ammeter LEDs (I II III IV V). Only the AC integrity LED and the full charge LED (when charging is done) light up in my experience.
Do others see the ammeter LEDs on their QuiQs light up as the manual indicates?
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I just plugged in my charger (my bike was fully charged yesterday and I pulled the plug for the night). The bulk charge indicators came on with a green light at the bottom and two yellow lights above it. The the amp meter did not light up. A few minutes later, the upper yellow light went off and now only the green light and the yellow light directly above it are lit.
A couple of hours later I happened to look at the charger again and both yellow lights were on, as well as the green light. Now I don't know if I am seeing double or being confused by those yellow lights. ??? So the green light appears to mean that the charger is plugged in (when I pulled the plug, all the lights went dark). The yellow light above it means that the battery is fully charged, but the owner's manual says this should turn green when the pack is 100% charged, but I don't think I have ever seen it green, just yellow. The top yellow light indicates that the pack is 80% charged and the charger is on the "absorption" phase - whatever that means. When I look at the Kill A Watt meter, all I ever see is either bulk charging (750-950 watts) or trickle charging (7 watts) and nothing in between.
I think I recall seeing the amp meter indicators lit up once, but I may have gotten that confused with the row of lights below it. If this rain ever ends, I'll ride my bike around to drain the battery some and double-check what is going on when I plug it in with a discharged battery. I must say, those indicators are not very easy to see, although using a flashlight helps. That is why I usually use my Kill A Watt to see what is going on with the charger.
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While my bike was charging today, I took a close look at the charger indicator lights. One big issue is that the charger is installed upside down, compared with the illustration contained in the owner's manual for the 2012 S and DS models. Also, it appears that the light from one indicator bleeds over to the adjacent indicator, making it look like they are both lit. But, by standing on my head, I finally figured out what was going on.
When recharging after a ride, the charger lights up the "11111" ammeter position (which bleeds over to the "1111" light). As near as I can tell, it stays at that maximum charging indicator until the charger shuts off and it goes on trickle charge, which gives you a green light on position "C" on the set of four indicator lights located above the ammeter indicators as shown in the manual.
When the pack is bulk charging, position "D" lights up yellow, indicating that the AC is on. But it's yellow light bleeds over to position "E", which is the fault indicator and should turn red (which I have never seen), not yellow, if the charger has a problem. I just checked the lights again and light "C" is flashing yellow, indicating that the charger is in its "absorption" phase and charging is nearing completion. The Kill A Watt is showing a charge rate of 950 watts.
The charging is now complete. The meter is reading 7 watts, light "C" is now green, the light above it is yellow, indicating that the charger is still plugged in, and the ammeter is dark.
All-in-all, it is probably best if you just don't look at those lights. It will make your head spin less and the knees of your pants last longer. ::)