ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Nukie on May 04, 2012, 06:48:52 PM
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http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/bike-life-electric/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/bike-life-electric/)
Thoughts? i think he raises some valid points. How has your experience compared?
I've been contemplating a Zero DS purchase.
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Thanks for the link. As an owner of Zero DS ZF9 I can say some of his points are completely valid, some are bogus though.
Here is my take:
- Yes, Zero DS cannot be used as a primary vehicle. How am I supposed to carry any bulkier purchase home without a car?
- I am getting 60 mile range when I ride it on hwy 101 at highway speeds (70-75 mph). Riding in traffic, the range goes up to 80-90 miles.
- Recharging 45 min here and there helps. Perhaps the author was connecting to dead outlets?
- Sure, the stock tires are cheap. But simple Google query for "3.00x16 tires" reveals plenty of places local and online willing to sell you these tires.
- Completely agree about the mirrors and the brake line.
- My own gripe is the instrument cluster (it is mounted at a wrong angle, is pretty much unreadable and doesn't display charging information).
That being said I am finding my Zero DS is an excellent commuter/second vehicle. I am lucky that I fit all the points in "Could you do it?" section. My commute is 27.7 miles one way via highway (at 70 mph) and I can plug in at work, proudly taking one of the "electric vehicle only" spots. Even if I couldn't plug in at work I wouldn't feel range anxiety for 56 miles round trip. If I saw I was depleting the battery too much on a highway (i.e. due to a strong headwind) I would just exit it and ride slowly back home (yes, I have done it before and it worked LOL).
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I'm getting more like 40 miles if I ride continuously at highway speeds (70 mph, S ZF9).
I agree on all his "could you do it" points except the last. My typical commute is 25-60 miles (40-60 mph speeds), I have no problem doing this on a single charge (cannot charge at work sadly). If you can charge at work (or any place where you can conveniently leave the bike for a length of time), then you can easily handle a longer commute or impromptu trips.
Short charges definitely help, I ride over to a friend's house (20 miles, ~3 bars) at 5:15 a few times a week to run, plug in when I get home at 6:30, bike has almost a full charge when I leave for work at 7:30 - 8:30. The problem is that the energy gauge is ridiculously low resolution (11 bars), it's useless as an indication of how much charge you pick up in 45 minutes.
The onboard charger IME charges approximately 1.1 bars per hour.
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Thanks. This is great feedback. I really appreciate it. Keep it coming.
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Hmm. A little cynical, methinks. I too meet his requirements, but I'll comment on a couple:
1. As to his "extremeny easy" access to outlets comment, well, I live in an apartment. How do I access my outlet? Drive the bike into my apartment, of course. Try that with any gas bike. This also encourages me to ride a lot more, as the bike is readily available. This is a non-issue if you own a home I think.
2. Yes, you have to have access to a gas vehicle. As some else stated, you really need a car, as you can't carry any large items on a bike. I'll combine that with his pickup comment by saying that I wouldn't be without a pickup period, bike or no bike.
3. I live in a relatively small town, and have done a fair bit of "impromptu" riding. I haven't found the lack of range to be an issue. I can't ride the bike the 60 miles to the nearest major city, but I pretty much knew that going in.
As for the tires, I'm not sure how fast he's trying to ride, but I have gotten some pretty good lean in some corners and have yet to feel like I was about to lose traction. They may not be great dirt tires, but most dual-sport knobbies aren't; they're inherently a compromise.
And last but certainly not least: I usually put a tank of gas per week into my truck, at a cost of $70-80+. Since I've had the Zero, I've put in one tank in FOUR weeks.
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Wes Siler of, Hell for Leather is certainly a "glass half full" kind of guy. I wonder if he was looking for some leather on the Zero and maybe a V-twin between his legs. ::) A bit too negative for me.
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I agree completely with Richard230. I thought the article was very negative. :( He clearly didn't get any enjoyment out of the positives of the Zero. Truth is, an electric motorcycle is not for everyone - so why did he write an article that started out assuming it should be?
Nukie: I have a daily commute regimen of about 30 miles. I can charge easily at home. I don't typically transport kids or major appliances. I don't get impromptu calls from women 50 miles away wanting me to deliver them lunch. My employer won't let me charge at work, but I still have enough leftover to run errands at lunch. The bike (with a backpack) works great for me, is really fun to ride, and I can go 240 miles on $2 of electricity. You live in Colorado, so like me you're looking at $5000-$6000 in tax rebates.
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that's it about for me with WIRED - or at least their "autoblog", copied a rather negatice review and published it. used to read it a bit. this half bake review -- she has not even ridden the bike ? not much mentioning how much fun it is and goes of on some details. ignoring as well that other bikes in the range have say 17" wheels only etc....
as for the only mode of transport. or let's say owned transport the Zero can work. With a strong growing car share (goget.com.au etc.) developing and whatever your needs are you just pick up a car or truck or van and rent it by the hour. much cheaper than owning a vehicle or full day traditional rentals.
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It appears the author did a whole series on his time with the Zero, of which Wired only picked up the last installment. You apparently have to subscribe to his e-motomag to read the rest of them, but the "trailers" for one or two of them seem to paint the Zero in a more positive light.
In another of his Wired pieces, he describes his recuperation period after he rolls a Russian sidecar rig and breaks his wrist, rendering him unable to ride a motorcycle for two weeks. Apparently his livelihood, friendships, love life, and sanity rely in large part on his ability to lane-split. I don't live in California, so I can't comment on how much of a life essential that is, but since motorcycling is somewhat risky I'd think he would at least have a "plan B" :)
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[...] his ability to lane-split. I don't live in California, so I can't comment on how much of a life essential that is [...]
Los Angeles != California :)
People do lane splits here in the Bay Area but I find them largely unnecessary. If the traffic here was so bad as it is rumored is down there in LA, I'd probably lane split as well.
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When my daughter was going to UCSD she would visit me on the weekends and leave San Diego on Friday evening. She said that she would typically have to split lanes for 50 miles on the 405 to get to my house, just south of San Francisco by 6 am in the morning on her Suzuki GS500E. She figured splitting lanes saved her over an hour getting through LA on a Friday night.
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The author makes a valid points about range being less than people probably thought, and outlets being few and far between; however, a commuter should have this all figured out before he bought. A half hour charge on my bike does a lot...gains 2 bars at least so I disagree with him there. I thought everyone understood you needed some kind of backup. I have heard of people who just have a motorcycle or even a bicycle, but most of us need a car or truck for stuff, family members, bad weather, etc. and so if you had a gas motorcycle for backup, you would still need a car. I think there are a lot of people though who know exactly what their commute is going to entail and can get there and back on an electric motorcycle just fine. My situation is different than the author's and I can think of lots of situations where he would be just as helpless if he had a gas motorcycle...needing to pick up a kid from school, get home on snow and ice, give a colleague a ride home, pick up a case of bottled water from the grocery, etc.
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I think the reviewer (Wes Siler) was negatively biased, and I said so by posting this comment on Wired.com:
Wes' negative bias has crept into his writing.
I have one of these bikes - a 2012 ZF9 - so I may also be a bit biased. I've ridden my bike not for two weeks, but for four months and 2,200 miles. You made some significant mistakes in your reporting - we should fix this.
First of all my tires still look brand new - Zero put "Road Winner" tires on the ZF9 - a $130 tire made in Japan.
Secondly, 60 miles per charge sounds like freeway-only riding. Most people do a combination of city/freeway riding and will get more range. I have achieved over 80 miles per charge riding at 45 MPH.
Third, the charge time you mentioned applies to situations when the batteries are completely dead. Who drives their car until it runs out of gas before going to the gas station? Most people will plug-in when the batteries are still partially charged - and - you don't have to have a 100% charge to start riding, just as you can put a few bucks worth of gas in your car to get you where you're going and fill-up later. The quick charger charges the bike up at a rate of 2 'bars' (11 is 'full') every 45 minutes. If you plug in and taking a 90 minute lunch break (for example) you have charged over 30%.
Fourth, your comments about calculating round-trip mileage vs. one-way are silly and condescending. You really think no one thought of this before? How does this differ from any other vehicle?
Fifth, you are wrong about the outlets. I have been riding electric motorcycles for four years and have never had a problem finding an outlet - and I don't live in L.A. For example, I checked into a hotel last night - asked the desk clerk if I could charge up for a couple of hours and he happily showed me where I could plug-in. My wife and I rode 25 miles to a restaurant, found a public charging station two blocks from the restaurant, charged while having dinner, and rode back to the hotel where I plugged-in once again.
Sixth, your comment about employers "condoning such behavior" is, again, silly, with the insinuation that "such behavior" is undesireable. Many companies want to portray a "green" image and will be happy to accommodate employees that want or need to charge at work (mine does).
This bike is a huge leap in EV evolution. You won't likely ride it across country, I'll give you that, but as a "second" vehicle it will end up providing 90% of your transportation needs while your "first" vehicle sits in the garage collecting spider webs and dust.
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Thanks to Brammofan, who provided the link at the Brammo Owners Forum, here is the video of the Hell for Leather review: The Shocking Truth About Electric Motorcycles - RIDEAPART (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lej-KopK1tc#ws)
The video is worse than the print version, unfortunately. >:(
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Thanks to Brammofan, who provided the link at the Brammo Owners Forum, here is the video of the Hell for Leather review: The Shocking Truth About Electric Motorcycles - RIDEAPART (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lej-KopK1tc#ws)
The video is worse than the print version, unfortunately. >:(
LMAO! He rides it like he's bowlegged, which can't be good for wind resistance (or comfort should he need to punch the brakes and keep himself from slamming forward), and then when he "leans" into a corner with what looks like a whopping 20 degree lean angle (that's 20 degrees from vertical, not 20 degrees from the road), the leg comes out and he leans his body as if it's straining the limits of physics.
Ummm... Where did he learn to "ride"?
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LMAO! He rides it like he's bowlegged, which can't be good for wind resistance (or comfort should he need to punch the brakes and keep himself from slamming forward), and then when he "leans" into a corner with what looks like a whopping 20 degree lean angle (that's 20 degrees from vertical, not 20 degrees from the road), the leg comes out and he leans his body as if it's straining the limits of physics.
Ummm... Where did he learn to "ride"?
He's hanging off, like superbike racers (and some wanna-be racers) do. Guess he was worried about those "$3 Chinese tires". On my DS, those Deli-Tires have held at more severe lean angles than what he was doing. I've never felt the need to hang off. Then again, I've never owned a sportbike, so hanging off is not something I do automatically.
I gotta say, though, that I kinda like that Piaggio scooter :) May have to talk the g/f into one ;)
The funniest thing for me is that he intentionally drains the battery and then gets pissed that it strands him on the side of an interstate. Which only tells me that the real shocking truth about electric motorcyces is that they do not necessarily make their riders any smarter :)
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If he'd followed the manufacturer's recommendation of plugging in, while he was drinking beer and bashing the bike, he wouldn't have run out of energy on the freeway.
Duh
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Heh, for a fresh video (the viewcount still hasn't updated yet) having 74 dislikes vs. 209 likes just speaks for itself. Only Justin Bieber does worse ;-)
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I thought it was a nice touch that he peed into the LA freeway landscaping and that they went out of their way to show that illegal deed. That guy is a real jerk and his antics, such as swearing and flipping his audience the bird at the end of the video, does nothing to get his message across (such as it is). However, I do agree that the Piaggio scooter looked nice.
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LMAO! He rides it like he's bowlegged, which can't be good for wind resistance (or comfort should he need to punch the brakes and keep himself from slamming forward), and then when he "leans" into a corner with what looks like a whopping 20 degree lean angle (that's 20 degrees from vertical, not 20 degrees from the road), the leg comes out and he leans his body as if it's straining the limits of physics.
Ummm... Where did he learn to "ride"?
He's hanging off, like superbike racers (and some wanna-be racers) do.
Well, yes, I knew what he thought he was doing. But, at those lean angles? They lean off because they are reaching the edge of their tires and possibly on a street bike because you are reaching the point where you will start dragging hardware. The bike can't lean any more, but you can move over and shift the CoG without leaning the bike past its limit.
But him? Why was he doing it? Cuz it lookz kewl? Overall, everything he was doing was just sloppy riding with a hint of "whee, look at me, I'm a hot shot racer dude!"
Guess he was worried about those "$3 Chinese tires". On my DS, those Deli-Tires have held at more severe lean angles than what he was doing.
Even the cheapest tires can hold a lean angle way past what he was showing. And if they are reaching their limit, then hanging off doesn't reduce the G forces, it just changes where the contact patch delivers them from, so again, sloppy riding.
I've never felt the need to hang off. Then again, I've never owned a sportbike, so hanging off is not something I do automatically.
Neither have I, though in a Dual Sport clinic the instructor once made the case for reverse leaning (at low speeds having to do with using the camber of the tire to turn a tighter corner than it would if it was in line with your body). We tried it as part of the exercise. It was an interesting effect, but not something I bother with in practice (though I did use the technique to help scrub some brand new tires a couple of weeks ago - ride on a part of the tire that wouldn't normally be scuffed at lower G forces than it would normally take to scuff them).
Also, the knee going out has more to do with feeling for the angle of the road than weight transfer. The weight of the leg isn't going to change the CoG angle much, but riding the puck around the apex gives a really accurate feel for just how near the limit you are getting. But, again, that only works if you are, ahem, close enough to the road for your knee to actually reach it.
I gotta say, though, that I kinda like that Piaggio scooter :) May have to talk the g/f into one ;)
It looks like a great ride. I was also a little annoyed with how they dramatized the scooter passing him - mainly because he wasn't riding the Zero very hard in the first place <face palm>. I have a friend with an old beater scooter that she bought off her daughter that died its last gasp. I'll have to point her in the direction of the Piaggios.
The funniest thing for me is that he intentionally drains the battery and then gets pissed that it strands him on the side of an interstate. Which only tells me that the real shocking truth about electric motorcyces is that they do not necessarily make their riders any smarter :)
My impression was not that he was pissed that it ran out of power, but that he was being melodramatic about the experience of "suddenly losing power" on the highway. Seriously? That happened to me on my test ride and I actually wrote on the comment form that it was a very positive experience since I was very pleased by how benign and well communicated its gradual loss of power was. It was as if a butler came along and told me "Excuse me sir, but we should gradually make our way over to an exit some time in the next few miles, if it is not too properly inconvenient, and our apologies for any inconvenience".
But, for him, "I don't want to talk right now, I'm really scared [gulps]". Really? Scared speechless? Over the gradual loss of power over the course of several miles? All I can say is "Yay!"...
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Here's a snippet of the exchange on Hell For Leather..
Devin | May 7, 2012 7:55 PM | Reply
I was surprised to see you riding so conservatively, even I hit it harder than that, and I don’t ride hard. So those $3 tires must really be $3 tires.
Wes Siler | May 7, 2012 8:44 PM | Reply
Remember there’s a chase truck I’m behind too. They didn’t much like me wizzing off into the distance. The point here is to tell a compelling story, not to stroke my ego.
Grant Ray | May 7, 2012 11:19 PM | Reply
(He totally wizzed off into the distance and got yelled at for doing so.)
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I think the BV350 tops out at 86 mph, not over 100 mph like he said.
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Sorry, flar, didn't mean to insult your intelligence. I really know nothing about the whole hanging-off thing, though your explanation of doing it for cornering limit feel vs. actually getting the bike to stick better makes sense.
Melodramatic is about the size of it. I'd be really surprised if that e-mag of his made any money. I wouldn't subscribe after reading and watching all this.
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No problem, Clic, I wasn't offended. I just thought that maybe I had crafted my point a little too cryptically close to sarcasm to make the points I was getting at...
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And for those of you who might have an interest in the Piaggio X10 350i scooter, here is a review by Ultimate Motorcycling:
http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012-piaggio-x10-350i-scooter-review (http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/2012-piaggio-x10-350i-scooter-review)
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Comparing the Electric bike to a gas bike is stupid. If he wanted to compare he should have compared it to another electric bike.
That's like saying the gas scooter fails because you can't plug it into the outlet in your garage.
His obvious immaturity should exclude his reviews from being taken seriously.
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I finally got a chance to watch the video review. I have to agree with you all about this guy not being the brightest bulb in the headlight. If you pause the video where his bike stalls out at the end and they show the instrument panel, it appears from the toggle he was riding the entire time in Sport mode. It's no wonder he got such poor range.
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Well, very little to add after you comments guys...I have read few vehicle reviews in my life as bad as this one (and I read quite a few already).
As a European, and having to pay today gas at $2-$2,5/litrer -yes, per litre, not gallon...you do find a lot of good reasons -and a way- to ride a non perfect electric and rather expensive motorcycle. What it really piss me off (just to set the same tone he does)is the fact that this is not a gas bike -this summarizes everything- and trying to compare a Zero 9 series with a gas bike, is like comparing the "practical use" an SR-71 Blackbird with a Boeing 747 >:(
Anyway, opinions are like "bottoms" everyone has one...
I apologize for my wording.
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I apologize for my wording.
No need to apologize.
BTW, speaking of Euro prices for gasoline.. I wonder if anyone has done a total cost of ownership comparison with a small gas bike.
Something like this:
http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=4&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=9&kWhC=0.08&eRng=70&bR=0&iceID=7&msrp=4199&gC=4&mpg=55&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000 (http://www.empulsebuyer.com/tcoCalculator.php?sTR=4&fTR=0&sTI=NA&eID=9&kWhC=0.08&eRng=70&bR=0&iceID=7&msrp=4199&gC=4&mpg=55&oCC=40&oCI=7500&sC=550&sI=15000)
I get 97k miles break-even when I punch in my parameters ($4/gal gas, $0.085/kWh, 70 mile range ZF9, 55 mpg 250), which matches my estimate of 100k miles over 10 years. I doubt the Ninja 250 can make 100k miles, but of course I don't know the Zero chassis or battery will make 10 years / 100k either.
If I just punch in $9/gal gas, I get a 52k mile break-even point.. but I know Euro purchase price, taxes, electricity, service costs will be rather different as well.
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Thanks protomech.
The Kw/h cost in Spain is around 0,16 Euro/Kw taxes included (18% VAT). Our lovely government will raise the prices soon...
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I used to belong to the Ninja 250 forum and the word there was that it was typical for the Ninja to need a replacement motor around 50K miles. Naturally, it depends upon how you ride and maintain the bike. But if you ride it hard, the recommendation was to find a used motor from a crashed bike and install it when the original motor wears out. That appears to be cheaper than overhauling the motor with new parts.
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Thanks Protomech! Cool site.
For ZF6, Colorado, Ninja250: 20450 mile break-even.
For ZF9, Colorado, Ninja250: 40498 mile break-even.
For EmpulseR, Colorado, Ninja250: 91402 mile break-even.
As a side note, I calculated that if I drive the Zero 36500 miles instead of my car, the money saved would pay for the purchase price of the Zero. :)
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What it really piss me off (just to set the same tone he does)is the fact that this is not a gas bike -this summarizes everything- and trying to compare a Zero 9 series with a gas bike, is like comparing the "practical use" an SR-71 Blackbird with a Boeing 747 >:(
I calculated the savings of riding the Zero vs. flying my SR-71, and the bike pays for itself in about 1 minute 23 seconds :)
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Mmmm...Clic, you must be mistaken, I made the numbers, and I come up with 1 minute 22 seconds :D
In the end, it is better to approach this with a good sense of humour...I wonder if there was any "particular" reason to approach the review that way...you never know...
I loved the way some of you guys reacted...it reminded me my "latin blood" behaviour ;)