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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: protomech on October 26, 2012, 10:09:24 AM
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http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/ (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/)
Looks like a solid upgrade all-round. The journalist notes that the 2013 bikes still use pouch cells, that the slightly larger frame makes for more confident riding, and that the Nissin brakes are a huge improvement.
Oh, and it's much faster than the 2012s. But we knew this :)
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Great review!
So the new z-force motor is designed by Ryan Biffard from Calgary. I know he is in touch with Luke for various E-technical stuff. Seem a great guy. He also was in a solar car team and SAE.
The new motor is having a low count of magnet i think and it have external stator wich is better cooled with the exterior fins.. just like many industrial comon desing of induction motor except that this one is using magnets.
I think that the Toyota Prius is also having magnet rotor. Also called PMSM ( Permanent Magnets Synchronous Motor) AKA Innrunner in the RC community
http://www.eecs.ucf.edu/~tomwu/course/eel6208/notes/17%20Permanent%20Magnet%20Motor%20Design.pdf (http://www.eecs.ucf.edu/~tomwu/course/eel6208/notes/17%20Permanent%20Magnet%20Motor%20Design.pdf)
Doc
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Incredible review by Alan Cathcart! This is a must read and share on forums and social media!!
And Doc, you have communicated with the motor designer on forums, you probably just don't realize it yet. ;)
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That is a really great review, which should help increase sales of the 2013 models. I hope they reprint it in the January issue of Motorcyclist magazine.
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Yes that is a great review and a great reviewer. Just the facts about the bike and how it rides, that's what I want to read. I'm even more excited about the 2013's now! I Hope the same journalist does a review of the DS. I know the 2 bikes are very close but I'd like to hear what he thinks about the DS' suspension.
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http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/ (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/)
Looks like a solid upgrade all-round. The journalist notes that the 2013 bikes still use pouch cells, that the slightly larger frame makes for more confident riding, and that the Nissin brakes are a huge improvement.
Oh, and it's much faster than the 2012s. But we knew this :)
Thanks for posting this. This is the first professional Zero product review ever without the usual hubris and editorializing.
Zero will blow through its 1,000 unit goal for 2013.
Still, I'm waiting for ABS, hoping to see it in 2014 models. Due to lack of ABS I won't take my 2012 S on the highway except under ideal weather conditions. I can control a bike in a skid under 40MPH but at highway speeds you got to have ABS.
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I, on the other hand, special ordered my last BMW (2009 F650GS) from the factory without ABS. I got the $1000 system when I bought my R12R and it has never been activated during the past 25,000 miles that I have ridden the bike. So I see it as a waste of money for me. Plus, it costs about $200 in labor to change the brake fluid in the ABS bike, when I had that work done during my 24K service earlier this year - which set me back a total of $850. :o I just changed the brake fluid in my "650" (actually an 800cc motor) this afternoon and the job only took 20 minutes to do both brakes.
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I, on the other hand, special ordered my last BMW (2009 F650GS) from the factory without ABS. I got the $1000 system when I bought my R12R and it has never been activated during the past 25,000 miles that I have ridden the bike. So I see it as a waste of money for me. Plus, it costs about $200 in labor to change the brake fluid in the ABS bike, when I had that work done during my 24K service earlier this year - which set me back a total of $850. :o I just changed the brake fluid in my "650" (actually an 800cc motor) this afternoon and the job only took 20 minutes to do both brakes.
Ever been in a skid in the oil-foam on a freshly wet intersection in rush hour traffic? Changed my view of ABS.
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Where rush-hour traffic goes, I do not. ;)
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Where rush-hour traffic goes, I do not. ;)
Spoken like a retired gentleman.
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Not feeling too bad about my decision to go with the Zero now. Like the fact the motor doesn't have active cooling, like the sound of the performance and like the lack of gearbox and crazy exposed wires(Empulse)! In some places I will probably leave the bike they may as well have a 'cut here' sign on them!
Regarding ABS - good discussion http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=22&m=314718 (ftp://http://forum.motorcycle-usa.com/default.aspx?f=22&m=314718)
I've never used ABS but it sounds like a good idea to me although both times I've had a dangerous 'off' have been corner/roadsurface related and reading the above I'm not sure ABS would have helped.
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i've got abs on two of my bikes and, having grown up on the dirt, i honestly feel like it's somewhere between an amusement and minor annoyance. that being said, it would seem obvious to me that it could really help if you aren't comfortable with/accustomed to your wheels sliding under you and need to panic stop on a surface with uneven and/or suboptimal traction.
i'd prefer the option to leave it off. more points of potential failure and maintenance without real advantage for me.
my honda comes without the option (dealer only had one with it). my bmw allows me to turn it off when starting the bike.
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my bmw allows me to turn it off when starting the bike.
What model of BMW? How do you do this? I'd like to turn it off if possible.
I've read about cases where BMW ABS failed in a manner which locked the wheel(s) :o
I agree with those who avoid ABS. I'm careful not to ride on potentially slick surfaces; and if I have to I take it really easy.
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02 r1150gs adventure. to disable it, you start the bike while holding down the button on top of the kill switch lever.
as for riding on slick surfaces, i can tell you that i turn off abs if i am forced to ride in the snow, which i generally avoid, but that's not always possible here in colorado, as you know...
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This same article has been printed (with different photos) in a 4-page spread, starting on page 34 of the January issue of Motorcyclist magazine, which I received today.
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What I found interesting in this article is that a list of the categories of employees at Zero was provided. You never get this information from an established motorcycle company, such as Triumph, Ducati, BMW, etc. Zero was established in 2006 and has made 3200 electric motorcycles since 2009, according to the article. This seems to have been accomplished with a relatively small number of employees.
The article says that the company has a total of 83 employees - 28 are R&D engineers, 12 are assembly line workers and the rest are managers, sales people and whatever else is needed to run a manufacturing company. I was really surprised to see that there are more than two times as many development engineers as there are assembly employees. That is the way I like to see a manufacturing company operate. Lots of people designing stuff and solving problems and many fewer people performing assembly - although that still leaves 43 managers and other people doing whatever it is that people who don't design and build stuff do. ;)
It is also interesting that Abe Askenazi, who used to be Buell Motorcycles top engineer, leads Zero's development team. The R&D team just developed the first electric motor designed specifically for motorcycle use, which was funded by a $900,000 California Energy Commission grant, and will be used in the 2013 and future models. I think this could help to stabilize the cost of future models.
Speaking of costs, the new IC motorcycle models mentioned in this magazine and others, seem to show that prices for many motorcycles are really starting to take off. As an example, the 2013 Kawasaki ZX-6 has a base price of $11,699, an increase of $1400 over the 2012 model. If you add ABS and traction control, the price goes up another $1000. Many other manufacturer models are showing similar price increases for next year. The way prices are increasing it won't be long before IC motorcycle prices start to become more comparable to EV motorcycles, as their prices drop due to increased sales and manufacturing economies.
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From http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/ (http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/firstrides/122_1301_2013_zero_s_first_ride/)
Such dramatic improvement over a short period of time has been rewarded in the marketplace: Zero has sold roughly 3200 electric motorcycles since 2009—and that’s just the start. Last year, the company boosted production to 1000 bikes annually and expects to double that volume in 2013.
Not sure how to square those numbers with the NHTSA recall numbers.
3200 bikes sold since 2009.
If they produced 1000 bikes in 2011 and 2012, then say 600 sold in 2009 and 2010.
From the NHTSA recall thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2263.0):
160 S, DS bikes produced in the first 3 months of 2010 + a bit of 2009.
196 bikes produced in 2011 (450 - 254).
254 bikes produced in the first 6 months of 2012.
315 S, DS bikes produced in the first 9 months of 2012.
Now, the NHTSA probably only covers US street bikes. So all MX and offroad-only X models are not covered. All bikes sold in Europe and Australia are not covered.
Still.. 196 US street bikes (S, DS, XU, MX-road, X-road) were produced in 2011 per NHTSA. I'm not sure I buy 804 sales of US X-offroad, MX-offroad, and all non-US.
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I had the same thought. But maybe they built a lot more bikes than they sold. ???
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I am really looking forward to my first test drive here in Denver. Glad I am waiting for the 2013 model. I thought the 2012 was zippy off the line, but this sounds even more so.
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I didn't feel the 2012 was zippy when I test rode it, but what I told a biker friend was that it was enough to feel that I could still beat cars off the stop line and the power delivery was so smooth and consistent that it took on a sort of relentless feel that was reassuring. It's good to see them finally posting numbers that you don't have to explain away - even better when they start posting superior-than-ICE numbers like the Teslas (you can find cars faster than the Teslas, but you pay a lot for that kind of ICE performance and give up quite a few compromises in the process which levels the playing field considerably).
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An extended version of the first ride report has been posted on Cycle News (http://www.cyclenews.com/articles/new-bikes/2012/11/27/first-ride-2013-zero-electric-motorcycles/). Click the coverleaf link at the bottom to see the entirety of the article, it spans multiple pages. Definitely worth a read.
Sales data:
* 2700 total bikes sold claimed
* 90% of bikes sold are S and DS models (may just refer to 2012? unclear)
* again, it claims 1000 bikes produced in 2012, with the expectation of double that number in 2013
* 85% of S / DS buyers select the largest pack
* 50% of bikes sold in the last two years are in Europe, which has pretty significant CHAdeMO rollout
Options:
* optional windscreen extends range (likely highway) by 4%
* optional smaller rear sprocket to increase top speed to 105 mph, reduce acceleration by about 10%
* "Not sure why anyone would want to fit a gearbox to an electric motorcycle" :D
* smartphone apps will be available both for iOS and for Android, report instantaneous power, precise state of charge (no more bar guessing!)
The big reveal:
Cycle News claims pouch cells are manufactured by Farasis.
Farasis has a 25 Ah 5C discharge pouch cell (http://farasis.com/productdetail.html#) .. probably Zero is using this cell. Each ZF2.8 module would then have 28 (or 27) of these modules in series (3.65V per cell, 102V nominal 25Ah = 2.55 kWh nominal). Four ZF2.8 modules for a ZF11.4 pack, yielding 102V nominal 100Ah / 10.2 kWh, with a terminating charge @ 11.4 kWh max / 100 Ah = 114V, or 4.1V per cell.
While a discharge rate of 5C would be 125A @ 102V = 12.8 kW power on the ZF2.8 bikes, it's possible that may be a sustained discharge rate and short bursts up to 8C are available, which would lead to the 20 kW rating for the smaller-battery XU / FX.
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Thanks Protomech. That was a more interesting and informative article than the one published by Motorcyclist.
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Direct coverleaf link:
http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20121127#pg31 (http://cyclenews.coverleaf.com/cyclenews/20121127#pg31)
I bet the race bikes in 2013 (surely they will continue to race TTXGP?) will use the smaller sprocket .. and probably use the 11.4 kWh pack for lower cell discharge rate.
Also:
While the removable modules in the XU / FX / MX weigh 42 pounds apiece, the fixed modules in the Zero S / DS appear to weigh 32 pounds (if the specs are correct). Assuming above is correct, 2555 Wh / 14.5 kg = 176 Wh/kg .. compare to the ZF3 module in the ZF6/ZF9 battery, which is 2628 Wh / 18.6 kg = 141 Wh/kg.
Probably these cells are significantly denser than the EIG cells.. Zero may have found a way to lighten the battery cells as well.
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interesting to see that the new is confirmed by them:
NEWS
September 2012
Farasis Energy begins delivery of the newest addition to its product line: the 28S Battery Module, offering one of the highest energy-density energy storage systems on the market.
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As I recall Farasis was mentioned somewhere by Zero in their information sent out about the recall.
Trikester