ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: protomech on December 15, 2012, 04:23:40 AM
-
Revisiting this topic again.. discussed earlier (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=1963.msg5916#msg5916).. but hopefully with some words from offthegrid : )
The stock Delta-Q QuiQ chargers for our bikes is a 1 kW unit, I believe it is the 72XX. The 72XX is listed at 72V nominal, 100V max with a max DC output of 12A.
Zero officially supports 4 of these chargers in parallel, for a combined DC output of 48A. They list a 2.0 hour 95% charge with this configuration, which seems a little odd given the 120 Ah battery rating.. but perhaps the BMS locks out the lowest discharge point.
Offthegrid uses 2x Elcon PFC2500 chargers (2x 35A) in combination with 3x Delta-Q chargers (3x 12A) for a total DC output of 106A, or slightly more than twice the 4x Delta-Q setup (approximately 0.88C). He reports this gives him a charge time of less than 1 hour. Delta-Q draws 5A @ 230V AC, 9.5A @ 120V AC, PFC2500 draws 12A @ 230V AC ..
The Elcon PFC2500 (pdf manual (http://evolveelectrics.com/PDF/Elcon/PFC2500%20Manual.pdf)) is available from a number of vendors, including Evolve Electrics (http://evolveelectrics.com/Elcon%20Chargers.html) for $665, EV Assemble (http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=23) for $540, etc. This model is marginally larger than the stock Delta-Q chargers on our bikes; offthegrid mounts his chargers one on each side behind the rider's knee.
So my questions are..
1. How are these configured on the DC output side? Is it as simple as connecting the + outputs of each charger together and then to the battery + terminal, and likewise with the - terminal?
2. How are these configured on the AC input side? Is it as simple as joining the hot, neutral, and ground wiring? How do you handle charging on either multiple 110v circuits or one 240v circuit?
3. Offthegrid, do you have a schematic for your charger configuration? Did you build any additional safety precautions in (either for yourself or the battery)? How do you connect at the Chargepoint EVSE (230V 30A and 120V 15A) .. 2x PFC2500 + 2x 72xx on 230V, then 1x 72xx on 120V?
4. Also @ offthegrid, how are you connecting the J1772 inlet? As I read it.. the fixed AC supply (EVSE) provides the J1772 pilot signal, we just need to provide a resistance between pilot and ground? Do you have anything like a custom charge controller to manage or log the charging units?
I was kind of hoping Zero would put together a more manageable 240V charging setup ..
-
Im glad to see you colonials are adopting the correct 240 Voltage. ;D
I was looking at the elcon chargers myself as one of the PFC2500 could run from a normal mains socket here. Not that i currently need to charge faster at the moment but may do in the future. Is the BMS actually involved in the charging? The DeltaQ uses a 4 pin connector so i assume the 2 inner pins are used as a control voltage from the BMS? I doubt it would actually be in circuit so could be bypassed for use with a bigger charger.
-
The Elcons are rather difficult to install. Their charge profile I had to build a custom algorithm for, even after they programmed it at the factory. The way it was sent would have damaged the batteries. Until someone has used all 4 Delta Q's, I would steer clear of any other brand charger for now. Not that many on this forum couldn't do it correctly, but the chance of failure and damaging the charging circuit or overcharging the batteries is high if you are not 100% familiar with how every part of the motorcycle is built and works together.
The side port handles only 30A wth a 10awg connection, and the back port a 30A fuse with a 12awg cable. You can upgrade the fuses to a 40A fuse, but without opening the battery box, you can't use more than 2 delta Q's from the back port and more than 3 from the side port. Each Elcon puts out the equivalent of 2.5-3 Delta Q's.
The AC input side is as simple as described above. Just parallel any charger cable to your AC input, whether it be 120v or 240v. I have quick disconnects so I can use at RV stations, Welding outlets, dryer outlets and of course J1772 stations. Some are limited by amps like 30A RV parks so the ability to use 2 separate 30A 120v connections is important.
There is another charging method I use, but I am extremely hesitant to publicly post it on a forum as the chance for a mistake is very high. But if someone has used 4 delta Q's and needs additional charging, PM me and I'll tell you how to go higher. Keep in mind Zero does not support this and it will void your warranty. But I don't expect any PM's for a while. For one I'm on the road and will need some time to explain, and 2nd I don't know of anyone else using 4 onboard chargers yet, so do that first and see how you like it.
if I get a 2013 eventually, I'll ether sell my bike as is, or sell my charging system, part or in full to anyone who wants more charging capability.
-
May be a case where a little knowledge is dangerous.
-
Knowledge is not dangerous, only ignorance, and more knowledge shared the better for all.
off the grid is a EV pioneer pushing the boundaries. Good on ya mate!
-
congrat Offthegrid for your great trip ;)
Hmm.. I have 4 deltaQ charger for the 2011 zero... i wonder what i'll do with them.... ;D... but they are big and uggly!
The delta Q are great because they are sealed.. but there is also another solution wich is those great 48V server power supply that are are much smaller.. 3 to 4x for the same power!!.. so for my 2011 i could hide two of them under the seat and 2 at the oem charger location and still have room.. :D
I think that on the LiMn cells of the 2011 and later, the limitation is more related to the max charhing C rate of the cells and the thermal management inside the battery assembly...
-
Seeing as the Sevcon can already rectify AC, as in Regen, would it be possible to throw a contactor and feed lower voltage AC from a transformer into the controller, trick it into thinking its regen and charge the battery?
When it says 25% regen what does it mean? If you span the motor at maximum rpm would you get 110A out?
-
Seeing as the Sevcon can already rectify AC, as in Regen, would it be possible to throw a contactor and feed lower voltage AC from a transformer into the controller, trick it into thinking its regen and charge the battery?
When it says 25% regen what does it mean? If you span the motor at maximum rpm would you get 110A out?
My sepex GPR-S was set for 100% regen and it seemed to produce about half the power that it consumed at similar speeds when given full throttle. But that only occurred for a short period, as you are on closed throttle just a fraction of the time, compared with being on the throttle. According to my power meter, the regen provided between 1 and 3% of the power consumed over a typical trip, depending upon how many hills I had to climb and then coast down.
-
The sevcon takes 3phase AC, and can't see a line-line voltage of more than 120V peak, and you would need to trick the sine/cosine encoder inputs. It would be a real challenge to get it to work, it would probably be easier to just get a powerful motor to spin the wheel or motor to act as a generator, or actually just make a charger yourself.
In terms of the regen, the % is % of the maximum torque (or current) the motor can produce. So the 2012 S can do 42ft lbs of torque (420 A RMS/phase) , so at 25% that is something around 10ftlbs (100A RMS/Phase). There are also battery current limits which may come into play at higher speeds where 25% torque might produce more power than the battery is supposed to handle.
-ryan
-
The recharge from motor/converter to battery is limited to 200A 50A the current from battery to motor/converter is set to 600A.
You could change the settings, but I don't know if there is a technical limit for the 200A.
I was wrong it is not enabled with our settings
Data sheet: ZF6 ZF9
Nominal electric charge 80 Amps hour 120 Amps hour
continuous charge “C†rating 0.5 1/h 0.5 1/h
but no information of peak charge!
-
Does the controller actually care about the 3 phases though? Could you just feed one phase or the same supply into all 3 phases?
I also came across OpenEVSE which seems pretty interesting. You can build what is essentially a J1772 charging station for about $200 using Arduino and some bits and pieces. If i had a clue what i was doing with embedded computing i'd have a go. Terry may be using something similar to charge from camping sites etc. through the J1772 port?
http://blog.lincomatic.com/?p=464 (http://blog.lincomatic.com/?p=464)
http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/OpenEVSE_boards?tm=6 (http://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/OpenEVSE_boards?tm=6)
-
I'm confused here. I thought that all of the charging had to go through the BMS on the bike because it was balancing individual cells, while the charging was taking place. This is how it works on my model airplane Li-poly batteries and I assumed it was similar on our bike batteries. Am I mistaken about the balancing during charging (by the bike's BMS) action? ???
Trikester
-
I have no internal information of the BMS, so it is what I guess.
The BMS will be feed through the 2 DC sockets and do all the battery manage / balancing.
I think the SevCon use a different path for the current, because 600A will not easy be lead over the BMS switches ( but only a guess ).
Charging through the SevCon (as it will do with regen) will unlikely not support the BMS management therefore the SevCon settings are trimmed to under- and over voltage protection.
[ Over voltage start cutback 101V / Over voltage limit 103V ]
[ Under voltage start cutback 58V / Under voltage limit 54V ]
I think for an "emergency" charging it could work but for a regularly charger it would need more communication with the BMS to maintain the battery proper.
The next point if you feed in the motor lines, you have to disconnect the motor or it will be propelled.
Using only one phase will never work with the SevCon, it is a 3 Phase without Neutral.
You need always a symmetric Load with such a technology.
Could you just feed one phase or the same supply into all 3 phases?
Never you need 120° between each phase.
Do you have 3 Phase grid in US? I am unsure with your electricity system.
I know you have sometimes 2 phase with 180° so you can double your voltage 240Vrms. But I never saw a 3 Phase 120° system at a private home ( please correct my I would really like to know how it is done there ).
-
Do you have 3 Phase grid in US? I am unsure with your electricity system.
Most three phase power, in the US is at commercial / industrial buildings, not residential. I have 208 VAC, three phase, to run the mill, lathe, saw, etc., at my shop but not my home. It wouldn't be available to me at my residence even if I was willing to pay big bucks for it.
Before I got my shop in an industrial area, I had three phase machinery at my home. To run those machines I built a DC to 3 phase AC (solid state) converter using a large IC designed for that purpose. I used power mosFET's to drive the AC outputs. Someone could also do that, I guess, to charge the bike battery through the regen ckts, as has been discussed here. Seems like a lot of extra work to me.
The system would have to be "fooled" into thinking the power was coming from the spinning motor without the motor being involved.
Trikester
-
It would seem that a nice upgrade would be to switch from the single DeltaQ to a single PFC2500. The PFC data sheet indicates sealing to IP46 which I assume is not sufficient to allow mounting directly to the bike. AC current draw seems limited to 12 amps RMS for both 120 and 240 volts so standard sockets should support the draw. Faster charging would be achieved by using the higher input voltage.
A charge algorithm that is proven would be nice. Is this something that can be shared?
If the charger is not sufficiently sealed, perhaps using it though the side charging port would be an option (although 36 amps through 10 gage may not be wise).
With respect to the BMS, I was under the impression that these dynamically balanced the cells during charging by bleeding current from higher voltage cell groups to bring them down to their neighbors. In addition to this function, does the BMS have the ability to shut down or terminate charging?
-
Thanks Trikester:
It wouldn't be available to me at my residence even if I was willing to pay big bucks for it.
I had a discussion with your sales-department if there would be interest for our new 3 Phase PV-Grid inverter for the US market but it seams as I thought not for home use!
Multiple charger: first I planned do use charger we produce in the company I work for, but they a bigger (size) and not in IP68. So I decided to buy 2 DeltaQ and installed each in a GIVI E21 case.
Now I can use my 2 empty GIVI for the daily use and if I do a longer trip I change to the boxes with charger. I don't have to carry all chargers every day and it works fine for me.
In the end I am happy with this decision, because it meant a lot of work; rebuilding and reprogramming your own charger for proper and save use.
Also I like to do handicrafts and to fit the charger + ventilation to the Give boxes was work enough.
At the moment I try to built and continuously adjustable regen braking using a clutch lever.
If it works I will post it.
-
The Delta-Q charger is IP66. The Elcon charger is IP46, so the same water ingress protection and weaker dust ingress protection. The charger has a fan and I assume a filter protecting it. I don't think it would be wise to mount the Elcon with the fan facing forward; side-facing as offthegrid seems to be okay.
Alternately you could fabricate a front plate cover to seal the charger while the bike is operational.
The harder thing restricting replacing the charger directly is the orientation restrictions on the Elcon. The Elcon charger is required to either be mounted horizontally with the heatsink blades / fan facing up or sideways with the heatsink blades running vertically. If mounted horizontally in the same location as the Delta-Q, the fan will likely be obstructed. Never mind that the charger is approximately 30mm taller than the Delta-Q in this orientation, and likely would require repositioning the charger pan and lowering the bike's ground clearance..
-
I just looked in my dcf Files and realized I wrote nonsense current limit for regen charging is 50A
The recharge from motor/converter to battery is limited to 200A 50A the current from battery to motor/converter is set to 600A.
-
congrat Offthegrid for your great trip ;)
Hmm.. I have 4 deltaQ charger for the 2011 zero... i wonder what i'll do with them.... ;D... but they are big and uggly!
The delta Q are great because they are sealed.. but there is also another solution wich is those great 48V server power supply that are are much smaller.. 3 to 4x for the same power!!.. so for my 2011 i could hide two of them under the seat and 2 at the oem charger location and still have room.. :D
I think that on the LiMn cells of the 2011 and later, the limitation is more related to the max charhing C rate of the cells and the thermal management inside the battery assembly...
I'm looking at the Meanwell power supply.. RSP-1000-48 (http://www.meanwell.com/search/RSP-1000/RSP-1000-spec.pdf). There's a thread on endless sphere (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36958) detailing a modification to these power supplies to limit output current for constant current charging.
The 2011 battery is 14 series.. are you talking about connecting 4 supplies in parallel? They can be trimmed down to 43V or up to 55V, 55V / 14 = 3.93 volts per cell .. would you use this then just for bulk charging with an overnight balance charge using the Delta-Q?
The 2012 battery is 18 series.. maybe we'd have to use 3 supplies and connect them in series? RSP-1000-24 can be trimmed from 20 to 26.4V, 24V x 3 = 72V, 72V / 18 = 4.0 volts per cell. We get 40A (2.88 kW) from 3 supplies where you would get 21A x 3 = 63A (3.47 kW) from 3 supplies or 21A x 4 = 84A (4.62 kW) from 4 supplies .. assuming the Meanwell PSU does not deliver lower current when you trim the voltage higher.
What happens when you hook up the power supply array to the battery? Say supply output 56V where say battery voltage is depleted down to 3.2 volts per cell = 45V? Does the battery get pulled partway up to the supply voltage and then the power supply provides constant current?
The Meanwell power supplies are not sealed.. still the power density is very appealing. 40A for 3x 1.95 kg = 5.85 kg, approximately the same as a single (environmentally sealed, officially supported) 12A Delta-Q.. packed dimensions of 295x127x123 mm (3x RSP) vs 280x246x110mm (1x QuiQ)..
Charger Vmax BattAmp 110/230V? Dimensions Weight Sealed?
Elcon PFC2500 85V 36A Y 352×195×139mm <7kg IP46
3x RSP-1000-24 79V 40A Y 295x127x123mm 5.95kg N
Delta-Q QuiQ 100V 12A Y 280x246x110mm <6kg IP66
Still.. considering the Elcon charger is (after offthegrid's profile modification) a purpose-built solution and relatively environmentally sealed.. it seems more suitable than a set of Meanwell power supplies. It's still far bulkier and harder to hide than a moduler power supply like your Meanwells, Doctorbass.
-
I just looked in my dcf Files and realized I wrote nonsense current limit for regen charging is 50A
The recharge from motor/converter to battery is limited to 200A 50A the current from battery to motor/converter is set to 600A.
Sorry if it is not of interest for anybody but I gone more in details at the moment and have to recall what I wrote.
See SevCon Manual attached.
The mentioned values are set in Object 0x4623 but you have to enable it witch Object 0x2870. Zero use Value 0x00 so the current limits are out of order only puzzling thing
"object 4623h sub index 3 must also be set to 0x0000"
it is actually 0x0028. I have no idea what the effect is but I could monitor that my bike recharge much more current to the Batteries as 50A.
-
I just looked in my dcf Files and realized I wrote nonsense current limit for regen charging is 50A
The recharge from motor/converter to battery is limited to 200A 50A the current from battery to motor/converter is set to 600A.
Sorry if it is not of interest for anybody but I gone more in details at the moment and have to recall what I wrote.
See SevCon Manual attached.
The mentioned values are set in Object 0x4623 but you have to enable it witch Object 0x2870. Zero use Value 0x00 so the current limits are out of order only puzzling thing
"object 4623h sub index 3 must also be set to 0x0000"
it is actually 0x0028. I have no idea what the effect is but I could monitor that my bike recharge much more current to the Batteries as 50A.
I am curious how you are communicating with your controller, did you write your own software and using your own CAN interface, or did you get the sevcon configuration software?
I believe the battery current is controlled more accurately with better control loops using the 0x4623 object (Local current limits) rather than the Master current limit.
-ryan
-
I use the SevCon Software and the IXXAT USB to CAN Dongle.
If I find time for it I will use a µC to display / log data especially Heatsink and Motor Temp would be something I would like to have always displayed.
-
BSDThw,
I've got the Ixxat tool which I've used in the past to do automotive ECU reflashing development work (also built reflashing dongles but then that is a different subject).
Is the SevCon software available? I was considering moving to the 6 controller on my MY12 9DS but did not like the idea of not being in the loop on programming and such. Having the software might make that whole process make more sense.
-
Sorry we drift away of the Topic.
I was always shaky if it is good to start a thread of software manipulation.
It has some risks that can end deadly on a bike. If you just mess up with one Bit in the DSP setting your wheel will block instead of free wheeling in a fault situation. ( just one scenario)
On the other side I would like to have some like-minded friends to share ideas and experience.
If there is more interest of deeper technical talk it would be good to open a new thread.
If there are more hungry for knowledge, I'm in!
-
BSTDhw,
"Also I like to do handicrafts and to fit the charger + ventilation to the Give boxes was work enough.
At the moment I try to built and continuously adjustable regen braking using a clutch lever.
If it works I will post it."
Let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I would like this as well.
-
congrat Offthegrid for your great trip ;)
Hmm.. I have 4 deltaQ charger for the 2011 zero... i wonder what i'll do with them.... ;D... but they are big and uggly!
The delta Q are great because they are sealed.. but there is also another solution wich is those great 48V server power supply that are are much smaller.. 3 to 4x for the same power!!.. so for my 2011 i could hide two of them under the seat and 2 at the oem charger location and still have room.. :D
I think that on the LiMn cells of the 2011 and later, the limitation is more related to the max charhing C rate of the cells and the thermal management inside the battery assembly...
I'm looking at the Meanwell power supply.. RSP-1000-48 (http://www.meanwell.com/search/RSP-1000/RSP-1000-spec.pdf). There's a thread on endless sphere (http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=36958) detailing a modification to these power supplies to limit output current for constant current charging.
The 2011 battery is 14 series.. are you talking about connecting 4 supplies in parallel? They can be trimmed down to 43V or up to 55V, 55V / 14 = 3.93 volts per cell .. would you use this then just for bulk charging with an overnight balance charge using the Delta-Q?
The 2012 battery is 18 series.. maybe we'd have to use 3 supplies and connect them in series? RSP-1000-24 can be trimmed from 20 to 26.4V, 24V x 3 = 72V, 72V / 18 = 4.0 volts per cell. We get 40A (2.88 kW) from 3 supplies where you would get 21A x 3 = 63A (3.47 kW) from 3 supplies or 21A x 4 = 84A (4.62 kW) from 4 supplies .. assuming the Meanwell PSU does not deliver lower current when you trim the voltage higher.
What happens when you hook up the power supply array to the battery? Say supply output 56V where say battery voltage is depleted down to 3.2 volts per cell = 45V? Does the battery get pulled partway up to the supply voltage and then the power supply provides constant current?
The Meanwell power supplies are not sealed.. still the power density is very appealing. 40A for 3x 1.95 kg = 5.85 kg, approximately the same as a single (environmentally sealed, officially supported) 12A Delta-Q.. packed dimensions of 295x127x123 mm (3x RSP) vs 280x246x110mm (1x QuiQ)..
Charger Vmax BattAmp 110/230V? Dimensions Weight Sealed?
Elcon PFC2500 85V 36A Y 352×195×139mm <7kg IP46
3x RSP-1000-24 79V 40A Y 295x127x123mm 5.95kg N
Delta-Q QuiQ 100V 12A Y 280x246x110mm <6kg IP66
Still.. considering the Elcon charger is (after offthegrid's profile modification) a purpose-built solution and relatively environmentally sealed.. it seems more suitable than a set of Meanwell power supplies. It's still far bulkier and harder to hide than a moduler power supply like your Meanwells, Doctorbass.
I am using these Meanwell PSU as charger for my ebikes since 7 years now and they wortk really great!
They are CC-CV too ( Constant voltage - Constant Current)
They are overcurrent protected to 125% of rated current ( for the RSP serie at least)
so no need for these little board for current limiting, they have internal limit.
ex: both of my RSP 1000-48 really output 1250W DC output continuous each no prob for every charge on my ebikes and my RSP-1500-48 are having an output of a true 1700W DC with a 120V 18A current ( on a 15A breaker.... that dont want to trip =) )
Thse are perfect compact charger!! and their PFC make them really efficient!
I'm using 2 rsp 1000-48 in serie plus couples of serie parallel DC-Dc with the output connected also in serie to get 125V for my 30s lipo pack on my giant ebike.
I have 4 delta Q charger here ( for the 2011 zero) but i plan on replacing them with the meanwell. With a little adj DC-DC of 5V i could raise the 56V max the DeltaQ can do to about 58V.
The single meanwell RSP 1000-48 really do 25A on output so it's 7 more amp than the delta Q and it is 2.5 time more compact!
now what is nice is that it exist alsi the model RSP 2000-48 !!! yes.. the same size of the RSP-1000 but with double the power! imagine 21.4W per cu inch !!! that's 45A at 56V !!
You charge your zero 2011 s or DS in less than 1.5 hours!!
http://www.meanwell.com/search/RSP-2000/RSP-2000-spec.pdf (http://www.meanwell.com/search/RSP-2000/RSP-2000-spec.pdf)
The RSP-2000-48 is 433$ !! cheaper than the delta Q and twice more powerfull and 2.5 times smaller...
RSP and RCP meanwell prices: http://www.trcelectronics.com/48-volt-power-supplies-high-chassis-2.shtml (http://www.trcelectronics.com/48-volt-power-supplies-high-chassis-2.shtml)
DOc
-
I have never used the MeanWell Power Supplies to recharge EVs but I have been using them for the years in ourdoor WiFi and RF communications equipment. They are the best power supplies for the $$$ for that application that I have ever used. We have sent thousands of them all over North America and deployed them in really hostile climates and they are extremely tough and resiliant to abuse. We do install them in weather tight cabinets but with no climate control from the Arctic Circle to Arizona and they take the tempsrature extremes.
MeanWell makes a great product.