ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: lolachampcar on January 04, 2013, 08:45:27 PM
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Anyone have any new info?
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Anyone have any new info?
When I was at the factory last month, I was told that the new bikes should be rolling onto the showroom floors sometime in February. At that time they were waiting for some critical parts to be delivered (however I can confirm that they had lots of new frames sitting around). Zero's production line doesn't look much like what you see in a Honda factory. Not a robot in sight. Just a few guys assembling bikes with hand and power tools. I believe they will be dribbling out the door later this month and my guess is that if you want one of the first bikes you had better visit your dealer. My experience last year is that the early bird gets the first worm that pops up out of the ground. ;D
Last year I put down a deposit on a new 9 kWh S with my dealer, Mission Motorcycles (located about 80 miles north of the factory), in December. Late January they received a DS demonstrator, followed by a 6 kWh S, and then my S model arrived in early February.
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I put in my order and deposit (Hollywood Electrics) on November 13'th, for the 2013 FX, so I hope to get one of the early units shipped. Of course that also means I may get currently unknown bugs. :o :(
Trikester
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If I were Zero I would make darn sure they get out before the Brammo Empulse arrives at dealers. Apparently, that is beginning now, but only a trickle. Lots of stories of people waiting for an Empulse, but buying a Zero because of the long wait. It may just work the other way around too, at least for some Zero models like the S.
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Hard to compare the two .. early last year there was no definite ship date, pricing, specs for the Empulse. Many doubted it would ship at all, not without some justification given the numerous delays. They were wrong, but you know ;)
The Empulse is trickling out now (3 posters on brammoforum already paid money for and own one), but Brammo's dealer network is pretty immature and is in the process of growing. By the time most people will see an Empulse at a dealer near them - especially if they were not already on the preorder list - the 2013 Zeros will be available as well. One month is not so long to wait, if someone has already made the Empulse vs Zero S decision.
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If I were Zero I would make darn sure they get out before the Brammo Empulse arrives at dealers. Apparently, that is beginning now, but only a trickle. Lots of stories of people waiting for an Empulse, but buying a Zero because of the long wait. It may just work the other way around too, at least for some Zero models like the S.
I think that any "trying to get their foot in the door while Empulses are still scarce" ship has already sailed at this point. Both are hand assembled and so both will be scarce while the initial supply fills the preorders. All of the Brammo dealers should have had their Empulse demonstrators by the middle to end of December. I am one of the highest Empulse reservation numbers in the system (that put an actual deposit down) and I should be seeing a delivery by the time that demonstrator Zeros arrive at dealers (note that that doesn't mean all ~2000 preorders will have been filled as only a fraction put down deposits, only the serious depositors will have been filled by then). By all accounts, the supply of Empulse bikes should be equal or better to the supply of 2013 Zeros at any point in time moving forward. Brammo probably had a better marketing engine leading into the deliveries which will likely translate into more deposit-paid preorders, but once bikes are available on demand I don't think Zero will be ahead of Brammo in terms of supply at any time. (Unless anyone has any insight into factory throughput for the two makers?)
One caveat to the preorders being filled is that the Brammo dealer network is scarce and so some people in parts of the country with no nearby Brammo dealer may have had trouble getting their deposits filled with a bike and may switch to Zero if the Zero has better delivery options. From what I've heard on this forum, Zero may be moving more towards a dealer model and so, with both companies shunning direct deliveries, the size of the dealer network may be a larger factor than the timing of the release schedules.
But, I agree that a race is on here and sooner would be better than later for the 2013 Zeros.
Also, has anyone actually "bought" a Zero because of giving up on an Empulse since the deliveries got real back in early December? I would think that many failed to place deposits on the Empulse while waiting for more direct info about the 2013 Zeros, but "buying a Zero" because of the wait would have been something that would have happened this summer and early fall when the choices were a 2012 Zero vs. an unknown delivery on the Empulse. Now that the Empulse is "real" I don't think any serious customers for a bike like the Empulse would give up the wait to buy a bike with the 2012 Zero specs. I do think a lot of people on the free preorder list failed to convert to depositors when they saw the 2013 Zero announcement, but they couldn't have "bought" yet - they will stay on the fence until both are available for test rides or reviews, which won't be affected much by the small shifts in timing of getting the 2013 line out.
At this point, with the Empulse actually shipping and nearly filling the preorder list, I think most of the decisions have been made (buy an Empulse, stay on the fence, or definitely buy a 2013 Zero when they are out) and unless Zero sees a shipping delay on the order of "months", few people are going to change between those camps at this point. (Though, depending on the issues around lack of Brammo dealers, such shifting may occur in markets with no reasonably close Brammo dealers. Brammo is actively working on that network, though).
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One advantage that Zero has is a wider model range. A lot of people might be more interested in a dual sport, off-road or fast urban model, than a top-of-the-line sportbike or an around-town commuter. Right now, all Brammo has is the Empulse and the Enertia Plus. So that will limit their customer market somewhat.
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Am I the only one who goes to a motorcycle shop to look at one bike and buys another instead? I think a dealer actually having the bike you can sit on and negotiate for is huge. There are some purists and e-bike aficionados like on this forum who really know their bikes and don't do that, but many regular customers do. I have 2 Zero dealers within 30 miles of me...one (AF1) is 4 miles, and I can't even locate a Brammo dealer in Texas. I would think this alone is huge. A good salesman might even show you a 2012 and point out the 2013s are due in shortly with lots more power, etc. and take your deposit then. I guess Brammo has a truck that goes around and give people a chance to ride the Empulse, but I haven't seen that. So if I did buy an Empulse and had problems, what would I do? Would they send out someone to fix it or would I have to send it to Oregon or ship it to the nearest out of state dealer? I knew exactly what to do when my Zero broke. I called AF1 and they picked it up later that day. That alone is worth a lot of money to me. Now watch AF1 start stocking Empulses too. That would make me look again.
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Am I the only one who goes to a motorcycle shop to look at one bike and buys another instead? I think a dealer actually having the bike you can sit on and negotiate for is huge. There are some purists and e-bike aficionados like on this forum who really know their bikes and don't do that, but many regular customers do. I have 2 Zero dealers within 30 miles of me...one (AF1) is 4 miles, and I can't even locate a Brammo dealer in Texas. I would think this alone is huge. A good salesman might even show you a 2012 and point out the 2013s are due in shortly with lots more power, etc. and take your deposit then. I guess Brammo has a truck that goes around and give people a chance to ride the Empulse, but I haven't seen that. So if I did buy an Empulse and had problems, what would I do? Would they send out someone to fix it or would I have to send it to Oregon or ship it to the nearest out of state dealer? I knew exactly what to do when my Zero broke. I called AF1 and they picked it up later that day. That alone is worth a lot of money to me. Now watch AF1 start stocking Empulses too. That would make me look again.
Brammo posted a link to their dealer page on Facebook and told people to watch it for new dealers. There is now a dealer in Austin, Lone Star BMW / Triumph.
Zero is still winning that battle by a wide margin. I couldn't find a count on their web site, but the "pins" on their dealer locator map look to number around 50 or so vs. the 5 dealers listed on the Brammo site...
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Thanks for that info. I bought my 2012 Triumph Street Triple r from Lone Star.
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I know dealers can cost money to run, and it actually surprises me there are that many dealers for such a small amount of e-bikes out there. Does Zero have more dealers than bikes sold? I sometimes think they spend too much effort on dealer network then they do designing and making bikes. Maybe that is why the 2013's seem to be a big step up, because they now have the dealer network thing done for the most part so they devoted more time to design on the 2013's. I wonder.
I have never been impressed with the dealers around here, so for me the dealer thing is not that big of a deal. They don't bargain on bikes, it is list price or nothing, and they tack on setup fee's. If every dealer gives me the same price then the only difference is their knowledge and service. That is not impressive either, and some places have been down right horrible. If some of you have good dealers then you are lucky.
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Zero says they have sold 2500 bikes over the company's existence (bulk of the 2500 are sold in the last 3 years). Given ~50 dealers in the US .. no doubt many of them are selling only a few bikes. But some must be pushing bikes out quite quickly.
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.. no doubt many of them are selling only a few bikes. But some must be pushing bikes out quite quickly.
Can you say, Hollywood Electrics? ;D
Trikester
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Dealers have 2012 demos for reduced prices and have the 2012s on sale now, at least the two dealers I know about. I think the demos still have a 2-year warranty on them, but I'm not certain about that. Apparently there are still a few 2011s around as well. I haven't tried to deal on a new bike, but I got a pretty good discount on my 2011 S demo last year right at this time from af1. I think I really need a dealer, not being all that handy when it comes to e-bikes.
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Hi Marshm,
I sometimes think they spend too much effort on dealer network then they do designing and making bikes
Sorry but do you have the slightest idea how much work is in this bikes?
Do you see any company that had done things like Zero?
I have to import a bike from US because your bigmouth’s only pocket subsidies and produce nothing.
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Zero having competition would explain why they felt the need to hose their existing customers on residual value. As much sense as that makes for the short term, it kills residual value and drives the cost of ownership way up. I believe that is the true opening for Bramo (or any other competition).
My question is, how does the Empulse compare to the Zero (big battery S)? Price? Performance? Weight? Complexity?
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OK, I just looked at the Empulse R web site. You've got to be kidding me. 56 mile highway range at 90 Km/Hr? You are a target at that speed. 470 lbs??? Six speed custom gearbox from a company building a couple thousand bikes????? I can trust one of these small companies to buy a controller from one guy, cells to build a pack from another and a motor from a third then put it together into something that will work. Would I trust them to design a wet clutch six speed "electric" gearbox? I do not think so....... But then, I've been wrong more than once before.
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56 mile highway range at 90 Km/Hr?
Get your glasses checked. 56 mile highway range = 90 km highway range, not 90 km/hr. The 56 mile highway range is at 70 mph.
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The IET gearbox is designed and (iirc) manufactured by SMRE, though Brammo designed the housing.
I don't think Zero "feels the need" to hose their customers on residual value. That's just the name of the game electric motorcycle land right now, with so many rapid advancements. It's possible that the Empulse may do better on resale if Brammo makes no major improvements for a couple of years, though I think Zero will quickly leave them behind if they stand still. Enertia Plus was competitive with 2012 XU IMO, but 2013 XU 5.7 seems like a better bike. Empulse and the 2013 S are pretty competitive, but I imagine in 2014 Zero will introduce a $14k model that is a substantial improvement over the existing bikes.
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Right you are. I'll look into those glasses :)
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Get your glasses checked. 56 mile highway range = 90 km highway range, not 90 km/hr. The 56 mile highway range is at 70 mph.
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Hard to compare the two .. early last year there was no definite ship date, pricing, specs for the Empulse. Many doubted it would ship at all, not without some justification given the numerous delays. They were wrong, but you know ;)
The Empulse is trickling out now (3 posters on brammoforum already paid money for and own one), but Brammo's dealer network is pretty immature and is in the process of growing. By the time most people will see an Empulse at a dealer near them - especially if they were not already on the preorder list - the 2013 Zeros will be available as well. One month is not so long to wait, if someone has already made the Empulse vs Zero S decision.
Brammo may pinch off an Empulse here and there against a rapidly shrinking back order list but they'll never catch up to the thousands of bikes Zero has shipped while Brammo was messing around on the race track and foolishly adding a gearbox to an electric motor that has an inherently smooth torque curve. In the time it took Brammo to get one bike to market two years plus after announcement Zero has lapped them with not once but twice with two major upgrades and multiple models until, as I predicted, 2013 when the Zero S came out, a bike with an equally powerful motor but lighter and thus with greater range, and decent styling to boot, oh, and cheaper, too. And a mature technology vs version 1.0. And available via 50 dealers.
The reason Brammo has 2 vs 50 dealers is Brammo aliented dealers with repeated failures to deliver, such as the Empulse until now and the Inertia+ ever.
I still say Brammo eventually goes out of business.
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I think Brammo will eventually be bought out by Polaris and the range added to the Victory line, or remain a separate model range, like Polaris has done with Indian. But then Zero might also be bought out too some day by a major motorcycle company who wants to enter the field without having to go through all of the grief of designing an electric motorcycle from scratch. (Suzuki and Triumph come to mind as companies who don't have the resources, engineers, or funds needed to tackle developing an electric motorcycle lineup.)
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I think Brammo will eventually be bought out by Polaris and the range added to the Victory line, or remain a separate model range, like Polaris has done with Indian. But then Zero might also be bought out too some day by a major motorcycle company who wants to enter the field without having to go through all of the grief of designing an electric motorcycle from scratch. (Suzuki and Triumph come to mind as companies who don't have the resources, engineers, or funds needed to tackle developing an electric motorcycle lineup.)
Maybe but only BMW has the market cap to pay a price to generate a decent return for Zero's investors. I bet Zero goes public and raises $200M.
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I think Brammo will eventually be bought out by Polaris and the range added to the Victory line, or remain a separate model range, like Polaris has done with Indian. But then Zero might also be bought out too some day by a major motorcycle company who wants to enter the field without having to go through all of the grief of designing an electric motorcycle from scratch. (Suzuki and Triumph come to mind as companies who don't have the resources, engineers, or funds needed to tackle developing an electric motorcycle lineup.)
Maybe but only BMW has the market cap to pay a price to generate a decent return for Zero's investors. I bet Zero goes public and raises $200M.
BMW never buys anyone else's technology, unless they can get it for free. They will always try to develop their own nutty ideas, even if they don't work and then keep hammering that nail into the concrete until it goes in or breaks. Or until they finally give up - like they did with their goofy turn signal switches.
I don't see Zero going public until the EV market matures, which could take a very long time. Today is not like the "Dot Com boom" days and start-ups going public is not the sure thing that it used to be. I am not putting any money on Zero going public in the foreseeable future.
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Im only a noob in such matters but im waiting for the right time to buy Tesla stock, you only have to look at how volatile their share price is to see that going public is a risky business.
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I think Brammo will eventually be bought out by Polaris and the range added to the Victory line, or remain a separate model range, like Polaris has done with Indian. But then Zero might also be bought out too some day by a major motorcycle company who wants to enter the field without having to go through all of the grief of designing an electric motorcycle from scratch. (Suzuki and Triumph come to mind as companies who don't have the resources, engineers, or funds needed to tackle developing an electric motorcycle lineup.)
Maybe but only BMW has the market cap to pay a price to generate a decent return for Zero's investors. I bet Zero goes public and raises $200M.
Oy Vey, there is nothing worse than being a small cap public company in a business with manufacturing margins! It is one thing to go public with an a super high margin tech business where growth or strategic takeouts can turn your stock into a high flier. But, take a look at some other small cap consumer product companies to see how they are treated by the public markets if there is any question of their long term viability. Check out Skullcandy. $280mm in revenue with huge growth, real profitablity and their stock has been destroyed by traders playing the small cap volitality as fundimental investors stand and watch. I would think Zero would be similar in that the "street" would have a hard time with the long term prospects of the company (not the product) in that any day one of the majors manufacturers could step into the e-bike market and crush them. Maybe Zero would get bought, but as someone else pointed out in a different post (with a positive spin), they are using other people's motors, batteries and controllers. That might make it easy for the competition to replicate Zero's sucess more easily once Zero and Brammo go through the effort to prove the market. If I were Zero's investors, I would certainly be looking for a strategic exit and not a public market based one.
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I've manufactured a product whose competition included Panasonic and Fujitsu. We did well because we were faster to respond to customer's needs and had greater flexibility to insure our customer's projects stayed on track and on budget. Had the market been any bigger it would have made it onto their, and other major manufacturer's, radar screen. We would have been crushed.
The only reason Zero has an opening is the size of the market. Once it reaches critical mass, Zero will be a memory. A day does not go buy that I am not thankful we were not trying to sell our tablet when Apple rolled out the IPad!
Obviously this is just my opinion.
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I agree. Our switchmode DC power supply company (HC Power Inc., I was the "C") did well because we stayed in the high power end of the business so the market wasn't big enough to attract the big Asian companies. We also got in on the "ground floor" of the expansion of cell sites and large internet servers in the late 90's. We built huge hotswap (never shut down) power systems (like 10,000 amps @ 48V).
BTW- Zero is now using their own motor. That's one part a competitor can't now pick up "off the shelf". 8)
Trikester
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10 kiloamps (what an awesome word) @ 48V is a lot of servers.
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BTW- Zero is now using their own motor. That's one part a competitor can't now pick up "off the shelf". 8)
Trikester
Thanks for the correction. The more they own, the more IP they can offer to a strategic buyer eventually...
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10 kiloamps (what an awesome word) @ 48V is a lot of servers.
Companies like Cisco were filling big warehouse buildings with servers. I saw an installation where emergency power would be supplied by diesel electric railroad locomotives that were fixed in place on concrete slabs. That's the kind of power we are talking about. :o
We also were selling to phone co new central offices and 27V systems to cell site installations. We sold our company before the whole internet and telecommunications bubble burst, in 2000 & 2001 ;D The last engineering project I did was to design a lower cost 4KW 48v single supply. I turned the design over to the new owner company and it never got used. :(
I got us onto the "ground floor" of MosFET based switchmode power supplies. When we started HC Power Inc the established companies were still using bipolar transistors for their power devices, because they hadn't solved a problem with MosFET's. I turned to an old technology which wasn't as space efficient and there we were, in 1984, with the highest power MosFET based power converters on the market. That gave us a chance to build market base and grow before serious competition appeared. Several years later my business partner and I agreed that we wouldn't have stood a chance if we hadn't started when we did. If we had started a few years later we would have failed. At our biggest size we employed 300 people, in Irvine CA, USA. Can you say "right place, right technology, at the right time"? Let's hope this works for Zero as well. 8)
For those who aren't familiar with the art, all of the power circuits, in our electric motorcycles, whether driving or charging, are based on MosFET's.
Trikester
BTW - I will be perfectly happy never designing another power converter switching regulator, or inverter again :) I'm having too much fun using other engineer's designs. Go Zero!!!!!
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trikester,
Similar story having bailed in 1999 and free by 2000.
Have you driven the Model S yet?
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Have you driven the Model S yet?
Yes, I rode the 2013 S back in November and that's what prompted me to order the 2013 FX the very next day. I posted under a different thread my experience. I recall saying something like; "it's a rocket". Even the long time IC bike mechanic and former racer, who's shop is next to mine, rode it and was all smiles when he returned and said he wanted one. This guy rides more varieties of motorcycles than we could even think of, since he repairs all brands and models including custom race bikes and factory specials. :o
Trikester
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Sorry..... I should have specified the Tesla Model S four door..
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Oh. No I haven't.
Trikester
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Anyone have any new info?
I got the call today that many of us have been waiting for! Ordered 2013's arriving early next week at my dealer. Get ready!
Cheers, EastSider
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I got the call today that many of us have been waiting for! Ordered 2013's arriving early next week at my dealer. Get ready!
Good, today I asked my parts guy to go ahead and order my two Kenda K270 tires and the wider (2.5") rim for the rear wheel. I need the wider rim because I'm putting a 5.1" tire on it.
Going to the desert tomorrow, maybe this will be the last ride on the 2012 DS before switching to the 2013 FX. :)
Trikester
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Anyone have any new info?
I got the call today that many of us have been waiting for! Ordered 2013's arriving early next week at my dealer. Get ready!
Cheers, EastSider
Curious where you are based?
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Anyone have any new info?
I got the call today that many of us have been waiting for! Ordered 2013's arriving early next week at my dealer. Get ready!
Cheers, EastSider
Curious where you are based?
I'm in the Eastern Sierra region, but the dealer is Hollywood Electrics. Did you order a 2013 too?
Eastsider
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I'm in the Eastern Sierra region, but the dealer is Hollywood Electrics. Did you order a 2013 too?
Eastsider
Hey Eastsider, are you in the Owens Valley? Once or twice each year I get together with some river boating friends and we spend several days boating various sections of the Owens River. I always bring my Zero DS with me to do some riding while I'm up there (I stay in Big Pine).
I'm looking forward to getting my 2013 FX (from Hollywood Electrics) now. If you are located in that area maybe we could get together for a ride next time I'm there.
Trikester
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I'm in the Eastern Sierra region, but the dealer is Hollywood Electrics. Did you order a 2013 too?
Eastsider
Hey Eastsider, are you in the Owens Valley? Once or twice each year I get together with some river boating friends and we spend several days boating various sections of the Owens River. I always bring my Zero DS with me to do some riding while I'm up there (I stay in Big Pine).
I'm looking forward to getting my 2013 FX (from Hollywood Electrics) now. If you are located in that area maybe we could get together for a ride next time I'm there.
Trikester
Hey, Trikester, you bet. I'm between Bishop and Mammoth, so keep me posted when you next get up this way.
EastSider
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Hey, Trikester, you bet. I'm between Bishop and Mammoth, so keep me posted when you next get up this way.
EastSider
Will do!
Trikester
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Word from Harlan is that the S & DS are coming off the production line now and FX in a week or two.
Jay Leno always gets his before I get mine - I just can't figure out why that is? ;)
Trikester
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Just talked with Harlan and he was unloading a batch of 2013s :)
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Just talked with Harlan and he was unloading a batch of 2013s
Way cool! ;D
Trikester
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Hey, it didn't happen unless we see pictures. ;D
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This was posted yesterday on Hollywood Electrics Facebook page. I wish it was me standing beside this DS!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150275647254963&set=a.101453059962.22679.97687554962&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150275647254963&set=a.101453059962.22679.97687554962&type=1&theater)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/528859_10150275647254963_100036183_n.jpg)
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I like! ;D
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Ok Harlan, where's my FX? ;)
Trikester
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Ok Harlan, where's my FX?
In Jay Leno's Garage ::)
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In Jay Leno's Garage
LOL!!! Good reply ;D
There may be some truth in that :'(
Trikester
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Zero Australia I want to place my order for 2013 Zero S, when will you start selling in Australia, Having a Zero Australia website teasing us but no dealers or sales is just cruel.
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Hi, do they give out prices for the bikes at all for Australia ?
just like you found the 2012s ADR info, anything yet on the 2013 ?
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No info for Australia. Just waiting for them to get bike to US customers first, then they may start thinking about the rest of the world.
Just keep filling in the dealer info page on australian website, so they dont forget us.
here is search for RVCS just use zero for make.
http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/pls/wwws/pubrvcs.Notify_Search (http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/pls/wwws/pubrvcs.Notify_Search)
surprised they havent updated the zero web page with the new 2013's , still showing 2012 models
well today they updated there website with 2013 model info, must have read my post, lol