ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: pinaz on January 11, 2013, 07:21:08 AM
-
I bought it last month new from the dealer (yes, the 2011 XUs must have been very unpopular), and it cut out on me during my commute home.
The dash remained illuminated, but the throttle ceased to influence the bike and it just coasted to a halt. I then had to hope that cars wouldn't hit me until it eventually started working again a minute or two later.
Zero support wasn't helpful. Telling me that the 2013 models have much better error reporting isn't what I call useful.
Basically, the only salient piece of information was that I have to wait for the problem to happen again and hope for a blink code on the red hazard light whilst the problem is present.
What really annoys me is that this is PRECISELY the problem OBDII was designed to solve. No proprietary tools or blink codes... just a standard interface that anyone can pull logged error codes from.
All cars sold in the USA since 1996 have had this interface... by law.
I don't know what the legal requirements are for adoption of OBDII motorcycles, but my gas motorcycle has an OBDII port (and it actually works).
Zero's OBDII is just a fake; it has the connector but they implemented their own custom interface.
I'm not happy.
-
any chance the ambient temperature was too low?
-
Has the dealer been helpful?
Can you describe the cutout situation more fully? Were you at full throttle? Did the bike reset after a few seconds or a few minutes? How many bars of charge did you have? etc...
-
You bought it new so take it back to the dealer and tell them to fix it or refund it. That is the main advantage of buying new.
-
Hi Pinaz,
I've had good luck contacting Customer Service, I would suggest you contact them again, I know for a fact the read the forum and dedicated to resolving issues.
The OBDII on the bike will not work with an off the shelve reader and it only works with propriety ZMC software. The 2011 XU has two diag ports, one off the Main bike board the other from the Battery Management System.
I've had good luck calling 888-786-9376 ext 52 or go to your local dealer who will have a Zero Diag PC and ask them to pull the MBB and BMS logs and send them to Zero.
good luck this should get you an answer.
Rossi 46
-
There was an earlier thread on 2011 glitches:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2329.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2329.0)
The XU uses a Perm motor, the other 2011 bikes all use Agni 95 motors. It seems like half the issues in the 2011 glitch thread were motor issues (Agni), half the issues were contactor issues.
Definitely worth contacting customer service. When you say "it eventually started working again a minute or two later", did the error persist across turning the bike off and then back on? Did you have to do anything to get it work, or did it just start working for no apparent reason?
-
Thanks for the responses. To address the various questions posed:
What ambient temperature is too low? Minutes before the failure, the bike was full charged in a garage (e.g. probably 60s F or warmer). Looking at the historical weather data, the temperature was 55 F at the time, which doesn't seem particularly cold.
The bike started working a few minutes after it stopped working. I was not at full throttle; I had just started from a stop sign and only reached, say, 10 MPH or so before it cut out. The charge indicator showed all bars.
The nearest dealer is a 10 hours drive away, so they will be of little help.
When I called Zero customer service they said they would email me, which seems a pretty neat trick given I hadn't given them my email address. Needless to say, I didn't get that email.
Yes, the error persisted across turning the bike off and then back on again. After a minute or two, it just started working again for no apparent reason.
Beyond the product failure itself, there is just no getting around Zero's illogical engineering decision to forgo an OBDII port. Even if they managed to not run afoul of a legal mandate, why would it make sense to engineer and distribute a proprietary scan tool to dealers? One could achieve much, if not all, of the same thing within an OBDII compliant implementation. That way, dealers (or any auto or motorcycle shop assisting the Zero owner) can use a scan tool they already have or buy one at the local auto store, and Zero could have better spent its development dollars on improving their product instead.
-
I had a similar problem when my 2012 S was new. It was fixed at the factory by replacing the throttle assembly. I gather that some of Zero's throttles had "issues".
Once the throttle was replaced, that problem never returned.
-
For anyone interested in my XU failure saga, through some testing on a side street, I've found a design fault... which perhaps might also be the cause of the problem that I reported at the start of the thread.
If, whilst operating the bike, I switch from ECO to SPORT or visa versa, it intermittently produces a 1-3 error code, which the manual indicates as a "High Throttle Disable".
If so, that label is a complete mischaracterization, as it seems to have nothing to do with the throttle, particularly high throttle.
I can make it happen whilst inching along at 1 MPH, as well as at 10 MPH, 15 MPH, 20 MPH.
Sometimes, it will clear before the bike completely coasts to a halt. Other times, the bikes roll to a stop and will not allow resumption for maybe 10 seconds or so. There also seems to be some sort of 'fully return throttle to the off position before re-enabling' logic involved in the timeout too, so perhaps that might explain the longer timeout I experienced days prior.
Before you say "just don't operate the switch", keep in mind that Zero used a really flimsy switch, and even if it wasn't so flimsy, it wouldn't surprise me that the slightest bump or pothole might cause the switch to momentarily bounce. That might explain the original event, since my hands were nowhere near the switch.
Electronics 101: de-bouncing switches
So, the MBB is likely part of the problem (since it re-interprets the throttle based on motor speed and the ECO/SPORT setting). The possible good news is that it could be part of the solution with a firmware change. Now, if only I can get them to take me seriously.
-
As this forum knows, I have a momentary switch on the handlebar of my 2012 DS with which I switch from Sport to Eco and back quite often while moving, so unless the 2011 is different, then I don't think switching on the move is the problem. However, you mention the possibility of a bad switch. When the rocker switch is in Sport mode there is no contact being made. The switch is a single pole single throw and only closes the circuit when in the Eco mode. If the problem occurs while the switch is in the Sport mode then it could not be the fault of the switch, which is open at the time.
That said, I did change my rocker switch to a waterproof toggle switch, mainly for convenience in seeing its position and reaching it while riding.
Trikester
-
I didn't know that the 2011 models had eco vs sport modes. Were they available on the XUs the year before they became available on the S/DS line?
-
Hi Pinaz,
I just called Customer Service as I needed a turn signal (low speed error from 'used to be' friend:) :P
I let them know you were struggling being so far from a dealer, they advised they couldn't give me details on other cases but they had reached out to you.
Good luck, if you work with them they should help you fix your issues.
Keep us posted.
All the Best
Rossi46
-
Hi Pinaz,
The reason OBD2 doesn't work on these, the same way it does in cars, is that the OBD2 protocol was based around fuel injection and not electric vehicles. While the connector is the same it is a completely different software interface. All the "DTC" information in a standard OBD2 tool is standardized EFI with small variances and additions allowed by individual manufacturers to meet their needs if the standard info doesn't apply. For example, an O2 sensor is an O2 sensor industry wide so the codes are all the same. However, if a manufacturer uses a different method for monitoring the oxygen content then the codes wouldn't work so they could create their own for their method.
Since the EV industry is still so new, there really isn't much standardization with the software and coding. The fact that Zero chose to use the OBD2 connector is good due to the fact that at some point there will be standards and they'll be ahead of the game. They could have easily used some other connector that carried the number of wires they needed for communications. Making it very manufacturer specific.
I hope this helps shed some light on the "OBD2" issue here.
:)Triplerider
-
For anyone interested in my XU failure saga, through some testing on a side street, I've found a design fault... which perhaps might also be the cause of the problem that I reported at the start of the thread.
If, whilst operating the bike, I switch from ECO to SPORT or visa versa, it intermittently produces a 1-3 error code, which the manual indicates as a "High Throttle Disable".
This doesn't sound unusual, or like a design fault, it's a safety feature. When switching from one performance mode to another, the throttle needs to be returned all the way to the zero position to prevent a sudden unexpected performance change the rider may not be prepared for.
-
I beg to differ, Harlan. You can switch modes with the throttle open but the mode change won't take place until the throttle is closed. Even though the mode switch has been changed, nothing happens until the throttle is rolled to the closed position.
I do this frequently with my handlebar momentary switch. When I'm riding in Sport mode, and I'm approaching a point at which I know I'm going to want regen, I actuate the switch while still on the throttle. Then as soon as I release the throttle the mode switches to Eco and I have the regenerative deceleration I want. Also, if I change modes while the throttle is closed, I have to briefly open the throttle and re-close it to make the mode change take place. I've gotten very used to doing this.
Yes, it is a safety feature but it doesn't mean you can't switch while on the throttle it just means nothing will change until you roll off the throttle. Same thing for going from Eco back to Sport. I don't think this has anything to do with the problem he is experiencing.
Harlan, I'm wondering if he is having the same problem my 2012 DS had (when it was brand new) in Eco mode, before you replaced the circuit board? Remember that?
Trikester
-
I beg to differ, Harlan. You can switch modes with the throttle open but the mode change won't take place until the throttle is closed. Even though the mode switch has been changed, nothing happens until the throttle is rolled to the closed position.
I do this frequently with my handlebar momentary switch. When I'm riding in Sport mode, and I'm approaching a point at which I know I'm going to want regen, I actuate the switch while still on the throttle. Then as soon as I release the throttle the mode switches to Eco and I have the regenerative deceleration I want. Also, if I change modes while the throttle is closed, I have to briefly open the throttle and re-close it to make the mode change take place. I've gotten very used to doing this.
Yes, it is a safety feature but it doesn't mean you can't switch while on the throttle it just means nothing will change until you roll off the throttle. Same thing for going from Eco back to Sport. I don't think this has anything to do with the problem he is experiencing.
Harlan, I'm wondering if he is having the same problem my 2012 DS had (when it was brand new) in Eco mode, before you replaced the circuit board? Remember that?
Trikester
The implementation of the Sport/Eco switch on MY11 and earlier bikes, with their DC motors and Alltrax controllers is completely different than on the new 2012 bikes. The new Sevcon controllers have the performance control integrated into the controller whereas Zero had to do some re-engineering to get it to work on earlier models.
-
Hi Pinaz,
The reason OBD2 doesn't work on these, the same way it does in cars, is that the OBD2 protocol was based around fuel injection and not electric vehicles.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point.
I'm already perfectly familiar with OBDII and wrote my own implementation years ago. Yes, there are quantities that can be measured with OBDII that don't apply to EV, but that doesn't mean throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Reading DTC error codes, for example, is not remotely EFI specific.
Zero already had a CAN bus wired up to the right pins. There is no reason why they couldn't implement just enough OBDII functionality to be useful (and legal), and then use the CAN bus for whatever else they wanted.
There is no excuse for bad design.
-
Just an update: I spoke with another individual in Zero's support structure.
Regarding the ECO/SPORT oddity I noticed...
As Harlan said, the Alltrax-based implementation for the MY11 is entirely different from the one employed on trikester's MY12.
Zero's attitude seems to be along the lines of 'of course it won't work'.
Regarding the original bike problem...
They just seem to want to send me a replacement throttle and see if I go away... I mean... if the problem goes away.
I tried to sound out why he thought this was the problem, but I couldn't get a clear answer. Perhaps it is as Richard230 suggested that some of the throttles have issues.
I also conveyed to them a warning message I saw from the MBB (listen only), but I've emailed it twice and communicated it over the phone as well, but he just sidestepped or ignored the topic each time.
Here is the message in case someone wants to chime in on what it means:
DEBUG: EepromFindNextAvailableEventLogEntrySlot Timeout
---
Edit for an addition:
Oh, the other thing I was told was that the bike logs everything down to each time the stand is raised or lowered. When I asked if this information could be used to diagnose the problem, I just got a cagey 'only authorized people are allowed to do this'.
-
The implementation of the Sport/Eco switch on MY11 and earlier bikes, with their DC motors and Alltrax controllers is completely different than on the new 2012 bikes. The new Sevcon controllers have the performance control integrated into the controller whereas Zero had to do some re-engineering to get it to work on earlier models.
Point taken, Harlan. I didn't know there was a difference in how Eco / Sport mode was implemented between 2011 and 2012. Of course I don't even have that option on my 2010 DS, so I couldn't compare.
Trikester
-
I discovered something after some investigations on my zeros 2010 and 2011
According to the wiring of the 2010 and 2011, the throttle signal wich is 0-5Kohm is not going directly to the alltrax controller throttle input. It is modified by the MBB and then the MBB send the mooded signal resistance to the controller.
I wrote some topic about that few month ago.
Now what i tried is to make a kind of bypass ;)
I installed a relay that can switch the throttle signal sent to the controller between the MBB output or the throttle output ;)
When i tried it... i was impatient to see it in bypass mode ( the no MBB effect) once i twisted the throttle the rear wheel started turning really quickly as i turn the throttle.. ( really responsive and not smooth like when the MBB is affecting it)
But when i turned the throttle too quickly, the alarm light activated and the main power relay from the battery just cut! :o
Fortunatly i know from wheer it came ;)..
It was the Motor current sensor that detected a current spike higher than ithe MBB is programmed to allow and the MBB just cut the power to the controller.
Then.. the next thing i wanted is to fake a lower amp detection from the current sensor of the motor to let the MBB to not cut the main power and allow that high current demand 8)
I have downloaded the specsheet of that current sensor and tried many things to divide that output 0-5V signal ( proportional to the motor current detected) with a resistor divider but it never worked!... I also tried to determine wich impedense the MBB is supposed to receive form that current sensor signal and to try matching it with the resistor without succes...
The last thing i wondered is if i should add a buffer or not but i dont think it could help...
Now the easy thing would be to just have the wire from the motor to have a bypass ( that allow a part of the current to not be measured by the sensor ;D to make it to see ).. in other words it could have two wires in parallel instead of one and one would not pass thru the current sensor.
I still sont tried it yet but i'm nearly sure it would work.
BUT !
after i have read few weeks later that electric cowboy, offthegris and others was able to read the MBB and some was able to reprogram it with various performances, i decided to put on hold that HARDWARE mod and to continu with the software mod wich save some weight on the bike ( no adeed wires etc).. just few bits at 1 and 0 and that's it !
Doc
-
I had another failure of the 2011 Zero XU today.
I was at a red traffic light; it turned green.
I went to turn the throttle, and nothing happened. The dash just sneered at me with a full battery indicated and 0 MPH speed.
There was no blink code.
I was in the leftmost lane of a road with six lanes total, and so the only option was to park in the median.
I turned the key on and off, but it didn't make a difference.
After a minute or so, the throttle suddenly started responding again.
-
That is exactly what happened to me randomly every few days with my 2012 Zero S when it was new. The problem was resolved with a new throttle assembly.
-
The situation with the bike just gets worse and worse.
I only got about 0.2 miles away from home this morning before the bike died again.
This time, it didn't start back up again after a few minutes. I had to push it all the way back home.
Zero support is no help; they treat me like a pest instead of a customer. I clearly document (written and verbal) the problem, and they just tune it out.
They are still saying that they will send me a throttle (just like they did last week), even though they openly admit that a throttle problem would have a blink code.
-
The problem is that often, when you show that you have a bit of skill or understand the issue, they seem to hesitate to give you the full support.
And.. a person that really have no skill and know nothing in electronic, will have great support because they know the solution only depend on their support.
i'm not necessarely talking about zero motorcycle suport, but i'm talking in general similar situation.
This happened to me alot of times and i finally understod that you better have to show that you know absolutly nothing about the problem and they will see you ONLY rely about them.
Doc
-
Pinaz,
Why not just swap the throttle out and see if that helps? Should only take a few minutes to do.
Sounds like that Is what Zero would like to try and it has been known to fix issues like this.
If nothing is changed it will not get resolved and after you have swapped the throttle it will be either fixed or you can move on to the next steps with Zeros help.
-
Why not just swap the throttle out and see if that helps? Should only take a few minutes to do.
I would if I could, but they keep on saying that they are going to send me a throttle, but then never do.
-
The problem is that often, when you show that you have a bit of skill or understand the issue, they seem to hesitate to give you the full support.
...
How sad but true. Thanks for the good advice.
-
Has your dealer stepped in to help?
-
Has your dealer stepped in to help?
Yes, I'm trying on every front. Note: the nearest dealer is something like 700 miles away.
Note this is the 2011 warranty that Zero is supposed to stand behind:
"In the event that a dealer is not in your state, province or country you can contact Zero Motorcycles Inc. directly (888)786-9376 (North America) or +31 (0) 72 5112014 (Europe) or via e-mail at support@zeromotorcycles.com. In any written or telephonic communication, please state the specific nature of and any circumstances leading to the problem."
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/support/warranty-general.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/support/warranty-general.php)
And here are two (optimistic) quotes from director of customer service Richard Kenton:
"We’re working to minimize that risk for new dealers and customers. All of our current owners and buyers are essentially E.V. advocates. We touch base with our riders for real-world feedback on usage, problems, potential changes and accessories. We are currently small and agile enough that we can really reach out to our customers and incorporate what we hear."
"We now have flat rate manuals, parts fiche and service manuals all online, in multiple languages to service our different markets."
http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-aims-lead-electric-bike-revolution (http://www.dealernews.com/dealernews/article/zero-motorcycles-aims-lead-electric-bike-revolution)
My experience definitely doesn't seem to support this.
-
Sorry to hear that. I have had an experience with them that follows their written statements. They were very responsive to a number of teething pains I had with my 2010.
-
I felt that I owed a post to update on status.
Zero is definitely showing signs of wanting to find a solution. I was impressed to actually get a phone call asking about status. I think they may be preoccupied with the MY2013 launch, but things are moving in a more positive direction than they were a week or so ago.
I'm hopeful that the intermittent problem with the bike can get resolved.
-
That is great to hear, Pinaz. Best of luck and I hope Zero comes through for you. :)
-
Keep us updated on the status. I don't know the 2011's too well but I'm hoping the throttle assembly fixes it for you. And having recently met Richard Kenton in person at Zero, I can tell you he is a great guy and very dedicated to Zero's customers. How far are you from a dealer that could pull the fault codes from the Main Bike Board? If the throttle doesn't fix it, I would definitely shoot to do that next, but I'm crossing my fingers for you and hoping that works!
-
How far are you from a dealer that could pull the fault codes from the Main Bike Board? If the throttle doesn't fix it, I would definitely shoot to do that next
I was able to get the 'fault code' information pulled, and it is not the throttle. The event time corresponds with the most recent failure. However, I'm still waiting on someone "in the know" at Zero to explain what it means. Apparently, only the MBB engineers can provide that input.
I could go into a diatribe about the need to document these things (particularly since the MBB is a "middleman" for everything on the bike), but I don't think it would accomplish much. Alas, I just have to have some faith that:
a) the customer service folks will (given enough time) get the relevant information, and
b) if I get stranded again, it won't be in a dangerous traffic situation and I won't have to push the bike all the way home again
-
I know this posting is over 4 years old but it's applicable to my situation and I'd like the archives of the internet to hear my words for other people's reference.
My 2011 XU has been acting similarly. I bought it cheap recently because the PO said it had a dead battery and wouldn't take a charge. This was entirely true, but I don't think it was because the battery was bad. You'd turn the key on and all the 12 VDC stuff would work but the battery gauge would flash with two bars, the red hazard light would randomly flash (even with the kick stand up), and the BMS would randomly beep. Nothing consistent would happen out of the whole bike other than acting weird once you turn the key on and never move. Once I got it in my garage I ripped the battery pack apart, then for SnG's I laid the pack back in the bike with BMS hooked up but hanging off the side, hooked it up and by some miracle everything was systems go! Battery showed half life, no weird flashing or beeping, and a slight roll on the throttle would creep the bike forward. Except, after a few times cycling this the hazard light started flashing weird again. No extra beeps, just flashing weird with no sequence.
Long story short, that stock BMS and MBB are crap and makes sense why Zero wanted all the older bikes off the road. When I talked to the local Zero dealer here in SD and told him I have a 2011 XU he seemed shocked one was still on the road, and working none the less. Turns out Zero's buyback incentive was aimed at getting all their bad engineering off the streets. Well, mine's on the street and gutted from all that "bad engineering".
-
That is great! I just got a 2011 XU as well and it had a "bad battery" as well reading, with zero volts but I was able to trickle charge it and get it to work. But it would only take me about 6 miles and then die. So I switched out the battery with one I made but I messed up when I hooked up the BMS. I some how didn't see that I started on the + side and put all the BMS leads back wards and fried the BMS.
So I was wondering what parts you have used for the replacement of the "bad engineering" Zero parts?
Thank you
-
That is great! I just got a 2011 XU as well and it had a "bad battery" as well reading, with zero volts but I was able to trickle charge it and get it to work. But it would only take me about 6 miles and then die. So I switched out the battery with one I made but I messed up when I hooked up the BMS. I some how didn't see that I started on the + side and put all the BMS leads back wards and fried the BMS.
So I was wondering what parts you have used for the replacement of the "bad engineering" Zero parts?
Thank you
I actually just got back from testing out a new GPS speedometer I installed. Tearing out the MBB, I lost the speedo and "fuel gauge". My fix is the GPS speedo and a volt meter on the dash. I know that 58V is full and 42V is empty.
Basically, tear out all the MBB, BMS, and controller while you're at it. That controller is shit too. Get an Alltrax SR48300. Programmable, and it bolts right into the same place. Wiring is as easy as the DIY electric bike, except for the DC-DC converter which I ran the control wire through the ignition key (along with the solenoid) so when I flip the key on the solenoid closes and 12VDC powers up.
Lemme know if you got any questions or want pics. I'd prefer to email pics as Photobucket blows.