ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: motoxo on June 28, 2013, 11:56:38 PM
-
just got off the phone with a zero rep that informed me that there is a problem with the battery packs getting water into the connectors and that it was causing the battery to seep, thereby shorting out / burning up the battery. zero is very serious about the customer's safety and was planning on driving out to do this at my house. i guess it happened to one bike and they are responding to it with a full recall.
they offered to take my battery and after fixing them they would come back and replace them (thereby leaving me without a bike.)
i suggested that i would be willing to sign a waiver (not to sue them into oblivion) if i can get to keep the bike's battery (and obviously it away from h2o) until they have a replacement battery to swap with it.
-
I've been aware of this for about a week but waiting to see how it worked out at Zero before doing anything with my batteries. I personally would definitely go for repair / replacement rather than sign an agreement to keep the batteries "as is". I could not comfortably go riding many miles into the uninhabited back country (as I often do) if I thought my batteries might have a problem in their construction. :'(
Trikester
-
Is this for the X-series modular packs or does it affect the S and DS fixed batteries as well?
-
What years, models are affected by this?
-
Zero, what models are affected and what are you advising your owners to do?
-
I don't work for Zero but as most of you would know I've been in close contact as a result of questions I've had regarding my gas trike to electric conversion on-going project. As a result I've asked some questions about the battery recall and received some answers. Everyone owning a 2013 FX or XU should be up to date on this within the next few days.
Here's what i know at this point in time:
The batteries affected by the recall are model year 2013 FX and XU only. And of those models only those made before May 21 of this year are affected.
The problem was with a sealant used in the construction of those batteries. Gaps in the sealant allowed moisture to enter the batteries and cause corrosion which then caused internal deterioration. The reason that the recall doesn't include the S and DS is because those batteries have an additional enclosure that protects them from moisture.
That is my personal understanding of the situation so I need to make it clear that this is second hand information filtered through my 78 year old brain. However, I am sure of the dates and models affected unless Zero changes that information. I repeat that at present it is MY 2013 FX & XU prior to May 21. No other models or years.
Trikester
-
yes, from what i understand it's only the bikes that have battery packs. (XU and FX styled ones that pop in and out easily.) i currently use my bike so i'd like them to get me a replacement before i give up my battery. ;)
i promise not to get it wet.
or feed it after midnight ... nah, i'll feed it after midnight ... i like to live on the wild side.
-
What is the name of your bike? Gizmo ;D
I always take care too, the one with the long nose you see at my avatar is Gisom ;) and eating is his life!
-
yes, from what i understand it's only the bikes that have battery packs. (XU and FX styled ones that pop in and out easily.) i currently use my bike so i'd like them to get me a replacement before i give up my battery. ;)
Remember that even if you own a 2013 FX or XU, if it was built after May 21 your life need not be disturbed. :)
Unfortunately for me, that is not my situation. :'(
Trikester
-
How can you tell when your bike was built. I just got my 2013 fx two weeks ago, my dealer got it from a zero rep who got it from another dealer.
-
trikester
Mine is a MY13 DX but the wife still says I'm disturbed.
-
Mine also. Oh wait that wasn't the question i was going to reply to.
How can you tell when your bike was built. I just got my 2013 fx two weeks ago, my dealer got it from a zero rep who got it from another dealer.
The bike's VIN has "when built" information contained in it. Unfortunately that doesn't say when the batteries were built, which of course is the important thing here. There may be "when built" information located somewhere on the batteries but I don't know of it. If we do have the ability to know when our batteries were built, then Zero needs to tell us how to do that.
Trikester
-
NHTSA has now published the official details of this situation. Links provided below.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM440618/RCDNN-13V257-7902.pdf (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM440618/RCDNN-13V257-7902.pdf)
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM440619/RCMN-13V257-4366.pdf (http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM440619/RCMN-13V257-4366.pdf)
Now that NHTSA has accepted our filing, our Customer Service group is working quickly to contact everyone that is affected. This group and your dealer will be the best source of information as things progress.
Regards,
aaronzeromoto
-
Call me demented, but I always enjoy reading the recall sheets.
Does this affect MX bikes as well? I see they're not listed on the recall form.
-
I called zero today because I have a 2013 fx just got a week and half ago and they said zero is sending out reps to pick up the defective batteries and take back to Cali to check out and if your battery is good they will send it back if not they get you a new one. They made it sound like they would come to your house and pick up the batteries no matter what time of year your bike was built defective or not. I wish they were more clear about this. I wish they would just send good batteries to the dealers and have you swap them out there so there's less down time.
-
That sounds like it would be less expensive for Zero too. I agree with you. It's not like your warranty period stops when you can't ride the bike. That is what would concern me....my 2-year warranty elapsing on a bike that cannot be ridden. Too bad they can't just swap out the battery at the dealer for a new one and take your old one, fix it if needed and resell it as reconditioned. That brings up another issue. Now that Tesla is swapping out batteries...well not really cause you have to get your own personal one back, but anyway, it seems like eventually they need to be able to assess a battery exactly...how much charge it holds, quality of the battery, so you would have no compunction to trade batteries...and neither would a dealer or battery exchange. You would pay more for a better battery, less for an older one, but you would know exactly the condition of the battery. Just like buying premium vs. regular gas or more vs. less gas. That's another discussion though.
-
Do not want to get anyone excited, but they should replace the battery packs, end of the story...unfortunately, that means loosing a significant amount of money, which is not an easy deal for Zero.
No need to mention the drawbacks of inter-changing fresh cells with non fresh ones...
-
I wonder if they even have replacement batteries though? Li batteries always seem to be in limited supply. The bigger question would be what to do with slightly-used batteries. If they had to just recycle the Li, that would be a huge loss. Looking forward a few years, if I still have my Zero S and there is a slightly-used battery pack that they would sell at a discount, I would be interested...just not now. The market is too small for Zero right now to pursue many options. Essentially they would be eating the old batteries plus paying for labor and replacements, so they are taking the don't-fix-it-if-it-ain't-broke approach which is all you could reasonably expect from a warranty or recall. The shelf life of Li batteries works against storing the old batteries until needed too. Still, if the batteries fail at a future date due to moisture, say after the warranty period, there is the possibility of a hit to Zero's reputation to consider as well as dealing with disgruntled Zero owners. Looks like a headache all around.
-
If they can refurbish the batteries - and I bet most of the batteries would be in perfect condition and not even need refurbishment - then they could easily sell them at a lower price.
How many ZF2.8 owners are looking for a second module? How many ZF5.7 owners would consider a backup spare battery if the price was right?
Hell, rig up some saddlebag mounts for two modules and a ZF11.4 bike would become a ZF17.0 bike .. basically the same capacity as Terry's 2012.
-
All four of my 2.8 kWh batteries were picked up and taken to Zero on Tuesday, July 2nd. Two are from my 2013 FX and two from the powertrain kit. So I know personally that they are moving ahead on this.
Since they didn't manufacture any after May 21 the recall applies to all 2013 2.8 batteries.
Trikester
-
Trikester how did they pick them up. Did they call first or did you get something in the mail. Did they make an appointment. I live in colorado so I was wanting to know when and how they did it.
-
I was away at the time. My wife called me and said a guy called and said he was on his way to pick them up and did she know where they were. She said yes and when would he get there? He was driving a van and was on his way to Santa Cruz from San Diego so I was right on his way (Orange County coast).
I think it was a matter of convenience. I'm guessing that someone at Zero said: Hey we have this guy from the San Diego dealership driving up here in a van, we should have him pick up batteries along the way. I'm pretty sure I was not his only stop. She couldn't remember his name and I don't know anybody at that dealership.
So, when do I get replacement batteries? That's anybody's guess. :-\
Trikester
-
Hope it was really a Zero Staff, if not he has now 4 sets of batteries :o
-
Hope it was really a Zero Staff, if not he has now 4 sets of batteries :o
Ah, yes, four leaking batteries. Better him than me ;D
Trikester
-
I would take a leaking battery for free ;D
BTW Zero should send me there new production bike during development ;D, so I can test it in rain :'(, what is very likely here than in CA!
-
Anyone else realize this is the second year in a row of recalls for inadequate waterproofing? You'd think they'd learn their lesson the first time but I guess not.
-
Slightly different. The 2012 recall was for a PCB that had a weatherproof coating, but it was improperly applied. The 2012 battery box is (by intention) not weather-proof, though the modules inside are.
The 2013 recall is for battery modules that are meant to be sealed.
Definitely seems like Zero would benefit from catching these problems before the bikes leave the factory.
-
The 2013 recall is for battery modules that are meant to be sealed.
Definitely seems like Zero would benefit from catching these problems before the bikes leave the factory.
The battery assembly internal to the box is built in China. That assembly uses a sealant that has to be cured and when production quantity picked up, the Chinese factory did not cure it properly and the assembly had uncured gaps that let moisture in. The batteries that Zero Eng tested, early on, were properly cured so the problem didn't show up until production quantities. The original tested prototype batteries were subjected to a lot of water tests and passed.
Quality control is always more difficult with off-shore vendors, but China pretty much has a lock on lithium battery production. :(
Trikester
-
Why not do a quick pressure test on all batteries before installing them on the bikes? Pump a few psi into the battery case and if it holds pressure, you know it's sealed properly. Just plug the hole you used to fill the case with air and you're good. Just a suggestion.
-
The outside case is not sealed except with grease which the air pressure would blow out. As I understand it, that test would have to be done in China, or here after arrival, to the actual battery itself before installing the BMS and mounting in the outer case.
Trikester
-
Why not do a quick pressure test on all batteries before installing them on the bikes? Pump a few psi into the battery case and if it holds pressure, you know it's sealed properly. Just plug the hole you used to fill the case with air and you're good. Just a suggestion.
Im sure that would be helpful but people here are forgetting that Zero are a company that needs to make a profit and labour is expensive. Any kind of production line relies on the incoming suuply to be of good quality, the problem here isn't QC at Zero because that QC should be taking place in China. Its unfair to blame Zero for the failure of their suppliers.
The chances of cells being damaged I imagine are very small if you think how many ZF2.8 packs have actually been sold? How many of those have been used regularly in the rain and of those that have, how many had the sealant weakness in just the right place to allow water in. Out of those how many allowed water in to the right place and for a long enough duration to cause corrosion? If the answer is more than half a dozen I would be very surprised.
-
Im sure that would be helpful but people here are forgetting that Zero are a company that needs to make a profit and labour is expensive. Any kind of production line relies on the incoming suuply to be of good quality, the problem here isn't QC at Zero because that QC should be taking place in China. Its unfair to blame Zero for the failure of their suppliers.
The fault does not lie with Zero, but the responsibility certainly does. How expensive is this recall? How expensive is good will lost and brand damage?
Brammo builds the Empulse batteries in the US (cells come from China).
I don't know where Tesla builds their batteries. I'd be a little surprised if Tesla did not assemble the batteries in the US.
Nissan builds US LEAF batteries in the US now, though they initially built them in Japan. Cells probably still come from Japan.
I believe GM builds the Volt batteries in Korea. LG has a plant here but I don't know if it's actually building any batteries yet.
The chances of cells being damaged I imagine are very small if you think how many ZF2.8 packs have actually been sold? How many of those have been used regularly in the rain and of those that have, how many had the sealant weakness in just the right place to allow water in. Out of those how many allowed water in to the right place and for a long enough duration to cause corrosion? If the answer is more than half a dozen I would be very surprised.
I think the recall said ~120 bikes affected. Almost all of those are ZF5.7 I bet. So probably around 200 packs.
I would guess around 1-2 dozen packs will end up affected.
-
I got a letter from zero today was dated 19th of July, it was to say sorry about the recall and that the new batteries would be delivered about late August. They are also giving away free jacket and gloves to those affected. I also wanted to know if they were finished picking up the bad batteries because I still have my original set. I live in Pueblo Colorado maybe they have not gotten to my area yet or I have good batteries. Does anyone else still have there bad batteries for the fx or any info. Zero customer service is never there when I call.
-
maybe they have not gotten to my area yet or I have good batteries.
The recall was for all of the plug-able module batteries (FX, XU, etc.) made in 2013.
Trikester
-
Experience in overseas manufacturing (especially in China) shows that you need to keep a closer eye on these suppliers (I faced myself a few issues, and some of them where not a piece of cake...)
One closer friend decided to get a couple of EU guys in the supplier plant to control quality, and it worked out (as long as they let you do it, of course)
Building in China has some advantages, but a few challenges too (like giving training to a bunch of new employees and the next day not showing up in the manufacturing plant...no kidding here)
I'm not trying to be disrespectful to the Chinese community, but this is my experience, and some other people I know.
More and more companies are getting out of China as it is not anymore "the Holy Grail"
Hope Zero learns the lesson, as it is not their fault, but it is definitely their responsibility to make sure quality is within the standards they charge us for.
-
Lipo I can testify it, my experience are 10 years ago maybe China has changed a lot,
but it was often more and expensive rework than positive effects we had.
-
I just posted in another thread (my trike e-conversion) that I was one of a lucky few who got to tour SpaceX, in Hawthorn CA, this week. It was fantastic to be able to view every part of rockets and spacecraft all being manufactured under the roof over my head. 8)
SpaceX was started by the same man who started Tesla Motors, as most people know. The Tesla building was directly behind the huge SpaceX building.
I didn't see a Zero bike in the parking lot but that doesn't mean there isn't one. I saw a lot of bicycles so I'll bet there is a Zero or two somewhere there.
Trikester
-
Why not do a quick pressure test on all batteries before installing them on the bikes? Pump a few psi into the battery case and if it holds pressure, you know it's sealed properly. Just plug the hole you used to fill the case with air and you're good. Just a suggestion.
I wouldn't be surprised if they considered this going forward. I've seen this performed in manufacturing environments many times for IP rated stuff.
-
Are there any updates on the battery recall???????? I haven't heard a word since they came and picked mine up three weeks ago.
-
Yes, I received an update today. They are on schedule to start shipping the first week in September.
If you aren't getting Richard's e-mail reports you should get hold of him.
Trikester