ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: SK on August 24, 2013, 11:51:04 PM
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Just wondering whether anyone has any thoughts on, or has done the gearing conversion on a 2013 Zero S? I weigh about 240(lbs) and I am thinking that my 2013 Zero S would be more nimble & fun if I change the front sprocket with the OEM Higher Torque Gearing Option available from Zero. The ad says that the top speed is reduced to 82-84 Mph from 95. I love riding non-highway roads and always choose them instead of highway if I am not short of time. My daily commute does not involve any highway travel. While I don't like to drive the highway on a motorcycle, I sometimes do, and my top speed has never needed to be anywhere near that top speed of 95. In fact the only time I went that fast was to verify what happens at 95 MPH. (It just pegs exactly at that speed). I think his mod would change the sustainable speed (without overheating and speed being automatically adjusted downward) to around 73.
I think it is a good trade-off to gain 38 foot pounds of torque in exchange for the loss of 12 MPH that I do not use. 8) The part is only $30 bucks but it may or may not be a lot of work to make the modification. I have not really fully evaluated all that I would need to do to change that part out.
Does anyone have any thoughts or discussion on these points?
SK
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Seems to me that your range will be a little less. That would be a deal breaker for me. I ride a lot on highways and want the range.
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Every ICE bike I have owned I have geared down as I don't ride highways so I say go for it. Its the cheapest performance increase available and easily reversible if you don't like it. I imagine the effect is even more beneficial on an ebike because you don't have the problem of changing gears more often!
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Since Zero puts the kit out, I guess it's OK and I would like to try it myself, but I can already spin the tires on takeoff...I weigh just under 140 lbs., and if I accelerate too hard in turns I can easily spin out even on dry pavement, so it might take some getting used to if you really gained all that torque. I wonder if you do? My understanding is that all 68 ft. lbs. of torque in the standard gearing is not immediately available from a stop due to the controller limiting this. If you really did have all that torque immediately it would be like a drag racing bike and might put more stress on tires, gears, drive belt, sprockets, etc. Again, if Zero is selling it though, it must be OK. First I heard of it. I would love to see someone do it and talk about the differences.
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Zero also sells a rear sprocket replacement that does just the opposite, trading in some torque for a higher top speed. :o
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Maybe this will give some more information, if you are handy it is no problem. Hope not all 2013 models have the sprocket bolt fixed like DesignerDans' bike.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3120.msg15613#msg15613 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3120.msg15613#msg15613)
dkw12002: the torque is not limited the point is [Power ~ torque * rotation]. So you will always have little power at the start and a linear raising of the power as long as you have constant torque.
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The FX uses the 25 tooth front sprocket. I would expect similar top speeds to it (70 mph sustained, 85 mph top speed) vs stock (80 mph sustained, 95 mph top speed). Sustained top speed on the S might be a couple mph higher.
My 2012 bike is "fast enough" for me.. so the taller gearing option (25 tooth front / 98 tooth rear) might be more interesting. I don't need to go 107 mph - though you can bet I'd max it out once on a "private road" - but I think it will also slightly increase highway range.
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Since Zero puts the kit out, I guess it's OK and I would like to try it myself, but I can already spin the tires on takeoff...I weigh just under 140 lbs., and if I accelerate too hard in turns I can easily spin out even on dry pavement, so it might take some getting used to if you really gained all that torque. I wonder if you do? My understanding is that all 68 ft. lbs. of torque in the standard gearing is not immediately available from a stop due to the controller limiting this. If you really did have all that torque immediately it would be like a drag racing bike and might put more stress on tires, gears, drive belt, sprockets, etc. Again, if Zero is selling it though, it must be OK. First I heard of it. I would love to see someone do it and talk about the differences.
I weight about 150 and I have the same concern as you. I have the 11.4 and the torque is WAY too much for wet pavement. I can spin the tire 100% on wet pavement by accelerating too hard. On dry pavement I could easily spin the tires on turns. However, I have not ever spun my tire on dry pavement going straight. The Zero tires are certainly a little skinnier than maybe a 650 sport bike so that would definitely contribute to traction issues. Maybe the tires are also harder rubber to give the bike less rolling resistance?
I'd sacrifice traction for less rolling resistance any day but that's just me.
I have the 25 tooth sprocket and I'm going to attempt to install it as soon as a get a blow torch.
Quick poll: blow torch or heat gun to loosen the loctite on the motor shaft bolt?
Anyway when I change it I will report the results but I can tell you now that it's a pain in the butt to take that motor out. 30 lbs sounds light on paper but when you are lifting it up with one hand and trying to reinstall the motor bolts, it can get quite aggravating.
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Dan,
Heat gun is generally a safer choice.
If wheel spin is a difficult issue for you 2013 Zero owners, I will trade you my 12 DS ... ;D
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before you go changing your sprocket, make sure you get the instructions from Zero on how to properly remove and replace it. Prying on the motor sprocket can permanently damage your motor if you do it in-correctly. If you don't have the instructions, send me a note with your e-mail address and I can hook you up.
-ryan
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And check if you insurance still covers you. In some countries it is not the case : the day you're involved in a serious accident, the insurance company expert will notice the change and you might have to pay for all the damages on your wealth...
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Dan,
Heat gun is generally a safer choice.
If wheel spin is a difficult issue for you 2013 Zero owners, I will trade you my 12 DS ... ;D
+1!! I have never heard anyone complain about having too much torque before. If you have problems with wheel spin, just don't open the throttle as far.
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before you go changing your sprocket, make sure you get the instructions from Zero on how to properly remove and replace it. Prying on the motor sprocket can permanently damage your motor if you do it in-correctly. If you don't have the instructions, send me a note with your e-mail address and I can hook you up.
-ryan
Can you post instructions on this forum so we all could see?
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And check if you insurance still covers you. In some countries it is not the case : the day you're involved in a serious accident, the insurance company expert will notice the change and you might have to pay for all the damages on your wealth...
Must be European - not an issue in the US.
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Just wondering whether anyone here has made the increase torque conversion to the 2013 Zero S yet? ::)
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Also interested in those instructions for proper sprocket removal.
I used a two-arm puller with a metal block across the end of the motor shaft to protect it. Silly that the sprocket is such a tight press fit, that's the only thing that prevented doing it with the motor in place. My chain sprocket was a tight press and required pulling but just sanding the paint off the belt cog made it a slip fit and I'll do the same to the chain sprocket next time it goes back on. It's already got a central bolt with Loctite and radial set screws, press fit is unnecessary. A tabbed french lock, cotter pin, etc. would be better but Zero doesn't seem to like the normal (correct) methods. Don't get me started on the swingarm nuts with set screws into the threads!!
I haven't done any ratio changes, just chain to belt on the FX (same ratio? didn't count, but has same top speed) so I can't comment on that aspect. The FX's suspension components are sketchy enough I'll ride the Trumpet when I want to exceed 90. I am content with the FX's torque and do cruise to work on the highway most days so I don't want to give up my 75-80mph usable top speed. I spend about 7-8 miles on the highway from 77-83mph and in the recent cool weather only break 212*F in the last mile or so.
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If wheel spin is a difficult issue for you 2013 Zero owners, I will trade you my 12 DS ... ;D
+1!! I have never heard anyone complain about having too much torque before. If you have problems with wheel spin, just don't open the throttle as far.
(Digging up an old comment because I realized I had something to say about it, not personal) Well, as a 2013 owner in a wet climate (Seattle) I will say that torque has made me fishtail in normal traffic situations quite a bit, and having that extra buffer between twist of the wrist and enough torque to lose traction means a lot, ergonomically. It's all academic because we set this in our phone apps, but I would (if I cared) go in a speed-not-torque direction.
Also, honestly, the torque makes my girlfriend uncomfortable, and I didn't even use the bike in Sport mode with her on it! (I do love opening it up in sport mode on an open stretch of road, but it is a firm handshake with mortality, let's be honest, and I want to ride in my old age.)
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gear for speed program for torque.
I wouldn't change how zero has mounted the sprocket though. There may be more to it than realized, but I'm not sure.
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If wheel spin is a difficult issue for you 2013 Zero owners, I will trade you my 12 DS ... ;D
+1!! I have never heard anyone complain about having too much torque before. If you have problems with wheel spin, just don't open the throttle as far.
(Digging up an old comment because I realized I had something to say about it, not personal) Well, as a 2013 owner in a wet climate (Seattle) I will say that torque has made me fishtail in normal traffic situations quite a bit, and having that extra buffer between twist of the wrist and enough torque to lose traction means a lot, ergonomically. It's all academic because we set this in our phone apps, but I would (if I cared) go in a speed-not-torque direction.
Also, honestly, the torque makes my girlfriend uncomfortable, and I didn't even use the bike in Sport mode with her on it! (I do love opening it up in sport mode on an open stretch of road, but it is a firm handshake with mortality, let's be honest, and I want to ride in my old age.)
Im not sure I understand the problem Brian. Have you being riding for long? The beauty of electric bikes is that you only ever get the drive that you ask for. You can crawl along from a stop at less than 1mph no problem at all. Are you certain that you aren't just losing traction generally, rather than losing traction because of acceleration?
At low speeds the acceleration of even a 2013 bike is blunt compared to an ICE with its low gearing. If the torque scares your girlfriend, don't use as much of it and accelerate gently.
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(Digging up an old comment because I realized I had something to say about it, not personal) Well, as a 2013 owner in a wet climate (Seattle) I will say that torque has made me fishtail in normal traffic situations quite a bit, and having that extra buffer between twist of the wrist and enough torque to lose traction means a lot, ergonomically. It's all academic because we set this in our phone apps, but I would (if I cared) go in a speed-not-torque direction.
Also, honestly, the torque makes my girlfriend uncomfortable, and I didn't even use the bike in Sport mode with her on it! (I do love opening it up in sport mode on an open stretch of road, but it is a firm handshake with mortality, let's be honest, and I want to ride in my old age.)
Im not sure I understand the problem Brian. Have you being riding for long? The beauty of electric bikes is that you only ever get the drive that you ask for. You can crawl along from a stop at less than 1mph no problem at all. Are you certain that you aren't just losing traction generally, rather than losing traction because of acceleration?
At low speeds the acceleration of even a 2013 bike is blunt compared to an ICE with its low gearing. If the torque scares your girlfriend, don't use as much of it and accelerate gently.
I've been riding motorcycles for 7 years now, on sport bikes, adventure bikes, and dirt bikes. The Zero DS has the highest torque to weight ratio I've dealt with.
I'll emphasize the central fact that underlies what I wrote, but I wasn't clear about it: I live in Seattle, where it rains a lot and the roads are not well maintained, and it's hilly. So I am often faced with a situation where I'm pulling from a stop, up hill in the rain on a corner with gravel on it, and if my Eco mode torque is set normally and I'm not extra careful, I will and have fishtailed. The bike is very easy to recover from this, but I don't like losing even a second of time dealing with traction if it means some idiot in a car is bearing down on me - I've been struck twice in my riding career and don't intend to provide anyone an opportunity to do it again.
I certainly know how not to use as much torque, but I still use Eco mode most of the time because I don't want a stray hand motion on the throttle to give me more torque than I want, so I dial down Eco mode. The bike is great, but we're talking about whether I want or need more torque. As a commuter, I absolutely don't. :)
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modest remark:
I used to set neutral braking to 0 when wet or slippery because this caused most of my fishtailing [on a 2012] - when start slipping you will automatically close the throttle and make things worse. (surly 2012 don't have so much acceleration torque).Zero neutral let me control easier in this situations.
To be worth a try!
I want or need more torque. As a commuter, I absolutely don't
Don't need it for sure! - but want ::) I think so! Human being
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Get some proper tyres and your fishtail problems will be over. I've had extensive test rides on 2012 and 2013 Zero S and 2013 Zero DS and am sure that the stock tyres have very, very poor wet weather performance.
In Amsterdam it rains as much as in Seattle for sure ;)
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Get some proper tyres and your fishtail problems will be over. I've had extensive test rides on 2012 and 2013 Zero S and 2013 Zero DS and am sure that the stock tyres have very, very poor wet weather performance.
In Amsterdam it rains as much as in Seattle for sure ;)
Yeah, I will be replacing them with better 90/10 rain tires when the OEM tires wear out. I will guarantee you, though, that Amsterdam is flatter and maintains its roads much better than Seattle does. Gravel on a slope in the rain adds to the difficulty.
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I stroinglt reccomend the Avon Road Rider tire. I have had a set on my 2012 for 15k miles and do both highway and canyon riding on them. they handle well in dry wet and dirty situations.