ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: Doctorbass on August 29, 2013, 06:28:45 AM
-
Hey guys.. i got some interesting numbers for you!
I took my ZF9 for a great ride and when i arrived at home i was really curious to see finally HOW FAR CAN I GO with the entire battery energy from 100% to 0% capacity until the battery cut. I did a 120km run and came back to home with two bar left ( was also flashing)
Usually at this point i try stop using it and then charge it.
I did some km around my neiborhood but i was amazed to see that after 10, the 16, then 30 and finally 32km it was still able to run!! with no bar on the gauge!
I have to say i never tought i could make 32km around my house in teh neiborhood to empt the battery!! and finally abandoned !!! with still some juice in the battery! :o
So the tested spec are obtained with zero bar left on the battery but it had still enough juice to run normally
PLEASE NOTE THAT THE WH MEASURED ARE THE TRUE Wh FROM THE BATTERY AND NOT THE CHARGED AC Wh from the outlet!
I have used the calibrated cycle analyst v3.0 for all electrical measured value.
Here is the original spec:
Rated battery capacity: 120Ah
Rated battery energy: 7900Wh
range Up to 182km
Doc Tested spec: ( see also new spec measured 4sept 2013 few reply down to that page!)
Tested battery capacity ( no Regen): 115Ah ( at 3500km age)
Tested battery capacity (with regen): 123.7Ah
Tested energy: 8221Wh ( including regen energy)
Nominal voltage (calculated) 8221Wh/123.7Ah = 66.45Volts
Tested energy (no regen): = 115Ah x 66.45 = 7641Wh
Regen Ah: 8.4Ah ( 7.2%)
Discharged voltage: 62.3Volts
Nominal Volts: 66.45Volts
Fully charged Volts: 75.0Volts
Wh/km = 8221Wh/ 152km = 54Wh per km (include used additinal regen energy)
Tested conditions: 120 of the 152km were made in speed range of 50 to 90km/h zone and last 32km were made in my neiborhood streets... yes... 32km making a square path :D
Here is the pics of the cycle anlayst:
Doc
-
Was this in Eco mode doc? Quite good range improvement from regen.
Although I have never tried it I am confident that I could do 130 miles at least over here on a charge as the average speed is so low.
-
Thanks for all the information that you share Doc.
I picked up a 2012 XU last week. I have put about 200 miles on it so far. I only got to the flashing bars
once so far, and, limped it home ( 5 miles ) at under 20 miles per hour with the two bars still flashing.
I didn't want to hurt anything, or, end up pushing it home. It showed 2.44 KW from the outlet to full
charge. Haven't installed the Cycle Analyst yet, haven't looked at where / how to connect it yet.
I am noticing about 3 miles for the first bar, and, about 5 miles per bar until I hit the flashing bars.
If I continue riding on the flashing bars, will I lose the second bar, then the first, until I have zero
bars left?
-
KrazyEd: yes, you can continue riding on the flashing bars. I don't think the flashing has any significance other than to alert the user that charge is running low; when you first hit two flashing bars you have approximately 25% of the battery left.
-
Hi Doc
Very interesting, thanks a lot for always sharing the information you gather, I really appreciate it :-)
When you say total consumption incl. regen, does that mean current/power going out of the battery summed up, without substracting regen current?
Did you already repeat your tests on Wh vs. speed? It would be very interesting how the 12S compares to the 11DS.
Thanks and have a nice day!
-
Hi Doc
Very interesting, thanks a lot for always sharing the information you gather, I really appreciate it :-)
When you say total consumption incl. regen, does that mean current/power going out of the battery summed up, without substracting regen current?
This is the total energy including energy from the battery and from the motor regen power that recharged the battery. As well the total energy would be less without regen. That is why I seperated the pure energy from the battery only and also the one form the recharged energy coming from the regen.
Did you already repeat your tests on Wh vs. speed? It would be very interesting how the 12S compares to the 11DS.
Not yet but I have to do that.. and get a day without wind to get better accurate results!
Thanks and have a nice day!
-
I should probably find an ZU area for this, but, is kind of fits in here. After several charges, my 2012 XU seemed to "open up"
yesterday, and, the range seemed to take on a whole new life. I had to drop something off, and, was concerned about range.
The first section was about 13 miles from my start point. Slight uphill grade the entire distance. When I left there, I traveled
3 miles toward home when I realized that I had forgotten something, and, had to go back. As I got closer to home, it was
clear that I would make it no problem. It almost seemed like the bars were stuck, and, not dropping like they had the first
several charges. I decided to see how far I could go. I continued until the flashing bars finally showed up at 43 miles. I was
going to shoot for 50 miles, but, chickened out. I pulled into my driveway at 48 miles. Kill A Watt showed 2.44 KW to recharge.
To be open and honest, since I was concerned about range at the beginning, I was riding at a painfully slow pace. The
entire trip was at under 30 mph. Still, it easily exceeded the published estimate for range. Now if I can only get a pair
of 2013 2.8 batteries installed.
-
Nice range, ~50 Wh/mile at the wall! The bikes are capable of some ridiculous ranges if you ride at < 30 mph.
The 2013 batteries are a higher voltage (~118V max) than the 2012 batteries (~76V max). Outside of reconfiguring the pack or installing some hefty DC to DC converters, they simply won't work with the 2012 bikes.
-
I know that the 2013 Voltage is higher, that is why I want it. The DC to DC converter shouldn't be that big of a deal,
they have them for the DIY car conversions for voltages much higher than the 108 or so volts that the Zero uses.
Possibly a little more RPM from the existing motor to allow for a little more speed. I also am aware that I would not
see any significant difference in power.
-
Thank you for detailed information,
for i intend to earn a cycle analyst too: can you show me how you conect the shunt, pictures would be fine.
Yesterday i got the experience of a nearly empty battery: at 58 V reduced Power (max. 50 km/h) and finally
at 56 V speedlimit at 20 km/h. There was no sudden shutdown, the bike got continually slowlier by WOT.
(no single bar on the display)
Tanks and a nice day
-
Now if I can only get a pair of 2013 2.8 batteries installed.
A pair of 2013 batteries at $5000 + cost of bike + cost of frame modification + controller reprogramming + DC-DC + misc components would easily exceed the price of a 2013 Zero XU which will perform better and more reliably out of the box than anything you possibly do to the 2012 XU.
-
Ok guys, I have some new data for you.
NEW TEST From FULL TO EMPTY
These are data from a completly empty battery ( speed limited to 20km/h at end of Battery capacity) and battery voltage under 58V
Doc Tested spec:
Tested battery capacity ( no Regen): 122.7Ah ( at 5046km age)
Tested battery capacity (Including regen amp): 127.4Ah
Tested energy: 8276Wh ( including regen energy)
Nominal voltage (calculated) 8276Wh/127.4Ah = 65Volts
Tested energy (no regen): = 122.7Ah x 65 = 7975Wh
Regen Ah: 4.7Ah (3.8 %)
Discharged voltage: Volts 59.5V
Nominal Volts: 65Volts
Fully charged Volts: 75.0Volts
Wh/km = 8276Wh/ 109.4km = 75.64Wh per km (include used additinal regen energy)
Trip was made of about 50km of highway at 65Mph
What impress me is that at this state the pack that is at 3.30V per cells is still balanced at 25mV diff from the high to the low cell !!! damn!! Luke you did an amazing job on that 2012 design!!!!
So i got a true 122.7Ah out of the 120 rated Ah
and a real 7975Wh out of the rated 7.9kWh
:) :) :)
Doc
-
Very nice Doc!
-
A pair of 2013 batteries at $5000 + cost of bike + cost of frame modification + controller reprogramming + DC-DC + misc components would easily exceed the price of a 2013 Zero XU which will perform better and more reliably out of the box than anything you possibly do to the 2012 XU.
[/quote]
I was trying to buy the FX that they have listed, but, they won't even talk to me about it until they get the new batteries.
I got a good deal on the XU, that should scratch an itch for a while. probably not going to do anything right away.
I would like to gear it a little taller if the 28 tooth engine sprocket will fit. I know that this will slow the acceleration, but,
would hopefully allow me to feel a little more comfortable with freeway speeds. Only about 12 miles that I normally travel, but,
it is pretty much level, so, shouldn't be too bad.
I have seen that the Size 4 controller can be used on the 2013 XU. Would this be a possibility on the 2012 as well?
Cheaper than the two 2013 batteries, I would only have to get one more 2012 battery, and, figure out how to
add it to the bike.
Also, if I were to purchase the batteries, I might be able to swing the 30% tax credit for charging, as opposed to 10%
tax credit for purchase of motorcycle. Would have to research that if I got serious.
I just wish I could find out more technical information on the 2012 than I see floating around the usual channels.
I trust that a Service manual is available for sale to owners?
-
Thanks for all the data! On the Ride the Future Tour, I regularly would ride about 5-10 miles after all the bars were gone, so don't worry about damaging the batteries with blinking bars. Those are just to alert you that you are low on charge. You might choose to ride slower to extend your range, though.
Also, on my 105 mile ride, the last bar disappeared at 85 miles, so I squeezed 20 miles out after all the battery bars were gone at about 25mph.
On my 114 mile ride, I got about 17 miles after all the battery bars were gone. That time there was more uphill at about 25mph. Both of these rides were range tests, so I took it easy.
While riding cross country, the plan was to arrive with zero bars most days to get to the destination fastest, but occasionally I needed to keep going after all the battery bars disappeared. I could count on 8mi/bar at 45mph which I rounded to 90miles.
-
benswing, your data are very interesting too. According to my Wh/km tests and graph I made with my 2011 DS on street tire, your consumption was about 57Wh/km at 45mph. You said you did 90miles ( 144km) wich would correspond to about 8.0kWh energy and this correspond very closely to the measured battery max energy!!
now for your 114 miles ( 182km)
here is what I calculated:
8.0kWh/182km = 43Wh/km
At that efficiency, your speed should have been about 53km/h . Is it the speed average you had?
(http://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=108978)
Doc
-
doctorbass, that sounds about right. Unfortunately I didn't track the 114 mile trip as well as my 105 mile trip, but I definitely spent quite a bit of time at slower speeds and 53km/hr (33mi/hr) seems accurate to me.
There is even more detailed description of my 105 mile ride at http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077745_can-a-2012-zero-s-electric-motorcycle-really-cover-100-miles (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1077745_can-a-2012-zero-s-electric-motorcycle-really-cover-100-miles). (The more interesting data is near the end.) I used the Cyclemeter app on my iPhone to gather this data.
Am looking into getting a cycle analyst to gather more data. I love data! :D
-
This is really interesting to have also a video to show a real test range for the 142 miles!
What is relaly helping with the cycle analyst is that instead of counting just the Ah, it also count the Wh wich is more accurate since the Wh also take account of the voltage decrease for wach Ah as the battery dishcharge. in fact the first Ah spend on a full battery worth more energy than the last Ah. The first Ah worth about 75Wh ( 75V x 1Ah) and the last Ah worth 56Wh (56V x 1Ah).. so planning a trip so that you plan to count the Ah and return at half distance by taking account of the Ah is wrong. the first half of 120 to 60Ah give more energy than the 60 to 0Ah from the battery so if you travel and decide to return to your home when you get 60Ah left, you will not have enough energy to return... but knowing that the battery have 8000Wh total usable, if you return when your battery is at 4000Wh. At 50% battery energy, it is at 4000Wh left , the Ah is not at 50% but maybe 60% left.
The cycle Anlayst is a very nice tool to install on the Zero. it also calculate the Wh/km live.
Doc
-
That's freaking awesome doc!
You know what I find interesting is that the curve isn't even really that steep at 100km/h. I'm interested to see what happens >100km/h. I believe this really starts to trend upward quickly!
Thanks for the graph though doc, I'll be referencing this for sure!