ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: ZeroLover on November 30, 2013, 02:48:05 PM
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Hi ! Although we all love these bikes when they work, and minor issues seem to be managed quite ok, some of us had catastrophic customer experiences with some models. After months of struggling with Zero, some of us end up with choosing between legal action (straighforward, and garanteed especially for defects known by Zero), or giving the bike away at scrap value.
The purpose of this topic is :
- to make sure these issues are known, and give our poor fellows more chances of ending their pain
- to ensure Zero allows more ressources to solve complex customer issues - if Zero know people will make it known/sue/be an issue whenever they're stuck with bikes with defects, they'll probably make sure things are solved correctly
- to share ideas regarding actions
This post come after exchanging several mails with Zero Customer service regarding issues encountered by users - with no result as of today.
I really hope some day we can delete this topic. But today it is still highly needed !
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As of today, here is a first list of users with serious & unsolved cases. Please add yours if any !
If a US lawyer ready to work for a % of torts reads this forum, you're welcomed !
**Jacob
Hello I am a 2011 DS zero owner in Vancouver Canada.
I received a recall notice that said the parts would be in the dealer by mid August.
I am still waiting...
My impression is that it is an incompetent zoo in their parts dept. have several bad experiences with Zero parts.
**Trevor
My 2011 Zero XU worked great for a year (bought new in Sept 2012), almost 4,000 mile commuting to work. Then it started intermittently shutting down (presumably throttle disable due to error). It happened mostly on startup but a couple times while riding.
Here's where it gets pathetic. The bike was still under warranty and I took it back to the dealer. They seemed to have no electronic diagnostic ability whatsoever, at least for this model. It took over a week for them to see the error occur and when it happened they were unprepared to diagnose the problem, so they had to send to Zero for instructions. They could not (or would not put in the effort) to reproduce the problem. So my bike sat in their shop for over a month. Finally after some tense conversations with them they managed to reproduce the error and now apparently had learned from Zero that the motor controller had to be replaced. Then they said it would take a week to get the part from Zero. The dealer complained that Zero was difficult to work with - slow to respond to help requests and slow to deliver parts.
So, over a month in the shop with no offer of a loaner bike or rental car. Both the dealer and Zero are to blame here, but mostly Zero for not paying as much attention to service, and their reputation, as they should.
I don't think Zero knows how badly they've screwed up. Literally dozens of people who thought my bike was really cool have noticed I'm not riding it. Way to go Zero.
My advice to Zero: Don't call yourself Zero unless you intend to be excellent. Your brand can very quickly become a joke.
**Tim
"I just got an update as well on 2012 DS(2700 miles)due to the "glitch." It was perfect for about a week and then got progressively worse over this second week. Possibly correlated to ambient temp. 1. this week has been warming up. 2. bike has sat in the sun after the worst problem I've had. That worst problem being starting off for my ride home at the end of the day. It will move backwards or hardly move when i roll the throttle. I have recently noticed I can "break through" if i manually roll the bike forward and roll the throttle somewhat hard. Seems a little dangerous. Im not sure if i could have done that before the update. As of now the only difference is i dont have to restart with the key when it cuts off."
10/13/2013
" I am not giving up on Zero. Despite my dealership that is playing catch-up, they and especially the eastern zero tech have been responsive. I am still riding and just dealing with it until I hear back about the next course of action. Trying to be patient and trusting.
Some other notes of interest:
My zero was a demo so may have been a somewhat earlier build (Edit: #123, I assume it is consecutive out of the factory?)
the update, done sometime in early September, did negate the need to restart with the key while moving. It does seem that it will cut off at higher speeds now"
** Bryan
I currently have my Zero S in the shop and I have been having lackluster service. The problem is I am losing throttle while going down the road, not very fun, and from what I have read a lot of other people have this same issue. First the technician told me that it is probably the contactor because that was the error code I was getting. He told me to open the battery pack myself, not something our owner’s manual suggests to do. He retracted that statement two days later and told me to take it to my local dealer. After one week of having it at the dealer thaey said they could not get the bike to produce the same problem. The dealer said that the ZERO rep told them if they were to change anything it would be the controller. I was not too happy with that because it is a 800 dollar part and I am out of warranty. They said there was nothing else they could do.
I called Zero directly and asked if they had any history on the problem I am having and a new guy told me that it is more than likely the MBB. I told this to the dealer and now they are trying to get a hold of the same guy at Zero I talked to so everyone is on the same page, but I still have not heard back.
It has now been two and a half weeks since I took the bike to the dealership, and 4 weeks since I started dealing with Zero on this problem.
** Vincent
Hi !
I really love Zero bikes, but I had a very unpleasant experience with the XU 2012 I bought. A few months afetr purchase, the "glitch" appeared to the point that the bike began stopping while driving in the traffic. Then I gave it back to the dealership. They kindly offered me a replacement with a 2013 XU (after 3+ months) and both dealer & importer were very nice, but since I need a bike that can be driven with a 125 cc licence (i wanted to give the XU to my mother, and the Learning school refused her, so she needs a bike you can drive with a 125cc permit), which is not the case of the 2013 XU, i'm still waiting for a solution. In the meantime I bought a 2013 S, which look to have a new bug when turning the key on - for which i'm still waiting for a solution from my dealer.
I'm ok to have issues with a new bike, but considered the price I paid (20 k$) i'd really expect quick & reassuring solutions : now i'v put 32.000 $ in two zero bikes and one is broken and no mire in my possession since 6 months, and the other has a new bug for which no excuse or solution has been proposed so far ! And when you see how depressed is the second hand market (basically, second hand price is zero because nobody buys a used Zero), I think Zero's plan should allocate more resources to fix issues and ensure first clients keep the "e-rider" smile on their face !
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My first-month production 2012 Zero has been a lot more reliable than either of my current BMW motorcycles during the past 7500 miles. It has never left me stranded and the only glitch that I have had is an occasional morning throttle failure that requires an additional boot-up. I have had a turn signal relay fail, which was immediately replaced by my dealer with a part off of a bike on the showroom floor. The "glitch" fix re-programming and a throttle modification was performed at the factory and they picked up my bike at my home and returned it to me fixed both times within a few days. The stop light recall was performed by my dealer in an hour and the caliper bolts recall were also fixed by my dealer, but it took them a couple of weeks to discover that the replacement bolts that they said Zero hadn't sent were actually on a shelf in their repair shop and had never been entered into their parts computer.
I think that many of the customer relation issues that people have had were with their retail dealers who are not experienced with the brand or technology. Perhaps Zero needs to improve their dealer training, service education and customer service followup at the dealer level. So far, my Zero has been a lot more reliable than any of the 7 BMW motorcycles that I have owned during the past 25 years. However, I will admit that BMW dealers all provide excellent customer service and most provide loaners if your bike needs servicing.
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Hi Richard !
Probably, some of the bikes are reliable and minor issues are managed ok. The issue is that when things go really wrong, customers are left alone and no process seems available at Zero to ensure radical solutions (cash back, quick exchange with a new bike,...).
The issue is : is buying a Zero is like a reverse lottery which can end up with a 5 % chance of having 20 k$ lost for something you wont be able to resell. It is a real issue, which should be addressed by Zero. Hence the whole user communauty should support effort to ensure these "catastrophic cases" are not left with a fair, quick & reassuring answer !
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Hi Richard !
Probably, some of the bike are reliable. The issue is that when is goes wrong, customers are left alone and no process seems available at Zero to ensure radical solutions (cash back, quick exchange with a new bike,...) when it goes horrbly wrong.
The issue is : is buying a Zero is like a reverse lottery which can end up with 20 k$ lost for something you wont be able to resell, it is a real issue. Hence the whole user communauty should support effort to ensure these "catastrophic cases" are not left with a fair, quick & reassuring answer !
ZeroLover,
Richard speaks to this exact point by offering suggestions on how the situation can be improved. But the tone of your note is implying you are demanding a lawsuit for the customers you are quoting and not at all interested in positive feedback. The situation you are describing (purchase of completely faulty vehicle) falls under the Lemon Law -- which exists at the government level. Dissatisfied and mistreated customers should invoke it. But a lot the issues for dissatisfied customers like what you described falls under the dealership's responsibility.
I imagine that if Zero sells directly to customers like Tesla does, the resolution you seek (refunds, replacements, loaners, etc.) would fall squarely on Zero's shoulders instead of the dealership. Unfortunately, I don't think the dealerships read these forums. :( So I'm not sure how you mean to achieve your goal here.
If ever I have a problem with my iPhone, I can take it back to the Apple Store and get it looked at. It is not uncommon for the device to get replaced entirely if any number of software or hardware issues come up, and I can walk away happy. It would be awesome if Zero can be in the same situation as Apple.
+m
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Mehve,
All the users concerned by the cases I mentioned spent times and times talking to their dealers. Unfortunately, dealers have no possibility to fix boards, batteries or even do simple fixes on the bike. And Zero look very inflexible/rigid in the way they allow them to provide solutions that really work. In at least two cases, it is the dealers themselves, worried that Zero did not react, that suggested lawsuits so that Zero-level defects (which often imply replacement of the bike or significant parts of it) are fixed.
You mentioned Apple : they understood that if you build something that can be serviced, then you need a "few questions asked replacement policy". I'm happy that your zero is not one that does not work or that randomly stops while in the traffic (XU model had LOTS of serious issues). But many did, and the fact that they are not treated well is an issue everybody should be concerned with - you'll never have a second hand market for these bikes if major issues means that you have to throw the bike... Also, it seems that people living close to the factory are much better treated than others : probably Zero should pay extra attention to remote clients... Or stop selling abroad !
And yes, Richard's propositions seem fair to improve Zero's service in the long term. But my concern is more helping the poor quys now stuck with broken bikes, no solution for months and 10-20.000 less on their account. Nothing can explain this situation ! You're right we should not be talking about lawsuits. But unfortunately it seems that there is no way to go from talks to real world solutions...
V
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I had stunningly good customer service when my Zero S glitched.
The day after it happened the rep personally drove out and re-calibrated the bike.
After a couple more glitches he determined that it was the motor, and started the process of getting a new one sent out.
During this period he lent me a cable so I could keep the motor calibrated myself.
When it came time to take the bike away for repair I was lent a 2013 DS to ride while mine was in the shop.
Long story short. Zero have the best customer service I've encountered in 24 years of motorcycling.
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I don't see a lot of response here so it is always hard at a forum to find out if there is a collection of some people with a problem and hundreds are fine or vice versa.
Being in Europe I can't see Zero “don't react to issuesâ€! All problems I had have been resolved. It even looks like the European Center has a good stock of spare parts. (2012+ I don't know how it is with bikes before) I know that 2012 a service guy has visited the dealers to repair there bikes where they can't do it or train them. When I spoke to my dealer two weeks ago he told me he saw the 2014 bikes when they had a training. So I believe Zero tries to have a good service.
The main problem I see there are little dealer making a “full†business with Zero bikes (like eq Harlan). If I see the 2013 bikes have arrived when session was over what costumer like to buy. So it will be a secondary business and they can't spend 100% of work for it.
Asking Zero direct per e-Mail I had different experience. Some questions has been answered soon others I never good a response.
The Dealership will be a very local situation – I am happy with my dealer (they are experts in electronic) but I believe if it is a traditional motorcycle dealer he may has more problems.
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I looks like:
- minor issues (changing a part, solving a minor glitch) are ok
- major issues (implying moving the bike, or replacing it) are not managed
- some US customers had very bad experiences, as well as European one (3 months without any news, then some bogus discussions
So there is still a worrying issue : if you're not lucky and happen to be in a place, or with an serious issue, you might end up with a new bike you bought a few month ago, nobody answering and no solution. I gave Zero the mails of all the person concerned by these serious issues, and absolutely nothing happened.
This is simply not acceptable. I understand some had better experiences for minor issue - great for them. But it does not change the situation for the one that were unlucky. You can solve the most common and minor issue, and let some of your customers - if it is 5 % - with no answer and no solution.
And this is why many customer wont buy from this company unless - as we all expect - they radically and quickly change the way they manage major issues.
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I think what ZeroLover is describing is true of just about every auto and motorcycle manufacturer to one extent or another. Some are better than others, but some of the owners of all motor vehicles for the past 110 years have had major issues and poor resolutions to their mechanical problems. No brand is completely exempt from this issue. I guess it depends upon the percentage of these problems and how they are resolved that can define the company and I have no idea how that can be determined, especially over a short period of time.
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I had and still have an awfull experience with an Xu
It was stopping unexpectingly in the traffic - imagine how dangerous it can be
I brought it back to dealership in june. No news for 3 months. They proposed me an exhange with a 2013 bike - but unfortunately i cant use it because a licence is needed.
After 6 months, i still have no solution. The bike worked for 3 months only.
So even if minor issues were well managed (some small fixes needed in the first weeks), i confirm that severe issues are not managed - probably because managing them is more expensive than reprpgramming a board.
I am now in a situation where suing for a refund - easy and sure because the case is crystal clear - appear the only solution. I am happy for the guys that only encountered minor issues, and would love being in your position
..
I know at least two other users who scrapped their bike for similar reasons. They're back to ice and probably dont come here anymore...
.
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Agree !
My purpose is not trying to figure if zero is better or worst, but to help fellows having their cases solved !
My feeling, though, is that since it is a new market (meaning - new risks, no second hand market, few shops able to service), they should pay more attention to this so that new buyer can be sure that if it goes bad, they're not left alone. Unfortunately, it is not the case today !
I had issues with ICE bikes, but I had much more available options (finding parts, selling the bike, finding a new dealer...)
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They proposed me an exhange with a 2013 bike - but unfortunately i cant use it because a licence is needed.
So get a license! Good grief, if this doesn't qualify as a solution, I don't know what does.
While I really feel for the people who have had issues and had no or an unsat resolution, I also feel for the dealers who have taken on this new technology and have to deal with customers for whom a new bike isn't enough.
The iPhone analogy is really funny. I went through three iPhones and I don't know how many hours of phone time with Apple pointing the finger at AT&T and them pointing the finger back. Eventually Apple fessed up to an endemic hardware issue and gave me a 4th phone. When it went TU I went to android and have been happy since.
Anyone who buys a Zero should understand that they are, for all practical purposes, first adopters, with all the implicit risk that entails. A lot of people won't buy a new model year of 'x' vehicle. This is new technology, not just a new model year.
Has Zero been remiss in responding to some issues? Without a doubt. I hope that improves.
Meanwhile - if anyone has an issue with their Zero in New England and I can help - get in touch. I live in the seacoast area of NH and have a couple of trucks and will drive within reason for gas money alone. The local dealer (only one east of NJ) is only 15 minutes away.
That said, everyone on this board should be a member of the AMA and they have towing coverage.
Also, I don't believe that most states lemon laws apply to bikes.
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Sure managing Zero or being a dealer is not easy. But I think life and business should be built around principles : your deliver what you promise, you do not sell a broken product and if your product is faulty, you make your best efforts to fix it or you get significant penalties !
I've seen nowhere in Zero's advertising that their bikes are only for an elite ready to fix their bike themselves, or pay problems out of the pocket. To the contrary, I read "hassle free" "no service needed" "high quality". Promising the impossible then explaining that you can't deliver is just not an acceptable way of doing business...
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ZeroLover; are you pursuing a case action here? I notice in your other topic you say 'please contact us'. Is 'us' a firm?
Maybe there is a divide between US and EU experience here but I have been very impressed with the level of service I have received. Admittedly parts do seem to take a long time, if it comes from Holland usually about a week but when my bike arrived with a damaged swinging arm, they had to send a new one from the US and that took a month (which isn't unusual). Given that my dealer is an engineering firm and could have fixed it themselves I was quite impressed that Zero sent a new and expensive part to make sure it was perfect.
From what I hear from my dealer there are some difficulties with things taking longer than they should when dealing with Zero but I hear exactly the same thing from a friend who works in a multi-franchise dealership working with Suzuki, Ducati, KTM and HD etc. The only experience i've had with parts where they came down in less than a week was Honda. The difference with the Zero is that I've had it for over a year now and so far I have never had to make alternative arrangements to get to work in the morning, or had to get a tow to the dealer. I have had issues like funny noises where I have been able to confidently ride into the dealer and jump on a loaner whilst it is fixed. This hasn't been the case with any other of the 6 bikes I have owned.
I used to wake up in the morning and if it was cold I would go out to the bike literally praying that the thing would start. I don't with the zero so as far as I'm concerned they are reliable except for small issues which is exactly what you should expect on something cutting edge. I could spend all day telling you stories about poor service from ICE dealers.
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I looks like:
- minor issues (changing a part, solving a minor glitch) are ok
- major issues (implying moving the bike, or replacing it) are not managed
- some US customers had very bad experiences, as well as European one (3 months without any news, then some bogus discussions)
FYI, I had a major issue when I first bought my bike and Zero took care of it. It took them some time to fix the issue, but they resolved it within a reasonable amount of time. I actually expected more challenges since this is such a new industry and there is no knowledge base out there for new dealers. They have to learn on the fly and Zero is a company that is growing fast, which is difficult to manage. Not to make excuses for them, but some of the statements on this thread imply that they are universally bad at dealing with major issues, and they have a good track record with some or most riders.
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Sure managing Zero or being a dealer is not easy. But I think life and business should be built around principles : your deliver what you promise, you do not sell a broken product and if your product is faulty, you make your best efforts to fix it or you get significant penalties !
I've seen nowhere in Zero's advertising that their bikes are only for an elite ready to fix their bike themselves, or pay problems out of the pocket. To the contrary, I read "hassle free" "no service needed" "high quality". Promising the impossible then explaining that you can't deliver is just not an acceptable way of doing business...
Maybe it's just frame of reference.
I've been riding English motorcycles for 41 years, my frame of reference may be quite different from yours.
Maybe it's just the vocal minority.
These guys seem pretty happy with the service after problems arose ... http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2806.msg16558#new (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2806.msg16558#new)
These things are high tech vehicles on the cutting edge. Anyone who takes from the Zero ads anything else, is deluded.
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I rode a 12 DS 6500 miles this season and it's charger failed. Zero and the local dealer replaced it under warranty at no cost to me in less than a week.
That was the only problem that I had with the bike.
It was a better ownership experience than I have had from a couple of other more mainstream motorcycle brands and it exceeded my expectations in terms of reliability and dependability.
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In early October 2013, I bought a Zero FX. - 2.8 - Demo.
I quickly realized I would like to have more "range."
So I bought another battery and a "quick charger."
Now it's a 5.7
I found out the battery the bike came with was faulty.
I waited a couple weeks to get a replacement.
Then, I found out the battery I had, will not take a charge under 36 degrees. Great excuse to bring it indoors for charging. :)
My kickstand is bent, to where the bike leans way sideways. It's covered under warranty, I'm waiting on that.
All said.
The bike is one cool gadget.
I ride it like I stole it - and plan to modify it - to charge on the fly - with a snow mobile alternator, or something along that line.
I realize this company is having issues. But HIGH FIVE to them for getting the ball rolling in the right direction.
I'm patient and I like the Zero electric dirt bike!
I'll keep y'all updated on my experience. But for now, its all smiles for now!
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Noiseboy : the goal is to have these unacceptable issues solved quickly, by any possible means :
- Level 1 is talking to dealers - we did this, no results.
- Level 2 is sending messages to Zero - same, no results. Level 3 is seeking external help - consumer association, govt homologation authorities, specialized press so that they have the full information (ongoing) and now about critical issues. Fortunately some of the clients concerned have very good connections
- Level 4 is court (probably the easiest & more direct way).
But totally agree that levels 1+2 should have solved the case, and Zero should be aware that for an innovative bike with a very reduced service network, they should never let customer alone with their issues for months. Which is exactly what they do for now ! Serving customer is not about helping on minor issues and ignoring unlucky customer with complex cases (which happen on a marker with no service network, no secondhand market).
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Level 3 is seeking external help - consumer association, govt homologation authorities, specialized press so that they have the full information (ongoing) and now about critical issues. Fortunately some of the clients concerned have very good connections
1. Which consumer association?
2. Government homologation authorities? What are those and how would they help?
3. Clients? Clients of whom?
- Level 4 is court (probably the easiest & more direct way).
4. If you think court is "direct" or "easy" then I can only assume that you have never been to court
I am beginning to find this thread objectionable. The title of the thread is inflammatory and as yet, I haven't read anything that you've posted that is anything less than a veiled threat. If you want to use the forum to actually help owners in trouble, to collate problems, to communicate with Zero, then I say more power to you. If your intent is just to vent, then have at it, but don't do so in the guise of being a consumer advocate.
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I think that many of the customer relation issues that people have had were with their retail dealers who are not experienced with the brand or technology. Perhaps Zero needs to improve their dealer training, service education and customer service followup at the dealer level. So far, my Zero has been a lot more reliable than any of the 7 BMW motorcycles that I have owned during the past 25 years. However, I will admit that BMW dealers all provide excellent customer service and most provide loaners if your bike needs servicing.
I agree with Richard230. To me, it seems ludicrous to imagine resolving similar problems in the same way with a gas bike - for example, contacting Honda or BMW directly to resolve a faulty throttle body or intermittent stalls. Like other manufacturers, Zero's first line of customer service should be local service centers. But the quality of service from dealers or service centers seems to vary wildly, and some customers seem to be ignored.
* Some dealerships are really going the extra mile for their customers, and I hope they are rewarded for doing so.
* Some dealerships are held up by troubles on Zero's end. Logistics will never perfect, but from anecdotes there appear to be numerous supply problems.
* Some dealerships have issues with lack of adequate training. This is not helped by significant redesigns to the battery and motor/controller combination in 2012 and 2013. Net result however is that lack of training pushes service issues back to Zero, and I think they are understaffed to deal with service issues in a timely fashion.
* Some dealerships honestly don't seem to care about supporting the bikes. Perhaps this makes financial sense - a dealer that has sold few bikes may see little reason to support them. But the end result is a negative customer experience, and Zero needs to reform or cull these dealers.
I've probably hit every serious service issue on the 2012 bikes. 2 rounds of the controller glitch, faulty weatherproofing on the BMS board, faulty cells. In 20 months of ownership, the bike has been completely unavailable for about 5 months, and operating in a degraded state for 7 months. Ultimately I would say that I'm disappointed with the bike's demonstrated reliability, but Zero has gone above and beyond my expectations for their warranty service, especially as I am so far away.
Collecting unresolved service issues in one place is a good idea. Squeaky wheel, etc. ZeroLover: I've PMed you contact information for the director of aftersales support at Zero. Start by escalating it within the company, if you have not done so already.
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After two months in my dealer's shop, I finally got my 2011 XU back fully repaired at no cost (I was just one year into a two-year warranty).
It was one of the worst customer service experiences of my life, but I am glad to have my bike back. It is hard to say where the problem lay - the dealer certainly needs to improve their customer service but they also complained that it was very difficult to get help and parts from Zero.
Zero, please pay more attention to your reputation and brand. These dealers are representing your product to the world and it's in your interest to make sure they are properly trained and that you are responsive to their needs.
We, the early adopters, are important to your company's future and are not disposable. You really need to keep us happy.
-Trevor
As of today, here is a first list of users with serious & unsolved cases. Please add yours if any !
If a US lawyer ready to work for a % of torts reads this forum, you're welcomed !
**Jacob
Hello I am a 2011 DS zero owner in Vancouver Canada.
I received a recall notice that said the parts would be in the dealer by mid August.
I am still waiting...
My impression is that it is an incompetent zoo in their parts dept. have several bad experiences with Zero parts.
**Trevor
My 2011 Zero XU worked great for a year (bought new in Sept 2012), almost 4,000 mile commuting to work. Then it started intermittently shutting down (presumably throttle disable due to error). It happened mostly on startup but a couple times while riding.
Here's where it gets pathetic. The bike was still under warranty and I took it back to the dealer. They seemed to have no electronic diagnostic ability whatsoever, at least for this model. It took over a week for them to see the error occur and when it happened they were unprepared to diagnose the problem, so they had to send to Zero for instructions. They could not (or would not put in the effort) to reproduce the problem. So my bike sat in their shop for over a month. Finally after some tense conversations with them they managed to reproduce the error and now apparently had learned from Zero that the motor controller had to be replaced. Then they said it would take a week to get the part from Zero. The dealer complained that Zero was difficult to work with - slow to respond to help requests and slow to deliver parts.
So, over a month in the shop with no offer of a loaner bike or rental car. Both the dealer and Zero are to blame here, but mostly Zero for not paying as much attention to service, and their reputation, as they should.
I don't think Zero knows how badly they've screwed up. Literally dozens of people who thought my bike was really cool have noticed I'm not riding it. Way to go Zero.
My advice to Zero: Don't call yourself Zero unless you intend to be excellent. Your brand can very quickly become a joke.
**Tim
"I just got an update as well on 2012 DS(2700 miles)due to the "glitch." It was perfect for about a week and then got progressively worse over this second week. Possibly correlated to ambient temp. 1. this week has been warming up. 2. bike has sat in the sun after the worst problem I've had. That worst problem being starting off for my ride home at the end of the day. It will move backwards or hardly move when i roll the throttle. I have recently noticed I can "break through" if i manually roll the bike forward and roll the throttle somewhat hard. Seems a little dangerous. Im not sure if i could have done that before the update. As of now the only difference is i dont have to restart with the key when it cuts off."
10/13/2013
" I am not giving up on Zero. Despite my dealership that is playing catch-up, they and especially the eastern zero tech have been responsive. I am still riding and just dealing with it until I hear back about the next course of action. Trying to be patient and trusting.
Some other notes of interest:
My zero was a demo so may have been a somewhat earlier build (Edit: #123, I assume it is consecutive out of the factory?)
the update, done sometime in early September, did negate the need to restart with the key while moving. It does seem that it will cut off at higher speeds now"
** Bryan
I currently have my Zero S in the shop and I have been having lackluster service. The problem is I am losing throttle while going down the road, not very fun, and from what I have read a lot of other people have this same issue. First the technician told me that it is probably the contactor because that was the error code I was getting. He told me to open the battery pack myself, not something our owner’s manual suggests to do. He retracted that statement two days later and told me to take it to my local dealer. After one week of having it at the dealer thaey said they could not get the bike to produce the same problem. The dealer said that the ZERO rep told them if they were to change anything it would be the controller. I was not too happy with that because it is a 800 dollar part and I am out of warranty. They said there was nothing else they could do.
I called Zero directly and asked if they had any history on the problem I am having and a new guy told me that it is more than likely the MBB. I told this to the dealer and now they are trying to get a hold of the same guy at Zero I talked to so everyone is on the same page, but I still have not heard back.
It has now been two and a half weeks since I took the bike to the dealership, and 4 weeks since I started dealing with Zero on this problem.
** Vincent
Hi !
I really love Zero bikes, but I had a very unpleasant experience with the XU 2012 I bought. A few months afetr purchase, the "glitch" appeared to the point that the bike began stopping while driving in the traffic. Then I gave it back to the dealership. They kindly offered me a replacement with a 2013 XU (after 3+ months) and both dealer & importer were very nice, but since I need a bike that can be driven with a 125 cc licence (i wanted to give the XU to my mother, and the Learning school refused her, so she needs a bike you can drive with a 125cc permit), which is not the case of the 2013 XU, i'm still waiting for a solution. In the meantime I bought a 2013 S, which look to have a new bug when turning the key on - for which i'm still waiting for a solution from my dealer.
I'm ok to have issues with a new bike, but considered the price I paid (20 k$) i'd really expect quick & reassuring solutions : now i'v put 32.000 $ in two zero bikes and one is broken and no mire in my possession since 6 months, and the other has a new bug for which no excuse or solution has been proposed so far ! And when you see how depressed is the second hand market (basically, second hand price is zero because nobody buys a used Zero), I think Zero's plan should allocate more resources to fix issues and ensure first clients keep the "e-rider" smile on their face !
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All,
- Court is easy : fault is without any doubt on Zero's side. You just give money to your lawyer and get it back + bike refund + compensation for lost time. Clearly when you see such defects, this is really easy ! And yes I've been to court quite often. But this is what I'm doing as a last resort, because it is not the way things should go - unless you have no other options.
- Homologation authorities are in charge of deciding if a particular model is authorized on the roads. Stopping suddenly when in the traffic without any reason is a serious issue that calls for scrutiny. And obviously the tests performed on electric bikes (see Zero's multiple issues with wetness) need to be improved.
-You're right about dealers. And also regarding the complex supply chain. What is still a puzzle for me is when situations turn so badly that in my company someone at top level would look at it, here nothing seems to happen. No even a mail to the customer saying "ok, sorry we messed. it might take a few weeks but we'll fix this !"
-As explained the goal is to get more attention for the cases we collated, and probably others encountering similar issue. By the way, thanks for the messages I got with names or ideas on how to improve the situation. Regarding "power to me" - I don't want any power. My dream is to see our issues solved. We'd really prefer spending our time saying positive things on this bike... But before this, the negative has to be solved. And yes i'm a bit upset by the way we were treated. But after buying a new bike, having it blocked for months, and having no solutions in the foreseeable future, who wouldn't ?
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ZeroLover: Are you representing a firm or not? If you are then fine but be honest about it.
The only people that come out of court happy in the long run are the lawyers. It is certainly not easy and definitely not on this scale. At least not where I live.
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ZeroLover, do you own a Zero bike? If so, what?
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Courts are a bad idea and must always be a last resort, as they have a tendency to simply ruin everything for everyone in the long term.
They make a mess of the smaller companies, while the bigger companies are too large to be affected by the rulings.
Its short term profit for long term ruin.
Horrible.
Anyway, I have found that my dealers (and their interaction with Zero) is first rate, and this is in the UK where Zero have limited presence...!
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All,
- Court is easy : fault is without any doubt on Zero's side. You just give money to your lawyer and get it back + bike refund + compensation for lost time. Clearly when you see such defects, this is really easy ! And yes I've been to court quite often. But this is what I'm doing as a last resort, because it is not the way things should go - unless you have no other options.
Quite often? Really? For what?
Court is never, ever, ever, ever "easy".
As an example, in this case. IF you were able to establish that there IS any fault, who is the "Zero side"? The dealer? The manufacturer? Someone else?
Where do you live?
- Homologation authorities are in charge of deciding if a particular model is authorized on the roads. Stopping suddenly when in the traffic without any reason is a serious issue that calls for scrutiny. And obviously the tests performed on electric bikes (see Zero's multiple issues with wetness) need to be improved.
I'm still waiting to hear who the "homologation" authorities are? Agency name, please.
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One example for the US is the FMVSS - federal motor vehicle safety standards. It specifies performance requirements and design considerations like lighting (color, brightness, directed angle and spread), braking performance, controls, etc.
The NHTSA administers compliance with this standard, as well as safercar.gov where users can submit incident reports that may be used to initiate a recall.
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Totally agree that courts should never be a preferred option when a good faith dialog exists (ie : someone listens to you, gives you a clear view of the process/delay, and makes his best efforts to find an acceptable solution to the issue, all this in a reasonable delay). But after long discussions with dealer and zero - which is what was done in all the cases I mentioned - and no news or solution for months, what can you do ? Of course it will cost a bit in the short term, but in the end the one that loses the case will pay - and here there is no doubt who will. It is just a matter of time - but if your case is correctly built, and if you can prove - which is the case here - that nothing was done to try to fix the case, then you can get money for the time lost.
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No I'm not representing any firm. I just found myself trapped in a nightmare scenario, and realized I was not alone. I also found that many of us were not really willing to voice the issue or did not now how to face complex issues with a company organized in a way that makes it difficult to answer the problem. Having some experience on this, I decided to help. For me, the problem is not that someone decides to ignore our issues, but that organization, supply chain & resources allocations make it almost impossible to solve these cases unless the company sees the real cost of harming customers like this, or they understand that some customers are stuck somewhere.
We did the escalation the right way - dealer, zero. Then nothing happened - except, very recently, for Trevor but nothing for the other ones. Plus email to me explaining that they're managing issues on a case by case basis - but looks more like a defense for the guy in charge and an attempt to split an union of rightfully angry customers.
But if the cases mentioned get a solution, i'll happy to tell it. If Zero adapts its process so that no user can stay 6 months with a broken bike an no solution, i'll be the first to delete this topic.
As explained, goal is not to seek revenge or to harm a company that makes products that can be great if they work correctly, but to find solution for unacceptable customer service cases. And it is every user's interest... Maybe I don't do it the perfect way - and any feedback on how to make it quicker is welcomed - but excessive criticism or innuendos are misplaced : we have serious & real problems, and are trapped in a situation with no solution. This is not acceptable.
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ZeroLover, do you own a Zero bike? If so, what?
ZeroLover, do you own a Zero Motorcycle or have you ever ridden one?
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I just found myself trapped in a nightmare scenario, and realized I was not alone.
What happened with yours?
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Several issues & dysfunctions. The smallest one were fixed after some weeks. After some time the bike was very difficult to start, and stopped without notice.
The problem is probably partly the dealer, and partly inside zero. The core issue is that there are quality issues (some well know here - the glitch, the click sound, the wetness preventing the battery from working correctly, the recalls,...), and for some unfortunate users, probably with 10 % probably or maybe lower, with multiple known issues and some less known you end up months without a bike, nobody telling you what's happening and when in will stop, and nobody caring. For me brand management is ensuring customers are happy, whatever the issues, and making sure no customer is trapped in the 4th dimension - in the cases I mentioned no bike, no info for months. Hence the efforts to make these cases known, fixed and process adapted so that future customer avoid this. And minimizing the issues - they are all genuine, and probably only a small share of the total - or trying to discredit the messenger is not the right way to handle this ! Also, the fact that the newer model seem better is no reason to ignore early adopters who suffered issues, significant value loss & early adopters risks !
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Had to send my '12 S back to California for glitch 2.0 motor replacement/encoder potting/throttle issues. They had the bike for about eight weeks -- which was generally OK since I was away on vacation during that time. Both Zero and the dealer (Carbon (-) in NYC) were generally responsive and communicated well. Took a little longer to get the bike back than I would have preferred, but I never felt like I was being ignored. And my wife went ahead and bought a '13 XU this Fall after seeing my experience with Zero.
--Karl
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Had to send my '12 S back to California for glitch 2.0 motor replacement/encoder potting/throttle issues. They had the bike for about eight weeks -- which was generally OK since I was away on vacation during that time. Both Zero and the dealer (Carbon (-) in NYC) were generally responsive and communicated well. Took a little longer to get the bike back than I would have preferred, but I never felt like I was being ignored. And my wife went ahead and bought a '13 XU this Fall after seeing my experience with Zero.
--Karl
Since 2011 have had nothing but positive experiences with Zero and my dealer on every issue. For those who describe "nightmare" service issues I can't help but wonder what they contributed to the communications and other problems they experienced.
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I kind of wonder how the 100 2012 bikes that were sold to the Bogota police are working out?
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ZeroLover, do you own a Zero bike? If so, what?
ZeroLover, do you own a Zero Motorcycle or have you ever ridden one?
ZeroLover, Your inability to answer a direct and simple question multiple times almost certainly makes you a lawyer.
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ZeroLover, do you own a Zero bike? If so, what?
ZeroLover, do you own a Zero Motorcycle or have you ever ridden one?
ZeroLover, Your inability to answer a direct and simple question multiple times almost certainly makes you a lawyer.
LOL! I resemble that comment!
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Several issues & dysfunctions. The smallest one were fixed after some weeks. After some time the bike was very difficult to start, and stopped without notice.
The problem is probably partly the dealer, and partly inside zero. The core issue is that there are quality issues (some well know here - the glitch, the click sound, the wetness preventing the battery from working correctly, the recalls,...), and for some unfortunate users, probably with 10 % probably or maybe lower, with multiple known issues and some less known you end up months without a bike, nobody telling you what's happening and when in will stop, and nobody caring. For me brand management is ensuring customers are happy, whatever the issues, and making sure no customer is trapped in the 4th dimension - in the cases I mentioned no bike, no info for months. Hence the efforts to make these cases known, fixed and process adapted so that future customer avoid this. And minimizing the issues - they are all genuine, and probably only a small share of the total - or trying to discredit the messenger is not the right way to handle this ! Also, the fact that the newer model seem better is no reason to ignore early adopters who suffered issues, significant value loss & early adopters risks !
What model do you have?
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I kinda feel like we've all been trolled by ZeroLover.
+m
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Zerolover works for Brammo
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Zerolover works for Brammo
Do you have any evidence to back that up, DesignerDan? If not, let's try to avoid trolling each other.
This entire thread is turning into a witch hunt, and I don't think that's helpful to anyone. Nor is legal action, unless Zero truly is refusing to honor their warranties.. and there's a wealth of anecdotes here that show that is not the case.
I'd love to hear from ZeroLover or any of the complainants about their experiences escalating the problems within Zero, as I feel this is the correct route for resolution.
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No, I was just joking around. This whole thread seems a bit odd. I'm not sure what zerolover's angle is. He still hasn't said whether or not he owns a Zero. It seems he's representing someone or a group of people.
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I did not want to post here, but it looks like this discussion turns into a stalinian trial. Instead we should be looking for solutions...
I had a very bad experience, and it is not over. I bought a XU after discussing here with a canadian XU owner. The bike stopped working after a few months, in april/may, was back to the dealer in june and since then
- no news for 3 months
- then they proposed me a solution which proved of no value for me
- no news since then, except that they think that their initial solution is "all they can do"
So basically I bought a bike, which I have been unable to use for 6 months, with no acceptable solution - ie fixing the bike or refunding me. I wrote to Zero, with no result. When you see the speed at which these bikes lose their value (no secondhand market), and the fact that XU models has been stopped, 6 months means 30 % of the value of the bike.
This is what I call a REALLY AWFULL bad customer experience. And i'm glad others had better experiences, but it really does not make me feel better. Right now, i don't see any other option that giving the case to a lawyer : dealer says he can't do anything and Zero stick to its proposition which I dont want (i want the bike fixed or refunded). Pretending that it does not happen, or that it is the customer's fault is really ridiculous. And I can tell you i'm not alone : craig, the user which initially advised me to buy an XU also had an awfull experience, and I heared he finally scrapped it to stop worrying about it.
So yes, very bad customer experiences do exist. Yes Zero should do something about it but does not seem to do it. And probably, yes other customer should know this is a real risk - unless it is fixed. Which is not the case today.
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No, I was just joking around. This whole thread seems a bit odd. I'm not sure what zerolover's angle is. He still hasn't said whether or not he owns a Zero. It seems he's representing someone or a group of people.
You know DesignerDan, there was a time when it looked like you were ready for legal action...
"Overall, my Zero experience has been horrible."
"[As a premium brand, Zero...] Are you f*cking kidding me!? Premium!?"
"As a buyer, I feel like I've been tricked/scammed."
"My bike was obviously missing the "quality" part. "
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2782.msg13012#msg13012 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2782.msg13012#msg13012)
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No, I was just joking around. This whole thread seems a bit odd. I'm not sure what zerolover's angle is. He still hasn't said whether or not he owns a Zero. It seems he's representing someone or a group of people.
You know DesignerDan, there was a time when it looked like you were ready for legal action...
"Overall, my Zero experience has been horrible."
"[As a premium brand, Zero...] Are you f*cking kidding me!? Premium!?"
"As a buyer, I feel like I've been tricked/scammed."
"My bike was obviously missing the "quality" part. "
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2782.msg13012#msg13012 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2782.msg13012#msg13012)
Yea I will admit I was pretty aggervated. Furious, actually. But I've had months of problem-free riding so my EV grin has helped me forget how annoying it was when my bike kept breaking down. I guess you can say I have a love hate relationship with Zero.
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All,
I am just an angry customer - same as some of you - who thought that grouping angry customers would be the best way to find individual (faster resolution for our issues) and collective solutions(Zero improve its process so that any customer without his bike for more than, lets say, 30 days gets an increased support & compensation for the lack of availability). I have no other interest that seeing an unfair situation solved. Mine is a XU which spent most of its life back to the dealership. But my personal case is not really the issue here. And the last thing I want is my case solved, and the others let down - as explained, a lawyer will be taking care of my case, and it is a sure win.
Working in industrial aftersales services (in a sector where legal actions are common, and always lost when new product have known & unresolved issues), I fully understand what is happening, and what I am doing is what I think will make things move :
- Zero do not allocate enough resources to customer service (making complex cases very long / impossible to solve), making its marketing promises impossible to respect : premium service (not even close !), hassle free riding (dealers having few parts and qualification, it is often hassle full), easy to use (if you're not a qualified high power electronics specialist, you might suffer !)
- the supply chain is complex, especially abroad. It also look very segmented in a way that nobody feels responsible for the total delay for customer service and that customers can easily be lost between dealers, importers & Zero
- since the company is still small, there is a strong temptation to minimize issues, pretend it is customer's fault and try to discourage customers rather than bringing solutions. Just look at the dynamic of this topic, some of them probably coming from Zero employees ! Motorbike are potentially dangerous vehicles, for the drivers & others. Ignoring issues or customers complaints is really not the right way to do.
Three things can change this
- someone at management understand that there is an issue needing a fix - basically they'll lose more in potential sales & late case resolution, than what a correct & fair case resolution would cost
- either the problem becomes so big that it is impossible to ignore it - ie media start talking about it, but it would mean a severe damage to the brand
- trials costs so much (because customer get compensated for unavailability time, misleading advertisement, legal fees,...) that someone understands that managing the issues in a correct way is the best thing to do,
The good thing is that this is very easy to solve (would Zero after sale executive monitor 30 days+ unavailability cases, this topic would not even exist, and Designerdan & me would be talking about great rides rather than arguing about bad experiences). The bad thing is that nothing seems to move, and the victim are once enthusiastic customers, now becoming increasingly negative about Zero and the idea of buying one of these bikes. So Zero, time to wake up !!!
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I can understand the problem when a bike has a failure and you get no resolution. That makes me mad too. I have had those with gas bikes over the years. For the most part I had to fix and pay for new parts myself. Basically I got ripped off. So with my record, I think overall motorcycle industry is really bad on the warranty topic. That's actually a big factor that has kept me from more purchases than I probably would have done. I also apply this to Zero.
I really want an electric offroad bike, like the FX5.7. At that price point, which for me is quite high, I have a hard time deciding to buy. The performance and attributes are important, but reliability is also a huge thing. Being stranded on some remote trail that nobody will probably ride that day means I cannot expect help to arrive. 25 miles out, oh my, am I even capable of walking back 25 miles? With riding boots, haha? I would bleed to death from all the blisters on my feet. Couldn't count on a cell phone having reception in many places, heck it looses connection when I go downstairs in my house.
Dealers around here are not good. Expecting their help, why even try, so bad. I am treated like I should feel grateful that they are letting me buy a bike from them, or shop there. Crazy. Customer service is dead in other stores around here also. Maybe the people around here are just lame.
Some times spreading around the issues on forums full of past and potential buyers might get a company to put some effort into some resolution so they don't look like a bad company. The good warranty examples presented here have no meaning to me if the bad ones exist. Because that means I could be one of the people getting the bad one if I decided to buy. With my track record, I would get the bad one, yes I believe that. I am a nice person too, so why do I get treated so bad. Unless that is the problem, seen as and easy target that won't fight back?
It is tough to pay warranty, it might put some companies out of business. It certainly does not help the profit side of business, but you just have to do it. Otherwise you are stealing other peoples money. It is a crappy thing to have to go through, so I feel your pain.
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I have complete confidence in my dealer. Without dealer support, I wouldn't think of owning such high-tech motorcycles. Actually, I wouldn't own any motorcycle without a good dealer.
Part of the issue is new technology as I'm sure everyone is aware. I have owned 3 Ninja 300s...2 2013s and now a 2014. These replaced the Ninja 250r. Just adding the re-designed engine and body and adding fuel injection and optional abs was enough to cause problems, namely unsightly fairing gaps, engine stalls, and ABS not working. It took Kawa hundreds of complaints and well over a year to effectively deal with the issues, but the model is now solid. Both my 2013's had fairing gaps and stall issues. I didn't have ABS on those models. Eventually, after someone was rear-ended (is what I heard), Kawa issued recalls for the ABS and ECU. When I traded the 2013s in, the 2 problems were still present and recalls had not yet been sent out. The fairing gap also remained an issue and in fact was present in my 2014 model and some people still have not got it fixed after more than 2 years. Huge unsightly gaps. Took me 2 2-day appointments to get that fixed and it needed new fairings, brackets and clips, but it did get fixed.
Unless you are a Dr. Bass or Tikester, you better have a good dealer. These are not exactly do-it-yourself bikes. Even Dr. Bass and Trikester, etc. do a lot of communicating with the Zero people even though they do work on their own bikes. I would go so far as to say you have to expect problems with these bikes.
How the dealer and Zero handle those problems is really the main issue. I do agree if someone is without their bikes running safely for months while something is being fixed by the dealer or Zero for whatever reason, that Zero or the dealer needs to extend the warranty for all the down time, or make other arrangements like a loaner bike to be fair.
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I expected more troubles from theses bikes when I took the plunge and got a 12 DS this Spring. I rode that bike for 6500 miles. One failure quickly covered under warranty. It never failed to startup, throttle response was perfect every time and maintenance was almost Zero.
It completely exceeded my expectations in terms of reliability and dependability and I rode it almost every day of this season.
In my limited experience Zero Motorcycles have been the most trouble free motorcycle that I have ever owned which I did not expect at the beginning.
I do have a great local dealer and I would not have risked it without that knowledge.
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Some update !
Still no news on my XU issue - now 7 months since the issue appeared, and 6 months without the bike. It appears that in this case the dealer did what was possible, but the issue is really on Zero side : for significant fixes, they have to send the bike back to Zero. And for refund / bike replacement, Zero has to take a decision which they do not seem to do in correct delays.
In my case, I still have no news. The good thing is that discussions on these issues attracted some press attention (two different newspapers contacted me for feedback - apparently they mentionned other pending cases). Also, I had confirmation that the legal procedure is quite straightforward (you even do not need a lawyer, and judges are quite generous in cases where you can demonstrate constructor's lack of will to solve issues they're responsible for). Unfortunately, even the fault is on Zero's side, it is the deal which I will have to sue, and dealers will sue Zero to get the money the judge will award me.
I'll post precise details regarding the procedure, the letters & the amounts that can be claimed very soon !
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Why did you feel the need to create a second account to bring this up vchampain? I'm assuming it's the same person as the prose is similar and you both sign some posts with a V.
I'm glad you are reaching a resolution but it's a shame you are involving two sets of vultures. The media and the courts that is.
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Is V for Vendetta?
(Couldn't help myself, carry on. Or if V is for Vulture, carrion. yuk yuk)
Fair enough seeking fair treatment and given the disorder I experienced (am experiencing) during the purchasing process direct from HQ I can imagine things don't always get handled well. A shame if Zero is risking this kind of reputation as a fledgling company and hopefully they will aggressively make things right. We're all so defensive of them because we want this to be so.
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Fair enough seeking fair treatment and given the disorder I experienced (am experiencing) during the purchasing process direct from HQ I can imagine things don't always get handled well. A shame if Zero is risking this kind of reputation as a fledgling company and hopefully they will aggressively make things right. We're all so defensive of them because we want this to be so.
Actually, many of us are defensive for Zero because we have had problems resolved quickly and effectively.
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Still no news on my XU issue
Didn't know you also have a XU. That's a pity it's not working. What's the problem with it ?
Laurent
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Hi Laurent !
The XU first had problems starting (i needed to turn it off and on a few times before it started), then suddenly stopped into the traffic (you can imagine how dangerous it is !). After less than one year I had to bring it back to a dealer. Then I had no news for 3 months, until I menaced them I would go to court & claim reparation.
They proposed me a 2013 XU, but this model takes no passenger & needs a motorbike license which makes it useless (nobody with a license will want a small bike, and I wanted to give my XU to family members having no license). Total : after more than 6 months, I still have no solution, no indication of when I will have and nobody talks with me : the dealer explains that serious issues must be dealed with by Zero, Zero explain me that their only solution is a 2013 XU. I must had that I tried to see if I could resell the 2013 XU - even with a 50 % discount on the price, there have been no answer to an ad in the biggest used motorbike forum.
Which is ridiculous inder any law of any country : they sold me a flawed bike and should either fix it (and compensate me for the 6 months the bike I bought was unusable because of serious & dangerous issue totally under their responsability), andf refund me. What really makes me crazy is the scandalous way i'm let without any solution or news - this is really a very bad customer service, and probably a reason that should discourage many users from buying zeros. i woud never have bought a zero had I known this could happen. And other users in this forum expressed the same concern : it seems that simple fixes or small parts changes can be dealt with, but that in case of serious issue, Zero's way to manage things is to let you down...
And now my 2013 Zero S shows the very same glitch I first had with the XU - it does not start until I turn it on and off 2 to 4 times. So I am really bitter with this situation. And I know I'm not alone...
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And now my 2013 Zero S shows the very same glitch
Oh yeh, this one seems to be famous but I think there's a cure with reprogramming something for the main relay to work.
However the 2012 or sooner models like your XU are notoriously unreliable, and I 120% agree with you, it should be taken care under warranty without delay. Is the french distributor skillfull enough ? That's the question that is also bothering me for my 2013DS....
On high-end mountain bikes it's the same problem here in France: the french distributors are not up to the task when problems arise. They are just up to selling you at the higher price products you will have huge difficulties to get parts, services and warranty. And they calculate price with 1$=1€ so you pay 1.5 the US price.....
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So they did offer to give you a brand new bike? Could you not have it restricted to suit your licensing laws?
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Thanks for the suggestions.
They offered me a demo 2013 XU, which I thought be great because I wanted to give it to my family. Unfortunately I discovered that the 2013 XU needs a licence - weird choice, making it absolutely worthless for me. If you limit the power of your bike - which is an option a considered - then you need a complex legal procedure to ensure it can be driven without licence. Regarding the 2013 Zero, yes i'll look for a solution. But for the 2012 XU i offered other options (like paying a little bit to exchange it with a 2012 S/DS, a refund, ...) but I had no answer so far.
I have the same bitter feeling I had with my telco a few years ago - very keen to sell you something, able to solve the common issues they identified. But totally unable / uwilling / lacking the focus & resource to solve more complex cases. And they did not move until consumers associations & govt pressured them...
You're right about dealers telling you whatever they can to sell. So my advice to any new potential client is:
- make everything said written
- the option that you're stuck for month with a non working bike is something you must consider - go ahead only if you can afford it
- if you lack time/expertise to deal with this sort of issue, stay away from Zero until the customer service really care - this is not the case today
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- the option that you're stuck for month with a non working bike is something you must consider - go ahead only if you can afford it
I'm keeping a collector BMW C1 200CC ICE scooter just in case !!!
Laurent
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Wait a minute, you claim Zero have shoddy service because they offered you a better, newer more expensive model bike to replace the one that has a terminal fault...?!
I can see why, given the license issue you might find that an difficult offer, but you must also accept that from Zero's perspective is a VERY generous offer indeed. A Judge might also consider that too.
I do sympathise with your situation, but given what you describe Zero have acted very properly and generously towards you. I'd imagine that if you dig into this, you'll find they simply don't have a 2012 XU to offer you, so instead offered you a better bike.
My suggestion, for what its worth (not much) is take your test, and when you give the bike to a family member, they can also take their test. A test which grants a license which is useful for the rest of their lives. You are not just gifting them a bike, but also the reason to get a license, a doubly useful gift.
Good grief man, accept Zeros offer. I would, in a heart beat!!!
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This guy is a real piece of work, or these guys.
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My Zero experience has been traumatic in the extreme.
The bike is a dud the service is non existent now the battery charger just errors out.
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Nicktulloh:
What I need is an offer that has some use ofr me. They proposed me a newer bike I can't use, give to a friend/familiy or resell. If someone sells you a faulty product, what you expect is not an offer THEY consider generous, but an offer that solve YOUR issue or a refund. This one does not, and by the way the newer model probably has LESS value than the older : because of the need for a licence (and the fact that XU serie is now stopped) nobody will buy it.
If you buy a horse that dies a few month after purchase for reasons known by the seller, and you are offered a unicorn you can't ride or sell would you consider this "great". Whatever the "sticker" price of the unicorb, it does not solve your issue. And the company selling you a faulty product's duty is to give you a similar product or a refund...
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Justin :
The license is much more than a test, and costs some time & money (it is the same you need to ride bigger ICE bikes). And the only use I could have for this bike (letting it at a familiy house where people can use it, most of them at an age where they could not get a new license) need a bike without license. I tried to resell the zero 2012 XU or tried a selling a 2013 XU i dont have - in 6 months i got not proposition using the most popular sites, even at very discounted prices (-50 to - 70 %).
So in theory zero's proposition was interesting, but unfortunately it does not solve my issue - accepting it would mean losing the 8000 € i put in the zero xu for someone nobody would buy, and nobody would use... And since i'm not responsible for the fact that the bike stopped in the middle of the traffic 10 months after purchase, I do not think I am the one that should bear a 8000 loss. Does it make sense for you ?
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Last thing
Here is a simple analysis anybody would follow:
- what is the fault - selling a defective product
- who is faulty - for the costumer the dealer that sells faulty products (the latter should then sue Zero if needed, but is responsible for what he sells). But of course the root responsability is on Zero.
- what is the fair treatment of the issue - refunding or providing a working solution (ie same licence in my case !)
Of course i've always been open for a discussion to find a fair solution for me that's less costly for zero (my intend is not to harm zero, but to have my issue solved, and i know zero is a small & new company). Unfortunately there is no such option on the table today...
I would add that we all want the company to succeed, user communauty to grow,... But, for this, Zero should also take care to solve customer's "nightmare" issues.
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VChampion, years ago I was in the same position as you regarding a cheap 125cc motorbike (it was a clone of a Honda CB125)
To say the thing was a hanger queen was no exaggeration, it was frankly the worse bike I've owned, breaking down once a week on average.
The company who built it did not want to know, and the dealer could not fix it. Instead the dealership offered me a seriously seriously good deal on the somewhat newly released Kawasaki ER5.
Well interesting, because at the time I had been avoiding taking my test too and instead riding around on 125's. However the offer was so good I accepted, and took the ER5, and you know, passing my test was the most wonderful thing. Since then I've ridden (and wrecked in the case of the ER5) a range of wonderful bikes.
Take your test, get your family to take theirs. There is a whole world of wonderful bikes waiting for you.
Oh, and the 2013 Zeros, f**k me they are a blast to ride...
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I have the test, and already bought a ANOTHER zero - i'm using everyday, even if a glitch appeared recently - on the promise that the XU would be fixed quickly. It has not been.
So the repaired XU will either be for my friend (she had bad experiences with big bikes and does not want to take the test) or my mother (72 yrs, not accepted for the test). So even if Zero paid for the test (it is not cheap) it would not solve the issue.
And by the way solving a costumer issue on a seriously defective bike should not involve my mother, my friend or what I can change in my life so that it works. It should be about either refunding or fixing !
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I don't understand why your bike is not repaired - There is the Battery pack (BMS Contactor ) a MBB and the Sevcon +Throttle + Motor and wiring.
Actually my dealer has still a 2012 XU to sell AND there should be a bunch of spare parts - I can't believe it is so hard to fix.
Where is your bike at Zero Netherlands or US? Do you know that?
I am in Europe too and all I experienced the Netherlands have good skilled manpower!
The license is really expansive in Europe so the US folks will not understand your problem - You need ~1300€ + the driving lessons ~500-700€. To spending 2000€ is quite normal ???
Then you only have the small license (it is enough for all Zeros) but you need to spend more if you will get the full license later!
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Weird, here in the UK your either have to take the small (CBT) test every two years costing about £100 + bike hire a time, or take the full (DAS) test which is not that expensive (even the lessons only cost me about £500) all in all it pays for itself in about 10ish years time.
If it really is that expensive to take your test on the continent, that would explain all the small bikes that are so popular.
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My sister works for a driving school and I called her because my license is 28 years past. She started to ask me how old is the person... I stopped her because I want to know generally but things are so complex since some years even she can't answer it strait - but 1500-2000€ will be a must :'(
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Totally agree. Yes license is very expensive, takes time and moreover you pass it on "heavy" ICE bikes - 65+ users are usually refused. This is why the 2012 XU's market value is probably higher than the 2013 XU - nobody will buying a small bike needing a license with no passenger possibility. Probably something that Zero did not understand when making their proposition.
When buying a Zero I was expecting fixes (i had smaller issues that were managed quite ok), and even being asked for feedback so that they could improve the models. I really liked the idea of pushing an "eco" way for mobility (electricity in France is co2 poor). I was even ready to help Zero in my country make their way. Btw it is the NL service center that is involved, but I think also the fact that the 2012 XU is maybe not fixable.
But I did not expect being left 6 months with my issue, a non working solution (looking great on the paper, but unfortunately not workable), and nobody seeming to try to find a working one. And i'm not looking for any sort of revenge - really no time for this - but only a normal customer service (ie finding solution that solve costumer's problem, at customer's cost if he's faulty, and at zero's cost if fault is on their side).
And my friend, who was the one using the XU, found out that many other users had similar issues - including the one who I contacted here when considering buying an XU - fery positive at that time, but whose experience ended in a nightmare. After posting here she found many other cases, mentionned earlier here.
So, for other users that expressed their views here
- I'm suprised by messages minimizing the issue, or explaining me that I should abandon the idea of a workable solution is ok - even if they come from Zero employees
- I do not think the few messages critical to myself or trying to discredit the issue are the right way to manage the issue - fixit it or helping to fix it would be ! Btw thanks to the many positive personal messages offering solutions & testimonies
- I'm happy that other users had better experiences on smaller issues, and it was the same for me. Unfortunately, nightmare issues exist - this is the issue here
- I understand the users feeling a bit attacked by theses stories, but unfortunately it could have happened to them. And the attack is not on my side - I was patient (months with no news), trusted the company (bought a new bike before the other one was fixed), tried discussion with dealers and zero first. But unfortunately it does not work so far.
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I am a person who will never buy a zero again, and I tell all and sundry to avoid the products made by Zero. My experience with the MX has been traumatic in the extreme.
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Wow! These postings are amazing to me. I own three Zero bikes and I've only had 3 or 4 minor problems which were quickly resolved. And I bitch about having to fight LA traffic to drive to West Hollywood, with the bikes in my truck (1 1/2 to 2 hrs to go 55 miles).
Maybe we just need to ship Harlan all over the world. ;D
Trikester
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I love my Zero. Not having to warm it up in cooler weather and using it for short trips makes it my bike of choice. That built-in storage is nice too. I can see myself buying another Zero. It is my second. I owned a 2011 S too, but the 2013 model is so much better in all respects. I rode it today. Jumped on it, zipped over to Subway 1.4 miles away. Then back home and plugged her in. Done. I rode my other bikes too...Warm up 2-3 minutes, ride away slowly so I don't stress the engine, ride at least 10 min. even if I didn't need to just to get the oil up to temp, battery charged, seals lubricated, and moisture burned out of the exhaust, and eventually get through a tank of gas so I can put new gas in sometime this winter.
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I am a person who will never buy a zero again, and I tell all and sundry to avoid the products made by Zero. My experience with the MX has been traumatic in the extreme.
Rather than posting the same thing all over the forum, maybe you could explain what actually happened with your MX and what was so traumatic?
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"And by the way solving a costumer issue on a seriously defective bike should not involve my mother, my friend or what I can change in my life so that it works. It should be about either refunding or fixing !"
One standard solution, in almost any retail situation, that you aren't posing is replacement with a like OR BETTER product.
Zero has apparently (your plaintive posts are a little short on specifics) offered that and because of your SPECIFIC SITUATION, it doesn't work for you. I would hazard a guess that it WOULD work for 99% of customers and they would be happy about it.
Perhaps it's all perspective. Those of us who have been around for a while (I got my mc license 41 years ago) are more likely to have a hard time not so much with your disappointment in the situation, but your childish response.
As with ANY retail situation, there are going to be dissatisfied customers. Some with cause, some without. Some resolved, some not. I sincerely hope all Zero customers get their issues resolved. I sincerely doubt that, given the overwhelmingly positive response from the vast majority, the problem rests solely with Zero. Crappy individual dealers? Quite possible, and I wish you all the best if that's the situation.
If I read one more post where the complainer goes off the deep end because one or two emails or tweets or twops have gone unanswered - I'm going to puke.
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Nicktulloh - We're not talking about a few mails without answers, but 200 days without solution. I do not understand your agressivity and the judgmental way you're commenting. In most of the world an acceptable solution is not one that looks great for the seller of a faulty product, but one that solves the customer issue ! And I told them it was not ok...
Now for a more positive message : i got my messages finally answered and it looks that a solution could be close. If this materializes, we can delete this topic and replace it with a "how to escalate issues FAQ". Because, as explained, this is not about commenting, criticizing or "puking". Or explaining that catastrophic issues are rare (so what ? they should be ignored or let without solution ???). But about ensuring issues get solutions, and bikes stay on the road rather than in the repair shop...
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Nicktulloh - We're not talking about a few mails without answers, but 200 days without solution. I do not understand your agressivity and the judgmental way you're commenting. In most of the world an acceptable solution is not one that looks great for the seller of a faulty product, but one that solves the customer issue ! And I told them it was not ok...
I disagree. If the proposed solution would satisfy 99% of the customers, that's almost the definition of a satisfactory solution.
Perhaps I'm over-reacting due to the way this thread was opened and the ongoing evasiveness.
The Zero is a small but extremely important part of the solution to the critical mess the earth is in. For all practical purposes it's cutting edge, just like the Tesla.There are always going to be teething pains in cutting edge technologies. It may be that Zero, or a dealer, or dealers, have dropped the ball. There's a great deal of anecdotal evidence that they're doing a lot right, too.
Frankly, if the way these few problems were presented to Zero and/or their dealer(s), starting with the title of the thread, mirrors the way they've been presented on this thread, no small amount of the blame lies with the owners, too.
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Well this happened this way :
- serious issues on XU, and as a replacement we bought an additional new one - expecting some reactivity on fixing the old one as a result
- 3 months at dealership, no news !
=> lots of emails & asking complaining from me (and sincerly, I have much better things to do than this)
- a proposition that does not match my needs, which I do not consider as a solution
- 3 more months without news, or anything looking like a solution
=> more mails, complaining & so. No news until a few days ago
I do not think I was ever overexpecting (that's 6 months without the bike), I did escalate properly (talked calmly with dealers and explained what I would have to do to force them to find a solution after such an unacceptable delay), and do not think I was faulty for anything - really I was quite open and my priority was only to be able to stop worrying about this.
And yes probably part of the structural solution (ie not only fixing my issue, which would make my chrismas much happier, but ensuring complex case are better managed) is for Zero to track issues stopping bikes with no solution for more than say, 40 days. Because, as many mentionned, it is the better way to detect bad interactions between customers / dealers / regional Zero / global Zero, and ensure that no customer is stuck, whatever the complexity.
Maybe I'm a bit naive, but even if my personal issue look on a path to a solution, I would really like that, for the future, no customer is stuck in a similar situation so that I can warmly recommend Zero to anybody asking me where I got mine ! And really, this would benefit the whole customer communauty - even the ones without solutions, but who might want to resell a bike someday...
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I give up.