ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Le Z Turbo on December 06, 2013, 12:11:44 PM
-
I'm riding in minus zero (Celsius, sorry !) temperature now. I never had a "long" range capability on my 11.4DS but I'm riding as hard as I can as it's always a war between cars and bikes here in France and I have several parts of my trip at 120km/h, no highway tough. So my range is 80-100kms but as I say it's normal for my ON/OFF type of riding. And this is the range I need to go working.
But with the low temperature I have noticed that power is lower, my accelerations are slower, it's noticeable, and range lower. For the range I can't be sure as sometimes I have to ride as smooth as I can because there's still some ice patches I must avoid when riding very early in the morning before the salt truck pass, and so I adopt an economical riding !
Have you noticed also the power decrease with very low temp ? I've noticed it also on my RC model aircrafts which run also on LiPo, must be a chemestery things ?
Laurent
-
It is a chemistry thing! The reaction at low temperature is slower. You have a 98Ah pack and you pull max 420A so it is ~4C for your battery. I is some stress to the Li-ion NMC cells.
How do you deal with the salt? I don't drive not of the cold and snow but of the salt that would eat up my aluminum and copper parts :'(
-
Indeed the salt is marking parts. But the frame and fork of the Zero are anodized I think. The most horrific view is the mufler on my ICE scooter, it's in really bad surface shape !!!
-
if you have a hose outside your house just spray it down. Cold water actually works better than warm on salt.
-
First of all, It's pretty awesome that you ride through all of the weather. I do the same here in upstate New York, and most people give me hell for it, but of course motorcycles are awesome transportation most of the time, so long as it's not a snowstorm.
As far as the cells are concerned, you're nearing the minimum temperature that the cells are designed to be used at. I'm sure Zero and indeed most motorcycle manufactures don't design for our use case (below 0 C). In fact I believe the Zero will not charge the pack below 0C. One way you might be able to get around this is to install a resistive heating pad around the batteries. If you only plug it in while you're charging, You'll end up with decent performance on the way in to work. It might even be feasible to also power it from the main battery pack in order to warm up the pack to get more performance. The wasted heating energy may very well not cost you anything in terms of capacity, once the cells are warmed up a bit.
Keep us posted. Winter riding is never for the faint of heart. 8)
-
Indeed as I alway say to my wife, the worse the weather the worse the trafic jam and the better you will be ridding a bike !!!! But I'm equiped with the heated grips, hand grip cocovers, Gaucho and now a new bigger windscreen (I'm posting a new thread right now)
I'm charging indoor in my garage which is round about 10°C. So no problem to get my 100%. But then as I'm ridding in the cold I can feel the power loss and the range reduction.
Laurent
-
I did a 22 mile road ride (44 miles RT) on my '13FX last week that i have done before without any recharge at the destination (22 miles). This time, with the temp at 54* (not cold by some of you snow country standards, but cold by my SoCal standards) and I had to put in an hours charge before starting the ride back. Fortunately, the cafe had an outside 120 VAC outlet.
I think that the 54* certainly contributed to the lack of range problem but a bigger factor was probably attributed to my having the tire pressure low for previous sandy trail riding. The pressure may have gone even lower while rolling on the cold pavement (mostly cloudy day). I could easily notice that I couldn't coast down shallow slopes that I could coast before. When I finally got back to the house my thinking was that I should have taken the tires up to 25 or 30 lbs before starting out. They were both at 15 lbs when I checked before starting the ride.
Tire pressure can make a huge difference in mileage. Tires checked in a warm garage may drop quite a bit when riding in cold outside temps.
Trikester
-
How about sticking one of these on the bottom of your battery pack?
http://www.thatpetplace.com/zilla-heat-mat-large-50-60gal-24w-8in-18in?sc=19&category=3307 (http://www.thatpetplace.com/zilla-heat-mat-large-50-60gal-24w-8in-18in?sc=19&category=3307)
-
As I said in another thread, be careful you're getting something temperature controlled if you're going to do that. Those things can likely get well over the ~100ºC required to set off a thermal event. Also you will be decreasing the battery's ability to convect heat away in warmer months unless you remove them.
-
33F/0C in tonight's ride home of just 5.3mi/8.53km. Plugged in in her usual spot in the garage (front) and neither the rhythmic clicks nor green light on the dash happened. No sign she was taking a charge. The bike would still turn on, however. Worried, we rolled her into the house. After an hour, I plugged her back in, and she is now happily drinking from the tap. :)I t's always an unusual sight in the foyer. I hope nobody trips on her in the middle of the night! :)
+ m
-
I'm lucky 'cause I have a garage with positive temperatures. I always wait something between 15 to 30 minutes before pluging the Zero so the battery can cool down or heat up during winter. It's not exacltly for temperature that I wait but for the chemical reaction inside the battery to stop and chemical element to settle down so I won't go directly from discharge to charge.
Laurent
-
mehve - maybe you can do glow-in-the-dark wheels next : )
-
mehve - maybe you can do glow-in-the-dark wheels next : )
ZX6R Kawasaki Green Tron Lightcycle - Glow in the dark motorbike wheels (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x_kf7Zo3Yo#ws)
:)
-
Indeed as I alway say to my wife, the worse the weather the worse the trafic jam and the better you will be ridding a bike !!!! But I'm equiped with the heated grips, hand grip cocovers, Gaucho and now a new bigger windscreen (I'm posting a new thread right now)
I'm charging indoor in my garage which is round about 10°C. So no problem to get my 100%. But then as I'm ridding in the cold I can feel the power loss and the range reduction.
Laurent
Laurent, can you post photos of your bike with the hand protection, windshield ect?
You can never find photos in that configuration online, and I am thinking about buying those, but I want to see what the bike would look like that way.
thx
-
It's awful but so practical !!! I will take pictures tomorrow.
-
It may be the higher internal resistance in the cold batteries that is killing our range by dissipating more power in the battery itself.
I did a short FX ride yesterday similar to others I have done at warmer temps. I used 135 kW/Mi. I've never used more than 113 kW/Mi before on any ride except one ride in deep sand used 129 kW/Mi.
So that isn't just the battery holding less capacity but it's also causing me to use more energy/Mi due to higher IR losses in the cold battery. Otherwise I would have used the usual amount of kW/Mi but would have had lower range due to capacity. MY guess is that it is a combination of both but resistance being dominate.
The upside? The power dissapitated in the battery will warm it up. ;) Walking the bike back home will also warm us up. ;D
Trikester
-
Great explanation, exactly what I'm feeling.
Laurent
-
Laurent, can you post photos of your bike with the hand protection, windshield ect?
Si I've done some pictures this morning, I'm gonna put it in the more related thread http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3315.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3315.0)
-
I tried charging my battery to 90% last night, and then doing the remaining 10% charge today prior to riding.
That massively improved cold weather range by heating the battery up during charging rather than discharging. I don't know how good this is for the long term health of the battery however.
-
I think I have seen somewhere regarding the LiPo batteries of RC models that they don't like changing electrical direction too fast. Meaning you have to wait a little after charging before discharging and wait a little for chemical components to settle down after ridding before charging.
But I don't have a clear study about this affirmation so I can't say for sure. And what about Regen braking and then throttle up again ?
Laurent
-
I tried charging my battery to 90% last night, and then doing the remaining 10% charge today prior to riding.
That massively improved cold weather range by heating the battery up during charging rather than discharging. I don't know how good this is for the long term health of the battery however.
It's probably slightly better for the health than allowing it to charge to 100% and then sit for an age.
You should plug it in overnight and let it balance occasionally, though. Maybe once every 10 cycles.
-
I tried charging my battery to 90% last night, and then doing the remaining 10% charge today prior to riding.
That massively improved cold weather range by heating the battery up during charging rather than discharging. I don't know how good this is for the long term health of the battery however.
It's probably slightly better for the health than allowing it to charge to 100% and then sit for an age.
You should plug it in overnight and let it balance occasionally, though. Maybe once every 10 cycles.
Good point.
Though I rarely leave it charged for very long (usually only overnight), as its my main bike for commuting. :)
-
I tried charging my battery to 90% last night, and then doing the remaining 10% charge today prior to riding.
That massively improved cold weather range by heating the battery up during charging rather than discharging. I don't know how good this is for the long term health of the battery however.
The charger on the Zero S and DS is directly below the battery, so, when charging it warms up the battery to some extent as well as the internal resistance of the battery warming itself up. Running a warm battery is not bad for it.
As far as I know there is no truth to the "wait a while after charging before discharging" statement that Le Z Turbo may have seen.
-ryan
-
I think that is the case with LIPO just because they run very hot and you shouldnt charge a battery that is still hot from discharging.
If batteries really didn't like fast changes in current flow direction, regen wouldn't be very popular on electric vehicles.
-
If batteries really didn't like fast changes in current flow direction, regen wouldn't be very popular on electric vehicles.
Good point indeed.
-
Hi, I'm from the Netherlands and I drive also below zero :-) Celsius with my DS 2013.
I also see this decrease of power and range in these conditions but I can still make it to work 58 kilometres where I can recharge.
I hope the next DS model has the features of the SR!!!
For protection I use Corrosion X for the first time this winter because I had heard good reviews about it.
You can spray it on every surface and electrical parts (except tires and brakes!!!)
It is a thin layer and I chose it because I wanted to protect the Alu.Motor but not take hours to clean it after the winter.
With the other brands mostly sticky stuff I wonder if you can get it of the Motor anyway.
So far I see no corrosion on any parts so I have high hopes.
-
Corrosion X looks nice, do you have this brand in Netherland ? I've never seen it in France, we have Rustol OWATROL here but not sure it"s the same effect.
Laurent
-
I know, it's not motorcycle data. Interesting nonetheless. Note the e-car people use heaters & defrosters which use a fair amount of battery.
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089160_nissan-leaf-chevy-volt-range-loss-in-winter-new-data-from-canada (http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089160_nissan-leaf-chevy-volt-range-loss-in-winter-new-data-from-canada)
-
Great report, thanks for the link !
Laurent
-
I know this is an old thread, but I also lost significant range/power while riding in the winter on both my 2012 and my 2015 Zero bikes. After doing some research I found out that the battery chemistry that Zero uses is THE MOST sensitive to cold temperatures of all Li-ion batteries. They are also the most energy dense. This makes sense for most motorcycle riders that only ride in good weather. I ride year-round, so I notice it every year.
My '15 SR range drops from 100 mi/charge in the summer to about 80 mi/charge in the winter once the temperatures drop below 40F.
-
I know this is an old thread, but I also lost significant range/power while riding in the winter on both my 2012 and my 2015 Zero bikes. After doing some research I found out that the battery chemistry that Zero uses is THE MOST sensitive to cold temperatures of all Li-ion batteries. They are also the most energy dense. This makes sense for most motorcycle riders that only ride in good weather. I ride year-round, so I notice it every year.
My '15 SR range drops from 100 mi/charge in the summer to about 80 mi/charge in the winter once the temperatures drop below 40F.
I am glad you replied to this old thread.
Have you also noticed a big change in your charge times? While my range has been around half of last summer, the charge time has also decreased to half, much like as if the battery was really only half the size, with both range and charge time.
-Don- Tulare, CA (RV with Zero DS)
-
I am glad you replied to this old thread.
Have you also noticed a big change in your charge times? While my range has been around half of last summer, the charge time has also decreased to half, much like as if the battery was really only half the size, with both range and charge time.
Actually - to be honest - I'm not sure. When I charge at home I charge with the off-board Delta-Q charger (the onboard charger was removed to make room for the DigiNow Bellypan setup). The Delta-Q charges quite slowly, so I don't keep an eye on it - I just leave it plugged in for 6 or 8 hours depending on how low the charge is.
When I charge with the DigiNow setup (6.6 kW) the fuel gauge doesn't really sync with the battery voltage - so I'll watch until the fuel gauge says 75-80%, but when I unplug the bike - the fuel gauge will jump up to 90-95% (but not always), but then it will creep back down 5-10%... I guess it's trying to analyze the actual charge(?). It's quite strange. I try to watch the voltage on the phone app for a more accurate idea of the battery charge.
Now that you ask that question I'll have to pay more attention next time I charge in the cold :-)
-
There's no question at all that battery performance drops in the cold. I'd argue that it's a somewhat self-limiting phenomenon....if the battery is cold, internal resistance is high, which would warm the battery up fairly fast. But again, I'm never going to say that cold doesn't reduce a battery's performance, because it absolutely does, very significantly.
But don't forget the effect of cold air on wind resistance. Cold air is much more dense than warm air (ask any pilot you know about that), so your aerodynamic drag goes up quite a bit when the temperature drops, as well. You require more watts to go a mile just when your battery isn't as capable of supplying watts as efficiently.
I've often wondered how much of the reduction in performance EVs see in the cold is caused by reduced battery performance, and how much is caused by increased drag. It would be an interesting study to see someone conduct.
-
I ride to my daughter's home on my Zero, at the same speeds, over the same distance, on the same route. It takes about 30% more battery power to do that ride when the temperature is 40 degrees F, compared with 60 degrees F.
-
I ride to my daughter's home on my Zero, at the same speeds, over the same distance, on the same route. It takes about 30% more battery power to do that ride when the temperature is 40 degrees F, compared with 60 degrees F.
Do you also notice a difference in your charge times? I don't mean on the display, as mine could say two hours to full but I am at full in around 50 minutes.
-Don- Auburn, CA (back home)
-
I ride to my daughter's home on my Zero, at the same speeds, over the same distance, on the same route. It takes about 30% more battery power to do that ride when the temperature is 40 degrees F, compared with 60 degrees F.
Do you also notice a difference in your charge times? I don't mean on the display, as mine could say two hours to full but I am at full in around 50 minutes.
-Don- Auburn, CA (back home)
I recharge at her home and then at my home when I return. The charge times after a 37-mile ride remain about 3 hours, but both my daughter's garage and mine are warmer than the ambient temperature during the winter by about 20 degrees. Thinking about it further, I wonder if the SOC display gets goofy during cold weather? ??? Cold temperatures also noticeably affect the display's estimate range.
-
I have never found that while riding in the cold, that internal heat from the battery offset the cooling effects of the weather significantly.
The only way I've found to keep performance up in the winter is a combination of:
- Charging at a reasonably high rate (above 0.4C but let's say 3-6kW) just before riding.
- Securing an insulating layer around the battery pack, light but breathable, to keep cold air and moisture from impacting the casing. I recommend 3mm (1/8") of neoprene for a wide variety of conditions, because it doesn't take much to insulate and you don't want to over-insulate.
The battery has reportedly (from logs) 7 temperature sensors and an ambient temperature sensor to rely on, but the effects on SoC are probably crude at best.
Even with the battery in perfect temperature conditions, cold and wet weather will still detract from range because of the increased air density and drag. Rain/precipitation is a literal impact force on the front of the bike. But with a layer over the battery, the reduction is much less than normal.