ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on July 13, 2014, 11:04:56 PM
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Yesterday I took a trip up to Streetbike in Birmingham (UK) to test ride their 2012 DS which they have as a demo. This follows my test ride on a 2013 S last year. I really couldn't justify the cost of a new Zero S last year. I tried, I really wanted one, but the numbers didn't work. We also had our baby on the way, so that really killed the idea of getting into £12,000 worth of debt. What's worse is that I put did a spreadsheet to work out the comparative cost of a season ticket on the train vs. commuting on my Aprilia Shiver. The train won hands down. I thought I was being a sensible Dad when I sold the Shiver. To cut a long story short, I bought a Fazer a few months ago and I am back to commuting on my bike. My wife tolerates it.
My interest in EV bikes persists. You may have seen me getting involved in this forum quite a lot recently. Now the 2012 models are getting more affordable, my mind is locked into trying to buy one. I'm trying to justify taking a bank loan over up to five years to finance both the purchase of a Zero and to clear the overdraft on my account. The Fazer is mostly to blame for being back in the red...
A season ticket on the train to work costs approx. £280 per month. A £7,500 loan will cost approx. £140 per month. I'd rather pay back the loan over 3 years but that's more like £220 per month, I think. Electricity will cost £20 per month. Is that enough justification on its own?
I want to keep the Fazer. Motorcycling is a hobby and in some aspects a way of life. Commuting isn't exactly the most fun to be had on a bike, but it does get me riding twice a day.
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Before I bought my Zero SR, I did a lot of ruminating and calculating...my situation is a lot simpler since I'm a single man, but I still don't like to waste money!
My conclusion was that the bike could theoretically pay for itself in about four years, assuming I do my daily commute (which Google maps says is about 45 miles but my odometer says is 50) on the bike instead of in the car at least four days a week, and that the IRS's allowable deduction for car mileage (currently $0.569 per mile) is fairly accurate, and maintenance for the bike is much, much lower than on the car.
I have to admit to being a bit skeptical of my own analysis, though. First, although it's hard to imagine the IRS being generous in any way, it's hard for me to believe it really costs $0.569 to drive a car for one mile, even if you do get all your maintenance done by a mechanic at shop rates. Second, without the bike I'd save the insurance cost -- it's not ridiculous but I still start off each month $60 behind. I also don't have any real access to numbers as far as maintenance on the bike...I can calculate tire changes and brake work, but I don't know how much running gear maintenance will run.
The bottom line, for me, is that it's hard to make a purely financial case for an electric bike, at least for the SR. Batteries are still just too expensive, volumes are too low to get into real economies of scale, and the purchase price is still too high to make up in a reasonable amount of time. I'm near the maximum commute you'd want to do daily without the power tank or midday charging, I live in San Diego so weather is very rarely an issue for me, and the payback period for me is going to be four years, even using what may be fairly friendly numbers.
But for me, it's not ALL about the financials. First, I'm a motorcycle guy, I'm GOING to own a motorcycle until I'm unable to ride any more -- the only question is which one. Second, I'm an environmentalist and I do feel good about doing something to help the planet. Third, I'm an EE and I definitely have a toy problem, so the electric bikes have a huge appeal for me. All of this makes me okay with the concept of being an early adopter, and paying a few (not all that many) extra bucks to help the market develop.
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Thanks for your reply Doug. What's an EE by the way?
There is a lot more to owning an electric for me also. I think I'll enjoy talking to people about it. It's about making a statement too. You need people riding around on them to make others think twice about the whole idea. I'm in no doubt at all that we will reach a tipping point with EVs in the next few years. They will become mainstream and people will wonder why we continued to drive ICE vehicles for so long.
I'd like to enjoy some of the benefits of electric before the government changes it's tax regime to recoup revenue lost from the tax on fuel.
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Thanks for your reply Doug. What's an EE by the way?
There is a lot more to owning an electric for me also. I think I'll enjoy talking to people about it. It's about making a statement too. You need people riding around on them to make others think twice about the whole idea. I'm in no doubt at all that we will reach a tipping point with EVs in the next few years. They will become mainstream and people will wonder why we continued to drive ICE vehicles for so long.
I'd like to enjoy some of the benefits of electric before the government changes it's tax regime to recoup revenue lost from the tax on fuel.
"EE" is an abbreviation for electrical engineer.
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I was in a similar situation, we had our first baby last August and a few months later I told my wife that I wanted a Zero. She didn't agree at all but I told her it was important for me as I would at last realize my dream of owning an electric vehicle. This dream started almost 20 years ago and had an effect in my career choice ( I'm an EE too). So I bought it even if she didn't agree. 7 months later she finally accepted it and went for a ride. She didn't like it that much but now the relation is back to normal when talking about my bike. By the way she didn't have to pay anything and I finished paying for it this summer.
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I can't really help in the payoff area. I bought my Zero this year because like most on this forum I have a disease that requires me to ride as therapy. Where I live in Canada I get to ride between the months of May and October and the two shoulder months are questionable sometimes. If I had to build a business case for the Zero purchase, I probably would not have it. I can say (as others would probably attest), the Zero is a great commuting motorcycle and I haven't necessarily figured out what specifically makes it like that. Maybe it is the clutch-less ride, the quick acceleration, smooth and quiet operation... I don't like to commute on one of my other machines as they perform better when I am touring a long way from home.
As far as advise for the wife, mine has accepted that I am a more sane person when I can ride (as therapy).
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Bonkers,
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. A 2012 Zero isn't necessarily the best bike to buy if you want a reliable commuter. You might be unlucky - as some of us on this forum have been - and end up with a bike that spends quite a bit of its time not working. Then you've got your monthly train fares and the repayments on the bike, or riding the Fazer which you have anyway (and repayments on the Zero). If you need help convincing your wife that this is a good idea, and the Zero goes pear-shaped, where does that leave you?
If you can buy a Zero outright and can live with the money tied up in it if it's not working, then fine. If not, think hard about it. How far are you from Birmingham when you have to get the Zero to the dealer if it breaks down?
Electric motorcycles are here to stay. Your baby's only small once.
my 2 bob
Peter
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I can say (as others would probably attest), the Zero is a great commuting motorcycle and I haven't necessarily figured out what specifically makes it like that. Maybe it is the clutch-less ride, the quick acceleration, smooth and quiet operation... I don't like to commute on one of my other machines as they perform better when I am touring a long way from home.
Hear hear. There's just something that's so RIGHT about EVs, and it's a little bit hard to explain it to someone who hasn't experienced it. My best guess is that driving/riding an EV makes you realize how badly an ICE vehicle has to be compromised to account for the fact that an ICE offers 0 torque at 0 rpm (i.e., can't run at low speeds). We've all dealt with clutches and torque converters all our driving lives, but when your vehicle doesn't need either because it's perfectly happy "running" at 0 rpm, you begin to realize what a PITA they are. When you think about it, which vehicle WOULD seem more natural: one which cannot run at 0 rpm and therefore requires a clutch or torque converter to accommodate stopping, or one that produces maximum torque at 0 rpm and is fine being in gear and engaged when at a full stop?
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Today I rode my Zero FX across town to my shop. Arriving there I get on my Royal Enfield to ride to a vintage bike meet. After the vintage meet, and riding the Enfield back to my shop, it felt fantastic to get back on the FX and ride back home! Oh, and the FX didn't need a warm up period.
When I got on the FX and was about to twist the throttle I was thinking; "OH YEAH!
Trikester
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Thanks to you all. This is such a great forum and a real credit to all it's members.
I think Peter makes some very valid points. The whole idea would backfire badly if the bike didn't prove to be reliable, especially as Streetbike are about 110 miles away and I don't have a trailer or space to keep one. Justin's old 2012 S has just had a new motor fitted. Besides that issue which is now fixed, he reports that it ran well and I think his 4.5k miles were trouble-free.
I'm treating this whole thing as a project and next on the list is to make a pros and cons list. I'll see how that goes down with my wife.
I'm afraid I took the attitude that it's easier to seek forgiveness than gain permission when it came to buying the Fazer. It would be a massive piss-take if I pulled that one again. At least I got the bad boy bike first so I'll push the fact that the Zero is like a 250 cc. I won't be able to open the taps and hit 110 on the dual carriageway when the mood takes me. In fact it'll encourage a whole different style of riding that'll be more in tune with the advanced motorcycling training I'm getting at the moment.
I am also infected by that disease that means I want to ride at every opportunity. It would make far more sense to commute on the train; less time door to door, no faffing with all the gear, maintenance etc and time to read too! Not mentioning the safety issues of course. Many bikers wouldn't dream of commuting to London every day.
Watch this space! :-)
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They say a week is a long time in politics and indeed it has been for me since my last post on this topic.
There just seems to be no way of convincing my wife that spending £6,000 on another motorbike is a sensible thing to do. And of course she's right, it isn't. No matter how much I'm interested, nay obsessed, by the whole concept, it falls on deaf ears. I might have a leg to stand on if I had the cash and there weren't better potential uses for it. The trouble is that I would have to borrow the money, pay interest on it and burden myself with more monthly payments for at least three years. Damn it!
My wife's not dumb either, she recruited some big guns in the form of one of my closest friends. He's concerned about me not listening to my wife's wishes and threatened to end our friendship if I went ahead with it all. That's a message that's clear enough to penetrate even my thick gadget fever crazed skull!
You might find it interesting that in the meantime I'd got in touch with Streetbike with an idea to loan/rent the bike for an extended test. Jason was willing to run with it and I was planning to pick up the bike, use it for a couple of weeks on my commute and make a purchase decision based on that. Now if that isn't amazing customer service I don't know what is! There's no point in doing that now though as I'd just be taking advantage of their goodwill. I will drop a line to Jason declining his very generous offer later today or by the end of the week at the latest.
I may have to admit defeat in this battle, but I'm not going to kill the dream.
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Sorry to hear that logic and rational thought have won out over emotion and exhilaration.
Regarding commuting into a big city, I ride into NYC about 3x per week and it's great on an electric motorcycle. No gears means all of my focus is on (1) the highway traffic then (2) on the taxis that are trying to kill me. Been doing this for years with great comfort.
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I might have a leg to stand on if I had the cash and there weren't better potential uses for it. The trouble is that I would have to borrow the money, pay interest on it and burden myself with more monthly payments for at least three years.
Again, I'm a single guy, so my story is different, but I decided to buy a Zero a couple of years ago, and started saving my pennies. I was drooling over the S, and sometime in the fall of 2013, I'd saved up nearly enough to pay cash for it. I went to the local dealer (Rocket Motorcycles in San Diego) to discuss the exact out-the-door price, and he said that there were no S's available any more, and there wouldn't be until the 2014's came out. He told me they'd be announcing them sometime near the end of October.
So the day they announced the 2014's, I checked the website, and lo and behold there was a new bike which had a more powerful motor controller. Long story short, I put my deposit down on my lunch hour that same day, and near the end of January I took delivery of what may be the first SR delivered to the public.
Start saving. It may take a while, but if you can ultimately pay cash for the bike out of your pocket money, if you prove that you're that determined and disciplined, if it's not going to affect the family budget, how can your wife say no?
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Again, I'm a single guy, so my story is different,
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if it's not going to affect the family budget, how can your wife say no?
This made me laugh.
Get back to us on this after you've been married for a few years. ;)
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Again, I'm a single guy, so my story is different,
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if it's not going to affect the family budget, how can your wife say no?
This made me laugh.
Get back to us on this after you've been married for a few years. ;)
+1 LOL
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Get back to us on this after you've been married for a few years. ;)
Since I'm 52 yo and it hasn't happened yet, don't hold your breath. I'm just not the marrying kind.
That said, I'm not completely oblivious to the usual couple issues. Okay, I should have worded it differently: "If you take YOUR pocket money, save it up, and point out that you won't affect the family budget, you'll have a much stronger case and your chances of not being veto'ed will be much higher."
How's that?
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My 2 cents on this debate: your wife and child are more important than any motorcycle, and I am an admitted motorcycle junkie as well as a husband and Dad.
Life is about choices and deciding to be a husband and a Dad will involve sacrifice.
Sell your gasser and buy a Zero or forget about it. Work overtime or save the money, don't finance it.
Put your wife and kid's future first and pay for your motorcycle addiction with cash.
I had a Zero DS as my only motorcycle for a season and it satisfied 90% of my motorcycle needs and desires and a year later I added a cheap gasser to the stable with cash for the rest.
There are always deals to find on Zeros if you are patient and have cash. Your wife should outlast any motorcycle you buy so don't fight her on it.
My 2 cents, full face value.
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I take my proverbial hat off to you all! Great words of wisdom that make me feel a lot better. I'm glad we've had a bit of fun over it too. I've suffered a setback but I know my sub-conscious will bubble away and bring some new ideas to the surface. Rational thought and practicalities may win in the short term. I hope to repost to this topic in the future and tell you how the story plays out. Thank you all for such kind words of encouragement, brutal honesty and good humour. [emoji4]
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pay for your motorcycle addiction with cash
This was the compromise that I worked out with my wife. I had to pay cash for the bike. I made monthly deposits into a savings account (on the order of a bike payment - about $300/mo) for a few years. I also put any annual state/federal tax refunds into the EV savings account. It seems like a long time when you want a new toy, but in retrospect it didn't seem that long - and the feeling of being able to tell the salesman that you won't be applying for a loan? Priceless :-)
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- and the feeling of being able to tell the salesman that you won't be applying for a loan? Priceless :-)
Agreed. Instead of getting a cashier's check, when my bike arrived, I actually withdrew cash from the bank (I alerted them the day before) and took it to the dealer in my tablet case. It was fun.
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Agreed. Instead of getting a cashier's check, when my bike arrived, I actually withdrew cash from the bank (I alerted them the day before) and took it to the dealer in my tablet case. It was fun.
Aw man, shoulda' bought a cheap briefcase and just gave it to them with the cash inside! That'd be worth $20 for the story!
Bonkers, sorry to hear you lost this battle, but sounds like it was in the best interest of peace. Just think of it this way - if you set the dream aside for a year or three, imagine the progress that they'll make with the machines in that time! You may get double the power and twice the range as reward for your patience!
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Good plan Oobflyer.
Cash always helps you get a better deal. Dealers want to move bikes and when you start pulling out C Notes the sales guys all know they can move a bike now, today, and they want that to happen.
MostlyBonkers, this EV thing is just getting started. Every year the new ones get better, more powerful, longer range. Every year there are more last year's models on the used market. Every year when the new ones are announced the dealers and Manufacturers put in place incentives to move the old ones that are left off the floor. Time is working with you here.
Build cash, be patient. Electric bikes are the future and every year there will be more to choose from in both the new and used market.
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My 2 cents on this debate: your wife and child are more important than any motorcycle, and I am an admitted motorcycle junkie as well as a husband and Dad.
Life is about choices and deciding to be a husband and a Dad will involve sacrifice.
Sell your gasser and buy a Zero or forget about it. Work overtime or save the money, don't finance it.
Put your wife and kid's future first and pay for your motorcycle addiction with cash.
I had a Zero DS as my only motorcycle for a season and it satisfied 90% of my motorcycle needs and desires and a year later I added a cheap gasser to the stable with cash for the rest.
There are always deals to find on Zeros if you are patient and have cash. Your wife should outlast any motorcycle you buy so don't fight her on it.
My 2 cents, full face value.
can support this in the other direction :)
I own a 1971 DJ5B (postal jeep), and I'll never get rid of it because it's awesome :) for the family car, it's always been whatever fit well... silverado, olds delta 88, and the one vehicle my wife agreed to buy new. a 2010 wrangler 4 door. everybody fit, it was offroadable, kids loved it, went on many fishing trips with everybody along for the ride, just a really nice all around family vehicle.
after our 4th child was born, not enough seats... bought an old mark 3 van, and the new jeep just became my work/play vehicle, and got reduced to "toy" status. at $30K, getting 11mpg, on $1,500 tires, it was just no longer reasonable, not for a "toy status" vehicle, so I traded it for a zero. Still pretty fun, but with trade, reduction of insurance, and gas, that thing is paying me. I ride it everywhere. rain, desert windstorms, triple digit heat... bring it on... every mile puts more money in the budget :)
occasionally, I miss my jeep, but I still have the old one, and I can afford college for the oldest :) maybe when she's left and off on her own the van can get traded for something fun again, but for now, I'm not paying for gas, and my wife and kids are worth it :)
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aelwero -- very good points, I have to say my daily driver is a 98 jeep wrangler and I wont get ride of it :)
"Cash always helps you get a better deal. " Has anyone actually got a better deal on a Zero? I have offered $16000 cash for a zeroSR at 2 places and was a no go
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"Cash always helps you get a better deal. " Has anyone actually got a better deal on a Zero? I have offered $16000 cash for a zeroSR at 2 places and was a no go
One more data point: I was paying cash, I tried the same thing (2 kbucks, then just 1!) and it was a no-go. Couldn't even get him to throw in a new helmet....I did get a new pair of gloves. Either there just aren't any discounts to be had (at least in my area) or I REALLY suck at negotiation.
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Most Zero dealers are selling all of their stock now. They don't need to discount, especially on new and popular models like the SR during the prime riding season.
The time to get a deal on a Zero is when the next year model buzz is out and the dealer has a last year model on the floor still. Or during a winter snow storm.