ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: rightleft22 on October 21, 2014, 07:13:00 PM
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How are people’s experiences of Zero support for those early adapters who purchases a 2011 or 2012 bike?
I have a 2011 and feel that I’m a good ambassador for Zero, being friendly and answering questions where ever I take the bike. However lately I feel like I’ve been left out in the cold.
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Zero support? No idea, that's my dealers job. ;)
My dealer has been excellent to me.
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When I first bought my 2012 S and had a couple of minor issues, Zero came to my home and picked up my bike, took it to the factory and made the repair. Then they did the same thing with the encoder programming upgrade. Now if I have any issues, my dealer takes care of it and if they can't (like when my 2014 S power tank wasn't working), Zero sends a technician to the dealer's service shop and performs corrective work there. Since the power tank problem, I haven't had any issues that needed to be resolved.
My daughter has my old 2012 S and ever since the encoder recall, the bike has run reliably and without any performance issues. It now has about 10K miles on the clock. However, the tail light assembly had to be repaired when the supporting bracket failed and various plastic rivets that hold the plastic together keep falling out, but both of these problems were easily corrected with hand tools, a few hardware store parts and a little time and did not need the assistance of Zero support.
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My dealer has been able to take care of everything pretty quickly for my 2012 Zero S. Although most of my visits were for upgrades rather than support. It really depends on the dealer and how well they communicate with Zero.
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my experience has been a frikkin nightmare. my 2012 has been broke almost as long as it has run. it has just over 13k miles. the main problem is i live far from any dealer. the bike is now at the nearest dealer which just opened up, 4 hours away. it's been there over 10 days and they still don't know what is wrong with it. A friend of mine at work was going to buy one but I convinced him not to.
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I had good experiences with the work of my dealer.
I think it is important for Zero to have a good dealer network.
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I've owned a 2010 DS, a 2012 DS and a 2013 FX. My experiences with Zero support have all been good. In 2010 all support had to be directly with the factory because they didn't have any dealers. I bought the bike factory direct and when support was needed they had a local rep in my area who would deliver the parts or they would ship them to me and either I would do the work or the rep would. Once they developed dealers they no longer had local reps but then Hollywood Electrics and Harlan came on the scene so my good service experience has continued. Of course, I bitch about what should be a 45 minute drive (hauling my bike) taking two hours (LA area traffic). ;)
Trikester
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I bought my 2012 when Zero was selling them through the NorCal Mastercraft dealerships (a boat/jet ski company). They knew absolutely nothing about electric bikes.
When I bought the bike no one there gave me any 'orientation' on the thing - when I asked how to plug-in to charge they just shrugged their shoulders. I finally found the port and the LED lights myself.
When I took it back to them for the "glitch" firmware update they installed the wrong firmware (an older version instead of a new version), which made things worse.
It was probably a smart move for Zero to stop selling bikes through NorCal Mastercraft.
Now if I need service I take it to the factory. It's a two-hour drive to trailer it there, but at least they now what they're doing. My only complaint about the service at the factory is that they are too busy making new bikes to spend time on the older bikes. They kept my bike for a couple of months last year - just to do some basic checks and update the firmware, etc.
To end on a positive note - I now have over 15K miles on my 2012 ZF9 and it runs perfectly - like brand new.
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Here in Swiss support is very bad... or maybe I have to say that there's no support!
It'a about one year that I'm asking a complete check of my 2012 Zero DS (that had two smashes) and I'm still waiting even for the dealer to come for at least the firmware update.
Hopefully, out of the low quality parts the engine doesn't need a lot of maintenence so I can drive even with broken parts, but still is not funny nor safe.
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so almost one month my bike has been at the dealer, and they still have no answer for me, and can't duplicate the faults. Says they are have difficulty coordinating with the engineers at zero for the internet hook up so they can see it at the plant. WHAT THE FRUKK?!
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Hello,
How to know the version of firmware of zero S 2012 ?
when i turn on the lcd display u7 2011 ?
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I'm not sure the dash display lists the bikes firmware (although arguably it should)
To get your firmware revision, as far as I know, you need to plug a computer into the bike and log onto its onboard computer. Doing this requires the special cable, so is not easy for an owner to do.
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For an island with a population of over 60 million, we have one mainstream bike dealer that has an arrangement with Zero to act as the UK service centre. The staff there are brilliant, as per Justin's comment. Zero really need to do more in the UK though. So much potential!
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What FW do you want to know?
The BMS, MBB or the Sevcon.
Actually you have 3 ways to connect your 2012. The OBD II connector if you look from the steering head under the "tank" you will see it. There is CAN Open towards the Sevcon and a "TTL 3.3V RS232" for the MBB.
Behind the rubber cap at the front of your Battery-Pack there is a connector for complete information from BMS.
I am not 100% sure - didn't find a log of my 2012DS at the moment- if you could get all FW from the RS232 at the ODB II! For sure you get some infos of BMS at this connection.
BTW even if you possess a 3.3V USB to RS232 you need a password to get the information.
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I had very bad experiences in the beginning with both a 2012 XU and a 2013 DS, including an almost one year down time.
I would say it all depends on
- luck - some bikes seem to have less issues than others
- place - close to the Zero factory or a great dealer (unfortunaterly most of them are not, and the contract between Zero and the dealers forces dealer to pay for many consequences of Zero issues, meaning that they'll end up forcing you to pay for them)
- method - the best thing happen to
a) Discuss to your dealer and make it clear that you expect the bike fixed, the costs (of course if it is related to a faulty bike) paid for by them (like driving the briken bike to the dealer..). You are also entitled for a replacement bike.
b) If nothing moves, contact directly the Zero country manager (you'll find its name through linkedin or google)
c) If nothing move, eascalate higher at Zero
- time (hopefull) - there seem to be a new director for quality at Zero. Let's hope he will change this
And of course keep us posted. The best help you can give both to Zero and the users community is contributing to a flawless service. For this issues need to be treated, not to be hidden.
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Perhaps the real weak link is the lack of dealer technician training in electric motorcycles. If you are a competent and qualified service technician on IC motorcycles, trying to learn how to repair this new EV technology is no doubt quite a challenge. A few techs can probably learn how to do it, but I bet most really struggle with the concept. I have been servicing my IC motorcycles for over 50 years and I wouldn't have a clue what to do if my Zero stopped running. Somehow Zero needs to set up a factory training program for their dealer service techs and provide a funding method for that training. I think that is what is behind many of the problems that some people have had with their bikes.
I note that my 2014 Zero S (built in December 2013), once its power tank issue was resolve by a Zero tech, has been running perfectly ever since. There appears to be nothing wrong with Zero's design, just the occasional assembly or component glitch that can be really hard to diagnose for someone who is not familiar with the technology.
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I emailed Brammo on this issue and they seemed open to the concept but I cant really discuss our conversation. I didn't bother to contact Zero since they are a "no service necessary company" no that's not a real quote but you know what I mean.
ICE bikes do have electric motors (starters, alternators) and PC interfaced ECUs that any professional tech should be familiar with so its not an inconceivable stretch. Ive been watching and studying the EV evolution in motorcycles for well over ten years and my Grandfather (now 96 going on 97 years old) has been building electric bicycles as long as I remember so perhaps my perspective is off but don't underestimate the grease monkeys!
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Having a service Manual would be a big help, every motorbike I Have owned I have been able to purchase or download for free service manuals.
Downloading manual and forum support was one of my reasons of purchasing my SV650S.
Not even a service manual for the mechanical parts of the bike :( but we all know that is basic to fix.
We should at least be able to fault find to module level, every device has an inbuilt processor and must have its own diagnostics.
Digital mulitmeters ($30) are cheap and even digital oscilloscopes ($400) are not expensive these days.
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So my 2012 S ZF9 has recently stopped working with the 2:4 flashing warning. I suspect the BMS corrosion issue is the cause. I purchased the bike ex demo with 1300 dry dealer miles on the clock in May 2014 and have added only around 2000 miles to that. The bike was first registered by the dealer in 2012 (and they are no longer a dealer).
Here in the UK, the only service centre is now Street bike in Birmingham. I called and spoke with Roger who was very helpful. However, Zero have indicated to him that the bike is no longer under warranty.
I'm taking the bike up next weekend for them to take a look at and I'll keep you posted.
So while Street bike have been great and I love the bike itself, Zero's stance so far is less than reassuring. I'm hoping to make some progress once the bike is with Street bike and they can provide Zero with more information.
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Just check and make sure all recall work has been done. This is safety issue and has no time limit.
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Mike,
In this case, you are in presence of a known issue, aka 'hidden defect' well documented here through users testimonies. Whatever the warranty terms are you have national level & european level regulation protecting you and, of course, you're entitled to a repair, and can have all the cost paid for by Zero. First step would be to ask it politely. Second step would be to escalate internally. Third step would be to sue.
V
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That's good advice. Cheers.
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Having a service Manual would be a big help, every motorbike I Have owned I have been able to purchase or download for free service manuals.
We should at least be able to fault find to module level, every device has an inbuilt processor and must have its own diagnostics.
Digital mulitmeters ($30) are cheap and even digital oscilloscopes ($400) are not expensive these days.
+1
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They don't want people working on the controller batt etc because of the risk of shock from controller or batteries granted if your careful they are safe I mean I was a big stereo guy before I really started tinkering with the fx I'm not scared of burning down a car so eh a bike little stuff lol
Before backseats
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/41E67FD2-A88C-45FD-B8AC-9AB5EDD365ED-92218-00000A760646DEA1_zpsb59d0c72.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/41E67FD2-A88C-45FD-B8AC-9AB5EDD365ED-92218-00000A760646DEA1_zpsb59d0c72.jpg.html)
Totally forgot about the electric car too
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o237/SC1975Silent/2012-08-09_15-22-30_320-2.jpg) (http://s121.photobucket.com/user/SC1975Silent/media/2012-08-09_15-22-30_320-2.jpg.html)
[/img]
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Like you, I wonder what support is going to be like for my 2012, especially now that it's out of warranty. Two dealers I've worked with were able to perform recall updates on the electronics (with Zero's help possibly), but for a persistent front fork issue I had to get involved more than I would have liked (it ultimately was fixed however).
If you have a competent dealer close by that is bullish on electric motorcycles, then you are probably OK. But since there is no dealer near me any longer (and I live in Houston, 4th largest city in the US), I find Zeros hard to recommend to Joe average motorcyclist unless that person is also an EV geek.
It's too bad, too, because I generally feel Zero has a good product (especially in the 2015 models where the components have been upgraded). But they have to get more of their dealers knowledgeable and comfortable with the tech, and work out whatever communication and other issues exist between them and those dealers, before they will become mainstream.
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I've updated the thread on my current BMS/battery issue at http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4123.msg26242#msg26242 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4123.msg26242#msg26242)
It seems I need to find £3950 for a replacement battery which has seemingly failed after only 3500 miles.
In the brief time I have had the bike, so many people have been interested in it and consequently the 'electric revolution'. But this issue will simply play into the hands of those that scoff at the idea of ever replacing ICE. If a leading e-bike manufacturer such as Zero is not prepared to go the extra mile, they are letting the whole side down. If that's the case, it is perhaps better they move over and let someone else carry the torch...
I've asked for the BMS to be replaced and am hoping then for small miracle.... or a change of heart from Zero.
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I'm on the same page , these are extremely expensive machines and either the manufacturer needs to stand behind them or set up proper channels to get problems resolved quickly if they arise, I'm in love with the bikes (I've only just recently ridden a brammo) but feel the risk is too high to spend such a large chunk of cash on, it seems to me zeros apparent lack of customer service and brammo clearing out bikes without word on why or if they will even be around next year is too much of a gamble , most people work hard for what they have and deserve prompt resolutions from a company they have put their faith and money into
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Follow up
After some great help from my dealership Zero agreed to fix the issues I was having under warranty. (I purchased the new 2011 in 2013)
It was a fight though.
It would be great is Zero offered a way to rebuild the batteries at a reasonable cost. Until they do I can't recommend the purchase of a zero bike to anyone that does not have a technical/mechanical background.
I think the success of Zero will be greatly influenced by the community, those who 'signed' on first
"The Law of the Few", or, as Malcolm Gladwell states, "The success of any kind of social epidemic is heavily dependent on the involvement of people with a particular and rare set of social gifts".[3] According to Malcolm Gladwell, economists call this the "80/20 Principle, which is the idea that in any situation roughly 80 percent of the 'work' will be done by 20 percent of the participants" (see Pareto Principle).[4] These people are described in the following ways: Connectors, Mavens, Persuaders.
I do not think that Zero has done a great job in working with the community.
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rightleft22 — checking on how the process went working to get your issue resolved with your Zero motorcycle.
Your original post on this topic (Zero Support) was on: October 21, 2014.
Your recent post where you mentioned potential resolution of it was today, January 27, 2015.
That is a 3 month + 1 week period for the problem...where was the majority of the delay for it taking so long ??
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my 2012 broke down last year, was a month before i could get it to he dealer, a 5 hour drive. It's been there almost 4 months now.my 2010 ds has been sitting 2 months now waiting for a new mbb dealer is supposed to send me. zero sucks
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I'm on the same page , these are extremely expensive machines and either the manufacturer needs to stand behind them or set up proper channels to get problems resolved quickly if they arise, I'm in love with the bikes (I've only just recently ridden a brammo) but feel the risk is too high to spend such a large chunk of cash on, it seems to me zeros apparent lack of customer service and brammo clearing out bikes without word on why or if they will even be around next year is too much of a gamble , most people work hard for what they have and deserve prompt resolutions from a company they have put their faith and money into
I think there is a significant difference in the customer support for bikes made before 2012 and after 2013. It seems that the customer service for 2013+ is significantly improved. Probably because that is when they moved to a different battery voltage, motor and other components. It is my understanding that the risk is significantly lower if you purchase a 2013+ bike.
This doesn't diminish the pain of the few, and Zero has more room for improvement.
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I suspect they are struggling to get the parts for the 2012 and earlier models.
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I have been very fortunate to never have any problems with my 2011 X. Well outside of the overheating I experience on the race track but I am exceeding it's original purpose. I no longer have a local dealer though. My nearest dealer is about 500 miles away. I recently ordered some parts for my 2011 from a dealer in another state and I am surprised and happy to say they showed up. These were 2010/2011 specific parts. Some sprockets and a Y quick charging cable. Apparently Zero now has a parts ordering system in place for the dealers. In the past I could not get any parts for my 2011 so hopefully this is a positive change. I figure mostly I am on my own for my 2011 if I have issues. I will keep using it and enjoying it until one day this battery dies. Then who knows.
C
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I had terrible service from the "dealership" where I bought my 2012 ZF9 - but the dealership was NorCal Mastercraft - primarily a watersports dealerships (boats, jet skis, etc.) I could clearly see that the folks at this dealership were not interested in motorcycles at all, let alone electric motorcycles. The salesman, the mechanic, the manager - all had the same attitude ("oh no - here comes that electric motorcycle guy again").
Zero cut ties with them - as they should have.
The closest dealership to me now is Contra Costa Power Sports in Concord, CA - an actual motorcycle dealership. I talked to the salesmen and manager there about my previous experience and my hesitation to buy another electric motorcycle. They reassured me that they are very excited about the electric bikes. The manager said that their mechanics have already learned about the Zero bikes and they will receive more training and support from Zero as needed.
Also - the new bikes are selling like crazy :-)
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Just realised I hadn't tied off my comments on this thread. My Zero S ZF9 was fitted with a new battery and BMS over Christmas and returned to me from Holland in the New Year. And this free of charge, courtesy of an intervention from Umberto Uccelli, CEO Europe. So of course I am delighted and with the excellent service from Streetbike (Birmingham UK) feel that the problem was dealt with professionally, even if after some negotiation. I am keen to see Zero return to the UK, hopefully providing the same level of support they have afforded me on this occasion.
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That's great news Mike. I'm glad it all got sorted in the end. Thanks for letting us know.
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I agree. It is good to hear positive stories about Zero's customer service. :)
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Just realised I hadn't tied off my comments on this thread. My Zero S ZF9 was fitted with a new battery and BMS over Christmas and returned to me from Holland in the New Year. And this free of charge, courtesy of an intervention from Umberto Uccelli, CEO Europe. So of course I am delighted and with the excellent service from Streetbike (Birmingham UK) feel that the problem was dealt with professionally, even if after some negotiation. I am keen to see Zero return to the UK, hopefully providing the same level of support they have afforded me on this occasion.
Bloody good news mate!
Streetbike themselves are also damn fine dealers. Even though they are not my closest dealer, they are rapidly becoming my go to dealer. Its worth traveling for the service there. Which reminds me, I need new over pants... :)
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Like mikeisted, I bought my 2012 S in the middle of last year from a dealer. It had been used as a demo bike and only had 2000 miles on it. Because it was 2 years old the warranty had just expired.
Within my first 100 miles I started getting the power loss glitch, possibly because I was riding it and leaving it out in the rain for the first time. The firmware update and a new BMS board under recall reduced the impact of the power loss but didn't stop it.
After another 3 weeks at Streebike here in the UK and dozens of e-mails to Zero, I have finally conceded to Zero's "more than reasonable" offer (their words; definitely not mine!) to discount the price of the new motor and new MBB board by 25%. I haven't had a positive experience with Zero, despite Aaron Cheatham, Zero's "Director of Customer Experience" <aaron@zeromotorcycles.com> indicating that we would be able to come to an agreeable resolution. The most insulting part is Zero's argument that the bike's previous use as a demo and having been ridden in Canada will reduce its life. Like that justifies it failing at less than 2500 miles!
$2100 later, the only silver lining is that Zero say they have very recently redesigned the 2012 motor. They are providing me with a hybrid motor based on the 2013 design. If they did their job correctly this time, the motor won't fail before its 1 year part warranty is up! At this point, I'm not holding my breath.
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over 5 months in the shop and still not fixed
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The lack of commitment by Zero for their earlier model-year products is irritating to hear about, and I'm sure it's infuriating to endure through.
It sounds like it would take a mechanical magician to keep one of the pre-2013 Zero's running for the 'long-haul'; 5 months in the shop is way too long.
Seems as if ownership and management at Zero thinking that this is a short term venture for them; IMO Not the "all-in" commitment from a top brand.
Why provide good customer service to promote good will with the early adopters and tech enthusiasts when they will purchase their products anyways ??
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I wonder how the 100 2012 Zeros sold to Bogota, Columbia and the 57 2012 Zeros sold to Hong Kong are doing? ???
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One can only imagine the level service that would be provided, based on reports from neglected customers we hear about.
With minimal technical documentation available, the best approach for learning/knowing what to check and/or correct is word-of-mouth guidance from the factory personnel to mechanics working on the bikes. In the Bay Area, it seems that decent customer service is provided with a good level of technical support. However, the further away from their home area and with the very real possibility of language barriers, it would take an electrical/mechanical magician to keep one of the earlier model year machines running.
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In mass they are required to provide a service manual for everything sold including electric, wonder how it works for someone it thoes states?
Tesla had to give up theirs... Wouldn't zero too, or does it come after you sign a non disclosure.
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Cortezdtv can you elaborate on that? Do you mean that for Zeros owned in Massachusetts, Zero are obliged to provide a service manual? Reason I ask is as I live in Massachusetts, and our 2012 Zero's warranty is about to expire. And the snow's finally melting, so it will get some use again. Haven't been able to ride since New Year's eve.
"Earlier year machines"- there are still some new 2012 Zeros for sale - e.g. http://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2012-Zero-DS-ZF6-112872853 (http://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2012-Zero-DS-ZF6-112872853) - shouldn't require a magician to keep one running should it (to clarify - I'm not disagreeing with MotoRyder here, just raising the expectations problem again).
Peter
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Cortezdtv can you elaborate on that? Do you mean that for Zeros owned in Massachusetts, Zero are obliged to provide a service manual? Reason I ask is as I live in Massachusetts, and our 2012 Zero's warranty is about to expire. And the snow's finally melting, so it will get some use again. Haven't been able to ride since New Year's eve.
"Earlier year machines"- there are still some new 2012 Zeros for sale - e.g. http://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2012-Zero-DS-ZF6-112872853 (http://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2012-Zero-DS-ZF6-112872853) - shouldn't require a magician to keep one running should it (to clarify - I'm not disagreeing with MotoRyder here, just raising the expectations problem again).
Peter
Yes, I beleive if you live there you may be able to get your hands on a copy, I was talking to a friend about it yesterday actually!! I made the point that all of us do, without a service manual people can't worknon their own stuff etc etc; he told me about tesla having to give up the manual to owners; slightly a mute point if it comes with a non disclosure imo
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Thanks. I'll see what I can find out. A manual would certainly be a help. Not that I know much about electrickery - other than to try to keep the smoke inside the wires.
Peter
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Seems the MA "right to repair" law excludes motorcycles:
“Motor vehicleâ€, a vehicle, originally manufactured for distribution and sale in the United States, driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads and highways, but excluding:... blah blah... and (vii) a motorcycle, as defined in section 1 of chapter 90.
from - http://massrighttorepair.com/about/2013-right-to-repair-law/ (http://massrighttorepair.com/about/2013-right-to-repair-law/)
ah well
Peter
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Ugh. That's like the Florida lemon law here excludes motorcycles as well.
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Seems the MA "right to repair" law excludes motorcycles:
“Motor vehicleâ€, a vehicle, originally manufactured for distribution and sale in the United States, driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads and highways, but excluding:... blah blah... and (vii) a motorcycle, as defined in section 1 of chapter 90.
from - http://massrighttorepair.com/about/2013-right-to-repair-law/ (http://massrighttorepair.com/about/2013-right-to-repair-law/)
ah well
Peter
Wow I'm stunned
That " Law" leaves a lot of room Ive gone through a lot trying to register "" motor vehicles" here in California from the earliest zeros to the latest zeros, and everything in between...
To me as soon as they say motor vehicle any motorized contraption is included that was one of the main points every highway patrol ever told me so I'm completely stunned this suddenly motorcycles are left out of that Massachusetts bill. I also believe it won't last because motorcycles will have to be adopted into it because you own a zero in Massachusetts I guarantee if you were to raise a big enough stink you would get a manual when Tesla had to turn over there's there probably wasn't that many electric motorcycles out there.
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As far as I know there are NO "paper" Zero service manuals.
Dealerships do have access to "on line" service manuals for "most" model years..
To provide this access to the general public would require setting up a username password and most likely an NDA type agreement. I am pretty sure that Zero will not go there (currently).
I was working on a troubleshooting flowchart while there and hopefully some of the documents I generated have been handed onto the next person tasked with this endeavor.
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Yep, the online application that the dealers use is a Salesforce "cloud" application and each dealer has a user and password. I've had to help my local dealer's parts person figure out how to use it.
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Yep, the online application that the dealers use is a Salesforce "cloud" application and each dealer has a user and password. I've had to help my local dealer's parts person figure out how to use it.
You work at Oracle, yet you use scare-quotes around the word 'cloud' and criticize a hardware startup company for not providing a service manual. As someone in the software industry who's interacted with Oracle from the outside, your general crankiness on this topic seems kind of hypocritical. Of course, I don't know where in the sprawling Oracle behemoth you work, but that company does not have a reputation for providing economical services or reliable products.
Also, sympathy for the startup situation might not come naturally to an Oracle employee.
I'm just saying that I don't find your rhetorical position on Zero to deserve as much credence as you presume.
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[TL;DR deleted]
I don't care what you think. I want my service manual.