ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on January 08, 2015, 11:57:54 PM
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Hi All,
Inspired by the topic and discussion on storing Zeros over winter, I decided to do some research and have written the following article as a result. I welcome any comments and hope that people will find it useful.
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Lithium Ion (Li-ion) Batteries used in Zero Motorcyles - all you need to know.
I've never really understood Li-ion battery technology properly before and as it turns out, I had some of the key facts wrong in my mind until very recently. Since the battery pack is by far the most expensive component in an electric vehicle, it is worthwhile having a basic understanding of the technology. I hope the reader finds that a few minutes spent reading these notes is time well spent.
Top Tips
1. If you run your bike to empty, do your best to give it at least a partial charge (ideally to 40-50%) as soon as you can.
2. Charge and discharge your bike freely and at your convenience.
3. Don't worry about keeping the bike topped up, like standard car batteries.
4. Don't feel you have to run the bike to empty before re-charging, it's fine to charge if you've only used 10%, for example.
5. If you can afford extra chargers to reduce charging time, Zero's fast chargers won't hurt the batteries.
6. Use the bike as much as you can. If you aren't using it for a regular commute or aren't lucky enough to have the freedom to ride regularly then it will work out a lot cheaper to own a conventional motorbike.
7. Zero's engineer's have done the work to ensure a long service life from their battery packs and have backed it up with a five year warranty with the 2014 model range onwards. That should be enough to drop any anxiety you may have and just concentrate on enjoying the bike.
I trust those tips are enough to put your mind at rest. Please read on as you may find the rest of this article of interest.
Battery Chemistry and Manufacturer
The current manufacturer is Farsis who are supplying cells for the 2014 & 2015 model range.
The chemistry used is Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt: LiNiMnCoO2 (NMC) - Also know as NCM, CMN, CNM, MNC and MCN.
NMC is a relatively new battery chemistry which differs from the Li-cobalt chemistry we are familiar with from mobile phone batteries and laptops. While Li-cobalt has a higher energy density than NMC (storage capacity per kilogram), it doesn't cycle as well and ages quicker. That's fine for a mobile phone that is likely to be obsolete after 2-3 years, but not for an electric bike.
The automotive grade NMC cells that Farasis supply should easily satisfy the requirements of the five year warranty that Zero are providing with their current Z-Force battery packs. From what I have read, I would expect them to last 8-10 years if they aren't abused. Even if you start to notice some significant deterioration after five years, the rate at which battery technology is progressing means that you should be able to buy a new battery pack with much better capacity (range) than the original for substantially less money. It's worth getting a battery pack that provides perhaps 50% more range than you require for your commute or average needs, so that you can suffer some loss of capacity and still have a safety reserve. That way you never need to worry about it and you'll easily get your 8-10 years of useful service by which point you've certainly had your money's worth from the bike and can upgrade.
Further reading: https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2013/12/01/2014-zero-battery-chemistry-z-force-power-tank-secret-sauce/ (https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2013/12/01/2014-zero-battery-chemistry-z-force-power-tank-secret-sauce/)
Storage and Capacity Loss with Age
You just have to come to terms with the fact that from the moment the battery pack is manufactured it will slowly lose overall capacity regardless of whether you use it or not. Li-ion batteries are good at holding their charge so you don't need to worry about letting them stand for a long time, providing they've got a reasonably good state of charge (SoC). At 40-50% SoC the overall capacity loss due to ageing is minimised. At full charge the ageing effects are increased but not by such a great amount that it should cause any great concern. For some owners it might be wiser to follow Zero's recommendations and just leave the bike plugged in for however long you plan to store the bike. This at least makes sure the individual cells stay balanced with each other and there's little risk of them dropping to a very low SoC at which point the ageing effects begin to increase. If you let the SoC drop below their minimum threshold you run the risk of the battery pack becoming unusable. I think that's why Zero recommend leaving the bike plugged in over winter. If there's some sort of power cut mid-winter and the bike isn't checked for a few months, then at least there's a good chance the battery won't have discharged too much.
If you do decide to leave it at 40-50% SoC you also need to be organised enough to check the bike every couple of weeks or so. It wouldn't hurt to charge it up after a few months, leave it plugged in for a few days to make sure the cells get properly balanced, then take it for a ride to bring the SoC down to the 40-50% level again before leaving it for the next few weeks or months.
I have no doubt that the good people at Zero have done their sums, know the specifications of the batteries in detail and are confident that their battery packs will have at least 80% health after five years even if the bike is never ridden and left plugged in all the time. Zero also state in their specifications that their battery packs are good for hundreds of thousands of miles before they reach 80% of their original stated capacity. That in itself should be enough to put your mind at rest, but if it isn't then perhaps these golden rules should help:
1. Don't leave the bike standing empty for more than a few days.
2. If you have to store the bike for a long time, then either leave it plugged in and don't worry about it, or leave it at 40-50% SoC but keep an eye on it.
3. Just use your bike as much as you can and don't worry about the battery. The engineers have thought all this through and are backing it up with a five year warranty. The whole scene will be different in five years time, so it isn't worth thinking about.
Deterioration with Temperature
Temperature is a bigger factor than state of charge when it comes to ageing. It is worth noting though that Li-ion batteries shouldn't generate a lot of heat when charging at normal rates. Therefore, even if you live in a hot climate and have just been on a ride, the cells should cool down overall even while they are charging. You might want to be a little more careful if fast charging in a hot climate but don't forget that the Zeros have a sophisticated Battery Management System (BMS) that will either reduce the charge rate or stop charging altogether if the cell temperature exceeds the limits that the engineers have set. They will have set these limits on the conservative side to avoid any claims on that five year warranty.
If you are going to store the bike, it makes sense to store it somewhere cool. Fridge temperature is probably best but never store below freezing. If you don't have the option of storing it somewhere cool, then don't worry about it.
Memory Effects
There are no memory effects with Li-ion chemistry. Some 'Smart' battery management systems might recommend performing a deep discharge followed by a full charge from time to time. This helps re-calibrate the system and give better estimations of capacity remaining. However, there is no need to do this from purely a cell maintenance point of view. All Li-ion batteries have protection circuits to keep the cells within their safe operating voltage range. You can therefore simply charge and discharge at will and not worry about charging a battery that is half full.
Battery Life
The manufacturer might state that you will get 500 cycles from a battery and they will be referring to full cycles. However, if you only ever use 10% of the capacity from a full charge and then top it up, you will get more cycles from it before the battery health drops to 80%. In this example you are likely to get 1500 cycles from a battery that you only ever discharge to half it's capacity. That's assuming that all other variables remain the same. In day-to-day use, variations in state of charge and temperature are more likely to affect battery life than how you cycle the battery. Taking Zero's claim's of an estimated battery pack life of 496,000 km using city ranges it would take at least 2,250 full cycles to achieve this (2014 Zero S 11.4 kWh). Taking into account the loss of capacity in this period and the figure is bound to be more like 2,500 cycles. Most trips and daily commutes will probably drop the battery to 40-50% SoC thus increasing the number of cycles we would get from the battery. Let's say we average 60 miles between charges of a 100 mile combined range over the life of the bike. Then let's allow ourselves 3,000 cycles before the battery drops to 80% health. That's still 180,000 miles. Even if we then halve that to allow for temperature and ageing (very unlikely even in harsh conditions) we get a very, very conservative estimate of 90,000 miles. That should give even a heavy commuter a good five or six years of use before noticing significant reduction in range. Even then, a daily average of 60 miles would still give you a 20 mile reserve.
Rate of Charging and Discharging
The Farasis cells have a nominal capacity of 25 Ah. Each cell has a maximum continuous discharge rate of 100 A. You would have to discharge the battery in 15 minutes to achieve that, which I don't believe is possible. Conveniently, the Zero S 11.4 should achieve a range of approximately 70 miles at a constant speed of 70 mph. That would result in a full discharge in an hour. Even maintaining 80 mph, the maximum sustained speed of the bike, I doubt you could empty the battery pack in less than half an hour. So the cells are operating well within their specifications.
The maximum charge rate is 25 A for each cell, which would mean a full charge in an hour. Even with 2 x 2.5 kW Elcons, you're only going to get a full charge in 2 hours, probably more like 2.5 hrs as the charge rate will drop as the battery reaches capacity. Yet again, the cells are under relatively little stress even with a fast charge.
Buying a Second Hand Bike
If Zero are putting a five year warranty on their battery packs, it's quite possible that they believe they will last ten years. Tesla are saying that their battery packs are good for 15 years apparently. I guess it's a lot like buying a normal bike or a car. Feel confident that it will give you at least five years or 50,000 miles of good service. If you don't mind buying a five year old vehicle and taking a bit more risk, then you should achieve double. Time will tell and sellers will be able to quote actual range figures to prospective buyers.
Summary
Battery technology is improving every year, but not at the same rate as computer technology. A 10% per year increase in capacity might be a reasonable expectation. We can always hope that there will be a significant breakthrough that makes is way to production and changes the state of the art much quicker. For the time being though, we have robust technology that should give you five to ten years of service and a range of about 100 miles of mixed riding as long as you don't spend much time on fast roads. Perfect for many city commuters and people who like relaxed rides taking the country roads. You will need an ICE bike for longer journeys and touring, unless you are willing to plan in long charging stops. If you can use your bike for your commute or have regular trips that cover less than 100 miles a day, then range anxiety won't be an issue. If I have managed to quell any anxiety you may have had about battery life and charging, then this article has served it's purpose.
References and further reading
http://batteryuniversity.com/ (http://batteryuniversity.com/)
Batteries in a Portable World by Isidor Buchmann
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Outstanding synopsis, bonkers! I'm an EE with considerable battery experience and I can't find a single mistake or even a significant omission in anything you said. Personally, I'm curious what design constraints the Zero engineers use to keep us out of trouble (e.g., what they consider "0% SoC"), but those sort of considerations definitely leave the "owner information" realm and enter into the "engineering information" realm...some of that sort of information may even be proprietary.
The owner of this bulletin board should flag this post as extremely valuable information.
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Doug,
My SR (with PT) when fully charged shows about 13.01 kw. If I run the battery down to say 4-5% SOC and muliply the miles by the wh/mile I find I have about 10 kw of usable battery. So there is roughly 3kw that I can not touch. I think this is one of the ways that Zero has set up to protect the battery from being completely drained. You will also find that the SOC shown on your smart phone app is about 4% greater than what your dash shows. But how your bike behaves once you get below 10% SOC will vary. I have had full power down to 4-5% and I have seen power cut at 9% before and by 4-5 % you can barely stay at 30-35 MPH.
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I agree; been involved in solar and storage for 22 years and this is a great and very accurate wrap on the whole issue, very well done Bonkers! My real world experience bears it out too. Interestingly, although I agree with you that theoretically Zero are under stressing the batteries and probably have a minimum DOD built in, I note that several large suppliers (here in Aus) are now recommending that stationary home energy storage using LiPo should only be discharged to 50%. However, I think this has a lot to do with the voltage slump that occurs near the tail which can confuse inverters; perhaps our controllers and motors are more tolerant? Certainly seems so given that I took mine down to 5% recently on a highway trip.
How would you feel if I re-published this on my site motoelectro.com.au?
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Don't store below freezing? So I have to build a heated garage before I can buy a Zero? Or will it heat the batteries if left plugged in?
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Don't store below freezing? So I have to build a heated garage before I can buy a Zero? Or will it heat the batteries if left plugged in?
I believe if you leave the bike plugged in all winter you will be fine and the batteries will not be damaged. However, there is probably some lower limit where damage would occur, but that is unlikely to occur in an enclosed garage and if you are storing the bike out in the open all winter, you will probably have other issues to be concerned about.
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Thanks for the positive comments so far. I must confess that I did pour rather a lot of time into the subject and it is very gratifying that fellows with great experience are in approval. Feel free to re-publish at will. It would be nice if you could paste a link back here so I can follow any comments. Just like some already made, they all add and enhance the topic.
Rham: If the battery pack is already fully charged, there will be very little heat generated by the BMS periodically topping it off and balancing the cells. No doubt occasional periods of sub zero temperatures will do little damage, but I'm thinking of the weather here in the UK. It very rarely gets much below freezing at night and even then will usually get above freezing during the day.
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Excellent sumarry and great info !
Some addition to your info ;)
The 2013 ALSO use the Farasis 25Ah pouches cells ( in 28s1p and 28s4p configuration)
The 2012 are using the EIG 20Ah pouches cells ( in modules of 18s2p configuration) some have 1 and some 3 modules inside the battery
The 2011 and previous are all using the Molicells 26700 of 2.9Ah ( in 14s12p and 14s24p configuration)
All the 2012+ battery+BMS have been designed by one of the top engineer, genious, generous and awsome guys some of us already know ;)
According to my calcylations the new 2015 battery are now using Farasis 27Ah pouches instead of 25Ah (2013-2014)
btw my Gm Volt also use NMC cells =))
Doc
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...I note that several large suppliers (here in Aus) are now recommending that stationary home energy storage using LiPo should only be discharged to 50%.
Nige, my guess for that is they're just recommending it to extend the life of the battery pack. A solar system will experience 365 charge/discharge cycles per year, so it adds up pretty fast, and a lot of LiPo formulations don't have the 2500-cycle life Zero's batteries have. If you only allow discharging to 50%, you'll have to double the size of your battery pack, but if the pack lasts five times as long, it might be a good deal.
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Bingo.
Only thing that worries me is the rush of massive claims around cycle life and DOD from the less educated; I can safely predict an unfortunate mess of warranty claims and fights in a year or two.
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Great read man! Thanks ;D
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This collection of battery information is very good! It's great to have it in one place. Thank you.
BTW - My Zero powered trike is severely shock and vibration testing the FX batteries since my shocks are way too stiff. I think anyone watching my Vimeo video of the Inyo Mountains trail riding would agree. :o So far no problemo. hmmm....where it the imotocon for knocking on wood?
Trikester
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Harlan claims the 2015 S/DS models are using an energy-optimized cell with lower power output - the 27Ah cells Doc is referring to. Since the peak discharge rates are lower for the S/DS models - up to 5C for the S ZF8.5 vs up to 8C for the FX.
http://hollywoodelectrics.com/featured/zero-motorcycles-battery-tech-adds-range-to-their-2015-lineup/ (http://hollywoodelectrics.com/featured/zero-motorcycles-battery-tech-adds-range-to-their-2015-lineup/)
The 2015 FX adds about 8 pounds. Presumably this is largely due to the heavier-duty Showa suspension and ABS. The Pirelli tires may well be heavier too.
Despite the 10% bump in capacity, the 2015 S / DS also only adds the same 8 pounds.
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This collection of battery information is very good! It's great to have it in one place. Thank you.
BTW - My Zero powered trike is severely shock and vibration testing the FX batteries since my shocks are way too stiff. I think anyone watching my Vimeo video of the Inyo Mountains trail riding would agree. :o So far no problemo. hmmm....where it the imotocon for knocking on wood?
Trikester
Can I please see some pics or a link of the build
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Can I please see some pics or a link of the build
If you are speaking of my e-trike conversion, using the Zero powertrain, I documented the whole project, on this forum, as it progressed. Search back and you will find it.
I also posted links to my Vimeo site for videos of trail riding both the FX and the trike.
Trikester
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Would this tradeoff on the battery discharge rate also be impactful re: charge times?
Would it explain perhaps the reason that CHAdeMO is no longer an option for 2015?
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Possibly. The smallest S bike has a 0-95% charge time of 1.4 hours with 4 accessory chargers, which isn't much longer than CHAdeMO charge time.
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I sure CHAdeMO would still be an option for fleet customers.
Quote from aaronzeromoto
"In terms of the experience, the biggest issue remains potential incompatibility with CHAdeMO stations that are not fully compliant with the specification. Our solution and our motorcycle's electrical architecture requires support for voltages below 200V. You'll find some posts on the forum describing this in more detail if you are interested. Some charging stations chose simply to stop at 200V, which is why you can't buy one of these unless you talk to me. We don't want you to be disappointed. Today, it's really a better solution for our Fleet customers that are installing a known compatible charging station or someone that knows they have access to a compatible station (typically a Nissan one)."
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3637.msg21348#msg21348 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3637.msg21348#msg21348)
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According to my calcylations the new 2015 battery are now using Farasis 27Ah pouches instead of 25Ah (2013-2014)
Official confirmation of the 27 Ah cell.
Originally posted at http://www.farasis.com/news.html (http://www.farasis.com/news.html)
October 2014
Leading the way in Li-ion battery performance, Farasis Energy is excited to introduce the 27Ah pouch cell design. A 10% capacity increase over Farasis’ previous capacity pouch cell designs, the 27Ah will be featured in Zero Motorcycle’s up and coming 2015 line up. See Zero Motorcycle’s press release (http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2015/press-kits/2015-zero-press-kit-us-e.pdf#page=13) to learn more.
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Did I get this link here ?
http://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs (http://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs)
Anyway, just listened until 35 minutes. Our battery is the second one on graph at 26:33.
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Excellent video, deserves it own forum post.
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Watched full video.
The key takeaway for our current bikes is to reduce the time spent with cell voltages above 4 to reduce the scale building. I believe my 2013 SR has the individual cell voltage set to 4163mv by default in the MBB. Changing this to 4 might increase the life of the battery at the expense of range.
Terry kind of does this but differently. He charges to 100% right before leaving versus letting it trickle charge over night. This way the time spent at higher voltage is reduced.
For those who store their bikes over winter it might be great to reduce the cell voltage cutoff via the MBB interface for the winter to keep the cells at 50% SOC.
High temperature is also a big factor with our bikes. Trying to keep the battery as cool as possible all the time will reduce the oxidation in the cells. Not sure how we can really fix this ourselves outside adding cooling components to the bike. Would doing this likely increase the risk of condensation though?
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Yeah, I think its been mooted before that storing your bike around the 40% - 50% mark is the most conducive to long life.
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Yeah, I think its been mooted before that storing your bike around the 40% - 50% mark is the most conducive to long life.
Yes, but how many people are using their ODBII connector to set the bikes charge limit cutoff point ;)
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Yeah, I think its been mooted before that storing your bike around the 40% - 50% mark is the most conducive to long life.
The more extreme a charge OR discharge event is for a rechargeable battery (any rechargeable battery, even "deep cycle" batteries), the harder it is on the battery. When the Prius first came out, people were screaming that the battery pack would have to be replaced every year as the batteries "wore out"...but there are now Priuses (Prii?) running with well over a quarter of a million miles on their original battery packs. Toyota engineers wisely limited the SoC of the batteries to the 40-60% range, so they only use 20% of the battery's capacity, but treating them so gently extended the useful life of the battery by a huge amount, well into "it's not a problem" territory.
Modern batteries give better results than the NiMH batteries of fifteen years ago, but it's still true, and will probably always be true, that efforts to get more capacity out of a battery by charging just a few millivolts higher, or discharging just a few millivolts lower, are always going to reduce the life of the battery. The engineers of the vehicle have to balance useful battery capacity against battery life, and their balance point isn't necessarily the same as yours as a consumer -- the manufacturer is always going to be motivated in large part by the advertising value of greater battery capacity. That's why I personally don't like to see my SoC indicator drop below 30%, and will try very hard to keep it from ever going below 20%. I'd rather plan my affairs around slightly shorter range and have my battery pack last longer.
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A good article but one missing point is the stress caused by 100% full charge.
From what I understand most of the cell wear is caused by full charge.
I usually do not charge my i-MiEV batteries to 100% when I don't need it for short commutes. It has Lithium Titanate cells rated at 3000-7000 cycles.
So it makes even more sense to do the same for the Zero NMC cells rated at 1000-2000 cycles.
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion]Ref: [url]http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion (http://Ref: [url)[/url]
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Thanks for your comments G.
I did mention that it's best to store Li-ion batteries at 40-50% state-of-charge but it doesn't hurt to point out that keeping them fully charged isn't necessarily the best strategy. I think that leaving them at a very low SoC is the most harmful and you also run the risk of the battery being bricked if it drops below the minimum.
My main motivation for writing that article was to try and reduce some of the anxiety around battery charging. Most people just want to plug their EV in when they get home so they always have a full charge ready and waiting. They don't want to have to think about how long their next journey is likely to be. They also don't want to have to remember to top up the batteries if they are going on a long trip. I want people to understand that it's ok to leave an EV plugged in all the time, if that's how you want to use it. The engineers who design these things have accounted for that and you'll get good battery health for at least the length of the warranty. For most people that's enough. They'll want a new car or certainly bike at least every five years and they just don't care.
People like you and I are a little different though. We want to take some care and want to get the most out of the things we buy and spend a lot of money on. You might want to keep your Mitsubishi for ten or fifteen years if it does the job. My Hyundai Getz is twelve years old and running well. In that case, you want to be doing exactly what you are doing. The last thing you want is a bill for a new battery pack after eight to ten years. I'd be upset if my Getz needed a new engine at ten years, which is arguably one of the most expensive components.
For most people, my message is: Don't hassle it, keep it plugged in. For the rest of us it's: A little bit of planning will give you a longer service life.
I know that if I was to buy second-hand I'd want a good way of measuring the battery health!
Thanks again G, I am actually agreeing with you even if it might not seem that way in some respects! [emoji4]
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Great Reading- Thank You Mr. Bonkers :) I leave my Zero plugged in all the time. I believe the Zero engineers have designed the charger to not overcharge. That 100% is not really 100%- that it is a value that in no way compromises the longevity of the cells.
But if Burton's comments about over 4 volts are helpful, then where does that leave our 'leave it plugged in' strategy?
I guess my question is- How do we program our MBB (Main Bike Board) to shut off at say 98%? Is this too far off topic for this thread? Reprogramming sounds quite 'techy'. But I would certainly enjoy learning more. Are there any threads that have this covered? Thanks
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Very good piece of work, Bonkers. I've spent several hours reading battery University for the last 2 years, as my life depends more and more on battery tech, and this is a very good summary in relation to our bike's, and as you said; for people who like to take a little more care of their wheels!
I have a question about batterytemp/charging:
If my info is correct, Zero tells us not to charge or avoid charging below freezing point. (or the BMS won't allow it)
When my DS is resting, it's battery temperature is always some 10 or 12 degrees higher then its surrounding temperature. I'm talking Celsius here.
Would that mean that i could charge the bike when it's -minus 5 degrees celsius? (battery temp would then be 5 degrees above freezing point)
The reason i'm asking is because we have mild winters over here, and mostly, temperatures are close to freezing point, and i do like to take a little more effort to keep stuff in good condition ;D My bike is always in the non-heated basement of my house. Is my thinking to simple or what?
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I'll try and answer the last two posts and thanks for your feedback.
The strategy of leaving the bike plugged in all the time is ok, after all it's what they tell you to do in the manual. There are lots of practical reasons why you would want to do that, convenience being at the heart of it. It is worth considering an alternative strategy if you don't use your bike every day. You could, for example, buy a timer and charge the bike for long enough to bring it up to 50% after your ride. You'll know from experience how long to set the charging time for depending on the state of charge left. You could also set the timer to come on a few hours before you want to ride the bike again to bring it up to a full charge. If taking that approach, you will still want to leave the bike plugged in for an extended period occasionally to allow the BMS to balance the cells.
If the ambient temperature is at or below freezing, I would not attempt to charge the bike even if the battery thinks it is warm enough. If the bike has been standing for a long time, all of the components will be at the same temperature. It's likely that the temperature sensor is reading inaccurately.
I hope that helps.
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Thanks bonkers, ill take that in consideration when the freezing starts...
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There's some great additional information here:
Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314
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There's some great additional information here:
Battery notes from a Farasis Engineer.
http://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5314
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Hi,
I have a DSp (2014 11.4) since 2 months.
2 500km done
When fully charged, I saw with iPhone Zero application that Battery capacity is 10.556kwh.
I should expect to see something near 11.4kwh.
Is it the same difference for everyone using zero bike ?
Someone have the explanation ?
I spoke to my distributor, and he told me that 11.4 is max capacity, and that 10.5 is nominal capacity, the battery are never fully charged, this is to have a good battery life. "it's the same on all the bikes".
I found this curious as it is written 11.4 on the bike.
thanks
thanks
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Hi Morpheus, remind me where you are based again? Are you in the UK?
As you may know I have recently acquired a DSP. I get almost exactly the same reading as you. In fact, if you check out the specs, Zero claim a nominal capacity of 10kWh. I don't know why the app reports more.
It's normal. The badge says 11.4kWh because that is the underlying capacity of the cells. Your distributor is telling the truth; keeping the maximum and minimum voltages of the cells lower and higher than their specified limits makes the battery last longer. That's why Zero can advise to leave your bike plugged in all the time and not worry about it adversely affecting battery longevity.
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Thanks for reply ! and quick reply !
I'm in France, from Toulouse.
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Mon plaisir! [emoji4]
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Very good piece of work, Bonkers. I've spent several hours reading battery University for the last 2 years, as my life depends more and more on battery tech, and this is a very good summary in relation to our bike's, and as you said; for people who like to take a little more care of their wheels!
I have a question about batterytemp/charging:
If my info is correct, Zero tells us not to charge or avoid charging below freezing point. (or the BMS won't allow it)
When my DS is resting, it's battery temperature is always some 10 or 12 degrees higher then its surrounding temperature. I'm talking Celsius here.
Would that mean that i could charge the bike when it's -minus 5 degrees celsius? (battery temp would then be 5 degrees above freezing point)
The reason i'm asking is because we have mild winters over here, and mostly, temperatures are close to freezing point, and i do like to take a little more effort to keep stuff in good condition ;D My bike is always in the non-heated basement of my house. Is my thinking to simple or what?
Why not move the bike upstairs to the heated part of the house, that way you can always charge and the battery pack stays warm for your ride giving more range. This is what others have found in cold weather.
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Moving a bike upstairs seems easy for you :)
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Hi,
I have a DSp (2014 11.4) since 2 months.
2 500km done
When fully charged, I saw with iPhone Zero application that Battery capacity is 10.556kwh.
I should expect to see something near 11.4kwh.
Is it the same difference for everyone using zero bike ?
Someone have the explanation ?
I spoke to my distributor, and he told me that 11.4 is max capacity, and that 10.5 is nominal capacity, the battery are never fully charged, this is to have a good battery life. "it's the same on all the bikes".
I found this curious as it is written 11.4 on the bike.
thanks
thanks
11.4 kWh is the "max" capacity, which is essentially the amp-hours multiplied by the maximum voltage at full charge. It will never be available in practice, because the voltage will decrease as the bike discharges. "Nominal" capacity is the more accurate measure, which is amp-hours multiplied by voltage at 50% charge.
It's not clear what the Zero app reports - whether charge consumed at the wall (unlikely), nominal capacity (seems high), or maximum capacity derated by some factor (the bike does not charge to a true 100% nor does it discharge to a true 0%, but perhaps 97% to 2%).
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11.4 kWh is the "max" capacity, which is essentially the amp-hours multiplied by the maximum voltage at full charge. It will never be available in practice, because the voltage will decrease as the bike discharges. "Nominal" capacity is the more accurate measure, which is amp-hours multiplied by voltage at 50% charge.
It's not clear what the Zero app reports - whether charge consumed at the wall (unlikely), nominal capacity (seems high), or maximum capacity derated by some factor (the bike does not charge to a true 100% nor does it discharge to a true 0%, but perhaps 97% to 2%).
hopefully it just measures the instantaneous current at the shunt, and logs it over time.. Like a Cycle Analyst does.
Anything else is just guessing.
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Hi all
great initial post!
(Sorry maybe the topic below has already been discussed before, I'm new to the forum)
I'm about to buy a 2015 DS model here in France and I was wondering about the possibility of using the battery as an energy source to power something else than the bike.
Let me explain a bit more: I'm in the renewable energy (solar and wind mainly) business. I'm specialized in residential solutions to provide electricity to take care of home & family daily needs. As you should know, solar & wind are versatile by nature and so you need to have a battery storage to manage night needs typically. The battery (see Telsa Powerwall) is a key part of my configurations, from a cost perspective especially. I would love the idea of using the Zero battery as a secondary storage (say in winter when you need more power and can't really use your bike because of the bad weather).
Any thoughts ?
Thanks a lot
Arnold.
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You could buy a 12VDC - 100 or 200 VAC (not sure about your standards). There is a 12V DC converter in the bike.
Of course there will be losses. It would be better a 100VDC to 100 or 200 VAC converter directly.
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How many watts do you need?
I lived in an off the grid house in Florida and used my Zero to charge my phone, laptop and run LED lights all night. I had a 200 watt 12V DC/AC inverter that I ran off the bikes 300 watt DC/DC converter.
My laptop charger used 35 watts, my cell phone used 5 watts and the LED lights all added up to about 10 watts. So I was only using about 50 watts of the 200 available from my inverter, but at night that's all I needed. During the day, the solar would power the fridge, and other big items. At night with the door closed the fridge didn't need to run and only went up about 1 degree, but I had it set for a colder temperature during the day and filled it full of water bottles in the freezer part too. Worked perfect.
For items that will run on DC, you'd be surprised how many will but do at your own risk, you can simply tap off the Anderson port and put a NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 socket at the end. Good for powering electric chainsaws in the middle of the woods, incandescent lightbulbs and other things. Hopefully someone one day will make a list of items that work on DC. If the device has a built in bridge rectifier then it should work. If it's just a resistance element like a coil heater it should work fine too, but it depends on if it has a forced air fan that requires AC.
You should safely be able to get 4000 watts from any 2013 and up bike and all you need is 1500 on a nema 5-15 plug anyway.
Safest way is to research a company like Xantrex or another off grid inverter company and tell them your battery bank is 100 volts DC. I'm sure they have a solution. Tap into the pos and neg on the Sevcon and with the bike on, you can power as much as your inverter can handle.
Warning: The bike will time out after an hour. Flip the run kill switch to the kill position, make sure the kickstand is down, and then, hold the throttle open with a plastic bag between the handgrip and the kill switch plastic. This fools the bike and keeps it from shutting down after 3600 seconds.
Try the 200 watt inverter solution first. You'll find at night when you're sleeping, you don't really need a lot of power anyway. Oh and a bonus if you go that route. The 2015 and up bikes have a 500 watt DC/DC converter now. So that means you could charge 100 cell phones overnight if you wanted. Build a kill switch for the headlight, and lock the throttle to keep it powering all night. You will need to tap the DC/DC converter directly if you want to pull more than 120 watts as the accessory port has only a 10 amp fuse.
All of this will void your warranty however, except running a 100 watt cigarette plug inverter to power an LED lamp, phone charger and laptop charger, and your internet wireless router, which at night is all you should need anyway.
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At night with the door closed the fridge didn't need to run and only went up about 1 degree, but I had it set for a colder temperature during the day and filled it full of water bottles in the freezer part too.
off topic, but it amazes me that everyone doesnt know this.. keep your freezer and fridge full of water bottles, and it will hold the temp better.. an empty fridge "pours" out all the cold air everything you open the door. but once you cool the water, it takes alot for it to warm up, and it keeps the fridge from working as hard. so if your fridge is not full all the time, keep it full with water bottles. You can always take them out if you buy a bunch of food.
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Thanks guys!
You are just amazing! Incredible how much you know about the bike and much more!
My business is very slow to start here in France, I wish we have much more open and clever guys like you down here, showing the way to renewable energy and all the possibilities re Electric Vehicle storage.
Looking forward to riding my 2015 DS (I've tested it twice, it's a great bike that will make me drive 100% on my own produced energy). I currently own a Honda VFR 1200X which is also a great bike but much more for very long ride cross France and not short commute trips.
Keep on e-riding and rollin' guys
Arnold
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I don't see how that would really save energy in a realistic situation. If one is only using 1/2 the fridge all the time, then yes, fill up with water bottles. Better yet - get a smaller fridge. But our fridge is full on Sunday, empty by Friday. Taking out all cold water bottles on Sunday and recooling them on Friday (or during the week incrementally) I think will only waste energy vs. the energy wasted to cool air when the door is opened and closed during the week.
With water bottles one can regulate *when* the fridge works hard, and if one is powering it by solar it makes sense to cool the water off during the day when it is "free" to do so. For regular utility customers like me who pay a flat rate electricity regardless of time of day I don't see how water bottles loading would help at all and it seems to me it will hurt overall.
At night with the door closed the fridge didn't need to run and only went up about 1 degree, but I had it set for a colder temperature during the day and filled it full of water bottles in the freezer part too.
off topic, but it amazes me that everyone doesnt know this.. keep your freezer and fridge full of water bottles, and it will hold the temp better.. an empty fridge "pours" out all the cold air everything you open the door. but once you cool the water, it takes alot for it to warm up, and it keeps the fridge from working as hard. so if your fridge is not full all the time, keep it full with water bottles. You can always take them out if you buy a bunch of food.
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I don't see how that would really save energy in a realistic situation. If one is only using 1/2 the fridge all the time, then yes, fill up with water bottles. Better yet - get a smaller fridge. But our fridge is full on Sunday, empty by Friday. Taking out all cold water bottles on Sunday and recooling them on Friday (or during the week incrementally) I think will only waste energy vs. the energy wasted to cool air when the door is opened and closed during the week.
With water bottles one can regulate *when* the fridge works hard, and if one is powering it by solar it makes sense to cool the water off during the day when it is "free" to do so. For regular utility customers like me who pay a flat rate electricity regardless of time of day I don't see how water bottles loading would help at all and it seems to me it will hurt overall.
At night with the door closed the fridge didn't need to run and only went up about 1 degree, but I had it set for a colder temperature during the day and filled it full of water bottles in the freezer part too.
off topic, but it amazes me that everyone doesnt know this.. keep your freezer and fridge full of water bottles, and it will hold the temp better.. an empty fridge "pours" out all the cold air everything you open the door. but once you cool the water, it takes alot for it to warm up, and it keeps the fridge from working as hard. so if your fridge is not full all the time, keep it full with water bottles. You can always take them out if you buy a bunch of food.
you need to just do whatever makes sense for you... Think of the water as a kind of thermal flywheel.
If you're going to open the door all the time, it helps keep it cool. If you want it to run at max then stay off for awhile, it helps.
Since most refrigerators work at one rate, and then cut on and off to stay within a range, this flywheel effect can keep it off for longer.
At home if you get multiple rate electricity, and dont leave the door open you can actually set it to only power on when power is cheaper too.
I use this trick for my freezer, as it starts full, then gets lower over time, so most of the time its more than half empty, but I cant get a smaller freezer or I wouldnt be able to fit everything when I first get it. Its not opened often, so it has its power through a timer to cut on only at night, and it has an override that will bypass the timer to power it on full if the temp ever rises above 32F (0C).
it does take energy to initially freeze the water, but the water stays frozen unless its needed, plus I have a backup supply of cold fresh water if bad weather hits.
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It's a bit off topic, but thought some readers may find interest in the casual comparisons of various materials energy densities: http://graphics.wsj.com/iphone-battery/#/?q=0 (http://graphics.wsj.com/iphone-battery/#/?q=0)
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Hey Electric Terry, its great to see that you are off-grid and power stuff in your house from the Zero's battery... but please tell us how you recharge your Zero then?
I am taking delivery of my Zero DS 11.4 in a few days time and have been in contact with the manufacturer in the USA (without much luck) regarding a solar PV charge option for the Zero. As I see it one should be able to get an off-board aux DC-DC charger for the bike and use it just like the Delta-Q charger, BUT the Zero sales manager says its' impossible!?
Sounds a bit crazy to put up 4 x 300W solar panels and convert their DC output to AC with an expensive inverter just to have the Delta-Q off-board charger convert the AC back to DC to charge the Zero's batteries!?
I even emailed Delta-Q to ask them why they don't sell an MPPT type PV solar panel charger for the Zero's batteries? No Reply (PS there are other LiIoPho4 battery suppliers who will gladly sell you a solar PV MPPT charger for their batteries, so common Zero, please get your minds to this.)
I live in Cape Town South Africa, have a 36km commute into town and can leave the bike charging in the great african sunshine for the whole day before hoping back on it to make the trip home... even in winter (coldest it gets is 7 deg C .... with still about 300 Watt per sq m sunshine)
All I need is a Delta-Q solar charger :-) please...
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Anyone know how much the 13.0 battery weighs? I was just curious because the title says everything you need to know, but that part is left out. I can't seem to find that info anywhere either.
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Anyone know how much the 13.0 battery weighs? I was just curious because the title says everything you need to know, but that part is left out. I can't seem to find that info anywhere either.
At a guess, 300lbs. It is four of the 75lb modules so... unless someone has weighed theirs?
Snarky retort: Charged or discharged?
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Anyone know how much the 13.0 battery weighs? I was just curious because the title says everything you need to know, but that part is left out. I can't seem to find that info anywhere either.
At a guess, 300lbs. It is four of the 75lb modules so... unless someone has weighed theirs?
Snarky retort: Charged or discharged?
75 lbs?? 44 lbs I think.
Anyone know how much the 13.0 battery weighs? I was just curious because the title says everything you need to know, but that part is left out. I can't seem to find that info anywhere either.
2016 Zero SR ZF13 = 414 lbs
2016 Zero SR ZF16.3 (power tank) = 458 lbs
2017 Zero SR ZF13 = 408 lbs
2017 Zero SR ZF16.3 (power tank) = 452 lbs
So the extra battery brick for the power tank = ~44 lbs
A ZF13 monolith has the equivalent of 4 bricks so 44 lbs x 4 = ~176 lbs
That's probably a more accurate number for a 2016 ZF13 bike since they actually have 4 bricks. For 2017, a ZF13 has only 2 long bricks so there might be a slight weight savings there. A 2017 ZF13 bike is 6 lbs lighter than a 2016 ZF13 bike. There are other changes besides 4 brick to 2 long brick (wider belt with different gear sizes, lockable storage tank instead of the bag etc.) but 176 +/- 6 lbs should be a safe bet.
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Bare brick is about 38lb
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Thanks for the replies. I figured someone out there had weighed it at some point. I get asked that question from time to time.