ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: firepower on March 11, 2015, 02:46:38 PM
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I and many other in these forums think it is very poor on Zero part not too have a repair / service manual for their motorcycles.
Many forum post are complaining about the lack of a manual and asking other owners how to do repairs or mods because they have no service manual to refer too.
Some are forced to research OEM technical data and service manual if available (eg Fastace shock disassemble).
aaronzeromoto as Director of Customer Experience
what is Zero reason for not providing Service Manual for purchase or download?
All other Motorcycle Manufactures have them available for purchase or free downolad.
I have download many manual when I have been interested about a model of motorcycle just to see how they are made and what tech they are using just for educational and curiosity
reasons.
There would be many happy and thankful zero owners and maybe new owners if a reapair / service manual was available.
Electric Cars have them why not Electric Motorcycles?
(added Poll)
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Yeah, for example, when I put in my power tank, it referenced a tool, then said "use as described in the service manual"
Which is probably why my bike is now in the shop with all sorts of errors. Whatever.
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I agree with firepower.
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I totally agree. We should have all available technical repair and service information for the motorcycles we purchase. Every time I buy a new car or pickup truck I also purchase (at highly inflated prices) the shop manual for that new vehicle.
Trikester
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Who would not want to have a service manual? Especially for all of the chassis maintenance and repair procedures and at least the 12V electric system. I can understand why Zero would not want to publish a battery and power train service manual and make it available to the general public, but a complete chassis service manual would be really helpful for customers who do not have easy access to their retail dealer.
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I can understand why Zero would not want to publish a battery and power train service manual and make it available to the general public
I can't... there's times when you're stuck in the middle of bumfuck, Florida (like I was most of my life) and there's no dealer closer than 4 hours away, and it doesn't matter anyway because he's a complete dipshit that'll break your machine worse than it already is. That's when a complete manual saves your butt.
Except for Zero being so small and just starting out, there's *no* excuse for a $20K motorcycle w/o a service manual available.
Personally, I'm still waiting to find out about my "open contactor" error... I don't even have enough info to talk sensibly to the service manager.
Where is it? Is it hard to replace? How much is it? Is it actually the contactor and not something upstream? How do you tell? What is actually upstream... just a few things, or a whole string? What's the recommended troubleshooting and how long does it take?
Those are all "battery and power train" questions.
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I can't...
Possibly liability issues?
They make the service manual open. Someone opens the battery and fries themselves, and then their next of Kin sues Zero?
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I can't...
Possibly liability issues?
They make the service manual open. Someone opens the battery and fries themselves, and then their next of Kin sues Zero?
That was my thought, too.
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As it is now people will try and fix with no info or warnings. doing it blind.
If they had the manual i sure there would be plenty of warnings and DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE CAN KILL etc.
All high voltage wiring is shrouded in orange by law, this is to alert emergency rescue and service technicians not to cut them or short them out.
http://www.delfingen.com/protection-cablages/brochures/brochure-hev-250612-bassedef.pdf (http://www.delfingen.com/protection-cablages/brochures/brochure-hev-250612-bassedef.pdf)
Its a lot safer when you know what your working on and what to avoid.
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I always just cut wires and ask questions after 8)
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As it is now people will try and fix with no info or warnings. doing it blind.
If they had the manual i sure there would be plenty of warnings and DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE CAN KILL etc.
All high voltage wiring is shrouded in orange by law, this is to alert emergency rescue and service technicians not to cut them or short them out.
http://www.delfingen.com/protection-cablages/brochures/brochure-hev-250612-bassedef.pdf (http://www.delfingen.com/protection-cablages/brochures/brochure-hev-250612-bassedef.pdf)
Its a lot safer when you know what your working on and what to avoid.
I'd love it to be that way too.
However if Zero says : Do not touch what inside the black box, properly trained mechanics only (which is their current stance) then they are not liable for what happens to you if you DO open it and mess with it (which you ARE within your rights to do regardless) I suspect that making the service manual publicly available would reduce their defense in law.
Of course I would love a copy of the service manual myself, but I don't believe I have any right to it.
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Of course I would love a copy of the service manual myself, but I don't believe I have any right to it.
You don't think so? After paying $20K for a bike?
I'm thinking buying a bike w/o a service manual was a big mistake. I was kind of blinded by the actual joy of test-riding the thing, and forgot that taking care of it is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
I've only bought one other bike w/o a service manual, and that was in 1985, and at least I got a Clymer's.
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I tell the people that I run into that are interested in electric bikes: "you want to hold off, it's a nice bike but it's not ready yet, like the company doesn't make a service manual available and stuff"
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Well I paid £8000 for mine ;)
I've NEVER been able to get hold of a service manual legitimately, not for any Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki I've owned, on the few occasions I've asked the manufactorer (or dealer) I been polietly told to **** off, dealers have that sort of thing wrapped up.
As I say having a service manual would be nice, but finding a leaked copy would be very difficult I suspect, its not like I can simply go onto pirate bay and torrent one like I would normally have to do.
I have however owned a lot of Haynes manuals.
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Possibly liability issues?
They make the service manual open. Someone opens the battery and fries themselves, and then their next of Kin sues Zero?
But then they opened the battery against either "don't open the battery" or "don't short these contacts" warnings in the manual, and Zero can say "we told you so. you ignored our warnings.". I'd think that exonerates Zero more than anything.
Just like with my ICE bikes. I've read the service manual for my FJR & SV and know which areas of the ABS are "strictly do not f**k with" and I know how to safely change the fluid, test the HU, or replace the brake lines w/o compromising my anti-lock system.
I've NEVER been able to get hold of a service manual legitimately, not for any Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki I've owned, on the few occasions I've asked the manufactorer (or dealer) I been polietly told to **** off, dealers have that sort of thing wrapped up.
Yeah, I used to have the same problem, but now I simply insist on buying the manual and don't take any shit about it. I buy all my stuff online nowadays from ronayers.com and other places because the local parts-monkeys are morons.
I've never owned a Kawasaki, but I've got factory manuals for my Yamahas, Suzukis, and Hondas. They're expensive though, usually about $150 or so.
Hell, Ron Ayers even sold me the Suzuki dealer diagnostic system (a USB box for the bike and some Windows software) which I needed to test the ABS pump and sync the throttle bodies. On 2008 and later Suzukis, they have an air equalizing valve between the throttle bodies, and you need a laptop to disable it so you can sync them. That was $700.
On my FJR, I insert a jumper, do a dance with the kill switch & starter button, and I can test the ABS. No laptop necessary.
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My FJR manual is pretty damn hefty. The stack of loose pages between the big Chilton's and the Honda CSM are the xeroxed factory manual for my '85 Yamaha RZ-350. This is only one shelf. I have a couple more shelves.
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I've NEVER been able to get hold of a service manual legitimately, not for any Kawasaki, Honda or Suzuki I've owned, on the few occasions I've asked the manufactorer (or dealer) I been polietly told to **** off, dealers have that sort of thing wrapped up.
Yeah, I used to have the same problem, but now I simply insist on buying the manual and don't take any shit about it. I buy all my stuff online nowadays from ronayers.com and other places because the local parts-monkeys are morons.
I guess that's why I'm arguing this. Not only do I know the "we don't do service manuals" line is complete horseshit, but it's a line of BS people have tried to feed me for many years.
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I have very nice original factory (paper) service manuals for my Triumph and my Yamaha. My daughter has factory manuals for her Suzuki SV650 and her 1986 Honda VFR700FII. I have excellent factory ($100) DVD service manuals for both of my BMWs, which I purchased over the counter from my dealer's BMW parts department. However, a couple of years ago, BMW in the U.S. stopped selling their factory service manual DVDs over the counter to the public. I gather that some dealers were complaining that selling the manuals to their customers was cutting into their very lucrative service department business (when their customers would perform service and repairs themselves) and requested that further sales of the manuals be discontinued. However, Chilton and Clymer still publish paper service manuals for BMW (and most other motorcycles) models, but only for non-current models (like my F650GS). :(
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I've got an original owner's manual for my 1981 Moto Morini 500. It includes little details like the acceptable amount of play in the crank pin, and "checking play in the main bushing". And other things like checking engine timing and how to replace the timing belt. The factory service manual (that I've also got, original paper and a pdf) obviously goes into a lot more detail.
I've also got a Laverda 750 owner's manual that has a complete parts list in it - of the entire bike. The service details in the manual are broken down into "operations that do not require removal of the engine from the frame" and "operations that require the removal of the engine from the frame". And a complete set of "allowances for specific parts or components" - which has all the acceptable levels of play in it. Then there's the Laverda Green Book, with everything else.
All have wiring diagrams too.
We've come a long way, haven't we.
Peter
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My 1960 Sears Allstate (Puch) 125cc motorcycle was delivered with similar documentation. Everything you needed to set up, repair, service and order parts for the bike was included in the manuals delivered with the motorcycle when you bought it through the Sears Roebuck Catalog. :)
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For anything on the level of complexity as an electric motorcycle or scooter, a technical assembly manual of some form has to be in existence.
Engineering needs to properly document their designs for internal things such as design reviews, and sufficient instructions are necessary for properly assembling the mechanical and/or electrical assemblies.
As part of the manufacturing process, there also needs to be 'acceptance test' procedures and passing criteria.
Documentation is one of the main functions of the product design team, otherwise the products would not be able to be efficiently manufactured.
So as mentioned by many others, it's more of an impediment for adept mechanics/technicians to be able to autonomously work on their own machines. It's not that a factory repair manual is in existence or not. A manual is not available as a deterrent for technical-types to actually know about the technical aspects and operation of the machines. In My Opinion (IMO) for the market segment that is attracted to new technology (like those of us on the forum), that is not a very customer-friendly policy.
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As for the liability issue in doing repairs...that issue has been around since the dawn of the mechanical/industrial revolution.
The equipment for the time at each stage of the industrial evolution was complex (for that time-frame) and performing some work on the machines presented the possibility of injury or death. If liability could be placed on the manufacturer for providing proper information on maintenance and repair, then this would exist for all the other equipment in our modern lives as well.
I am of the belief that it's more of a stance by management thinking that the electrical architecture and implementation of their electric motorcycles is quite different than what most people are accustomed to in terms of knowing what to do to work on them.
So they limit the information thinking that people aren't capable of working on the machines, and that all the work needs to be performed by 'certified' mechanics...which we know on this forum, often leaves the riders wanting as the bike sits in some dealer's shop.
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I agree for such a expensive device, repair manual is needed. Everyone knows their abilities and will work within their limits or ask for help and learn more skills.
Most of the advance electrical parts will be treated as black boxes, leave them alone or replace as a unit. But knowing how they are wired helps.
Even Burton had to reverse engineer his own wiring diagram because he could not get one from Zero, even though they exist, as trikster has one but has a NDA stopping him from sharing it. Burton Wiring Diagram is freely available , so this proves that the information can be shared and used. Its just disappointing that users have to go to these extreme steps to get the info.
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Hopefully someone of Zero´s staff reads this thread here....
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When I created thread I PM aaronzeromoto to notify him i asked him a question about repair manuals in the thread.
No response as yet.
I am also going to raise this issue in the FaceBook Zero Owners Group.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/)
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Tesla has done the very same thing. They were forced to put a subscription based version of their manual up to comply with the Mass. right to repair law but otherwise staunchly refuses to provide documentation on their product.
In addition to the liability issue, I suspect there are issues of warranty. I'm sure there are those (a lot on this forum and you know who you are :) ) that will take knowledge from the manual to increase performance. Zero is likely holding off to delay those efforts as well.
Lastly, someone will shock themselves. A previous poster mentioned the contactor. Yep, that is the big clicky thing that isolates the 100V battery from the speed controller as a safety. By definition, you will be playing with the live 100 Vdc side of things when you go to work on that bit. What Zero needs to take into account is there has always been the set of "mechanics" that manage to light their car/bike on fire by not handling gas correctly. You can not protect people from themselves. We just need a legal system that holds people accountable for their actions so that companies like Zero and Tesla can do the right thing by the majority of responsible customers.
Rant over..... Sorry for jumping on my milk crate.
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Bridging Cycles to the Technical aspects of documentation expectations, apt in the Zero forum as the Zero is as much an electronic device as it is a mechanical device.
I still have at my desk what I still consider as my gold standard for service documentation.
It is the Tandy 1000 Technical Reference Manual.
Pin outs of every chip with wave forms and schematics of every component from the Intel 8088 Chip to the RS-232 subsystem.
Attached is a shared sample, and "No" one is not page 4077 - just a small 3 ring binder in a box.
I never (ever even came close) to adjusting the track 00 sensor on a floppy drive, but the manual covered it.
Competitive edge lost? Runaway warranty issues? Liability?
Sure - Tandy is financially in the dumps now but 3 decades ago these services manuals did not hamper them at all and certainly helped launch my career.
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News flash: Zero doesn't want self-educated EV mechanics mucking with their bikes. I can't say that I blame them.
I understand, appreciate and encourage Zero owners to learn everything they can about their bikes, but they can't fault Zero for not publishing an official service manual. How many motorcycle manufacturers publish service manuals? My experience (correct me if I'm wrong) is that service manuals are created and released exclusively by 3rd parties, not the manufacturers. These 3rd parties reverse engineer the vehicle by taking it apart and putting it back together (similar to what many forum members here have done). If there's a business market for such a publication, then they document it and sell it. The manufacturer does not get involved in this process in any way. If other vehicle manufacturers have published service manuals, good for them. It seems that Zero has chosen not to, for the reasons I explain below (and probably more).
Of course the manufacturer has service manuals, Zero included. They need to diagnose failures on the manufacturing line, and provide training/documentation to their dealership network. Do they want to publish these manuals to the general public? NO! Should we fault or blame them for this? NO! That would create an incredible headache for them while they are trying to grow/expand, with very little (probably no) benefit. Some owners would inevitably cause issues with their bikes while trying to improve it. Some might even get hurt. Modifying an electric vehicle with a high voltage battery pack isn't the same as opening a personal computer, or even take an ICE engine apart. Way different.
Ultimately, the reasoning for wanting such service manuals falls into two categories:
1. Owners want to modify their bike.
2. Owners want to fix their bike themselves (and not have it done by a dealer).
For #1, the owners should acknowledge that Zero supports some modifications... using parts and processes that they have designed, tested and/or qualified (ie. stuff they sell on their website). All other modifications introduce unknown variables into their product.
Again, I understand why people want to modify their bikes. It's human nature to tinker and make things better. But Zero put a LOT of thought and effort into the design. They have pride and responsibility in their design. They also have IP to protect, which a service manual can compromise. More importantly, Zero's current efforts are focused on building and shipping high quality electric motorcycles, while trying to expand their dealer network. They are up to their eyeballs working on that stuff, so don't be surprised if you get no response when you aggressively ask for service manuals, or any other documentation that gives you a sneak peak into their product design.
I hope this post helps stop the mob-mentality that Zero owes us service manuals. They don't owe them to us, and if owners want to modify/repair the product in their garage, they do so using their own knowledge (+ Internet forums) and at their own risk.
If you disagree with this, feel free to give Richard Walker a call and tell him why Zero should change their policy :-)
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In my experience, as mentioned in a previous post, all of the Japanese brands will provide a factory service manual to their customers. All you have to do is pay over $100 for the manual. BMW used to do the same, but have stopped selling their official service manual DVDs in U.S. markets recently, although there are apparently some pirated copies available from the usual sources (eBay and the like).
However, I don't fault Zero for not providing a factory service manual over-the-counter to their customers, because I can understand why they would not want to do this. However, it still would be appreciated if they included some additional information regarding servicing and performing minor repairs to the chassis components in the owner's manual that comes with their bikes. But then I come from a background where you had to work on your own bike if you wanted to keep it running and not have it die by the side of the road on a trip. ::)
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News flash: Zero doesn't want self-educated EV mechanics mucking with their bikes. I can't say that I blame them.
I hope this post helps stop the mob-mentality that Zero owes us service manuals. They don't owe them to us, and if owners want to modify/repair the product in their garage, they do so using their own knowledge (+ Internet forums) and at their own risk.
Sorry, that doesn't wash. For a $20K piece of personal transportation, I deserve the opportunity to buy a service manual.
I've been giving Zero a break because they're very small and a FSM is a large task, plus their product has changed drastically every year, so it's a moving target.
I didn't buy an Aprilia because they wouldn't give me the ability to change the transmission belt when it wore out. I wouldn't buy a BMW without a service manual, and I'm really sorry I bought a Zero now.
I'm going to be warning anybody that asks about my electric bike not to buy one.
They're not yet real bikes, they're still toys.
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I'm with you, I've been a licensed mechanic for 20 years (everything from cars and performance tuning to municipal equipment to emergency response vehicles) if I'm buying a 25k toy, (because for many who can't ride all year it is not a necessity) I must have things like torque specs , tightening procedures, wiring diagrams and troubleshooting trees, do the dealers get service manuals to repair these bikes? If so then the work of producing a manual is a moot point, if not I would refuse to work on them if I were a tech at the shop, for both personal safety and personal liability reasons. this could be another source of revenue for the shops and zero as well or even a bargaining chip when negotiating a sale
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jheth, you didn't address your point #2.
If Zero don't expect owners to want to try to fix their bikes, then maybe Zero should have made more reliable machines. I can' speak for the post-2012 Zeros, that may prove more reliable, but the 2012 and earlier bikes seems like they were sold with a belief that it's perfectly all right for owners to be beta-testers. Our 2012 XU is an example of a vehicle that should not have been sold to the motoring public.
It's one thing to have the horn fail with a couple of weeks of getting the bike - that's something I can troubleshoot (years of owning Italian motorcycles means knowing how to troubleshoot electrics). As Richard says, at least providing a chassis manual would be a start. We're coming up to the end of our warranty on the XU and I don't know what I'm going to do the next time it breaks down, but I know that paying a dealer to fix it will be very low on my list of options.
Our XU cost just over $5K with a rat Kwak 250 as a trade-in, and I think we made a mistake spending that much.
Peter
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jheth, you didn't address your point #2.
If Zero don't expect owners to want to try to fix their bikes, then maybe Zero should have made more reliable machines. I can' speak for the post-2012 Zeros, that may prove more reliable, but the 2012 and earlier bikes seems like they were sold with a belief that it's perfectly all right for owners to be beta-testers. Our 2012 XU is an example of a vehicle that should not have been sold to the motoring public.
It's one thing to have the horn fail with a couple of weeks of getting the bike - that's something I can troubleshoot (years of owning Italian motorcycles means knowing how to troubleshoot electrics). As Richard says, at least providing a chassis manual would be a start. We're coming up to the end of our warranty on the XU and I don't know what I'm going to do the next time it breaks down, but I know that paying a dealer to fix it will be very low on my list of options.
Our XU cost just over $5K with a rat Kwak 250 as a trade-in, and I think we made a mistake spending that much.
Peter
Zero didn't make a conscience decision to design and sell an unreliable product. They were learning in the early stages, and it has paid off. The 2013+ platform is much better. It also wasn't their intention to piss off owners by not providing service manuals to them. That's what the dealers are for. They are trained and equipped to perform the service, but with a problematic design (ie. 2012 and earlier models), even dealers had troubles fixing issues. That's the nature of being an early adopter of a new technology (or new application of existing technology). All early adopters should understand and accept this risk when they buy in. Tesla Roadster owners had high dissatisfaction, but the Model S is so much better in so many ways because of lessons learned.
Here's my explanation of my 2nd point above (owners want to fix their own bike). Again, I support owners fixing their own vehicles, but if it's on warranty, the dealer should be the first point of support. Of course there are situations/issues that don't warrant a long drive (ie. transporting the bike in a truck) just to have a dealer's service dept look into something that might be a minor annoyance. However, remember that Zero's dealership network is very small... VERY small compared to the major bike manufacturers that have millions of bikes on the roads. If your closest dealer is 3-4 hours away, that is also part of the deal you sign up for if you purchase a vehicle from a very small and still expanding manufacturer. It's not fair to compare Zero to Honda, BMW, Ducati, etc. They are at a very different stage in their company lifecycle, making a very different product.
I am concerned with the comments being made on this particular thread, insinuating that Zero has poor customer service because of this reason. Or worse, that current owners are telling others not to buy the bike for this reason. It appears that many Zero owners on this forum come from a long history of owning ICE motorcycles, with a plethora of 3rd party or manufacturer service manuals to assist them with repairing the bike themselves. Having decades of experience in this world, and switching over to this new motorcycle technology (with limited publicly-available service documentation) can be frustrating. But again, an owner agrees to this situation when he/she purchases the bike. I'll also point out that vehicle cost does not equate to likelihood of getting service manual... just the opposite. Do high-end car manufacturers provide detailed service manuals to owners at purchase? They expect them to take the car to the dealer, as does Zero. More on that topic in the next paragraph. Bottom line here is that older ICE converts who do most service themselves may not be Zero's target demographic. Perhaps Zero expects most owners to take it to a dealer when they have problems?...
For Zero to be successful (which we all want, I hope), their dealership network must be successful. It's hard enough for Zero to get dealerships to carry their product (this includes sales and service). If Zero started to enable all owners to fix bikes themselves, there is less incentive to attract new dealers... and they might also lose some current dealers. Not good. It's important to think about the big picture here, and what is most important for Zero to be successful. Please do not vilify Zero on Internet forums (or in word-of-mouth discussions) because they have made a business decision that may be unpopular to you. There might be long-term strategies for these business decisions that we may not be aware of, above and beyond what has been discussed here.
Last thing I want to mention is that Zero is busy, very busy. I have noticed that my e-mails to Aaron (& others at Zero) are going unanswered. This is most likely a reflection of their workload/expansion, trying to ship high quality product to meet demand. I wouldn't be surprised if Aaron gets hundreds (or thousands) of e-mails every day. Although it has been nice to have direct contact/response from Zero's Director of Customer Experience, we cannot expect this to continue as Zero expands. Suggestions and feedback may need to start going through their customer service representatives, or the old fashioned methods of snail mail or phone calls. Better yet, if you live close enough to Zero's factory, pay them a visit and discuss your concerns. If you talk to the right person (or enough people) at Zero, frustrated owners on this thread/forum may gain a different perspective on this situation.
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Hmmm
I'm not the demographic they sell to....
Live close...... In Santa cruz
They are trying to move away from individuals being at the factory from what it seems, they want me to go to service ~2 hrs away vs before right at the factory. They have always been very fair, but I don't necessarily like how every email comes from a new person there.
I will post more detail later.
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Sorry, jheth, gotta call you on a couple of points here:
Re this that you've said:
- If your closest dealer is 3-4 hours away, that is also part of the deal you sign up for if you purchase a vehicle from a very small and still expanding manufacturer -
but in the "early" days (ie when we bought our Zero, coming up on 2 years ago this month) - Zero would work with owners rather than dealers to try to resolve problems if there was no dealership in the state where the owner lived. That was our case, and Zero worked with me to sort out some of the problems we've had under warranty. Zero now moved away from that, and that change is definitely NOT the deal that I signed up for.....
Re the comments that the 2013+ products are more reliable, perhaps so. But look on Cycletrader & you'll find 2012 Zeros, new, still for sale at dealers. Maybe Zero should be pulling them from sale?
And you seem to be agreeing that an "early adopter" is an owner-as-beta-tester. One of several reasons I waited until 2012 to buy a Zero was that I thought I was buying something that had enough road experience to not be an early adopter. Particularly as Zero were selling (in some cases, in big numbers) to police fleets, I was under the (clearly incorrect) impression I was getting something for which the bugs had been sorted. Frankly, if Zero had suggested that I was an early adopter and that "All early adopters should understand and accept this risk when they buy in" I'd never have considered buying a Zero.
I'm not even going to touch the target demographic thing.
And if Zero are too busy, maybe they need to employ more workers dealing with parts supply / warranty work, and keep decent inventory of their now out-of-date (ie 3 year old) models?
Peter
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I would love a service manual. I spent easily two weeks making a basic level wiring diagram for my bike because I felt it necessary. If I had torque settings per screw I could check them on occasion like I do with my gas bike.
I guess you could go through a couple stock bikes and loosen the screws with a torque wrench and mark the values when doing it.
My big thing is I don't trust anyone to work on my bikes but me. I have heard many stories of people going to the local dealers and having them mess their bikes up. Also from reading the posts here it seems it can take months for dealers to even get parts let alone fix a bikes issue.
Hell, I would be willing to pay $1k or a class to certify me to repair the bike just to get access to the service manual. This focusing on the electrical equipment and not the mechanical which I am already familiar with.
I don't see the availability for these any time soon. I will continue to rely on the experience here and add to it when I can.
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Here's an example where service manual type information helped me on my new SR:
FIRST SCENARIO:
OK, I bought it, I ride down I-4, 80mph eats up my battery, I get lost, I stop at a rest stop.
Lots of swearing and range terror. I figure out where I am and the next exit home.
I go to start the bike. It won't start. Error 0045. Did I just break my brand new bike somehow?
I spend 20 minutes trying to figure it out. I have the old manual PDF on my phone and it DOES NOT LIST THE ERROR CODES.
Finally I decide to get it towed. I flip up the kickstand to move the bike, and error goes away! 0045 is kickstand down!
So I spend another 20 minutes swearing at it YOU GODD****D N*****LLOVING MOTHERF******G WORTHLESS NO GOOD PIECE OF S**T!
SECOND SCENARIO:
I'm in the garage and I bolt on my new smartphone mount. I go to ride to lunch. It won't start. Error 0044.
HOWEVER, this time I have the new owner's manual PDF on my phone and it DOES list the error codes. So I look up the error code and it's "kill switch disable"
Hm. Must have bumped the switch putting on the mount. Flip the switch back. Ride to lunch.
See a difference there? See what a small piece of information can do for you?
I AM NOT looking for "how to build your own Zero" - I am looking for "how to change the belt", and "how to safely change the brake fluid without pissing off the ABS" and "how to figure out minor issues that don't need to involve the dealer" and "how to determine when 'it's borked' and needs to go to the dealer"
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That's what the dealers are for. They are trained and equipped to perform the service
NO, THEY ARE NOT. I can't speak for anyone else, BUT MY DEALER HAS NO CLUE.
The "Zero guy" at my dealer has left, and nobody else even knows how to download the logs.
Every time I talk to them, they're "Called Zero. Waiting to hear back."
They can't do the most basic service tasks without Zero on the phone stepping them through.
Now when I bought the bike, they had "Curt" who seemed to know his shit. However, he's gone and apparently that means I'm fucked on getting my SR fixed.
So you're OK with this situation?
I'm not.
If your closest dealer is 3-4 hours away, that is also part of the deal you sign up for if you purchase a vehicle from a very small and still expanding manufacturer. It's not fair to compare Zero to Honda, BMW, Ducati, etc. They are at a very different stage in their company lifecycle, making a very different product.
No. If I buy a Moto-Guzzi, I understand that the nearest dealer is 95 miles away. However, I also get a service manual where I can do basic tasks and debugging without having to drag it to the dealer every other Saturday.
Do high-end car manufacturers provide detailed service manuals to owners at purchase? They expect them to take the car to the dealer, as does Zero.
I do not have a car for this specific reason. I have motorcycles that I can work on myself.
My Camaro tried to kill me when the dealer tech would not replace a wheel sensor. I looked at the OBD-II when it started randomly locking the brakes and it said "right front wheel sensor is bad-replace it"
I went to the dealer and said "please replace the right front wheel sensor"
Tech said "fuck you, I will not"
On the way home, it rained, the wheels locked, I spun out and ate Aramco going 60mph backward.
I looked at the wreckage and said "never again will I depend on a dealer tech"
Unfortunately I was blinded by the fun & joy of test riding it, and I bought my Zero without insisting on a service manual as I usually do.
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Please do not vilify Zero on Internet forums (or in word-of-mouth discussions) because they have made a business decision that may be unpopular to you. There might be long-term strategies for these business decisions that we may not be aware of, above and beyond what has been discussed here.
I honestly am starting to think I made a mistake buying one.
I feel it would be dishonest to not inform people of the cons as well as the pros that I have experienced owning the bike.
I am willing to cut Zero slack so far because they are so very small and so very busy, and their product line changes drastically every 12 months.
However, I also believe this is a reason I should have held off buying one. And so should other people, if they feel they should be able to do more than drag the bike to the dealer for every small hiccup.
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Another problem is taking it to the dealer costs money. A lot of money.
If it can't get there under its own power, I've got to pay for a tow truck.
If a $100-$150 service manual tells me I can fix the bike by turning it off and hitting reset, it's paid for itself right there.
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I had my encoder get water logged and it was causing all sorts of trouble. I seriously thought I was going to have to tow the bike. I pushed through it and drove it back home 4 miles with no clue what was going on.
Thankfully EC was the previous owner of my bike and after talking to him a bit we both decided it would be best to check the encoder or water. Sure enough ... the wires were not sealed on the inside of the now exposed motor and it was causing my issues.
Took me less than an hour to fix and I haven't had trouble since. Had I had a really good service manual for diagnosis I would have been able to figure this out on my own. Thankfully, and I am really thankful, I had EC to turn to for help fixing his previous baby.
I now experience another issue I am slowly tracking down the cause of when it rains. I have been isolating parts of the bike to figure out where water is causing an issue and getting closer to a solution.
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I would love a service manual. I spent easily two weeks making a basic level wiring diagram for my bike because I felt it necessary. If I had torque settings per screw I could check them on occasion like I do with my gas bike.
I guess you could go through a couple stock bikes and loosen the screws with a torque wrench and mark the values when doing it.
My big thing is I don't trust anyone to work on my bikes but me. I have heard many stories of people going to the local dealers and having them mess their bikes up. Also from reading the posts here it seems it can take months for dealers to even get parts let alone fix a bikes issue.
Hell, I would be willing to pay $1k or a class to certify me to repair the bike just to get access to the service manual. This focusing on the electrical equipment and not the mechanical which I am already familiar with.
I don't see the availability for these any time soon. I will continue to rely on the experience here and add to it when I can.
Do NOT try to determine torque values from loosening fasteners. That will give you a much higher torque than is proper for the part. This is due to static friction and/possibly the fastener having thread locking compound when assembled (something BMW does a lot of). The latest type of torque value recommendations call for tightening the fastener to a certain value, then rotating the wrench a specified number of degrees (such as an additional 90 degrees of rotation after reaching the specified torque). I gather this is designed to stretch the fastener a certain amount and most of these type of fasteners are not designed to be reusable. This makes it even tougher for the home mechanic to work on their own vehicle (if you want to perform the work correctly). But it is also another argument for providing (at least) a chassis service and repair manual, especially when the vehicle dealers are few and far between - and may not have a service technician any more knowledgeable than some of us old timers who learned stuff the hard way (by breaking things).
I might also add that most motorcycle dealerships do not pay their technicians very much, compared with auto dealerships and similar businesses. So they tend to have less formal education than you might think and depend upon OJT for most of their knowledge. Also, many move around from job to job as their finances and personal lives change and take their accumulated knowledge with them.
Until the technology stabilizes and matures, I think early adopters will continue to have to perform at least some tasks on their vehicles and a service manual would make that job much easier. But I have no idea how to address product liability issues. It seems like in the U.S. every possible thing that can go wrong is worth a multimillion dollar lawsuit. If you want an insurance company to insure your company against such things, they probably call the shots when it comes to facilitating an owner working on their vehicle. It could be that Zero might wish to provide owners with a service manual, but can not do so if they want product liability insurance. And insurance companies are not noted for taking risks. ::)
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Looks like the Poll sums it up pretty well... 25 yes and 0 no.
(see attachment because I don't know how to insert a picture on this forum)
As a former Zero support tech I worked hard to try to build user help guides. Workload tended to get in the way.
I would like to help out more/still but NDA agreements prevent me from doing so. Shame that it's that way.
I would recommend anyone/everyone who took the time to reply to the poll follow up with direct contact with the company.
Although there is some monitoring of this forum your best opportunity for a response or follow up is to contact the company directly.
The Zero "Contact Us" option on their main page offers several ways to get in touch. (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/contact.php (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/contact.php))
The Facebook Zero Owners Group would be a good option (for those that "do" Facebook)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/)
Good Luck.
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26 now.
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While I am certainly in favor of having some kind of access to a service manual, and it's good to count heads, the likelihood of someone saying "no" to this poll is nil. :) Whereas we've already listed for Zero their [perceived] downsides in providing one.
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Well I voted yes in the poll, but I would understand if Zero said no for a variety of reasons (liability, NDA's etc)
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FYI, the Alta (formerly BRD/Redshift) is getting a service manual.
I know this because I met Len Nelson of cyclepedia.com at an I-4 rest stop when he ran over to see my new SR. He was excited, as it was the first Zero he'd seen.
He had an Alta bike on a trailer that he had been given so he could write a service/troubleshooting/repair manual for it.
I don't know when it'll be out, but this was in January, and it takes more than 6 months to write a manual.
I just found his card in my wallet again, ten minutes ago. I'd forgotten about it.
So being an electric motorcycle and having a service manual are not mutually exclusive.
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I got a peak at Zero's service manual a few weeks ago. We used it to find the part I needed to order. It looks very professional at a glance.
I doubt there would be much effort involved in making it available to customers as a pdf or a folder containing the web browser files.
As others have said, a disclaimer should cover them.
I'm speculating here, but maybe Zero don't want to make it too easy for Chinese manufacturers to copy their designs? However, anyone attempting to do that would surely just buy a bike and take it apart?
I can't think of any other reasons not to publish it. If they didn't mind going to a little bit of effort, it could be made available via a customer portal. Easier just to provide an open link on the main website though.
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Perhaps Zero wants to provide as much after-sales income for their dealers as they can. I believe most motorcycle dealers make the majority of their business profit performing servicing on vehicles that they had sold. (At least it sure seems that way for BMW motorcycle dealers. ::) ) So maybe Zero feels that if they made it easy for their customers to work on their own bikes they wouldn't return to the retail dealer for such service, thereby depriving the dealers of a substantial chunk of after-sales income. ???