ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2012 and older => Topic started by: iSurgeon on March 31, 2015, 12:05:49 AM
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1st Post on here.
I Recently picked up a 2010 zero s with 320 miles on it for a reasonable price. The bike was always kept on a charger and barely used obviously. It ran fine but even with a fully charged and balanced pack the voltage would sag pretty bad after a 3 mile ride at 45mph. I was able to get around 20 miles of range out of it but any sustained speed over 40 mph would have the gas gauge flashing empty at me. The motor controller would groan from low volts any time I would go full throttle for more than a few seconds. They seemed to be taken care of as zero directed but were just old I guess? From dead to fully charged they bike would pull 2.85 kwh from the wall according to my kill-a watt
After researching on here and some other forums I decided to by 7 Nissan leaf cells from Nick at hybrid auto center who was very helpful. I would have liked to put more than 7. 11 would fit but it would be quite snug and would require breaking down 4 of them to reconfigure so I could still use the zero bms.
When I removed the old pack and tested the cell banks I was expecting to see some that were lower but on the fully charged pack they were all within 4mv of each other. 58v total. I wired everything up with the bikes bms wires to the new leaf cells,and charged the new battery on the bench with the battery box still open. The were all stored at 30% charge 3.75v if I remember correctly. Charged up to 58.
I re installed the pack yesterday and installed a cycle analyst at the same time.
I've only taken one test ride so far but it drives so much better. No controller groan so far.
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More pics.
Sorry they're upside down
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The cycle analyst I used is the 2.3 high current version with a 600a shunt. The speedometer sensor needed to be mounted 6mm or less from the magnet and that was not possible.
I cut off the sensor and tapped in to the factory speedo pickup. On the bike there a white , black ,and red wire. On the gauge there is white and black. White to white and black to black. Calibrated to 2180 in the cycle analyst settings to match the zero speedo. I found 58v pack voltage on a white wire in the connector on the back of the zero gauge.
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Did I read correctly, that after disassembling the stock battery pack the cells appeared to be OK? So you reassembled the pack with the original cells and on first ride it seems to be preforming normally?
I have no suggestions, except possibly some bad solder joints, but just wanted to make sure I understood the situation.
Trikester.
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No the bike now has 7 modules from the Nissan leaf in place of the 336 Molicel cells. 53v nominal 60ah. Running nice with them.
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Cycle analyst data from first test ride
Max speed 61.1mph , Avg Speed 28.1 , Time 34:34
Ride Distance 16.19Mi , Pack voltage at end 54.1 , 26.36 amp hours consumed
Watt hrs 1389.1, Watt hours per mile 85.5 , Max amps 404.2 a ,Voltage Minimum 45.9v
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Oh yea and the battery now weighs about 25lbs less with the 7 leaf packs vs the molicel
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25 pounds lighter must be quite nice. The leaf modules (2s2p) are around 500 Wh each, so you're basically at the same capacity right? Nice upgrade!
The molicel 26650s are IMO not really suitable for long life in EVs. The data sheet for these cells shows a 300 cycle count to 80%; presumably they experience calendar aging proportionally more quickly than EIG cells.
Please update as you continue to ride and tinker.
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Intrigued: my 2010 was behaving almost identically before I swapped to s 2014. A friend pulled the pack down but suggested that trying to test and replace individual cells was impossible.
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Great job iSurgeon! +1
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25 pounds lighter must be quite nice. The leaf modules (2s2p) are around 500 Wh each, so you're basically at the same capacity right? Nice upgrade!
The molicel 26650s are IMO not really suitable for long life in EVs. The data sheet for these cells shows a 300 cycle count to 80%; presumably they experience calendar aging proportionally more quickly than EIG cells.
Please update as you continue to ride and tinker.
Yes the weight savings was an unexpected bonus, helps with handling and whr/mile.
I'm not a fan of the molicels and I guess zero wasn't either. Mine have probably only seen 20 cycles or so but they are not performing from being at least 5 years old and maybe as old as 7 or 8 depending when zero bought them.
I'll post another update when I can take a longer ride. Hopefully tomorrow, it's supposed to be a nice 73 degree day here.
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Intrigued: my 2010 was behaving almost identically before I swapped to s 2014. A friend pulled the pack down but suggested that trying to test and replace individual cells was impossible.
Yea testing and replacing individual cells would be a pita.
From what I'm seeing with my pack that wouldn't have helped as all of my cells were fully charged and balanced. The just are down to about 70% of original capacity and have too much sag when big amps are asked of them.
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Great job iSurgeon! +1
Thanks :)
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Very interesting topic!
I remember i had alot of questions from people that owened some of these 2010 and 2011 S and DS requestind help from my to rebuild them a new pack.. but i have no time for that. I instead suggesting them to rebuild it with these great Nissan Leaf modules 1 or 2 years ago.
Now i see at least one have tried it!! great!!! congrat for doing it !! i was convinced that t will work. I was just not aware that these Leaf modules could fit like a glove in the original Zero box !!! wow !!
From my experience with my first Zero, a DS 2011, when i have installed the cycle analyst i got 3000Wh from full to discharged.. the rated 2.9Ah molicells was more like 2.4 to 2.5Ah in reality when drained at the C rate teh Zero require... si it was far from the advertised 4.4kWh... witch is a false calculation of the energy and was in reality 3.9kWh suposed...
This was discussed few time in the past on that forum.
I remember i had about 60Ah from teh original Zero pack with the Molicells. and had about 50-60km real range with it.
The Leaf Modules are the exact same chemistry of the molicells with is perfect for the BMS.
If i remember correctly these modules are sold about 120$ shipped per modules.. so 7 modules is about 840$... not bad for making an older Zero alive again! I remember i had calculated that with the new Zero cells the old 2010 and 2011 battery box could store about 5-6kWh in the same volume!
Doc
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Very interesting topic!
I remember i had alot of questions from people that owened some of these 2010 and 2011 S and DS requestind help from my to rebuild them a new pack.. but i have no time for that. I instead suggesting them to rebuild it with these great Nissan Leaf modules 1 or 2 years ago.
Now i see at least one have tried it!! great!!! congrat for doing it !! i was convinced that t will work. I was just not aware that these Leaf modules could fit like a glove in the original Zero box !!! wow !!
From my experience with my first Zero, a DS 2011, when i have installed the cycle analyst i got 3000Wh from full to discharged.. the rated 2.9Ah molicells was more like 2.4 to 2.5Ah in reality when drained at the C rate teh Zero require... si it was far from the advertised 4.4kWh... witch is a false calculation of the energy and was in reality 3.9kWh suposed...
This was discussed few time in the past on that forum.
I remember i had about 60Ah from teh original Zero pack with the Molicells. and had about 50-60km real range with it.
The Leaf Modules are the exact same chemistry of the molicells with is perfect for the BMS.
If i remember correctly these modules are sold about 120$ shipped per modules.. so 7 modules is about 840$... not bad for making an older Zero alive again! I remember i had calculated that with the new Zero cells the old 2010 and 2011 battery box could store about 5-6kWh in the same volume!
Doc
Doc, I paid about $950 with ups hazmat shipping .
Yesterday I ran the battery down till it wouldn't move any more. Here are the numbers.
I did drive it somewhat fast. No controller groan from low volts until the very end.
33.4 Miles 48.89ah Watt-hrs 2528.3 Amax 394.2 Vmin 41.7
Max Speed 66.3 Avg Speed 30.1mph Time 1:06:33
To Recharging took 3.62kwh from the wall according to the kill a watt.
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Doc the only slight issue I am having the last two mornings after being on the charger overnight the battery voltage is at 57.8v. It I unplug the charger and plug it back in it will charge for about 5 more minutes and be back at 58 or 58.1. When I charge at work it goes back up to 58.1v.
I was thinking of dropping the front of the battery down this weekend to check the cell voltages at the bms connector to make sure the bms is keeping them balanced. Any thoughts or recommendations on the issue?
Thx,
Tommy.
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I won't answer for Doc but my guess is that since it is sitting longer after the charger turns off at night the battery drops to the 57.8v level. In the day, after work, it has not sat as long after completing the charge so it has not had time to drop as low as during the night. Temperature differences between the day location and the night location could also be a factor.
Trikester
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Thx Trikester that sounds logical. I just assumed since the charger still pulls about 5 watts from the wall after it was done that it would keep it topped off at 58.
As an experiment I charged it all the way after I got home yesterday and then left it unplugged all night. It was at 58 when I unplugged and the same 57.8 this morning.
I'm still going to test the cell voltages this weekend to make sure they're balanced.
I think if I remove the charger and pull the bolts out of the front of the box I can lower it enough to remove the front panel and get to the bms connector. Is there any way to interface with the 2010 zero bms with a laptop? I've seen people talk about it on here with 2011 bikes but the don't mention what type of cable and software is used.
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I can't answer the question about interfacing.
But about the charging, according to what I've read from Zero, the charger shuts off at full charge and then looks at the battery every 72 hours and turns on again when needed. If my FX has been sitting a while since reaching full charge I'll unplug and plug back in to top off, a little while before starting a ride that i think may take a lot of battery capacity. However, as others have said on this forum, that "top off" goes away quite rapidly when the ride starts.
Trikester
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Congraz iSurgeon. You did a very nice job. I also have an 2011 XU, and also planning to do the same. The only thing is I am not too familiar with the electrical stuff. But according to your post, it seems it is pretty much a plug-and-play swap. I am just wondering did you need to do any special tweak to make it works with Leaf Cell? I also wonder will I need to do anything with the delta charger and the original gauge to make it works with the leaf batteries.
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I wouldn't call it plug and play but it wasn't that bad. The cells have the same nominal voltage as the molicels so the bms gauges and charger work great as is. The most difficult part was the bms individual cell wiring. I put the new battery next to the old battery on the bench and moved the wires over one at a time. Took a bunch of pictueres and tested voltage a lot to make sure I had it correct. I also tested the voltage at the bms connector before and after to make sure it was the same. The rest is just making it fit and make it neat and safe.
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Very interested in trying this out. I got a 2010 Zero S last month, too, and the batteries are pretty much shot. They cut out under hard acceleration, even when fully charged. It's only got 2k miles on it, but I'm pretty sure the previous owners didn't follow the required procedures for proper battery life.
So, do you have any more feedback on how yours is working now that you've had some time to run the new Leaf batteries for a while?
Also, do you know what the fully-charged voltage numbers were for a new mollicell pack? When I did the math, seven Leaf cells came out to 53.2 v, fully charged, according to their specs. If the original cells were 60v, wouldn't that mean that the new pack would reach minimum operating voltage sooner, limiting range?
Thanks, and please excuse my limited knowledge about this stuff.
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The nominal voltage of the molicel pack and the 7 leaf pack is approximately 53v and bothe fully charged are about 58v. That's why the factory bms seems to work well. My bike is running good still. I get between 20 and 40 miles depending on how hard I drive it and voltage sag is no longer a problem until the battery is nearly dead.
I don't think it's that the batteries were improperly cared for it's just that they are old and probably weren't the best choice for this application. My bike had only 320 miles and was always left plugged in and still had horrible voltage sag even when fully charged.
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Thanks for the quick reply. It does sound like it will be way easier to stick with 7 Leaf cell packs, so the BMS system can still be used with one wire for each cell pack. And 20 to 40 miles will work fine for me.
You mentioned that the mollicells are rated at 300 cycles to 80%. Do you know what the cycle rating is for the Leaf batteries? I couldn't find that anywhere.
Now I just need to find myself an owner's manual for this thing. Zero never put them up on the web as PDfs, it seems. Odd, since the digital files surely exist, and it would have taken 30 seconds to export a PDF and ten more minutes to post a link on the site.
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You can access the BMS via the round multi-pin connector at the back of the battery box, at least that's where it is on the 2011 S. I think you need TerraTerm or similar hyper terminal software to read it. If you do a google search or similar you may find the threads in this forum or endlesssphere where doctorbass and others posted about accessing the BMS data.
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isurgeon, you have done a great job and given many people with older bikes a practical example on how to restore their bikes once the batteries given up. In many ways restoring an electric bike is more green than manufacturing one with a limited life span.
The early models were simple and light and it must be even better with 25lbs shaved off. Shame the mileage is still quite low though but your riding does look quite spirited!
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Hello all, I just picked up a 2010 S for basically free. I'm doing the research now to fix the dead battery pack.
I have a quick question. I want to run more leaf modules. Like 11. (20-40 miles is cutting it too close for me) would it be better to run the 4 extra in a series so the amps aren't too high? Or run them in parallel and the system will only take what is needed?
Thanks folks. I'm very happy to have found this forum. I'm a big fan of alternative transpo. I currently run my 2 diesels on Biodiesel. I have an electric bicycle that gets a lot of use. However it wont do freeway speeds. Which is what I'm hoping to do with the Zero.
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The motor controller for the bike - I believe AXE 4855 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2648.0) - only accepts battery voltages up to 60V max. Since the modules are a maximum of 8.4V per, you can only use a maximum of 7 modules in series before you need to upgrade the motor controller.
You could run a second string of modules, 7 series 2 parallel for a total of 14 modules in total to give you about 7 kWh. Or if the weight/cost/size is too high, you could disassemble the modules (internally 4 cells, 2 series 2 parallel) and build a new battery pack 14 cells in series 3 in parallel (equivalent to 10.5 modules).
Or you could replace the stock motor controller with a higher voltage unit. AXE 7245 accepts up to 90V DC maximum, the Agni95 motor accepts up to 84V. So 10 modules @ 84V is as high as you could go with that controller. You'd have a higher maximum motor RPM, so you could fit a slightly larger rear sprocket to give you a bit more power while still having a useful freeway speed. In this case you would need to build a new BMS to support the higher voltage battery, and replace the charger as well.
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Option 2 is what I was thinking of doing. 7 in series 2 in parallel.
Thanks Proto.
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7kWh will give you a very good range!
If you manage to fit this on the bike please post your story because it will certainly inspire many 2010 owners to do the same.
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The nominal voltage of the molicel pack and the 7 leaf pack is approximately 53v and bothe fully charged are about 58v. That's why the factory bms seems to work well.
Just completed my Leaf battery build, along with some expert help from a friend that has 20 years of tech experience, with a heavy dose of electronics skills. The battery tested fine, but when I put everything back together, I get an error on startup. The BMS is beeping a repeating 3 beeps. The only reference I see to that error code says that it indicates a "fail sanity/Mfg. test". The pack is reading 54.3v at startup, and seems to be charging fine, but it won't drive and won't stop beeping while the ignition key is on. I'm going to leave it on the charger for 6 hours or so, and see if that makes a difference, but I'm wondering if anyone else out there has a clue on what my issue is.
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What is the sequence of beeps?
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What is the sequence of beeps?
Three long beeps, repeating. It only does it when I turn on the system, and doesn't stop until I turn it off. Also, when I took it off the charger later (with the key in the off position), I got another series of beeps. It was 5 short and then 4 long. Didn't seem to charge at all, either. It still has the same 54.3v it did before the 4 hours of charging. But the charger lights indicate 80% charge (absorption phase), so it might be in trickle charge mode.
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Well, after a 9-hour charging session, the voltage actually dropped to 54.2v, so the BMS is probably keeping it from charging as well as running. Odd that the charger lights indicated that it was charging, though. It seems like there must be a reset for the BMS, to get it to accept a new battery. Guess it's time to take the battery back out and check everything again...
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The BMS should be happy with that kind of voltage. Perhaps a comm problem?
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Yeah. All I can do is pull the battery back out, break it down and see, but I don't think it's a comm issue. All the connectors look great, and all are hooked up to the same ones they were before. I guess I might have to try contacting Zero if I can't find the problem, and see if they can diagnose the problem.
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Does anyone know who makes the BMS in the 2010 Zero S? Not sure why I didn't think of it earlier, but maybe if I contact the BMS manufacturer, they can tell me how to reset the damn thing. Still no response from Zero. Not sure why...if they don't want to deal with it, all they had to do was say so.
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Likely it is a custom board produced by Zero.
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Does anyone know who makes the BMS in the 2010 Zero S? Not sure why I didn't think of it earlier, but maybe if I contact the BMS manufacturer, they can tell me how to reset the damn thing. Still no response from Zero. Not sure why...if they don't want to deal with it, all they had to do was say so.
Have you tried giving them a call instead of a email?
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Yes, I called first, and their tech support person didn't have an answer for me with the older bikes. He was the one who said to contact via email and they would forward it to the right expert.
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Three long beep. BMS doesn't like the power pack on start up.
"( BMS Appendix
There are other beeps which may occur under two
circumstances that operators will normally never see.
Unlike many electronic systems, the BMS essentially
never “power cycles.†A typical BMS is powered-on
only once, in the factory, when it is connected to the
wiring-harness inside the power pack. It may quite
possibly operate continuously for years without ever
being powered-down.
But on that one occasion when it is first powered-on,
the BMS will perform a simple sanity check and
report the result with a beep pattern. Note that this
sanity check (and the resulting beep patterns) is
different from the key on self-test. The sanity test (and
the beeps) happens immediately when the board is
first powered-up (connected to a power pack).
During service or maintenance, the BMS-board may
be disconnected from and then reconnected to the
power pack wiring harness. In those cases, the BMS
will perform the sanity check (and result-beeps) every
time it is plugged-in.
6-6
PATTERN WHEN MEANING
2 Short Pwr-on M-cmd Pass Sanity/ Mfg.test
3 Long Pwr-on M-cmd Fail Sanity/ Mfg.test
It is possible to encounter the sanity check result errorbeeps
from a badly-malfunctioning or damaged power
pack. If so, the user should return the power pack to
Zero for repair or replacement. )"
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As you are building your own battery pack, would it not be better to build or purchase a BMS tailored to the new battery pack?
Using a BMS that's not designed for the pack and battery chemistry seems like a recipe for failure/firey doom to me.
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As you are building your own battery pack, would it not be better to build or purchase a BMS tailored to the new battery pack?
Using a BMS that's not designed for the pack and battery chemistry seems like a recipe for failure/firey doom to me.
I don't know enough about electrical systems and BMS modules to figure all that out. But according to others earlier in this thread, the battery chemistry, voltage and AH rating are all identical to the original Mollicells, so it should have been a straight swap.
Zero did eventually get back to me, saying they don't support non-stock modifications, and suggested I refer my questions to the message boards like this one. So...the can has been kicked down the road, as expected. If anyone knows someone (or some shop) in the California SF Bay area that does this kind of modification, I'd love to get that information. At this point, I've given up and I'm ready to turn it over to someone who actually knows what they're doing, which isn't me.
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A quick Q for iSurgeon:
Did you use a preassembled 7-module pack like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Li-Ion-53V-48V-Golf-Cart-Pack-Battery-Module-EV-60AH-58-8V-NISSAN-Leaf/262027761321?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Db61ed0a70cde46978f89257deabe1338%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D261945418558 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Li-Ion-53V-48V-Golf-Cart-Pack-Battery-Module-EV-60AH-58-8V-NISSAN-Leaf/262027761321?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Db61ed0a70cde46978f89257deabe1338%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D261945418558)
Or buy individual modules and make your own series pack? What about the BMS they mention in the listing?
Mike
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A quick Q for iSurgeon:
Did you use a preassembled 7-module pack like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Li-Ion-53V-48V-Golf-Cart-Pack-Battery-Module-EV-60AH-58-8V-NISSAN-Leaf/262027761321?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Db61ed0a70cde46978f89257deabe1338%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D261945418558 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Li-Ion-53V-48V-Golf-Cart-Pack-Battery-Module-EV-60AH-58-8V-NISSAN-Leaf/262027761321?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Db61ed0a70cde46978f89257deabe1338%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D261945418558)
Or buy individual modules and make your own series pack? What about the BMS they mention in the listing?
Mike
I Bought 7 leaf cells from nick at hybrid auto center in vegaS . He included straps to wire them in series and wires to run back to thew zero bms. I had the benefit of being able to measure the voltages at the bms connector since my battery was still operational but suffering from extreme voltage sag. I made sure the bms wires were seeing the same voltage on the new pack as they were seeing on the old pack. My bike now has about 1400 miles on it since the conversion and is still running great.
I don't have time to walk anyone through the process but anyone who would like the pics I took during the process emailed to them send me a message with your email and I'll get them to you.
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A quick Q for iSurgeon:
Did you use a preassembled 7-module pack like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Li-Ion-53V-48V-Golf-Cart-Pack-Battery-Module-EV-60AH-58-8V-NISSAN-Leaf/262027761321?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Db61ed0a70cde46978f89257deabe1338%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D261945418558 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Li-Ion-53V-48V-Golf-Cart-Pack-Battery-Module-EV-60AH-58-8V-NISSAN-Leaf/262027761321?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Db61ed0a70cde46978f89257deabe1338%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D261945418558)
Or buy individual modules and make your own series pack? What about the BMS they mention in the listing?
Mike
Yes that is basically what I bought , and that is who I bought it from but there is still skill required. It's not plug and play by any means.
Tommy.
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Copy that, Tommy -
I totally get that we are not talking "plug and play" here. The main things are: the form factor of the pack .... does it fit in the space? ; the voltage and current delivery capability; and the interface with the existing Zero controller hardware/firmware/software. I'm thinking particularly about the BMS here .......
This is all blue sky for me at the moment, looking ahead to the inevitable battery problems with a 2011 Zero S and trying to see a clear upgrade path.
Thanks,
Mike
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Finally got mine up and running. Never got the old BMS to work again, but that was probably a failure of the BMS. I had a new BMS built, with 14 leads instead of 7, and it's working great, at least, on the riding side. There are voltage and chemistry differences between the stock battery and the new one, though, so I still need to reprogram the charger for the new stats. I'm definitely not getting a full charge with the current charger configuration. As soon as I start out, it drops down to around 60% on the gauge, right away, then runs down slowly to empty.
I've heard that you can get a laptop interface for connecting to the charger, which allows them to reprogram the charging rate and maximum voltage. Then you can download the software for the charger from the company and reprogram it. Need to find someone in the SF Bay area that can do that for me. Once that's done, the bike should be better than new.
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did you ever get this figured out? I have a dead 2010DS I'd like to get fixed up.
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this guy has 2018 leaf modules for sale which are 50% higher density
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=103183
but he will not ship :(