ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: oobflyer on April 03, 2015, 12:35:14 AM
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This was mentioned in other threads - thought I'd start a separate one dedicated to this issue, in case others are experiencing the same problems.
When I picked up my new bike a couple of months ago I noticed a vibration from the front wheel that occurs specifically while using the front brake and specifically while the bike is slowing down between 20 MPH and 5 MPH. Along with this vibration is a 'click' or a 'clunk' sound just before coming to a complete stop. I found information here on the forum about the steering head bolt/bearings - and confirmed it with a motorcycle mechanic friend of mine before taking the bike back to the dealership. The dealership tightened the steering head bolt and the 'clunk' sound is better (It still occurs on hard stops), but the vibration is still there exactly as before.
Meanwhile - I started using the rear brake more than before - to try to put less stress on the front brakes (less vibration). However, when I started using the rear brakes more aggressively I noticed a loud scraping sound while slowing down from about 5 MPH to a stop. I'm not sure if this is something new, or something I just didn't notice before. Could it be the new brake pads just not 'boken in' yet? OR could it have to do with the ABS system? I never had a bike with ABS before.
Incidentally - I've ridden all kinds of bikes during my 45 yrs of riding and I've never had these kinds of problems - it's puzzling and a bit frustrating.
In any case I've taken it back to the dealership twice now - no luck. I'm taking it back again this weekend for a third try. I'll post results here.
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A clicking or clunking sound or feeling when braking to a stop is caused by loose steering bearings in my experience. I would say that your dealer still needs to further adjust the bearings to rid you of this noise. Hopefully, his mechanic knows the proper way of adjusting the bearings.
ABS when activated will result in a rapid pulsing of the brake pedal/lever and can be a scary feeling when you experience it for the first time. But I wouldn't call it a "vibration" more like a pulsing feeling at the lever and you don't hear a sound when this is happening.
A scraping noise could be caused by metallic brake pads that have not yet completely conformed to the brake disc. ???
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If you slam on the front or rear you will feel the ABS.
Try slamming on the rear like you want to lock it up and slide the rear. Compare that feeling to what you had in the front.
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These sound very similar to what I experience in my 14 DS. I've been through a series of things; new pads, chamfering the edges, degreasing, re torquing the disk.. No change. I'm actually starting to think it's a caliper alignment issue on the front. It's only annoying and at low speed but makes a horrible noise. The rear sounds like a squeak. My next test is to fully disassemble the calipers clean and polish. As for the clonk, I tried isolating all body work and that helped a bit. It sounds like steering head bearings but they are tight. Perplexed.
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This will probably sound foolish but who knows? It might be helpful.
When my 2014 SR was new, over a year ago, it had a slight banging sound when I went over bumps. No big deal, and it didn't get any worse...until I hit a big bump hard one day. Then it did get worse, and continued getting worse afterwards. I finally discovered (lying on my back on the ground) that the lower end of the headlight bracket had two bolt holes in it, but no bolts! Also, no marks indicating bolts had ever been in them -- the finish was still pristine. Clearly they hadn't been installed at the factory. The bracket had some spring tension in it, which normally kept it quiet except over bumps, but the big bump obviously bent it slightly and it started knocking around.
So you've probably already done it, but be sure you've gone over everything on the front end thoroughly, and get a wrench on everything. If they can overlook mounting bolts in a headlight bracket, there's no telling what else might get overlooked.
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Great point and this was my suspicion too. Not in my case although I re-torqued everything to be sure.
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Along with this vibration is a 'click' or a 'clunk' sound just before coming to a complete stop. I found information here on the forum about the steering head bolt/bearings - and confirmed it with a motorcycle mechanic friend of mine before taking the bike back to the dealership. The dealership tightened the steering head bolt and the 'clunk' sound is better (It still occurs on hard stops), but the vibration is still there exactly as before.
Something I forgot to mention in my previous post about the front end vibration, I would get a 'clunk' sound similar to what you described but it would happen randomly during my rides (it was pretty scary, at first I thought it might have been the frame). Your problem sounds too similar to what I had for it to be coincidence... I had my mechanic further tighten the head bearings recently and it makes a huge difference in handling, let alone braking. Something that might help diagnose your problem, I was able to visualize movement within the neck of the bike while going slowly downhill over speed bumps - that reinforced the head bearing diagnosis for me and more importantly my mechanic. If tightening doesn't help, they should try replacing the bearings.
Good luck!
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Here are a couple of random comments:
When I received my Zero from the factory, the steering head bearings were very tight and resulted in slow but stable steering. They were much too tight from my bearing adjustment experience, so I bought a huge socket set and loosened the bearing tension by 1/4 turn. While the steering was still too tight compared with other motorcycles, it seems to work well in practice and I have left it tensioned like that. Now after about 6K miles the bearings have loosened up a bit and they now feel normal, plus my 2014 bike is much more stable going around bumpy turns than was my 2012 S. I do not get any clunking or vibration from my front end. So it would appear that the Zero design can accommodate a tighter than typical steering bearing preload.
Regarding clunking: When the bike first came out the BMW F800GS (which has cheap non-adjustable Showa upside-down forks) crowd was complaining that there was a lot of clunking noise coming from the fork when riding over bumps. Eventually, the noise was tracked down to some sort of plastic part in the forks that was making the noise. After the first model year complaints about the noise from new owners has gone away. I assume that means that the offending plastic part in the forks has also gone away. ::)
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That's another good point; I spoke to a zero rep who said the internals in the DS forks do have a bit of propensity to clonk a bit, similar to your description.
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I took the bike back to the dealership on Saturday. They checked the brakes (pads, rotor) and found nothing out of spec. The service manager apologized (again) and promised that they will fix it somehow - even if it means replacing the whole front end of the bike.
The clunk is back every time I stop.
ABS when activated will result in a rapid pulsing of the brake pedal/lever
I think I feel this - if I ride without gloves and lightly apply the front brakes I feel a high-frequency, subtle vibration. This is barely noticeable and doesn't bother me at all. But the vibration that I'm complaining about is more more significant - its literally shakes the front end of the bike back and forth once I slow down to about 20 MPH. This I cannot live with.
As far as the ABS being activated - I've never had a bike with ABS - is it activated each time you brake - or only when braking aggressively?
A scraping noise could be caused by metallic brake pads that have not yet completely conformed to the brake disc
This would explain the sound I hear from the rear brake. I asked this question of the service manager at the dealership - he seemed to feel that any "breaking-in" should already be done since I have over 1,000 miles on the bike, but I'll keep an eye on it to see if it diminishes with time.
Try slamming on the rear like you want to lock it up and slide the rear
I did test the rear ABS - it works - no lock-up of the rear wheel. But there is no vibration at all from the rear, just that scraping sound when the bike comes to a stop.
So, I'm back to waiting. The service manager promised to call Zero tomorrow and let me know what parts need to be ordered - when I have to bring the back, etc.
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If it is operating properly, the ABS system should not activate unless you really slam on the brakes to the point that the tire would skid without ABS. Braking normally, you should not be aware of the ABS system. When the ABS system activates you should feel a very rapid pulsing through the brake lever. I can think of no explanation for the symptoms that you are experiencing when braking to a stop. ???
If you ever find out what is causing your problem please let us know what it was and how it was repaired.
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... I noticed a vibration from the front wheel that occurs specifically while using the front brake and specifically while the bike is slowing down between 20 MPH and 5 MPH. Along with this vibration is a 'click' or a 'clunk' sound just before coming to a complete stop. I found information here on the forum about the steering head bolt/bearings - and confirmed it with a motorcycle mechanic friend of mine before taking the bike back to the dealership. The dealership tightened the steering head bolt and the 'clunk' sound is better (It still occurs on hard stops), but the vibration is still there exactly as before.
I just hit 1700 miles on my 2015 SR, and I've recently started experiencing the same issue. I wasn't so quick to identify it as a steering head that needed tightening because it didn't exhibit any noticeable play when I locked the front brake and firmly rocked the bike fore and aft. I inspected everything on the front end that I could think of, looking for a loose fastener or too much play, and never found it (I was highly suspicious of the brake because of what I write below). After finding this thread, I decided to have a go at tightening the steering head a bit anyway. $60 later in tools (I didn't happen to have a 1-5/8" wrench or socket handy, and there's not enough room to get a crescent wrench in there properly), I had it firmed up. Still a tiny bit of clunking under braking/hitting bumps, but think I've improved it. I'll ride it to work again tomorrow and see how it feels. I may have to give it one more round of tightening.
One reason I was slow to diagnose it is that I too have squealing, pulsating, front brakes. My dealer (170 miles away) beveled the pads when I first complained of this at my 600 mile service, but it came back within a few days. And the pulsation... it's not in sync with wheel rotations - that is, it happens quicker than that - so I don't think it's simply a warped rotor. Or if it is, it's found a creative way to warp. It may be in sync with the rotor bolts. I'm not sure about that, yet.
... I started using the rear brake more than before ... I noticed a loud scraping sound while slowing down from about 5 MPH to a stop.
I first noticed this recently - with earplugs and a helmet on, it sounded more like water sloshing around than a scrape. Eventually, I noticed it was connected to the rear brake, which I often don't use much of (or sometime any of). A test ride without anything interfering with my hearing revealed is was a kind of grindy/scrapy noise, but not like the crazy grinding sound you get when your pads are no longer pads, but pieces of steel. More use of the rear brake seemed to make it go away. Maybe just a touch of rust build-up? I assume it'll be back.
Incidentally - I've ridden all kinds of bikes during my 45 yrs of riding and I've never had these kinds of problems - it's puzzling and a bit frustrating.
I don't have near that much saddle time, but I've probably done about 60k-70k miles in the last decade. BMWs and Hondas, mostly. No, almost entirely. A touch of other peoples' Yamahas. The Zero just lacks the great feel I get from the others. I'm not saying the others were perfect, but they felt much better built. This feels a bit like a beefed up mountain bike in comparison. Sure isn't priced like one. Granted, Honda and BMW have as many decades of experience as Zero has years. Still, I'm very frustrated, tempered by a touch of "I expected a bit of this by being an early adopter."
Has anyone who has had the squealing front brake (embarrassingly squealy, as another poster pointed out) found a permanent fix for it?
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Not having any experience with a Zero, my Monster 750 makes a scraping sound from the brakes when going slow and the brakes are not applied too hard. As intended in the design, the disk pads ride on the rotor to some extent and some scraping action naturally occurs when the vehicle is moving. When going slow enough, I can hear the scraping sound emanating from the wheels of my bike. It's very possible that if it is a scraping sound with no or very light application of the brakes, it is just the sound of the disk pads riding on the disk and encountering natural scrapping; the material of the disk compound could also be metallic which would definitely cause a scrapping sound.
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Squeaky rear brakes, on a motorbike? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked.
Joking aside, if you google around you'll see its a problem thats as common as muck, and can hit any bike at any time. Problem is you can hear the problem much more on electric bikes due to the lack of exhaust noise.
Even if you buy the best, the fecking feckers will still squeak if they feel like it ( http://www.thespeedtriple.com/forum/speed-triple-1050-05-10-11/10458-squeaky-brembos.html (http://www.thespeedtriple.com/forum/speed-triple-1050-05-10-11/10458-squeaky-brembos.html) )
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Ah, for the old days of good old-fashioned asbestos. ::)
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Some old BMW air-head motorcycles (no doubt using asbestos brake shoes) used to squeal loudly, too. There were a number of solutions used, such as beveling the edges of the brake shoes, but I think the ultimate solution was the brake manufacturers finding brake shoe (or pad) materials that didn't squeal when applied against the brake drum/disc materials used by brake manufacturers in those days.
Auto accessory stores have anti-squeal compounds that can be applied to the backside of brake pads, which are supposed to dampen the squeal. My guess is that the noise is coming from the all-metallic brake pads that are currently being used by most brake manufacturers when they are lightly rubbing against the disc. It could also be the result of the brake pad picking up some foreign material, which has lodged in the surface of the pad.
I have had success in not experiencing this noise by cleaning my disc and brake caliper with a sponge and soapy water, washing off with a light stream of water from a garden hose, and then drying with a towel and compressed air. I do this every time I wash my bikes and have not experienced any brake noise since I have been keeping the brake systems clean.
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Ah, for the old days of good old-fashioned asbestos. ::)
Never *wheeze* did me any *cough* harm...
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Ah, for the old days of good old-fashioned asbestos. ::)
Never *wheeze* did me any *cough* harm...
nor I.
(https://scontent-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/66358_1691083636446_7861366_n.jpg?oh=7ca99ed0034614646bae1fcbab934aeb&oe=55A8E7E1)
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Problem is you can hear the problem much more on electric bikes due to the lack of exhaust noise.
This makes sense - and the scraping noise I can live with.
As far as the shaking from the front - the latest news:
Neither Zero nor the dealership knows what the cause is, so Zero shipped a new wheel and disc rotor to see if that fixes it. I'll be taking the bike to the dealership for the service - either this Saturday, or next - as soon as I can.
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I first noticed this recently - with earplugs and a helmet on, it sounded more like water sloshing around than a scrape. Eventually, I noticed it was connected to the rear brake, which I often don't use much of (or sometime any of). A test ride without anything interfering with my hearing revealed is was a kind of grindy/scrapy noise, but not like the crazy grinding sound you get when your pads are no longer pads, but pieces of steel. More use of the rear brake seemed to make it go away. Maybe just a touch of rust build-up? I assume it'll be back.
I have also heard the sloshing sound when applying the rear brake but I thought it sounded too crazy to bring up here. It's the weirdest noise. Any new ideas on what is causing it?
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Problem is you can hear the problem much more on electric bikes due to the lack of exhaust noise.
This makes sense - and the scraping noise I can live with.
As far as the shaking from the front - the latest news:
Neither Zero nor the dealership knows what the cause is, so Zero shipped a new wheel and disc rotor to see if that fixes it. I'll be taking the bike to the dealership for the service - either this Saturday, or next - as soon as I can.
Hey Oobflyer, I think you got your SR at Contra Costa Powersports didn't you? Let me know when you will be there and if I'm free I'll stop by and say hello. I live just a few miles from the dealership.
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I've got all these issues one '14. I've tried almost everything possible, except overhauling the calipers, which I'll do. I'm with all of you though - it's annoying disappointing not what I expected but ultimately, they work well, especially under hard braking. That's the main thing.
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My '15 DS has the horrible sounding rear brake too. its only under 5-10mph and It was fine for the first 400mi or so, but after a hard section of twisties that warmed things up alot, it started making the grindy/squealy/squeaky noise too. It goes away if you really warm them up, but comes right back when they cool off. I am thinking they are glazed. Ill pull mine, and take an orbital sander with some 80- grit to the rotor, and resurface the pads too to let them re-wear in. I will update when I do it.
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My '15 DS has the horrible sounding rear brake too
The more I hear that others are experiencing this - the more I think it's normal. I think Justin is right - on a gas bike you don't hear the brakes scraping because the sound of the motor & exhaust mask it.
As far as the front wheel vibration on my 2015 SR... they replaced the entire front wheel - rim/tire/brake disc... and it didn't fix it. It seemed improved a bit when I rode it around the dealership, but by the time I got home (70 mile ride) the front end was vibrating and shaking back and forth again each time I slowed down using the front brake. As I mentioned before it only happens below 20 MPH, so it's not an issue on the freeway, just every time I come to a stop, or slow below 20 MPH.
I'm not one to whine and complain usually, but I spent a lot of money on this thing. I'll call the dealership again tomorrow to see what the next step might be.
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Hey Oobflyer, I think you got your SR at Contra Costa Powersports didn't you? Let me know when you will be there and if I'm free I'll stop by and say hello. I live just a few miles from the dealership.
Yes, that's where I got the bike - and that's where I've been spending my Saturdays ever since... if/when I head back that way I'll send you a P.M.
But, interestingly - Zero JUST added a new dealership in Elk Grove (Elk Grove Power Sports), which is 25 miles from my house, instead of 70. I plan to call both dealerships to see if I can take my bike to the new dealership in the future.
What I found when I bought my Zero in February in Concord was that the salesmen and service techs were scheduled for orientation and training about the bikes in March. No offense intended towards them, but they literally knew nothing about the bikes when they first started selling them in January. I imagine the same is true for the new dealership in Elk Grove. When I call them I will ask the manager there when they are scheduled for their training and orientation before I bring my bike there.
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My rear wheel used to squeal like a piggy below 15km/h - super embarrassing at the lights etc.
After about 5000km the squeal went away.
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Probably not applicable, but this applies to performance disc brake systems in general.
Sometimes brake noise can be attenuated by bedding the brakes when they are fresh. This is normally done for competition purposes.
The goal is to get the brake pads to deposit a thin layer of compound on the rotor without getting rotor excessively hot.
Different mfr's suggest different methods. I normally go from 60mph to 10mph with medium pressure, not enough for ABS to vibrate, but a fairly aggressive application. Do this about 30 times, never coming to a complete stop. When they start to bed, you will feel the brakes getting spongy. Hard to describe, but it will feel like the brakes need to be bled. Then cruise easy for 5 miles using the brakes lightly or not at all before parking. Let them cool completely.
While this often decreases brake noise, the real goal is to get maximum braking power. Next time you ride, you will notice the difference.
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I have also heard the sloshing sound when applying the rear brake but I thought it sounded too crazy to bring up here. It's the weirdest noise. Any new ideas on what is causing it?
Wow! Lots of good info since I last checked in - gotta make sure I tick the 'notify me' option...
I don't know that we need any new ideas - there's no doubt that in my case the 'sloshing water' was actually the rear brake making odd sounds. It still does it from time to time, but it doesn't weird me out anymore. It's not too loud or annoying, just very strange.
To be clear (for the thread's sake) the rear brake wasn't my 'annoying' brake. It was the front, and I'm not talking about a little scraping, I'm talking about full-on rotor-ringing (or wringing) squeal that makes people 50 feet away sit up and take notice. It doesn't happen on every stop.
Richard - the dealer did try the beveling trick you mention on my 600mile service. It worked for a few days, but I don't want to keep grinding them off :). I've been meaning to try the compound you put on the back of the pads - not the greasy stuff - the stuff that dries. I just haven't got a round tuit, yet. The idea about washing the bike (and brakes) is intriguing... People actually do that? I get caught in the rain enough that I thought that was all you had to do! ;)
More seriously, lately, I haven't had much grief from my brakes. The squeaking and scraping seems to be dying down (I'm at 2200 miles now. I think.)
I have, on the other hand, gone through three rounds of tightening my head bearings (a little tighter, each time, cautiously) That has helped with the other problem I mentioned toward the front of this thread. It's a bit of a PITA, without a center-stand, but I've kinda developed a system. About the time I perfect the system, I'll probably get it adjusted well enough that I won't need the system, and I can give it away. :D
Most recently, I've developed a fresh, new, set of problems. http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4567.msg30136#msg30136 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4567.msg30136#msg30136) - it's a bit off-topic for this thread.
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My YZF-750 used to have that sort of rear brake squeal, in my case it was caused by a tight caliper piston not moving fully back when the brakes were depressed. Have you tried greasing the piston with copper brake grease?. Or popping it, cleaning it up, and re-assembling the brake (sod of a job I know)
This sort of brake squeal is fairly common and shows up now and again, try searching around generic bike forums as well as here, as no doubt you'll find a few people who have had the same problem.
Anyway, this sort of brake rubbing is worth fixing, as in extreme circumstances the friction can heat up the caliper and oil and cause the brake to start to lock on.
Not fatal, but VERY annoying, in that sitting-at-the-side-of-the-road-waiting-for-your-brakes-to-cool-so-you-can-then-ride-slowly-home-to-try-and-fix-the-stupid-things sort of way.
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I was visiting the local auto accessory store yesterday and noticed several liquid compounds on the shelf that were said to prevent brake squeal of auto disc brakes. I have no idea how they work or if they do, but they were pretty cheap and are probably worth a look-see. ???
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My SR is headed back to the factory.
The dealership actually sent a truck/trailer to pick the bike up so I did't have to make another 70 mile trip back to Concord. I was told that Zero will pick the bike up from the dealership this week, bring it to the factory to try to find out what is causing the front to shake when I brake, then return it to the dealership. I'm not sure if they will deliver it back to my house or not, but they said i won't get it back for a couple of weeks.
Luckily I still have my Vectrix :-)
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I'm not one to whine and complain usually, but I spent a lot of money on this thing. I'll call the dealership again tomorrow to see what the next step might be.
Have your dealer ask Zero support if there could be an issue with the Steering tube bearings on your 2015 Zero.
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Have your dealer ask Zero support if there could be an issue with the Steering tube bearings on your 2015 Zero.
That's the first thing they did - tighten the steering head bolts. It didn't help. But the symptoms correlate with a loose steering head bolt/bearings. Maybe they have a better way to tighten them at the factory.
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Have your dealer ask Zero support if there could be an issue with the Steering tube bearings on your 2015 Zero.
That's the first thing they did - tighten the steering head bolts. It didn't help. But the symptoms correlate with a loose steering head bolt/bearings. Maybe they have a better way to tighten them at the factory.
I do not believe it is a matter of tightness of the steering headset assembly.
It sounds like an issue with the headset bearing fitment/installation.
I presume the factory will remove and replace the headset bearings.
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Have your dealer ask Zero support if there could be an issue with the Steering tube bearings on your 2015 Zero.
That's the first thing they did - tighten the steering head bolts. It didn't help. But the symptoms correlate with a loose steering head bolt/bearings. Maybe they have a better way to tighten them at the factory.
I do not believe it is a matter of tightness of the steering headset assembly.
It sounds like an issue with the headset bearing fitment/installation.
I presume the factory will remove and replace the headset bearings.
I agree. The steering bearings could be defective. It does happen, especially if they are not sourced from a name-brand supplier. I had a set of steering bearings fail on my 1997 BMW Funduro after 8K miles and the BMW replacement bearings (they were replaced under warranty) only had a wholesale list price of $5 and were made in Bulgaria. :o
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If the headtube has slop that comes back after tightening it repeatedly, my bet is either someone did not press the bearing all the way in, the bearing seat in the frame is not properly machined/has a machining burr, Or that someone put a part is upside down and that part is crushing slowly. Either way, dissasembly and reassembly should find the culprit.
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Yup that is exactly what is happening with my bike, tightened it twice each time improved the vibration but only temporarily. I have seen a number of posts with others having the same problem, it seems more systematic than a random error by the guy on the assembly line...
I hope it won't require a factory fix, that would be a serious drag since the bike is my only mode of transport. I spoke to the importer about replacing the bearings, hopefully that will be the end of it.
oobflyer - please update us when you hear back from zero/your dealer regarding the source of the problem. Thanks!!!
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So the head bearings were replaced after a few hours of downtime at the shop and after about a week of riding it looks like I can say problem solved!
Feels like a whole new bike, no vibration, no slop, smoother steering... :)
Interesting, I took the dealer's SR to do some acceleration runs on it and interestingly the demo bike also has a loose steering head assembly! I let him know though I'm surprised no one complained about it yet...
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I got my bike back from the factory at the end of April, but there was no improvement with the front wheel 'wobble'. I rode it for a few weeks, hoping that it still might be a brake embedding issue, despite having over 3,000 miles on it - but it never improved.
Meanwhile, one day a couple of weeks ago I pulled the bike out of the garage, turned the key on, twisted the throttle, and... nothing. I had to drive the 4-wheeled internal combustion engine gas guzzler (Toyota Prius) to work.
So back to the factory it went.
They had it for over a week - but I think they got it right this time.
They replaced the front brake disc (again) - which seems to have fixed the front wheel 'wobble' (finally!) I rode it for twenty miles this evening - testing the front brake - so far so good.
And - the bike logs showed a problem with the BMS board - so they replaced that. Hopefully I won't have to drive the 4-wheeler again.
One note of caution that may or may not have to do with my BMS problem: If you charge with the off-board Delta-Q Quic charger - you have to make sure that the onboard charger is plugged in FIRST before connecting the off board charger(s). This engages the 'contactor' so the bike 'knows' it's starting a charge. This is not in the owner's manual, apparently, but probably will be in future editions.
I'm doing a 60+ mile ride tomorrow - if I have any problems I'll let you know. Otherwise, no news is good news. :)
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I've put another 300 miles or so on my SR since I got it back from the factory - it's running perfectly - no vibrations, no glitch, just unplug and fly.
I'm planning to ride a 350 mile ride on the 4th of July weekend - should be fun.
Hopefully more Zero riders can join the ride!
http://corbin.com/rally/vec.shtml (http://corbin.com/rally/vec.shtml)
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I understand you, the Prius is sooooo boring to drive !