ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Electric Cowboy on September 25, 2015, 11:38:51 AM
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Hypothetically speaking here, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour how much would you pay for the charger?
Also some things to keep in mind about this hypothetical charger, it fits under a power tank shell, weighs a little less than a power tank and can plug into any j1772 or Mennekes station. It would probably have a loud fan, but not for long because it charges so fast.
Hypothetically that is. In no way shape or form am I saying that I am working on or have anything like this installed and or am testing in my bike right now. That would be just plain crazy talk.
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How badly would this void my warranty and/or set the whole bike on fire? :)
Cheers
--G
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It all depends on how much hypothetical kW it could deliver.
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I'm guessing this hypothetical charger is a bit more powerful than the prototype charge tank you had built a while back.
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This sounds like good noncommittal news. Judging from parts expenses for assembling a weather proof charger, $1800 seems fine to me. I'm concerned about NEMA 14-50 and CHAdeMO being adaptable of course.
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Since SAE wasn't mentioned I will also assume this could be done with standard J1772 L2 infrastructure (ie 240vdc @ 30amps) we find all over the US.
A hypothetical charger capable of 1C > charging (even if you were to rewire the pack voltage temporarily for the charge) is worth more than a "power tank" module in my book. With 1C charging alone you could easily do an iron butt and still have hours left in the day to spare (I know I did the calculations a while back)
IF, and note it is a big IF, zero came out with a "charger tank" solution which allowed me to charge that fast I would expect the price to be a little above a power tank given it has extra peripherals.
Now that said two J1772's could provide a 1C charge for a DIY solution around $2000 but that is doing all the work yourself and it wouldn't even be water resistant or work in humid environments. You would also need to be able to find two J1772 or 14-50 circuits right next to each other in the wild and not in use by other vehicles to do it. (this isn't practical even for me near DC which is why I only have "half" of this solution built)
To me this would be worth more than any CHAdeMO solution given the infrastructure is far larger. I would be willing to pay $3500 for this. But I don't know if it can be profitable at even this price point.
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This sounds like good noncommittal news. Judging from parts expenses for assembling a weather proof charger, $1800 seems fine to me. I'm concerned about NEMA 14-50 and CHAdeMO being adaptable of course.
Brain the old 2013 S CHAdeMO solution from zero cost $1800 not installed (when you could still buy it). There is a third party trying to make their own CHAdeMO solution to sell for $2500 ... if what is proposed could be done on J1772 I doubt it could cost less than $2000 less you know of some chargers I am unaware of.
I have built a 5000w charger for about $1000 ... That is J1772 connector / circuit, wires / adaptors / extension, chargers, schottky diodes etc. It requires one J1772 in order for it to work and takes 2 hours to charge the bike from near zero to 90%. Oh, and it isn't water resistant.
One Elcon 2500 cost $850 not programmed, setup to accept J1172, or hook to your bike. You would need 2 of these to achieve my DIY solution above plus the connectors. So for 5000w your looking at $1700 for chargers alone and another $200 for extras so lets round it to $2000 ... or $4000 for a 10000w solution and you need two J1772's to plug into.
5000w is a .5C charge rate. We are talking about a 1C+ charge rates without DC FAST charging (correct me if I am wrong EC)
This wouldn't be a direct to battery solution (like CHAdeMO) where the chargers are EXTERNAL to the vehicle requiring minimal parts and programming, it would have to be a solution where the chargers are INTERNAL to the vehicle. Such chargers are not cheap for the outputs needed to produce a 1C, or greater, charge rate.
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If I'm already going to a station because I need a proprietary plug why would I want an expensive charger on my bike? All the charging equipment needs to be at the station ready to go. We don't carry an oil refinery on our cars we let someone else handle that we get it all ready to go in the form of gas. The key is a standard of charging which may be years away and may still change a few times after that. That Lightning 218 supposedly charged fully in less then 20 mins for his land speed record run by going DC/DC at very high voltage which is great but it can kill you real quick if it goes wrong.
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New2Elec, what you are describing is DC>DC charging, the rumor mill is that Zero are working on it, I would hope they are aiming for CCS instead of CHaDemo as CCS is compatible with J1772 sockets. Indeed that's the route that Energica have gone down with the Ego.
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This sounds like good noncommittal news. Judging from parts expenses for assembling a weather proof charger, $1800 seems fine to me. I'm concerned about NEMA 14-50 and CHAdeMO being adaptable of course.
Brain the old 2013 S CHAdeMO solution from zero cost $1800 not installed (when you could still buy it). There is a third party trying to make their own CHAdeMO solution to sell for $2500 ... if what is proposed could be done on J1772 I doubt it could cost less than $2000 less you know of some chargers I am unaware of.
I have built a 5000w charger for about $1000 ... That is J1772 connector / circuit, wires / adaptors / extension, chargers, schottky diodes etc. It requires one J1772 in order for it to work and takes 2 hours to charge the bike from near zero to 90%. Oh, and it isn't water resistant.
One Elcon 2500 cost $850 not programmed, setup to accept J1172, or hook to your bike. You would need 2 of these to achieve my DIY solution above plus the connectors. So for 5000w your looking at $1700 for chargers alone and another $200 for extras so lets round it to $2000 ... or $4000 for a 10000w solution and you need two J1772's to plug into.
5000w is a .5C charge rate. We are talking about a 1C+ charge rates without DC FAST charging (correct me if I am wrong EC)
This wouldn't be a direct to battery solution (like CHAdeMO) where the chargers are EXTERNAL to the vehicle requiring minimal parts and programming, it would have to be a solution where the chargers are INTERNAL to the vehicle. Such chargers are not cheap for the outputs needed to produce a 1C, or greater, charge rate.
Okay! I partly threw out the number to get someone to make a good argument. I buy your argument based on your experience and would pay that price, too. Thanks. :)
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To charge in an hour using J1772 connections, wouldn't you need 2 inlets?
That would be great since there are many double J1772 posts here on the east Coast.
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To charge in an hour using J1772 connections, wouldn't you need 2 inlets?
A single 240V 48A EVSE (http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/hcs-60-48a-240v-charging-25-rubber-over-molded-cord/) (60A breaker) plugged into a 90% efficient OBC could charge a ZF12.5 from 10% to 90% in approximately 50 minutes. 60 minutes for a 240V 40A EVSE, 76 minutes for 240V 32A .. 94 minutes for a 208V 30A EVSE.
Two inlets really would work best with separate chargers. People have built devices (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8661-Adapter-to-combine-two-30A-level2-into-one-60A-J1772-faster-charging/page4?p=251430&viewfull=1#post251430) to combine multiple 240V sources, into a single high-amp EVSE, but frequently the sources are not electrically compatible.
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To charge in an hour using J1772 connections, wouldn't you need 2 inlets?
That would be great since there are many double J1772 posts here on the east Coast.
For my 2014 SR with 11.4kWh battery (I'll just use the nominal value), you'd need 51.8 amps @ 220VAC to recharge in an hour....at 100% efficiency.
But Justin at least is talking about the CCS connector. How many of those are available now, does anybody know? Hopefully, the spec will be more fully-formed and enforced by whatever body owns the spec than CHAdeMO is.
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The CCS chargers are being built out in a network primarily by BMW. Their standard only goes down to 250 V, so it won't work with our bikes by design.
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I wish I could filter plugshare to only show locations with > 1 J1772 plug right next to each other.
When I went to the vetter challenge I pent an hour or more mapping these locations by hand using the plug share app then sharing the google map I created with everyone :/
Being a developer it is frustrating to see low hanging fruit features excluded :*(
I have had a extra tank on order with my stealership for months now so I could make an enclosure complete with wrack for my charging solution to keep it out of the rain and make it cleaner.
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I put 500 but only because I don't actually have any need for fast charging and I would probably pay that just so I can say "one hour" when people ask how long it takes to charge.
If my circumstances changed and I wanted to do a bit of touring I would probably pay 2500 (£2000 GBP).
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Thanks for the votes and commenting guys :)
Hope some more users vote on this hypothetical charger price too. Looking forward to seeing what everyone thinks.
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I wish I could filter plugshare to only show locations with > 1 J1772 plug right next to each other.
Being a developer it is frustrating to see low hanging fruit features excluded :*(
There's always the section for user notes but even if you leave one, it gets scrolled off as others add new ones. They should have a "sticky" or something you can place to make a comment permanent, that would outsource collection of more information about each station to the users themselves.
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If you can pull this off, happy to offer up my first born.
Seriously though, I have a power tank fitted in the SR currently - it would be removed to make room for this. Price wise, as others have noted, it would be easily be worth at least as much as the PT's if not more.
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Not one cent, I want lockable storage in the tank area.
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New2Elec, what you are describing is DC>DC charging, the rumor mill is that Zero are working on it, I would hope they are aiming for CCS instead of CHaDemo as CCS is compatible with J1772 sockets. Indeed that's the route that Energica have gone down with the Ego.
Yeah I have watched the Ego charge videos and all the Lightning videos. I would love to see some of their ideas on Zeros. The charging, the cooling, the color screen, the reverse (just a nice touch), and that 150 top speed for when you need that sort of thing. Now 40k for a bike and Italy for service and major parts I'll pass on that part. As Benswing said Zeros uses low voltage and I'm wondering which way they go. On one hand high voltage quick charging is hard to compete against but on the other a redesign for the whole system would be costly and make basically all their bikes up to that point obsolete.
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the reverse (just a nice touch)
I took my new 2014 DS ZF11.4 to Utah right after I got it. As soon as I get back home the first mod will be to add the reverse switch. That bike is tough to push back when its wheels are in a depression.
I have gotten so used to having reverse on my 2013 FX and my Zero powered e-trike that I had forgotten how useful reverse is until I didn't have it on this 400 lb bike. Zero should provide the reverse so we don't have to modify our wiring and change the software. I use a toggle switch but Zero could make it a momentary push-button on the left bar so that it couldn't accidentally be left in reverse.
Trikester
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Not one cent, I want lockable storage in the tank area.
I have to admit, I'd pay the same amount for something that didn't fit into the storage area, if it were somewhat as easy to use and maintain.
However, putting a high density component on the bike, well, it's best in the tank area with the tail as a fallback (passenger seat-loading). I don't want to let my wish for a "pony" (have it all perfect solution) to get in the way of a very good realistic solution.
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the reverse (just a nice touch)
I took my new 2014 DS ZF11.4 to Utah right after I got it. As soon as I get back home the first mod will be to add the reverse switch. That bike is tough to push back when its wheels are in a depression.
I have gotten so used to having reverse on my 2013 FX and my Zero powered e-trike that I had forgotten how useful reverse is until I didn't have it on this 400 lb bike. Zero should provide the reverse so we don't have to modify our wiring and change the software. I use a toggle switch but Zero could make it a momentary push-button on the left bar so that it couldn't accidentally be left in reverse.
Trikester
Ok how about this. Spring loaded cover over a left hand side reverse button that requires the following.
1. Key on, bike booted up
2. Kickstand up
3. Throttle kill switch on (no throttle access)
4. Lift the cover and press the button (no forward/reverse double signal possible)
5. Kill switch off, reverse button dead, ride away.
Like any good CEO I come up with a broad general idea and leave it up to the EE's to make it happen.
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the reverse (just a nice touch)
I took my new 2014 DS ZF11.4 to Utah right after I got it. As soon as I get back home the first mod will be to add the reverse switch. That bike is tough to push back when its wheels are in a depression.
I have gotten so used to having reverse on my 2013 FX and my Zero powered e-trike that I had forgotten how useful reverse is until I didn't have it on this 400 lb bike. Zero should provide the reverse so we don't have to modify our wiring and change the software. I use a toggle switch but Zero could make it a momentary push-button on the left bar so that it couldn't accidentally be left in reverse.
+1. I'll communicate with you about that. The Zero DS with a good charger makes a good adventure bike, especially considering that many speeds are below 55 mph, and those thorny off-road situations would be less stressful with a reverse gear. I'm already comparing the DS to my V-Strom for the roads that both can reach and the DS is just really easy to work with and makes for a better day of riding.
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Hypothetically, if I owned a Zero, I think I'd be willing to pay up to £1,000 for that solution. From what I've read, it does sound like a battery pack redesign is in order though. I would go high voltage and make it as compatible as possible with car fast charging systems to achieve a 90% charge in 20 minutes. Put a few stickers in the right places warning of the high voltage and all should be fine. For those unqualified tinkerers, a Darwin award awaits!
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Hypothetically, if I owned a Zero, I think I'd be willing to pay up to £1,000 for that solution. From what I've read, it does sound like a battery pack redesign is in order though. I would go high voltage and make it as compatible as possible with car fast charging systems to achieve a 90% charge in 20 minutes. Put a few stickers in the right places warning of the high voltage and all should be fine. For those unqualified tinkerers, a Darwin award awaits!
In addition to Darwin, in the U.S., the lawyers await. :o
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Hahaa Richard, I hadn't thought of that... Made me chuckle.
I'd like to think a UK judge would liken a claim to smoking by a petrol tank and throw it out. Who knows these days though?!? Another option would be to encase the high voltage electrics so they can't be tampered with easily. They'll have to do something with those high pressure hydrogen tanks when they come in too.
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I answered $4000 but the real figure is: the amount of money my wife would not notice missing from our bank account.
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In that case you just have to label it as clothing.
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I answered $4000 but the real figure is: the amount of money my wife would not notice missing from our bank account.
In that case you just have to label it as clothing.
That will just cover the shoes ;)
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What's this awesome text from Terry saying the new DigiNow thing he saw today is awesome?! Could it be 10kW charging his Zero in a very light and tiny charger that fits perfectly under the tank or in a tail case for riders with powertanks or FXs??
Something like a Super Charger Charge Tank?
(http://i.imgur.com/ienwlEl.jpg)
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Oh. You tease!
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If you need another tester, you know where to find me. [emoji6]
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No, no, no....Brandon, you can't drop a bomb like that on a bunch of electron junkies like us and not even offer a small snort as a sample.
What is that, who's working on it, and most importantly, WHEN CAN WE BUY IT????
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Has anyone looked into the emotorwerks dc charger? Looks like it could work.
http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/category/listing/17-dc-charging-systems (http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/category/listing/17-dc-charging-systems)
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What kind of power source you using to charge at 10kW? 2 J1772's?
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Has anyone looked into the emotorwerks dc charger? Looks like it could work.
http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/category/listing/17-dc-charging-systems (http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/category/listing/17-dc-charging-systems)
Dunno but I just sent them an email. I agree with you, that looks like a very nice solution. We'll see if they respond.
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"As luck would have it..." he tells me.
http://www.examiner.com/article/diginow-s-fast-charger-for-zero-ds-s-sr-electric-motorcycle-enables-long-rides (http://www.examiner.com/article/diginow-s-fast-charger-for-zero-ds-s-sr-electric-motorcycle-enables-long-rides)
Anybody recognize that blue bodywork or the guy on the bike?
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"As luck would have it..." he tells me.
http://www.examiner.com/article/diginow-s-fast-charger-for-zero-ds-s-sr-electric-motorcycle-enables-long-rides (http://www.examiner.com/article/diginow-s-fast-charger-for-zero-ds-s-sr-electric-motorcycle-enables-long-rides)
Anybody recognize that blue bodywork or the guy on the bike?
That looks like Terry and his dog Charger to me. I met them both last Sunday morning at Alice's Restaurant. Check out the picture and video sub-forum.
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Richard, he may have been testing the fast charger while you spoke with him.
Robrecht, he worked with Emotowerks to get it to this phase.
http://www.motorcycle.com/features/diginow-zero-super-charger-2.html
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2500$
Impressive charge amount per price!!!!
Very cool this is a game changer!!!
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;D
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Brandon, I think Dorian copied you on an email chain of ours....I want one, tell me where to send my money.
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Flying back home now. Should be back to work around 11pm PST.
Thanks everyone! We have had an awesome response today. I'm looking forward to hearing about how all the riders ordering now plan to use their chargers. It would be cool to have a thread on that. Then we could all share ideas and trips. You might even meet an adventure buddy.
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Very funny, I was looking at that charger for the past couple of weeks (since delivery of my SR). Nice to know that it is actually a good solution to the fast charging issue !
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Very cool : D This is what exactly Zero needs to promote on their bikes for fast charging .. love that it can drop into the Power Tank location. Better option than either the Power Tank or the Elcons.
This is the most bastardized Zero I've ever seen .. SR badging, '15 mirrors, '13 plastics, DS forks/wheels, SR badging .. looks like a size 4 controller
http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg (http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg)
Does the charger work with low-amp EVSEs, like 15 amp or 20 amp? What about 120V AC input? How does the charger handle switching between the J1772 inlet and a NEMA plug?
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2500$
Impressive charge amount per price!!!!
Very cool this is a game changer!!!
Cortezdtv are you talking about the Emotowerks chargers EC didn't work with them in creating or the one he did.
The one EC worked on, at least from all the articles I have seen say this:
Introductory pricing for the Super Charger is set at $2944, and a very limited number of units will be available in the first production batch.
Correct me if I am wrong of course ;)
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A few more tidbits from an email Brandon sent me late last night:
1) The input connector will probably mount where the frame-mounted Zero J1772 connector mounts, with modular connectors for J1772, 14-50 and hopefully CCS and CHAdeMO to follow soon. It sounds like details are being hammered out even as we speak.
2) The stock charger can remain in place, and probably be used concurrently if there are outlets available, to provide another ~12 amps. Brandon's thinking that many people might want to get rid of the 10 pounds of weight the stock charger represents, but mine will stay in place, both for backup purposes and as my daily overnight charging option. He says the "supercharger" weighs about 20 pounds, so it'll be considerably less added weight compared to the power tank. It'll be interesting to see how they make it weathertight and yet allow some airflow to keep it cool.
3) J1772, CCS and CHAdeMO all have communications protocols, so on those interfaces, the charger will automatically dial its current consumption back to avoid overloading the charging station. 14-50 probably won't need to throttle back.
I don't know about anybody else, but I'm incredibly excited. This is a complete game-changer for me -- I can visit my folks 90 freeway miles from me, I can head out to Palm Springs from where I live near San Diego, I can go on longer club rides. Now if Vetter will just heal up and get some fairings made, we'll be set!
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Very exciting news this indeed. If the 2016 models don't offer proper (DC) charging they have a big gap to jump in.
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I have charged at Blink J1772 systems before where I could only charge at 3800 watts. Have seen Eaton systems that would not charge at 6300 watts and had to unplug the internal charger and charge at 5000 watts. Will this system automatically adjust to whatever power level the J1772 system you are charging at can put out? GE Wattstations require communications with the BMS system and as a result will not charge a Zero using the Elcons. Will this system work with GE Wattstations?
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Very exciting indeed. This will make for much funner camping trips, and I'll finally be able to visit friends on Vancouver Island...
To add to Doug's list, here are a few more details from previous emails from Brandon:
- The input voltage range is 100 - 300 v AC||DC. The charger should support higher and lower, but the best performance will be from this range.
- It can accept any power in so long as it says what the max amperage is in the protocol it won't trip the breaker.
- For the 2013 models, the charger will have to be connected to the controller. Brandon will be helping to install one shortly and "will make sure we have clear documentation on the uber simple install"
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Auto Blog picked up the story, which was picked up by the NewsBot on the BMW motorcycle forum that I frequent.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/13/diginow-super-charger-electric-motorcycles/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/13/diginow-super-charger-electric-motorcycles/)
Also Ted Dillard published an article regarding Brandon's creation on his website. I would provide a link to his story, but I am getting a "data base error" message when I try to visit his site.
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- The input voltage range is 100 - 300 v AC||DC. The charger should support higher and lower, but the best performance will be from this range.
- It can accept any power in so long as it says what the max amperage is in the protocol it won't trip the breaker.
Wow! That sounds awesome....something you don't need to be an engineer to use....plug it in and the bike just charges at the max rate available. This is exactly what the market needs. A product like this is far more valuable than adding another 15 miles of highway range to the battery pack.
I wish you didn't have to take up valuable storage space but the overall design seems to be a very flexible solution for a wide range of applications.
It would be great if the 2016 Zeros dumped the 1.3kW charger and incorporated a similar super charging solution as this without giving up the storage space or needing to fill a top box.
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Big thank you to everyone who has ordered already. It is great to see the international response we have gotten. It certainly makes me feel glad I decided that I couldn't be the only one that wanted to charge my Zero at a reasonable speed.
After late nights building prototype after prototype in the Hollywood Electrics Shop drinking beer with Harlan and chatting e power, I realised 3-4 kw just wasn't enough and I really didn't want to carry a lot of chargers the way Terry did on his 1000 lb bike. It's encouraging to see so many people everywhere so excited about this.
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Hats off to you EC, Harlan and everyone else that's been involved with this project.
I think it's safe to assume that 2016 models won't be coming with any form of integral fast charging. As this solution will fill the gap for many folks it will hopefully spur Zero on to provide fast charging as standard. In the year or two it will take them to achieve that, I hope EC et al sell a ton of them and it proves to be a worthwhile effort. [emoji4]
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Big thank you to everyone who has ordered already.
How exactly is that done?? I see three different chargers on emotorwerks website that don't fit the description or price listed in the articles I've read. Also, the article at motorcycle.com says emotorwerks will offer a discount on a Juicebox with the purchase of the charger...how do we get that?
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Has anybody ordered one for a 2012 S/DS?
Besides the charger, what else would need to be purchased for a 2012?
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How exactly is that done?? I see three different chargers on emotorwerks website that don't fit the description or price listed in the articles I've read. Also, the article at motorcycle.com says emotorwerks will offer a discount on a Juicebox with the purchase of the charger...how do we get that?
Send Mike at DigiNow.it an email. He'll hook you up.
Let him know your address and model year bike, like 2014 DS, or FX.
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Has anybody ordered one for a 2012 S/DS?
Besides the charger, what else would need to be purchased for a 2012?
Yup, while its not our primary market because it doesn't have a tank, just like the FX or XU, you can carry it in a top case.
Just let Mike at DigiNow.it know it is for a 2012 model.
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Now if Vetter will just heal up and get some fairings made, we'll be set!
Doug are you doing the full LVF (last vetter fairing) or just the front? My two front pieces are fiberglassed together waiting to be trimmed down to fit the concept design vetter posted a while back with stock seating. It is now at the top of my list of projects to complete before winter hits (since last winter with 10F mornings was "Fun" even with heated gear ... sometimes I wondered "is my gear on" so then I would flip the switch and realize "yeah it is on" ) lol
I will likely start working on this again not this weekend but the weekend after since I have to get Turbo past inspection and confirm the firmware update "fixed" my lack of throttle response errors :/
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Specwise this charger outperforms the official power tank a lot. Earlier in the thread other (DC) inlets were mentioned, does somebody know if there's more information about that?
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The new Zero Level 2, J1772 "Charge Tank" will be a $1,988 dealer-installed option on the 2016 Zero S, DS and SR models. My understanding is that it can not be retrofitted to the 2015 and earlier Zero bikes. The Charge Tank will function at a 3.3 KWh rate.
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The new Zero Level 2, J1772 "Charge Tank" will be a $1,988 dealer-installed option on the 2016 Zero S, DS and SR models. My understanding is that it can not be retrofitted to the 2015 and earlier Zero bikes. The Charge Tank will function at a 3.3 KWh rate.
Zero lists a 2.5 kW charge rate for the Charge Tank. When combined with the 1.3 kW onboard charger, the bike charges at 3.8 kW (enough to bring the 11.4 kWh ZF13 to 95% in 3 hours).
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The new Zero Level 2, J1772 "Charge Tank" will be a $1,988 dealer-installed option on the 2016 Zero S, DS and SR models. My understanding is that it can not be retrofitted to the 2015 and earlier Zero bikes. The Charge Tank will function at a 3.3 KWh rate.
Zero lists a 2.5 kW charge rate for the Charge Tank. When combined with the 1.3 kW onboard charger, the bike charges at 3.8 kW (enough to bring the 11.4 kWh ZF13 to 95% in 3 hours).
I stand corrected. I read 3.8 as 3.3. I guess I need better reading glasses. ::)
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Doug are you doing the full LVF (last vetter fairing) or just the front?
Burton, I don't have anything in work. That's why (in addition to just plain liking the guy) I'm rooting for Craig to get back on his feet and back to what he loves, making vehicles more efficient. When I spoke to him 4th of July weekend, he said he wasn't going to be able to get to his SR project until the end of the summer at the earliest, and then he had his accident. I've toyed with the idea of rolling my own, I enjoy doing fiberglass work and I'm good at it, but there's a lot of other things like light mounting, wiring, mounting issues, contouring acrylic windscreens, stuff like that that I'd be making up from scratch, where Craig knows it like the back of his hand.
I think between Brandon's supercharger and Craig's efficiency increases, touring on the S/SR could become a matter of 1-1/2 hour riding, 45 minutes charging, which seems like a pretty decent touring speed to me -- any more time on the bike than that and my butt just gets sore faster anyhow. In addition, with charging options increased and range extended, many more trips become possible. I'm REALLY looking forward to being able to do that sort of ride on the SR.
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Got my invoice last night. Check out the last line:
... you will need to adjust amperage manually via the DigiNow Super Charger App
An app! wicked!!
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Same exact invoice I got, Patrick, and I noticed the same thing. It's gonna be wicked.
My invoice appears to say it's for charger number 5, what's yours? It'd be interesting to find out how many they've sold already.
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Yeah, I can't wait! I got number 7 8)
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I'm 004. Wonder who got in line before me?!? :-)
Looking forward to seeing what this can do!
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Number 6, and I'm super excited to get it!
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I just got my invoice today...number 9! Who's gonna organize the summer of 2016 Zero Super Charger Tour of the USA...haha
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IN!!
Let the planning begin...
I made a google doc to gauge initial interest in road tripping on our Zeros. If you think of a category of information that would be useful, please add it. Even if you can't do much of a road trip, it will be fun to know where everyone is so we can find each other for weekend rides.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HqdPRT8N9Yl7puMH_-UpDZ2l135WN5-2UNl7oHasj9k/edit#gid=0
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I'm 004. Wonder who got in line before me?!? :-)
Okay, I'll admit it: by volunteering my bike as guinea pig for 2013 models, I managed to get a little ahead in line. :-) Being in the Bay Area has certainly yielded some unexpected perks as a Zero owner (the flea market cache of parts being the other one).
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This is the most bastardized Zero I've ever seen .. SR badging, '15 mirrors, '13 plastics, DS forks/wheels, SR badging .. looks like a size 4 controller
http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg (http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg)
That happens to be my bastardized 2013 DS. :) The mirrors are from a flea market sale that I happened to get in on. We threw on the SR tank plastics because I didn't have power tank plastics on hand. The bike itself will get more bastardized as I customize it further with the 15 flea market finds; hopefully I can make it look better with some paint or vinyl.
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Guys,
Please make videos of the install and let us know how it works and how far you can go in a weekend!
I am on a budget right now but plan to buy in April as a birthday present to myself.
Have fun.
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This is the most bastardized Zero I've ever seen .. SR badging, '15 mirrors, '13 plastics, DS forks/wheels, SR badging .. looks like a size 4 controller
http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg (http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg)
That happens to be my bastardized 2013 DS. :) The mirrors are from a flea market sale that I happened to get in on. We threw on the SR tank plastics because I didn't have power tank plastics on hand. The bike itself will get more bastardized as I customize it further with the 15 flea market finds; hopefully I can make it look better with some paint or vinyl.
May I suggest plastidip? Wonderful stuff.
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This is the most bastardized Zero I've ever seen .. SR badging, '15 mirrors, '13 plastics, DS forks/wheels, SR badging .. looks like a size 4 controller
http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg (http://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/On-off1.jpg)
That happens to be my bastardized 2013 DS. :) The mirrors are from a flea market sale that I happened to get in on. We threw on the SR tank plastics because I didn't have power tank plastics on hand. The bike itself will get more bastardized as I customize it further with the 15 flea market finds; hopefully I can make it look better with some paint or vinyl.
May I suggest plastidip? Wonderful stuff.
You may! I'll see what option is easiest pretty soon.
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Just let Mike at DigiNow.it know it is for a 2012 model.
Would there be any reason the super charger might not work on the 2016 bikes?
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mrwilsn,
The worst case is you can only charge through the controller ... which means you can still do it ;)
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Hypothetically, could the batteries handle having two DigiNow Super Chargers hooked up?
Would the bike wiring to the batteries be able to handle the current? Just use a Quick Charger Y Adaptor (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=196)?
You would need two J1772 outlets or two NEMA 14-50 outlets to get enough current from the grid.
Sounds like a lot of public J1772 only supply 6kW so two Super Chargers would give 12kW. Up to 20kW from two NEMA 14-50. 20-30 minute charging?
The limits of my wallet aside...what's the limit the batteries and bike wiring can handle? 1 Super Charger? 2? 3? Zero lists the max number of Delta-Q chargers as 4. I assume that has to do with limiting the number of splitters and the number of outlets all capable of supplying 15A @ 110V that you could reasonably have available to you?
According to AutoBlog (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/13/diginow-super-charger-electric-motorcycles/), with a 70A 240V connection (I assume this is CHAdeMO) the Super Charger can provide 15kW so it seems like it should at least be reasonable to hook up two Super Chargers both using J1772.
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Hypothetically, could the batteries handle having two DigiNow Super Chargers hooked up?
No. The cells are rated to 1C charging, which the DigiNow charger gets pretty close to. But it doesn't matter; the big Anderson connector is rated for 100 amps, so that's all the current you're going to be able to use to charge the batteries with anyhow.
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I saw somewhere online that the bikes would protect themselves if the charging rate exceeded 1C, can someone verify this? It sounds reasonable (and I don't plan on pushing past that), but does someone know the source of this information.
AaronZeroMoto, can you speak to this?
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I saw somewhere online that the bikes would protect themselves if the charging rate exceeded 1C, can someone verify this? It sounds reasonable (and I don't plan on pushing past that), but does someone know the source of this information.
AaronZeroMoto, can you speak to this?
I know inside the ODBII terminal session settings there is a max charge rate ... who knows what happens if you go over it but I would imagine it would stop the process of charging. The ov_chg_dis might be a way to disable this setting as I don't see an apparent way to increase it from 1.0C less you change the amps per brick ...
Note, I haven't tested any of this and I have no clue what would really be affected if you changed these settings ... so don't do it ;)
From BMS data:
- Max Discharge Temp : 60 C
- Min Power Reduction Temp : 55 C
- Min Discharge Temp : -30 C
- Max Charge Temp : 50 C
- Min Charge Temp : 0 C
- Max Charge C-Rate : 1.0
- Min Discharge C-Rate : 10.0
From "set" data:
ov_chg_dis - Override charger disable : No
sevmaxchgcur - Sevcon Max Batt Chg Amps : -20 A per brick
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Hypothetically, could the batteries handle having two DigiNow Super Chargers hooked up?
No. The cells are rated to 1C charging, which the DigiNow charger gets pretty close to. But it doesn't matter; the big Anderson connector is rated for 100 amps, so that's all the current you're going to be able to use to charge the batteries with anyhow.
If you installed two and detuned their output so they both have the same output and both equal less than 100A charging power you should be fine. This if you plan on using two J1772 or 14-50 connections. If you charge through the controller then you could charge more than 100A if you change some settings in the DVT / ODBII; if I recall correctly.
This would really only be beneficial if you have a lot of J1772 stations right next to each other and you would have to find a location for the second charger but technically it could be safely done.
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I saw somewhere online that the bikes would protect themselves if the charging rate exceeded 1C, can someone verify this? It sounds reasonable (and I don't plan on pushing past that), but does someone know the source of this information.
I have heard Brandon discuss this, with the claim that the battery has its own set of contactors which will open in this event, essentially like a circuit breaker.
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This is a very interesting point. I wonder how Tesla get to charge at close to 2C? I know that they adjust the rate according to the state of charge. Perhaps their cells are designed to take a fast charge. I wish my iPhone would!
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I have heard Brandon discuss this, with the claim that the battery has its own set of contactors which will open in this event, essentially like a circuit breaker.
Makes complete sense to do it that way to :) Good to know, thanks Brian
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This is a very interesting point. I wonder how Tesla get to charge at close to 2C? I know that they adjust the rate according to the state of charge. Perhaps their cells are designed to take a fast charge. I wish my iPhone would!
Tesla cools the cells while they charge. Basically keeps them at an optimal temperature. They also do more of a constant power charge until like 80% from the current/voltage charts I've seen on the Tesla supercharger
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Thanks Nuts, I didn't know about the cooling part.
So perhaps if Zero develop a liquid cooled motor, they could also pipe coolant to the battery pack, perhaps with the help of heat pipes to the individual cells. Not much use when the motor is running as there would be too much heat in the system. Perhaps with the bike stopped and a fan running air through the radiator, the cells could be kept in the 20 degrees Celsius range unless it was a really hot day.
It's probably over engineering for a bike, not to mention the extra cost. Just thinking aloud as it were...
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Hypothetically, could the batteries handle having two DigiNow Super Chargers hooked up?
No. The cells are rated to 1C charging, which the DigiNow charger gets pretty close to. But it doesn't matter; the big Anderson connector is rated for 100 amps, so that's all the current you're going to be able to use to charge the batteries with anyhow.
If you installed two and detuned their output so they both have the same output and both equal less than 100A charging power you should be fine. This if you plan on using two J1772 or 14-50 connections. If you charge through the controller then you could charge more than 100A if you change some settings in the DVT / ODBII; if I recall correctly.
This would really only be beneficial if you have a lot of J1772 stations right next to each other and you would have to find a location for the second charger but technically it could be safely done.
To be clear...it was just a hypothetical, I'm definitely not planning on doing this. Not worth the money for the limited circumstances under which you could take advantage of the second charger. But if I was gonna do it one charger could go in the tank and the other in a top box. Or if you have a big enough top box (bigger than the one Zero sells) you could put both in the top box.
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Hypothetically, could the batteries handle having two DigiNow Super Chargers hooked up?
No. The cells are rated to 1C charging, which the DigiNow charger gets pretty close to. But it doesn't matter; the big Anderson connector is rated for 100 amps, so that's all the current you're going to be able to use to charge the batteries with anyhow.
This is exactly the answer I was looking for...batteries rated to 1C and anderson connector rated for 100 amps. Thanks Doug!
So, since nominal capacity on the ZF 11.4 is 10 kWh....the Super Charger is actually capable of providing more power than the pack can handle. For a Power Tank equipped 2016 SR with 14 kWh nominal capacity, the Super Charger will be capable of providing more power than the pack can handle once they release the CHAdeMO adaptor and the Super Charger can provide 15kW. But won't you need to exceed the 100 amp limit on the anderson connector and hit 130A @ 116V to get 15kW output from the Super Charger?
Am I getting that right?
How much power the particular J1772 or NEMA 14-50 connector you plug into can provide is obviously another story....I have seen some saying that certain J1772 are only providing 3.3kW :'(
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How much power the particular J1772 or NEMA 14-50 connector you plug into can provide is obviously another story....I have seen some saying that certain J1772 are only providing 3.3kW :'(
J1772 plugs supply 30A at either 208, 220, or 240V. They will supply about 6.2-7.2kW (except Blink, which gives an overcurrent error over 6kW).
The possible reason you have seen people say they can only get 3.3kW out of a J1772 plug is because the onboard charger on some cars is 3.3kW. For example, the onboard charger on any Chevy Volt, Mitsubishi i-MiEV or 2011-2012 Nissan LEAFs are 3.3kW. Even though the J1772 charging station can provide 6.6kW, the onboard charger can only convert 3.3kW of that electricity to DC current to charge the car's battery.
With a NEMA 4-50 connection, you should be able to get about 10kW, plus there are always 110V plugs next to the 50A outlet. So you should be able to get 11kW at an RV Park.
You have no idea how excited I am to try this out in late November!
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Here's a thread on how Tesla charge at up to 2C.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-Teslas-Superchargers-charge-up-so-fast
Bearing in mind that Tesla are in the automotive industry and have much more R&D clout, I'd say that what we have with the Zero battery pack and this new charger is the best we can expect for some time.
Ambitions of being able to get another 100 miles of range in 20-30 minutes are clearly unrealistic. To manage this in approximately an hour is a massive achievement.
I still find all the different charging options in different countries confusing. That seems to be the next challenge!
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Bearing in mind that Tesla are in the automotive industry and have much more R&D clout, I'd say that what we have with the Zero battery pack and this new charger is the best we can expect for some time.
Ambitions of being able to get another 100 miles of range in 20-30 minutes are clearly unrealistic. To manage this in approximately an hour is a massive achievement.
100 miles with a streamliner fairing is 10 kWh of energy. Adding this energy in 20-30 minutes requires 20-30 kW of charge acceptance. That's possible with a large battery pack; the 14 kWh ZF13+PT would only be 1.5C at 20 kW, and a 20 kWh bike could do 30 kW at 1.5C. At low SOC I bet the Zero packs could take a 1.5C charge without heating up too much.
Realistically, you're correct; a faired tourer is probably a couple of years out still. But that seems to be more limited by business reasons (sales predictions for a $$$ bike that "looks funny") and risk rather than technical limitations.
A PT Zero S with a free-mounted diginow super charger and a 40A EVSE (10 kW AC) could add about 30 miles of highway range in 30 minutes ($20k). Add a streamlined fairing and this increases to 50 miles in 30 minutes (say $23k with installation).
Energica is a 12 kWh bike and it seems to charge at about 20 kW. Despite the sport fairing, however, its highway range seems very poor; 60 miles at highway speeds. It can add 50 miles in 20 minutes. Price in the mid $30k range.
Lightning claims to sell a 20 kWh bike that can DCQC with 160 miles of highway range. With a 30 minute 80% charge this can restore 100 miles in approximately 25 minutes (~30 kW). No price listed for the higher capacity packs, but $50k for the 20 kWh pack would not surprise me.
Both of these bikes have sport bike fairings and relatively conventional styling. I don't expect to see large sales success for either due to price and fledgling distribution networks.. really curious to see how Victory does selling a $20k bike that seems to fall short in many ways of the $16k SR. Name recognition, sales and service networks count for a lot.
It may take a Yamaha, Kawasaki, or Honda to actually deliver on these touring bikes. And while CHAdeMO is hugely popular in Japan, the US and Europe are a long ways away from a ride-anywhere DCQC network and no clear standards victor.
The "good news", I guess, is that the longer we wait the easier it gets to make the business case for a ~$20k tourer; the QC networks improve and component costs continue to fall. Tesla has a decent QC network already; I think the widespread availability of 150-200 mile low-priced electric cars in 2017-2018 will really get some momentum behind growing the standard networks.
Zero has seen modest success with bikes in the $14-18k space, with their limited sales and support networks and no real touring capability. The large manufacturers are clearly waiting for the right time to drop a tourer. I wonder if Zero will beat them to it.
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J1772 plugs supply 30A at either 208, 220, or 240V. They will supply about 6.2-7.2kW (except Blink, which gives an overcurrent error over 6kW).
The J1772 standard will support up to 80A at 240V which is (19.2kW), however the specific connector, cable, relays, etc for a specific EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) are not required to support that. It USA, the EVSE with a J1772 plug that comes with most electric cars are typically 120V and allow up to 12A. A typical Level 2 EVSE supplies between 208V and 240V depending on how power gets supplied to the EVSE, and while 30A and 40A are common, they theoretically might only support 6A. There are many home units that only supply 15 amps as well as GM Voltec EVSEs frequently found at Chevrolet dealers.
The EVSE's use a pilot signal to tell the charger what the max amperage it can support and then expect the charger to honor that limit to avoid tripping the breaker, melting parts, etc. Wikipedia has a reasonable summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772) of the standard.
Plugshare http://www.plugshare.com/ (http://www.plugshare.com/) is pretty good about identify the lower power units, and they typically have lighter and more flexible cables.
Chocula
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Looks like this might have been what they were talking about when they said CHAdeMO adaptor coming soon to the Super Charger. Buy one of these and it doesn't matter if the charging station supports the lower voltage of the Zero pack.
NEW: CHAdeMO (TM) - compatible charge controller for EMotorWerks DC Chargers (http://www.emotorwerks.com/dc-charging-systems/97-new-chademo-tm-compatible-charge-controller-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers/category_pathway-17) $700
NEW: CHAdeMO (TM) - compatible Cable & Plug for EMotorWerks DC Chargers (http://www.emotorwerks.com/dc-charging-systems/111-new-chademo-tm-compatible-cable-plug-for-emotorwerks-dc-chargers/category_pathway-17) $900
Not sure if there will be room under the tank for the extra 11 x 7 x 3 box for the CHAdeMO controller. Maybe DigiNow already worked it into the Super Charger and its just the cable that is needed? That would be sweet!
Looks like DigiNow may have been able to get a batch of these kits and packaged it into a form factor that fits under the Zero tank. Smart!
Complete SmartCharge-12000 PFC EV Charger component kit, no enclosure (http://www.emotorwerks.com/dc-charging-systems/206-complete-smartcharge-12000-pfc-ev-charger-component-kit-no-enclosure/category_pathway-17/related_product-130) $1300
Hardware & wiring kit for SmartCharge-12000 (http://www.emotorwerks.com/dc-charging-systems/130-hardware-wiring-kit-for-smartcharge-12000/category_pathway-17) $70
Pending the cost of the DigiNow "CHAdeMO adaptor" and taking into consideration the engineering effort they put in, it looks like DigiNow are packing some good value into their Super Charger. However, if you are comfortable with a soldering iron and don't care about things like an enclosure or water resistance there is an opportunity to get yourself one of these kits and really get a bargain. I don't remember seeing these kits on the emotorwerks site when the DigiNow Super Charger was first announced but maybe I just missed it.
I can't wait to play with my new Super Charger late next month! Even without CHAdeMO yet its going to be SOOO much better over the stock charger!
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Has anybody seen or heard of any movement on the super-charger? I honestly wasn't expecting them to make the ship date they advertised, but it's well past now, and not a single peep, even in response to emails I've sent. An update would be extremely welcome. More than anything, I'd like to hear what the connector is going to look like so I can rig up a 14-50 cable and be ready to play when it gets here.
Any word yet on any front?
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I was told after inquiring that at least one has shipped. And said it was okay to share that, but I'm not sure why they didn't speak up themselves.
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...I'm not sure why they didn't speak up themselves.
Hopefully they're busy getting the rest of the pilot lot ready for shipment. But I do wish they'd give me the connector information I want to get a cable assembled; OTOH they haven't contacted me about a shipping address yet either, so maybe the next few are still a ways away.
I also hope they aren't including Terry's prototype as the first "shipped" unit.
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I think Terry got the first production model shipped on Nov 24. It would be nice to have an update on these. I'm anxiously awaiting mine so I can ride and test it out before the ground freezes.
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I honestly wasn't expecting them to make the ship date they advertised, but it's well past now, and not a single peep, even in response to emails I've sent.
I tried to be patient but last night I finally broke down and sent an email asking if they could tell me an expected ship date. No response yet.
If things are taking a bit longer than expected that's understandable but it would be nice to at least be kept in the loop about what's going on....I don't think that's asking too much after dropping $3k.
Since I am #9 I am expecting that I will be one of the last if not the last to get one out of the first batch. [emoji20]
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Just got a response...
"There was a delay at the manufacture due to the Thanksgiving break. The Chargers will be shipping soon. "
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Hey guys,
I have been testing the first production unit and am scheduled to go to Electric Motor Werks tomorrow for a teardown and inspection. I would guess that other units were waiting to ship until this analysis was complete but I am not sure if they have or not.
I would guess that if everything is 100% that the other units will go out soon. I'll ask if Electric Motor Werks or DigiNow can post an update here when I talk to them tomorrow.
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Thanks, Terry!
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"There was a delay at the manufacture due to the Thanksgiving break. The Chargers will be shipping soon. "
I got the same message, which was very welcome. Since I asked, Michael also told me that the input will be a J1772. I'm not quite sure what to make of that, since most J1772 sockets can't handle 50A. I had thought there would be some sort of generic input connector (probably an Anderson), with adapters for the various connections.
I guess at this point I'll just wait to see what arrives. It won't take long to assemble a 14-50 cable once I'm sure what I need.
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I guess at this point I'll just wait to see what arrives. It won't take long to assemble a 14-50 cable once I'm sure what I need.
I have a feeling if you use a 14-50 you are going to have to spoof the J1772 signal given from a standard external charger for it to work :/
That said I have seen Brandon running around with a 14-50 to J1772 but idk what was done with signaling. ... might just be ignored if not present. (i hope so ;) )
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I have a feeling if you use a 14-50 you are going to have to spoof the J1772 signal given from a standard external charger for it to work :/
When we ordered our chargers, they asked what connectors we wanted, and I asked for J1772 and 14-50....they indicated that wouldn't be a problem, and the invoice shows two charges, $22 for a "Super Charger modular power connector - J1772", and $80 for a "Super Charger modular power connector - NEMA 14-50 and mount". So I assume all the interfaces are worked out. The NEMA entry also says "Allows charger to connect to any NEMA 14-50 outlet. This is not a smart connector, so you will need to adjust amperage manually via the DigiNow Super Charger App.", which is actually pretty exciting -- obviously there's going to be an app to give the user control. Good stuff!
I'm just thinking about cabling. The J1772 chargers have a cable, with a J1772 jack on the end that fits into the bike's socket. But a NEMA 14-50 outlet is just that, an outlet. I just want to figure out what's the most expeditious type of cable to hook up with. I'll probably use the 14-50 hookup much more than the J1772.
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Justin: Have you ordered one yet? They'll need to fit a Mennekes compatible input for the European market unless I'm mistaken.
I didn't know that J1772 sockets couldn't handle 50A. That's only 5,500 Watts at 110V. So you'd need at least two together to get anywhere near the claimed 10kW charge rate. I think Mennekes is higher voltage and capable of much higher power output too.
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Hey guys!
Sorry for the absence on the forums, update time :
So manufacturing of the first chargers went pretty well. I never realised just how hard it is to get manufacturing all set up, even with experienced help, and how many moving pieces there are! We had a slight delay over the holiday and an issue with one the j-plug supplier just before that which EMW has been able to take care of, they are such an awesome team up there! And as soon as the first production model was ready we got it to Terry, the first paid customer on our list. Thanks so much for believing in this Terry!
Since Terry received his charger he has given some awesome feedback on usage and data and we will be reviewing his charger state and data on top of all of this to make sure it is as perfect as the final prototype was. Just want to make sure the little tweaks that were made for the production model from the prototype are all performing fantastic as expected.
And as you guys know, I am pretty sure Terry is the God of charging, so we will be implementing some changes to our charging algorithm as well as android and iphone apps. I'm glad Terry was number one because I think his feedback will make the whole charger easier for people to use, as well as make it possible for us to do over the air firmware updates when they come out. But to do so, there is one more wire we need to run out of the chargers.
While we could ship out chargers upto invoice #9 right now, I think you guys will be pretty stoked with these updates, so we want to make them before we ship otherwise the first 9 wouldn't have as awesome of a charger as the rest of the people who got into the first production run. The rest of the chargers are almost complete, but we are building them with the new features as well.
So what we want to do is incorporate the feedback we have so far and then deliver the second and third chargers all of which are pretty close to here. These guys and myself will test the new updates to make sure everything is stable and reliable, which it should be because it's just one minor hardware modification and and writing a bit of new code.
I estimate with the next holiday coming soon that this would mean we should have enough testing data on the updates to start releasing the remaining chargers between January 11th and 22nd. Just incase there are any additional updates to the apps that need to be made. We will have to test the Over The Air firmware updates as well since that is a totally new feature.
Apologies for the delay in feedback, I really did not understand how complicated all the different business interactions between manufacturers and developers are nor the difference between building the prototypes and production versions. It seems anyone can build a few prototypes, but building a production product, now that is complicated! Also, if anyone does not want to wait until then, we will totally refund your investment in the awesome Super Charger. We really appreciate everyone being so excited to get their chargers, and all the help we are getting too.
Also, @Burton you know me well :) we decided to build a NEMA 14-50 to JPlug adapter which ignores the signal. You control the charging wattage through an app. When you are plugged into a 14-50 it's upto you how much power to draw. Everyone who ordered the $80 connector will be getting the new NEMA to J connector at the price they paid which is basically a 50% discount for the cost of the new connectors. It just makes things very very easy for everyone to use. That said people can still build their own special connectors and hook them up via an anderson just as promised. But this is so easy and safe!
@Mostly bonkers the Jplugs and NEMA plugs should be providing power between 200 and 240 volts so that should help you with the amperage calculations. It mean a lot fewer amps are needed on the charger in from plug side, and a lot more can be pushed from the charger out to battery side ;)
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THANK YOU Brandon! You're more than absolved; your hard work (and everybody else's) is extremely appreciated. I'm an EE and it really is amazing just how hard it is to get a product shipped, even for people that do it all the time.
I have unit number five, and by all means, keep it until the latest change is implemented. Over-the-air updates are a dream for those of us who deal with Zero's three-years-obsolete app. I also have some experience with that sort of thing, and if the first version of firmware has bugs that's one thing, but if the updater has bugs then you can't update to fix the bugs. The updater has to work correctly out the door.
Just be sure to keep us updated! We're a bunch of five-year-olds waiting for Christmas to arrive. Lots of milk and cookies on the hearth waiting for you.
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Thanks EC. Is there a website for more info yet? Apologies if I've missed it.
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@EC, Thank you sir ;)
This means I can splice into your adapter and make other adapters for various plugs (like 120v or drier plugs) :D (And you know me, I modify everything I own lol)
At work I "need" to charge with a standard nema 5-20 since I don't want people messing with my bike if it is parked in a J1772 slot.
Knowing there is an app is a big plus!
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Thanks Doug! It's really good to hear that, as a software engineer and racer, I am very critical of everything and I do not like being late, if you're late at the racetrack it's not good.
@MostlyBonkers believe it or not even though websites are one of my specialties, with everything going on and all of the updates that are happening, we have not put one up yet. It's no trivial matter to keep it up to date in this sort of fast paced process, however now that we are starting to wind down that will make it's way up the priority list.
@Burton, probably easier just to build a splitter on the anderson inlet, but just make sure you don't plug into two different AC outlets at the same time. One awesome thing is depending on what wall outlet your connected to, the app can set constant WATTAGE!! So you set it to charge at say 1.9 or 2kW from a wall outlet and you are good to go because it will auto adjust the draw not to exceed 1.9 or 2kW continuous! and if your wall outlet isn't that good, then you can set it to be 1.4 or 1.6kW but in anycase you're still charging faster. I am able to do 2kW continuous from the regular outlet in my garage, but if I set it to 2.2 the breaker flips, so for these app controlled plugs, you might have to test out your outlets to see what the maximum allowable wattage is.
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I have seen J1772 stations that couldn't even handle the 6300 watts of my current charging set up. Would it be possible to set up a Y adapter to be able to plug 2 J1772 plugs into this charger? This sounds like the only way to really make the most use of this charging system.
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I have seen J1772 stations that couldn't even handle the 6300 watts of my current charging set up. Would it be possible to set up a Y adapter to be able to plug 2 J1772 plugs into this charger? This sounds like the only way to really make the most use of this charging system.
This is a lot harder than it sounds.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8661-Adapter-to-combine-two-30A-level2-into-one-60A-J1772-faster-charging/page2?s=f0ec5b7cc22e6ecdee17b48857d8da7d (http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/8661-Adapter-to-combine-two-30A-level2-into-one-60A-J1772-faster-charging/page2?s=f0ec5b7cc22e6ecdee17b48857d8da7d)
If you follow this thread you will find it is technically possible but hard to find two stations where it would be "work;" in quotes as it could still fail in so many ways.
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@Burton, probably easier just to build a splitter on the anderson inlet
@EC that makes a lot more sense ... for some reason I thought it was J1772 only and you plugged in adapters to that ;)
I melted a GFI in my garage with my stock chargers once :/ ... the app would allow this NOT to happen, very cool.
Having had a past as a technician who assembled laboratory electrical equipment I understand just what it takes to make something this complex.
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From what I can gather, a bunch of enthusiasts have got together and produced something that beats the hell out of Zero's own effort at fast charging via AC. Wow! I'm sure said enthusiasts are actually very experienced electrical engineers in their own right, but still, this is a monumental achievement! Congratulations to you all. Once I finally get on a long awaited Zero, I'm sure a super charger will be at the top of my wish list. [emoji4]
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So manufacturing of the first chargers went pretty well. I never realised just how hard it is to get manufacturing all set up, even with experienced help, and how many moving pieces there are!
THANK YOU Brandon! You're more than absolved; your hard work (and everybody else's) is extremely appreciated. I'm an EE and it really is amazing just how hard it is to get a product shipped, even for people that do it all the time.
I have unit number five, and by all means, keep it until the latest change is implemented. Over-the-air updates are a dream for those of us who deal with Zero's three-years-obsolete app. I also have some experience with that sort of thing, and if the first version of firmware has bugs that's one thing, but if the updater has bugs then you can't update to fix the bugs. The updater has to work correctly out the door.
Just be sure to keep us updated! We're a bunch of five-year-olds waiting for Christmas to arrive. Lots of milk and cookies on the hearth waiting for you.
Electric Cowboy, as a fellow EE I am well aware of the challenges in bringing a product like this to market and as such I echo all of Doug's comments.
While we could ship out chargers upto invoice #9 right now, I think you guys will be pretty stoked with these updates, so we want to make them before we ship otherwise the first 9 wouldn't have as awesome of a charger as the rest of the people who got into the first production run. The rest of the chargers are almost complete, but we are building them with the new features as well.
As the future recipient of serial #9 I also don't have a problem waiting for the bugs to be worked out and I appreciate your dedication to shipping a quality product!
@Burton, probably easier just to build a splitter on the anderson inlet, but just make sure you don't plug into two different AC outlets at the same time. One awesome thing is depending on what wall outlet your connected to, the app can set constant WATTAGE!! So you set it to charge at say 1.9 or 2kW from a wall outlet and you are good to go because it will auto adjust the draw not to exceed 1.9 or 2kW continuous! and if your wall outlet isn't that good, then you can set it to be 1.4 or 1.6kW but in anycase you're still charging faster. I am able to do 2kW continuous from the regular outlet in my garage, but if I set it to 2.2 the breaker flips, so for these app controlled plugs, you might have to test out your outlets to see what the maximum allowable wattage is.
This is AWESOME! Will the output voltage also be programmable? If I want to use it to charge a battery with a different nominal voltage will that be possible (e.g. a 36V or 48V e-bike battery)?
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Thanks for the update Brandon! I'm really excited to get it, but I'm glad you're being thorough and have the chance to get feedback from Terry.
Terry, I'm glad you got the first one too! Thanks for helping!! :)
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@burton
yeah, we kept the modular connector for a few reasons, one, someone might want to switch to a CCS connector in the future both J-Plug and DC is a sweet option if it's available in your area like mine, or in the EU. Or someone might want ChaDeMo as their primary connector. Or maybe... a tesla connector, who knows what the future holds right? Also, once you have had your Super Charger for a few years, you might want to swap out the head, and this just makes it a lot easier. Thankfully software has taught me one thing, don't assume to know what your user wants, just incase things change build modularly.
@mrwilsn
I'll have to double check that we kept support for those low voltages in production before I can say yes or no. We already have one customer with higher voltage BUT the normal control board we are shipping with the chargers is setting the voltage to Zero spec, so we would have to send you an unlocked control board with your unit and an app which supports that. If you want one of those please contact Mike to let him know that is what we need for you.
@Patrick
Thanks man!
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Number 6 checking in, also happy to wait for updates. I don't do long distance winter riding anyway. Cheers!
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Terry,
Have you tried using this charger at a GE Wattstation which requires communication with the BMS before it will charge? I think the PEP stations are the same way. Thanks.
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Yes, please doublecheck it with GE what stations and PEP stations.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hey guys,
Just wanted to let you guys know that we have been getting a lot of awesome data and really thorough testing. Things are coming along well, and I'll give some more details next week on timetable.
For the time being we won't be taking any more orders directly since we have succeeded in our initial goals and needs for bringing the charger to factory production. As of today our initial support price deals have officially ended, and once we or dealers start selling again we will be moving to retail production pricing.
Thank you to everyone who got in early on this and helped us make this happen as crazy fast as it has! Stay tuned :D
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Thanks for the update EC. Any ideas about retail price yet or will that be further down the line when you have more information on production costs etc?
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Sorry Ben and Ultra, I just saw your last comments. I know where there are some GE Watt stations to test not too far away, but I do not know where any PEP stations are within 500 miles or so. I have never gotten a PEP station to work. Their silly yellow air hose looking lines never liked my Vetter bike.
It may be hard to find them, their website is no longer valid (pepstations.com)
And their twitter (https://twitter.com/PEPStations) hasn't been updated in 2 years. I think they are done and all the stations out there will probably be replaced with ChargePoint stations soon would be my guess.
I'm still doing testing and communicating my results. There is a lot more to this than I originally thought. All part of building a great product though. Although things might be delayed a little, all those who ordered in 2015 got the benefit of being able to take the 30% tax credit on the charger this year!!! And also as Brandon referred to you were able to get the pre-dealer direct pricing. All worth the unforeseen delays that have been encountered no doubt!
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Terry,
Honestly the PEP stations aren't a big deal for me. I have only came across one of them in NC. It was at an office complex and the only reason I went there was just to see if I could charge at it with my Elcons.
The GE Wattstations on the other hand are a bigger deal. They are becoming more common in NC and in several cases there are no other charging options close to them. If you plug into them with your Elcons you will get an error message. Basically the GE Wattstation recognizes that it is plugged into something but doesn't recognize what it is. When I tried to charge at a Wattstation in Apex, NC, the guys who installed it were nearby and came over. They got the manual for the machine out and looked up the message and that is what it meant. As you know (but others here may not) when using Elcons you can not always charge with both of them and the internal charger at the same time without tripping the breaker on the station. So sometimes you have to manually adjust by unplugging the internal charger or one of the Elcons. I have charged at Blink systems before where 3800 watts was the best I could do. I think the GE Wattstations require communication with the BMS to determine charging power level prior to turning on power. With most J1772 systems the circuitry in the J1772 plug that we use fools the charging system into turning on the power. That circuitry doesn't work on the GE Wattstations.
Thanks,
Vinny
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Terry, thanks for the update. I won't need it until this summer, so please be thorough with your testing. Cheers mate!
A couple of months ago I came across a new GE Wattstation and it worked with my Elcons. Perhaps they updated the newer models.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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How badly would this void my warranty and/or set the whole bike on fire? :)
Cheers
--G
Unfortunately I have some bad news on the first point raised above.
I learnt yesterday that an email sent from Zero to Streetbike indicates that the use of third party chargers will invalidate the warranty. I was told this because I was talking about how to get the DSP I've ordered home. It had crossed my mind that I could drop by Justin's house and get a top-up from his Elcon. It was kind to get a warning that I might blow the warranty for the battery on day one. Apparently they can see from the logs if a non-Zero charger has been plugged in.
Perhaps the super charger and the Elcons are on a list of approved third party chargers? If not yet, then hopefully Zero will be happy to certify the super charger when it's ready? I know some of you have a close relationship with Zero, so hopefully none of this will be a problem.
Please don't shoot the messenger! I hope this can be dealt with easily by someone working on the project. My apologies if this has already been addressed here and I've missed it.
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Hmm, that'd be a shame!
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I would suspect Zero would be more likely to "support" chargers which talk to BMS. This charger does that, as does the Elcon's you would get from Hollywood Electrics, and of course the ever slow DeltaQ's. (I would love to know which charger they are using for their 2.5kW "tank charger" as I suspect it isn't a Delta Q and it isn't simply a stack of meanwells)
That said I wonder if Zero would be open to testing and certifying third party chargers or if they have some contract which prevents them from doing so (which would be even sadder). I say this because more batteries are not the solution for those who want large miles in a day, but faster charging is. That is till capacity will let you ride all day for the same weight / volume.
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I have followed this thread with great interest, and I take the opportunity to congratulate all of the people involved in this project. Good job.
Zero, is a small company with limited resources, and we understand that. My experience is that although -as a company- they must protect their business interests, IP, etc…they seem to be good/reasonable people, with good will (if this deal were in the table with Honda, BMW, Kawasaki, etc…it will be a lost battle, as they would stick to the well known "warranty standards")
It is clearly agreed that fast charging is a far better advantage than just adding bigger and bigger batteries (in the end we would be riding a truck not a bike) ;D
What options do I see?
- Zero sticks to the warranty business (hopefully not), and this becomes a non supported option
- Zero certifies/homologates the charger, and respects users warranty terms
- Zero "License" the charger, and keeps the warranty
- Zero comes up with a private labeling agreement with the designers/inventors and offers it as "high power charger" (taking advantage of their supply chain and economies of scale it should be a great deal)
I would like to believe that those members close to Zero are already in discussions with them
Why not use external resources to get options developed and use internal ones to be focused in "core" products/designs?
(I have done that myself and it works pretty well)
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The Zero can protect itself from any abuse you can bring to it from charging. So I don't think Zero is too worried about it. Officially anything you do to the bike except ride it will void the warranty. And if Zero wanted to push this issue, they have the right, but as was said by Lipo, the company has goodwill and wants to see the adoption rate increase, and to have customers who are happy and talk about it to their friends.
I said the Zero can protect itself from anything you can do to it from charging. It can. If you were to ever use a cheap Chinese charger on the bike that were to fail in any way, it will not harm the batteries.
Say the charger gets stuck in CC mode and never enters CV? The BMS will open the contactor as soon as a single cell goes over 4.15v to basically disconnect the charger from the bike.
Say the charger has an internal short and starts sucking power from the bike? If a current spike going in or out exceeds 100 amps on the 2015, the bikes onboard charge fuse will protect the bike.
Say the charger has different power settings and you accidentally turn it up to 20 kW? If the charge rate exceeds 1C, the BMS will open the contactor and disconnect the charger.
Say the charger tries charging the batteries when they are too hot? As soon as the cells hit 50C the contactor will open and protect the batteries.
I'm sure I can think of many other things but you get the point. Plus with well designed chargers like the Elcons with the Hollywood Electrics kit that listen to the enable signal from the bike, there are multiple levels of redundancy to protect the bike and the batteries. I think at least 50 Zero owners now use the Elcons from Hollywood Electrics, and I have yet to hear about Zero refusing a warranty issue because of anything else going wrong on the bike.
So while you are correct Bonkers, if you email Zero directly and ask them if using a 3rd party charger will void the warranty, the official company line for legal reasons has to be yes. Think about it. I mean really think about it...
So yes, using an aftermarket charger is a risk of having a warranty claim rejected, with a benefit of being able to travel and get more enjoyment out of your bike and life in general.
If you take pride in worrying yourself to death, I would recommend buying the Zero Charge Tank later this spring. It too should be a great product and is a little less expensive, just has less power. Although if you worry about these things, I might also recommend not ever leaving your house. It's a dangerous world out there, and something could happen, right? Better not take a chance. ;)
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That's good news Terry. Zero shouldn't have a problem certifying the Diginow charger when it's ready then. ;-)
Unfortunately most people don't have the level of knowledge and experience that you do with the technology, charging and indeed personal relationships with people working for Zero and Diginow. Most people make an assessment about a high value product, which the fast charger certainly is, and then look to see what warranty and customer service covers them if something goes wrong. It's bad enough having to go through processes around warranty claims when there is a problem but at least you know the issue will get resolved ultimately. If there is no warranty, it just leaves the customer at the mercy of whoever they happen to find themselves dealing with.
Since my last post, I've had confirmation that the Diginow fast charger is not supported by Zero and will void the battery warranty. That's a little like Yamaha saying you'll void your ICE engine warranty if you fill up at Texaco instead of Shell. Isn't there some onus on Zero to test and certify the most common chargers with their equipment? It sounds like they've gone to great lengths to put protective measures in place to avoid damage to the BMS or batteries.
Personally, I hope Zero embrace the Diginow charger with open arms as it will encourage more people to buy their bikes. I'm sure this is just a matter of timing and the right people from each camp talking to each other.
If they had their own product that was as good, then it might be a little different. The charge tank should be capable of charging the bike at 1C, or as close to it as the BMS will allow just like the Diginow. Instead, at only 2.5kW it's no different to a single Elcon, thus it will take approximately 4hrs to provide a 10kWh charge. For someone with a power tank, that's likely to be at least the amount of power they will need for a top-up if they're touring and I'm sure they won't want to stop for 3-4 hours every 100 miles or so. Oops, just remembered you can't fit a power tank if you have a charge tank... I know you can use the on-board charger at the same time, but I imagine many charge stations just provide one lead to plug in at a time. Even so, it's still a 3 hour charge to top up a recent model year bike without a power tank.
Rather than trying to avoid the issue and risk storing up problems for the future (angry customers trying to sue Diginow because Zero won't replace their faulty BMS), it would be nice to hear that somebody is talking to Zero to get this warranty voiding issue resolved. I'm sure I'm not the only person who would think twice about using a fast charger if I knew it would void the warranty.
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Look Bonkers, I understand your concern, and 10 years ago I would have thought the same thing that if something made sense that it should happen no matter what and it was someone's job to do that and everything that everyone thought made sense.
But that's just not how the world works. You mention Yamaha. If you put an aftermarket pipe on your bike, and shortly after your exhaust valves burn out, Yamaha will show you the fine print that an aftermarket pipe voids your warranty.
However, I'd say half of all sport bikes on the planet have an aftermarket pipe. Why? Because companies like Yoshimura, Two Brothers, Akrapovic, Vance & Hines, Leo Vince and many more are trusted by the public to make a good product that will not damage the bike. It is not Yamaha's job to test each exhaust system and give it a stamp of approval. If there is only one pipe maker on the planet, you might ask Yamaha to test it and promise you it won't void their warranty. What when there are 2 pipe makers? How about 100 pipe makers each year for each bike they have? Is it still Yamaha's job to test all these now?
So what happens in 5 or 10 years when there are 100 aftermarket chargers on the market that work with Zero's? All different power levels. All different sizes. All different adapters. I can't wait for the handlebar insert and bar end charger. I'm gonna get two of them, one for each side. 500 watts each using micro silicon carbide mosfets and super tiny. Just kidding not a real product that is in development, but one day I'm sure it could be. But you see the point? Would you still feel it's Zero's job to test each and every one of these aftermarket chargers on each of their bikes in all sorts of conditions each year? Of course not.
And because of that I can say with a high degree of certainty Zero will never "certify" the Elcons, aftermarket meanwells, the Diginow or any other chargers that currently work with Zero's. It's just not gonna happen.
Does that mean you should never put an aftermarket pipe on your Yamaha or put an aftermarket charger on your Zero? Or Jailbreak your iPhone? Or remove the tags from your under your mattress? Or anything else that voids the warranty on hundreds of items that people use every day?
Use common sense. If bikes were blowing up from aftermarket pipes, then people would talk about it and not do it any more. If using aftermarket chargers for the past 4 years like the Elcons was causing some problem to the Zero, then people would talk about it and not do it any more. If jailbreaking your iPhone was causing it to crash permanently and Apple said it's your fault, buy a new phone at full price, then people would talk about it and not do it any more.
Point is, Zero might embrace these chargers knowing that they will help more people buy their motorcycles, but I wouldn't hold my breath if you are waiting for them to ever certify it. That's never gonna happen.
I know you like to worry about things Bonkers, so I am recommending you buy the official Zero Charge Tank this spring! First of all it is a great product! And it lets you charge at 3.8 kW combined! That's 3 times better than ever before! And especially if you don't really want to take really long trips, it's perfect to charge at that rate. Let the braver early adopters who want to travel farther and charge faster test the new aftermarket products for you until you think the sample size is large enough to satisfy your concerns.
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Sorry to get upset at you Bonkers, I know you are just trying to help ask questions, and you have hundreds of concerns. I'm assuming that because all these concerns are racing around in your head, you must not have your Zero yet. Didn't you say you were getting it at the first of the year? I'm waiting for that time, as I look forward to us discussing real things that are happening instead of hypothetical concerns no one has ever experienced and may never.
I guess I'm a believer in the saying "If something isn't broken, don't fix it". People have been using aftermarket chargers on Zero's for a long time. Each one has voided their warranty. Why are we making an issue of this now when there has never been a problem?
You mention what happens if you start using the diginow charger and the BMS fails? Well, if there is the smallest chance that the charger caused the BMS to fail, guess what? You need to buy another BMS! That is not Zero's fault. However, if there was a known issue that BMS's were failing on bikes that didn't have an aftermarket charger, and you had the same symptoms they did, guess what? I'd be willing to bet Zero would help fix your BMS, even though you were using an aftermarket charger sold through a trusted retailer like Hollywood Electrics, and these chargers had never caused any problems before. Does that sound logical?
Get the bike! Ride it! It will fix everything! :)
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Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly Terry. I was in two minds about bringing the question about warranties up if I'm honest. We probably both wish I hadn't! It's only because it came up when discussing a potential route home with the new bike and getting a quick charge from Justin's Elcon.
I was all set to try and pick the bike up on 2nd Jan, although I knew that was a bit ambitious with it being Christmas. I was told that the 9th was more realistic and then that was put back to 16th due to the delays imposed by the registration paperwork. The 20th is a more likely date though, due to my availability and who's available at Streetbike on which day. Soon I hope!
If nothing else, I think some useful content has been added to this topic. People can make of it what they will and hopefully the net result is that they'll feel reassured that Zero have enough safeguards in place that using a good quality 3rd party charger like the Elcon and Diginow products won't be the cause of any BMS or battery failures. Also, that if there is an internal battery or BMS fault unrelated to charging which requires a warranty claim, that Zero will do the decent thing and honour the warranty despite this technicality that has been raised. Fair enough, I guess! Thanks Terry, I'm sure others will appreciate this too. :)
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Bonkers, have no regrets for asking the questions about the factory warranty interacting with aftermarket parts, I'm certain the same questions were/will be on the minds of many people seeking faster charging solutions than Zero has provided and the discussion is very relevant. This is especially true in light of the fact that the new charge tank being only as good as a single Elcon, aftermarket solutions are still very desirable. Your concerns were definitely reasonable, these bikes and accessories are both expensive and powerful and proper care should be taken with any vehicle powertrain decisions. I'm glad to hear about the protective features the zero comes with beyond the input fuse, and Terry was able to convey a lot of good points that I hadn't considered about the design of the BMS on the zero as it relates to fast chargers. Thanks for the info!
-Chris
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Not gonna stop me using fast chargers on my new SR when I get it, that's for sure...
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Thanks Chris, it's always good to hear some positive feedback. I don't mind getting criticised too, as long as we keep moving forward. [emoji4]
On balance, I'm with Justin, Terry and everyone else who is willing to care less about the unlikely consequences. I also have faith that Zero would investigate an issue thoroughly enough to determine the root cause. If someone has been using a dodgy charging solution that somehow bypasses all the safeguards, then Zero shouldn't have to carry the cost. The risk of using an Elcon or Diginow based on Terry's info is negligible. The care being taken to test this new Diginow charger thoroughly and the people involved in the project gives me complete confidence.
I'm still a little concerned about how less informed customers might view the warranty situation, although I'm sure many won't even ask the question at the point of sale. Hopefully the worriers will be motivated to find this forum and will have their fears ameliorated.
I think this forum has an absolutely vital part to play in this fledgling industry. I've spent hardly any time on other forums relating to ICE bikes that I've actually owned!
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I think they should spill the beans....
Everyone keeps saying thru dealers....? So does this mean its going to cost 3500 from only zero dealers?
The warrentee thing.... Well its kinda a big deal!!!! And if dginow is working with zero and selling it at dealers only now.... i dont see why Zero cant hologate it for charging their bikes if they dont and it truely does void the warrentee.... A lot less are going to buy one.... Why would you it voids the warrentee on more than 85% of the cost of the bike....
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Updates coming along well with a big thank you to Electric Terry!!!!
(http://i.imgur.com/IWzSbcH.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/yvkZNOW.jpg)
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Forgive me if its been stated but what are the dimensions, I'm curious about it fitting in a top box with my helmet etc, or would it fit in the e21 side cases
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Forgive me if its been stated but what are the dimensions, I'm curious about it fitting in a top box with my helmet etc, or would it fit in the e21 side cases
The form factor was chosen to fit in the bracket under the tank designed for the OEM Power Tank, so it's relatively compact.
I believe we noticed that it is too wide for a Givi E21 side case, though. A 30+ liter side case should handle it better, although it's quite heavy so a top case placement would be better (unless you heavily counterweight it), and really the tank position is best for vehicle dynamics and stability of the installation. One concern is routing the high-load cabling, for example.
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I think only Terry could say how well a top box install works yet. I look forward to hearing how his testing worked out.
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If I were to get one I would put it in the "tank" area on my current 2013 "S" , but down the road if a new bike were to suddenly appear with a power tank I was wondering where I could fit it without loosing the functionality of my top box as a helmet storage area
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It works extremely well in a top case. However with the standard Zero top case it's not big enough to hold both the supercharger and a full face helmet at the same time. I bought a locking clip from Cycle Gear and lock my helmet to the bike through the D rings and passenger footpeg bracket holes. Works perfect.
Although I am going to test a 55 liter top case soon to see if I can hold a helmet and a supercharger. (or in my case perhaps one day 2 superchargers ;) )
However it is ultimately designed to fit where a powertank would go, so keep that in mind.
I am glad to hear that lots of my recommendations are going into the production units. I know this has caused the product release to be delayed by a bit, but in the end I think you all will appreciate it even more.
Thanks everyone for being patient. I know Electric Cowboy and the guys at DigiNow appreciate it too.
It's awesome to see the production line in full swing! Should be real soon I would guess that they arrive for those who preordered. :)
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It works extremely well in a top case. However with the standard Zero top case it's not big enough to hold both the supercharger and a full face helmet at the same time. I bought a locking clip from Cycle Gear and lock my helmet to the bike through the D rings and passenger footpeg bracket holes. Works perfect.
Although I am going to test a 55 liter top case soon to see if I can hold a helmet and a supercharger. (or in my case perhaps one day 2 superchargers ;) )
A Givi Maxia case is amazing, like a car trunk. I'm going to transfer my V-Strom's case over to my Zero pretty soon.
Did you permanently route your cable through a hole in the case or do you just run it into the Anderson port after opening the case?
Two superchargers would be insane. But I think that's your role.
However it is ultimately designed to fit where a powertank would go, so keep that in mind.
I am glad to hear that lots of my recommendations are going into the production units. I know this has caused the product release to be delayed by a bit, but in the end I think you all will appreciate it even more.
Thanks everyone for being patient. I know Electric Cowboy and the guys at DigiNow appreciate it too.
It's awesome to see the production line in full swing! Should be real soon I would guess that they arrive for those who preordered. :)
I'm glad to hear this, and thankful that El Niño weather has dampened my itch to go touring while they tweak the product.
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Brian for now I just open the case and connect the Anderson cable. I have to open the case to plug in the J1772 anyway. Takes about 15 seconds for the whole deal. Perhaps if I get a larger case I might drill holes in the case to permanently run the cables and make a hole for the J1772 as well, but it's so easy now, I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
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Yes, that makes sense. I have to admit being surprised fishing around the 2016 DSR for the Anderson connector because it was just so conveniently placed compared to the 2013. Again, due to some early customer feedback. ;)
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Although I am going to test a 55 liter top case soon to see if I can hold a helmet and a supercharger. (or in my case perhaps one day 2 superchargers ;) )
Very interesting because you'll be pushing boundaries(again ;D) on the batteries. To run 2 superchargers at full power you would at least replace the fuses with larger ones and how will the pack cope with that kind of amperage?
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Although I am going to test a 55 liter top case soon to see if I can hold a helmet and a supercharger. (or in my case perhaps one day 2 superchargers ;) )
Very interesting because you'll be pushing boundaries(again ;D) on the batteries. To run 2 superchargers at full power you would at least replace the fuses with larger ones and how will the pack cope with that kind of amperage?
If he expands the battery pack it'd be a little gentler to use two superchargers.. add two more ZF3 bricks to a full ZF 12.5 PT bike and you'd have about 20 kWh..
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Any news Electric Cowboy? Now I've finally got my hands on a Zero, the very next thing I want is a fast charging solution. Can't afford one right now, but I've got a better understanding of how eager your first customers must be to get their hands on one! [emoji4]
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If they can get close to an hour, the market can expand when recharge stations come on line; say the I-95 corridor. If you can get a 200 mile ride in, stop for lunch and charge, then go, you can cover ~ 400 miles (or more if you stop again).
Jerry
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To have a 200mi range and a 1hr recharge time we would need a 20kWh battery (probably a bit more) and charging rates of 20kW or better.
The charging stations already exist and are in place now. CCS and CHAdeMO charging stations all work at 25kW or more. All we need is a way to access them. My hope is that Zero has put DC fast charging as their top priority. #1.
The 20kWh battery seems to be coming. If Zero (or their battery maker Farasis) keeps making similar improvements, we'll have one by 2020.
That should be the tipping point. We'll be able to charge as fast as a Tesla (in miles per hour of charging) using CCS or CHAdeMO as soon as we can connect to them. Hadn't thought about that before... this is exciting!
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To have a 200mi range and a 1hr recharge time we would need a 20kWh battery (probably a bit more) and charging rates of 20kW or better.
The charging stations already exist and are in place now. CCS and CHAdeMO charging stations all work at 25kW or more. All we need is a way to access them. My hope is that Zero has put DC fast charging as their top priority. #1.
The 20kWh battery seems to be coming. If Zero (or their battery maker Farasis) keeps making similar improvements, we'll have one by 2020.
That should be the tipping point. We'll be able to charge as fast as a Tesla (in miles per hour of charging) using CCS or CHAdeMO as soon as we can connect to them. Hadn't thought about that before... this is exciting!
That's the thinking, now you're cooking with gas...
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Ben I still want those 10X future (theoretical) batteries Luke Workman from Zero talked about "1000 mile range on our four brick set up" that is the true end game. Damn dendrites. :)
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The 20kWh battery seems to be coming. If Zero (or their battery maker Farasis) keeps making similar improvements, we'll have one by 2020.
And Zero will have come up with new and fun ways to blow that power even quicker... ;)
Such as (wicked and scurrilous) rumors that Luke is working on tying two Size 4 Controllers together to build an even quicker version of the SR.
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Two controllers sounds tricky to me. I'd love to try it though. Perhaps when they implement traction control? I managed to spin up the rear wheel on my VFR at about 70mph going up a slip road to join the A1 the other week. I fear an SR might have thrown me.
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Yeah, I'm wondering if Sevcon are planning/working on a low voltage Size 8 controller, and Zero are figuring out what the implications might be.
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Ben I still want those 10X future (theoretical) batteries Luke Workman from Zero talked about "1000 mile range on our four brick set up" that is the true end game. Damn dendrites. :)
In that case I want a single brick 250 mile bike with less cost, weight, and better acceleration ;)
.. unless the 1000 mile bike charges more quickly (100 kWh into a Tesla Supercharger should do 0-50% in about 20 minutes, similar to Tesla..)
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Ben I still want those 10X future (theoretical) batteries Luke Workman from Zero talked about "1000 mile range on our four brick set up" that is the true end game. Damn dendrites. :)
In that case I want a single brick 250 mile bike with less cost, weight, and better acceleration ;)
.. unless the 1000 mile bike charges more quickly (100 kWh into a Tesla Supercharger should do 0-50% in about 20 minutes, similar to Tesla..)
yeah.. even if we had the huge capacity, and the on-board charger that can handle 8C(or whatever) high speed charging... there is still the not-so-small problem of getting electricity to the charger.
Thats the real bottleneck for the cars right now... you COULD charge faster, but the power grid can only supply so much to that location.
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The 20kWh battery seems to be coming. If Zero (or their battery maker Farasis) keeps making similar improvements, we'll have one by 2020.
And Zero will have come up with new and fun ways to blow that power even quicker... ;)
Such as (wicked and scurrilous) rumors that Luke is working on tying two Size 4 Controllers together to build an even quicker version of the SR.
Easier than doing dual motors and a controller than can handle it trying to match encoder angles would be basically impossible
With 2 complete seperate systems you only have to "split and amplify" the throttle wires.....
A go kart with 2 fx platforms has been discussed, maybe in the future.... Seems like alot of stuff to break!!!! Like wheels axles everything attached to the driveline
Your playing with fire IMO with 2 motors and controllers on any platform, it would be 150 ft lbs basicslly instantly.... Your gonna be completely traction limited.... But the fun factor im sure would be out of this world...
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Ben I still want those 10X future (theoretical) batteries Luke Workman from Zero talked about "1000 mile range on our four brick set up" that is the true end game. Damn dendrites. :)
In that case I want a single brick 250 mile bike with less cost, weight, and better acceleration ;)
.. unless the 1000 mile bike charges more quickly (100 kWh into a Tesla Supercharger should do 0-50% in about 20 minutes, similar to Tesla..)
yeah.. even if we had the huge capacity, and the on-board charger that can handle 8C(or whatever) high speed charging... there is still the not-so-small problem of getting electricity to the charger.
Thats the real bottleneck for the cars right now... you COULD charge faster, but the power grid can only supply so much to that location.
New2Elec - Definitely! If they can fit 100kWh in the same volume as our monolith now, that would be incredible! Even 250 or 300 would be a game changer.
MrDude_1, there are already chargers along highways that can supply the charge rate we need to get 170mi of range in 20 minutes (50kW, which is a 3.3C charge rate). That would give us a 3 hour ride with a 20 minute stop to recharge. I guarantee that my stops will be longer than 20 minutes after riding 3 hours!
There are 50kW CCS chargers already in the ground and BMW is planning to install thousands more (not an exaggeration) with enough power to charge up to 200kW! Since electric motorcycles go about 10mi/kWh (at 60mi/hr) the calculations are pretty straightforward. With today's batteries (about 15kWh) the charging infrastructure can already add 170mi in 20 minutes, we just need a bike capable of utilizing those charging stations.
The future is bright and it is filled with nearly silent burnouts and wicked acceleration!
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Yup here in West-Europe the fast charging infrastructure already pretty much has decent coverage, now it is a matter of fine-graining it even more.
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To have a 200mi range and a 1hr recharge time we would need a 20kWh battery (probably a bit more)
I'd say that you'd need closer to a 28kWh nominal battery to achieve 200mi.
My own experience from my three bikes is that holding 50mph (with ocassional 30mph through towns) seems to averages at 7 miles per kWh.
(So far I have recorded averages of 6.8 miles per kWh on the 2012 ZF9, 7 miles per kWh on my 2013 S, and 6.9 miles per kWh on my SR)
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To have a 200mi range and a 1hr recharge time we would need a 20kWh battery (probably a bit more)
I'd say that you'd need closer to a 28kWh nominal battery to achieve 200mi.
My own experience from my three bikes is that holding 50mph (with ocassional 30mph through towns) seems to averages at 7 miles per kWh.
(So far I have recorded averages of 6.8 miles per kWh on the 2012 ZF9, 7 miles per kWh on my 2013 S, and 6.9 miles per kWh on my SR)
Hopefully aerodynamics will improve soon which will significantly increase that. or what i'm hoping is a commercially available bolt on sporty looking fairing will be available to double range at 75-80 mph. I know in Texas the speed limit is85 mph in some places. You would more than double range at those speeds and your motor would never get hot because it only has to put out half the power. And your rear tire would last 25,000 miles. Mine did.
In may last year I went over 300 miles on a single charge with 27 kWh onboard riding the interstate in the fast lane at speeds often over 70-75 mph. This was on the Vetter streamlined 2012 Zero.
So that is about 100 miles at 70-75 mph per 9 kwh of battery given good streamlining
Without streamlining it's between a third and half that range.
Adding double the battery just means a lot more cost, a lot more weight, a lot more space (where do you put it all?) and a lot more onboard charging capacity, and you need to source that amount of power at each charging stop.
Isn't it just easier to have an aerodynamic fairing? it fixes all those 5 issues all at once!
A stock 5 brick Zero with a Vetter fairing and a Hollywood Electrics Elcon kit could cross the country in less than 3 days.
That's 150 miles per charge at highway speeds, and 2 hours of charging.
2 hours riding at 75 mph, 2 hours charging from a standard J plug.
2500 miles to cross the US at 150 miles every 4 hours and that's about 67 hours. Throw in some sleep and easily in less than 4 days.
Without aerodynamics to do it in 67 hours
You would need 30 kWh of battery on the bike, bringing the weight to over 600 pounds for the bike alone.
This is just to get through west texas, Arizona and New Mexico where locations with high power electricity can be 150 miles apart. Otherwise you could do it with less battery, but would spend a lot of time charging at 110v which would make some stops 8 hours or more. To charge 30 kWh in 2 hours, you will need 15 kW of charging. That would be 6 Elcons. Your bike already weighs over 600 pounds and now you need another 100 pounds in chargers. And then where do you source 15 kW? I know how because I've done it, but it's a pain and requires another 100 pounds of thick AWG 14-50 extension cords that can weigh 50 pounds themselves to stretch 100 feet at RV parks that stagger 50 amp sites with 30 amp sites. And some places you wont be able to do that at all. You will only be able to get 6 kW from a public Jplug because the RV park is full or only has 30 amp outlets left. In that case to charge 30 kWh at 6 kW it will take you 5 hours. About the best you can hope for is 5-6 days I think.
Even with all the battery and charging you will still be twice as slow as a bike that has half the coefficient of drag. Plus you will weigh twice as much and the bike and chargers and cables will probably also double the cost.
I can't repeat it enough. More battery is good. Charging fast is better, but aerodynamics make logical sense in every way first.
Yet I can't deny that marketing shows people are scared to look different. Everyone wants to look the same as everyone else because they are afraid their friends will make fun of them. When you are riding the bike down the road all you see is the road, so it doesn't matter if the bike looked like spongebob with his squarepants.
Changing perception takes time. When the Ford Taurus came out in 1986 everyone hated how it looked. (it was so strange looking then they used it as the police cars in the movie Robocop) Now almost every car made is more aerodynamic than the Taurus was.
http://www.ford-taurus.org/taurusinfo/Specials/RoboCopMovie/RoboCop2.jpg (http://www.ford-taurus.org/taurusinfo/Specials/RoboCopMovie/RoboCop2.jpg)
Point is you can't say I will never like the way that looks. All you can say is I've been programmed not to like the way that looks now, but that could easily change.
I'm not saying a full Vetter streamliner is for everyone, but i'd like to see something halfway between that and the looks of sportbikes like the Hayabusa.
I love Zero but I always laugh at their motto. "Zero Motorcycles is unencumbered by conventional thinking about how we design, manufacture and sell high performance electric motorcycles" There is a typo there.
What they meant to say is "Zero Motorcycles is VERY encumbered by conventional thinking about how we design our motorcycles to look like everyone else's motorcycles on the market"
And rightfully so, because otherwise no one would buy them. The problem isn't that the science isn't there to do anything we want today easily.
The problem is for most of us, science is much less important than our fear of looking different. That our ego might be hurt by someone making fun of how our bike looks. Maybe one day that will change and people won't fear being different if it makes scientific sense to do so. One day a low cost aerodynamic motorcycle can come out of the closet without fear of ridicule by haters.
One day we can only hope. Until then, we must "charge on" as fast as we can (pun intended)
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Bloody brilliant Terry! I hope someone at Zero is listening. How's your testing going? Any news?
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Good write up Terry. I just wanted to comment on one thing, in the foreseeable future the fast charger will stand on the side on of the road instead of having to take it with you in a top case.
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Erasmo YES YES YES! The stations should be able to charge at any rate at any voltage at any amperage AC/DC whatever. If the EV's were to really catch on and you had thousands of them in every city why would everyone carry around a $3000 charger that only gets used when they charge it instead of having the charging equipment stay with the station for everybody to use.
Now don't get me wrong the elcons and digi chargers are solving a problem that people have NOW so it is the best option for now and I applaud the EE's who are able to make things like this happen. But logistically it would be better to have the charging equipment at the stations. Like I said on page one it's like carrying an oil refinery in your car.
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I absolutely agree Terry, and I was really hoping that Zero was going to announce a fairing for its 2016 line, and was quite disappointed that they did'nt.
Fixing the Cd of the bike is tricky however, even the default riding position is not really that great in that regard either.
I too would like to see a more "stylish" vetter, or vetter like fairing. :)
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Something like the land speed type fairings might make a reasonable compromise between performance and aesthetics.
(http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/images/hayabusalandspeedfairings2.jpg)
Obviously they would need to accommodate headlights, blinkers, license plates, etc., but clear plastic in the right spots should allow those without impacting performance much. The look of the Vetter fairing, though the king of performance, just does not appeal to me. The land speed look works for me, but I suspect costs would be more than I could justify at this time.
http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/landspeed/landspeed.htm (http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/landspeed/landspeed.htm)
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BMW also had a nice design with the K1:(http://kickstart.bikeexif.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/bmw_k1.jpg)
Erasmo YES YES YES! The stations should be able to charge at any rate at any voltage at any amperage AC/DC whatever. If the EV's were to really catch on and you had thousands of them in every city why would everyone carry around a $3000 charger that only gets used when they charge it instead of having the charging equipment stay with the station for everybody to use.
Now don't get me wrong the elcons and digi chargers are solving a problem that people have NOW so it is the best option for now and I applaud the EE's who are able to make things like this happen. But logistically it would be better to have the charging equipment at the stations. Like I said on page one it's like carrying an oil refinery in your car.
That's something ABB had understood very well:
(http://www.abb-conversations.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/ABB-electric-vehicle-multi-standard-DC-fast-charging-station-Terra-53-CJG.jpg)
High power(43kW) AC, CCS and Chademo in one unit.
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Yet I can't deny that marketing shows people are scared to look different. Everyone wants to look the same as everyone else because they are afraid their friends will make fun of them. When you are riding the bike down the road all you see is the road, so it doesn't matter if the bike looked like spongebob with his squarepants.
I'm not saying a full Vetter streamliner is for everyone, but i'd like to see something halfway between that and the looks of sportbikes like the Hayabusa.
I love Zero but I always laugh at their motto. "Zero Motorcycles is unencumbered by conventional thinking about how we design, manufacture and sell high performance electric motorcycles" There is a typo there.
What they meant to say is "Zero Motorcycles is VERY encumbered by conventional thinking about how we design our motorcycles to look like everyone else's motorcycles on the market"
And rightfully so, because otherwise no one would buy them. The problem isn't that the science isn't there to do anything we want today easily.
I agree with you but I don't accept it as a valid excuse from Zero.
Honestly, better aero is such an obvious and cost effective solution Zero should be embarrassed they haven't addressed it by now. Especially since they could easily improve range 15% with a design that was focused on aesthetics but followed very basic aero principals. No wind tunnel testing required. (Just ask ZEV for some pointers, right benswing?[emoji6]
Zero could easily offer one or more dealer installed fairing options without jeopardizing sales because it looks outside the norm. Once they have an outer mold line design and they do the engineering to mount it for one year/model the additional engineering for them to make it available as a retrofit kit for almost every bike they have made is relatively small.
You have to be bold enough to offer something new and different before you can start changing perception.
Imagine walking into a Zero dealer and the salesman says to you...
"Here's the Zero SR. The stock naked bike can go 80 miles at 70mph. We offer an aftermarket sport fairing for an extra $600 installed that will boost range to 100 miles. We also offer a streamliner fairing that will boost range to 150 miles which costs $1k installed and the kit also adds more storage space. You keep the stock plastic and it will take you about an hour if you ever want to switch back to stock."
Now imagine you are the proud owner of an older model S (or SR, DS etc.) and Zero announces that you can buy these fairings from a dealer to retrofit your bike.
Any takers?
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You guys do realize that nothing is stopping you from getting some sharkskinz and fitting them like every other racer does...right?
Or is that a stopper because it will look like a CBR/S1000R/R1/R6/ducati/aprillia/gsxr??
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You guys do realize that nothing is stopping you from getting some sharkskinz and fitting them like every other racer does...right?
Or is that a stopper because it will look like a CBR/S1000R/R1/R6/ducati/aprillia/gsxr??
Unlikely to fit a DS, and someone has to take the risk of verifying fit the first time on an S/SR and explain the mounting to others. Also, racing fairings are probably not going to reduce drag enough per the cost.
They're in Florida, apparently, which might help if someone nearby them visits in person for a fitment.
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Terry you made a nice post…
This is a quite interesting discussion, each of us -either stated or not- have different specific requirements…while mostly of us do need/want more range (wherever is coming from. Batteries, charging...), aesthetics are also important (I personally would like to ride a bike, not a tank)
This conversation may took place at Zero at some point:
Marketing: We need to follow the latest market trends (naked, but powerful bikes)
Engineering: We need to get more range and power (overall performance)
Service: Bikes have to be serviced easily and do not break down (serviceability and reliability)
Sales: We need to get everything! (sales always want everything) :D
Management: We need to make money
Zero will come up with a new platform in around 2018, which hopefully will have a little of everything (just to make a simple statement)
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Are we still speaking hypothetically?
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Interesting discussion...
Just wanted to point out, it's not just an aesthetics issue.
In the US, motorbikes are primarily leisure gadgets. Virtually everyone owning one has a car (or cars, plural) as their primary form of transport.
This isn't the case everywhere.
Those full aerodynamic fairings are simply too large (both length- & width-wise) -- any bike I own has to be able to park on a narrow urban sidewalk, otherwise it's not usable as transportation.
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With all of the recent advancements in 3D printing we may be able to design and print our own fairings out before they are released by Zero.
Anyone have access to a nice print and design setup? :P
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With all of the recent advancements in 3D printing we may be able to design and print our own fairings out before they are released by Zero.
Anyone have access to a nice print and design setup? :P
Even without them, for low volume production you just need to make one in the shape you want... then pull a mold from it.
That said, it would be silly when you can just bolt up cheap production fiberglass ones intended for other bikes...
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With all of the recent advancements in 3D printing we may be able to design and print our own fairings out before they are released by Zero.
Anyone have access to a nice print and design setup? :P
Even without them, for low volume production you just need to make one in the shape you want... then pull a mold from it.
That said, it would be silly when you can just bolt up cheap production fiberglass ones intended for other bikes...
Someone has to step up and do this. I'm focussed right now on adapting a very large aerodynamic windshield, which is something, but it's unclear how to improve the lower half with off the shelf fairings, particularly for the DS.
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I thought Craig Vetter was planning on releasing a fairing -- didn't Terry solicit info here a while back on what people would want from (and be willing to pay for) a fairing? I haven't heard anything on that for a while, and the Vetter site doesn't seem to refer to it either.
A non-fully-streamlined fairing wouldn't give the range improvement Terry gets with his setup, but I'm sure a sport-tourer type fairing could still improve highway range by 30%-40%+... That would certainly be significant, and less expensive and less weight than add-on batteries.
Since Zero didn't add fairing options in the 2016 models, there's a clear market opportunity for 3d-party ones, at the very least until the next model update in (presumably) 2017.
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I thought Craig Vetter was planning on releasing a fairing -- didn't Terry solicit info here a while back on what people would want from (and be willing to pay for) a fairing? I haven't heard anything on that for a while, and the Vetter site doesn't seem to refer to it either.
There hasn't been much (if any) information about that project since Craig's accident this summer. I asked him about it when I was up in Hollister on July 4, and he said he was hoping to be able to get to it by the end of the summer, but wasn't optimistic...then he had his accident a few weeks later. No word about his recovery so far on his website, wikipedia or anywhere that I'm aware of. Perhaps Terry knows more?
As much as I'd love for Craig to do what he does better than anybody else, I'm not holding my breath. The guy's 73 years old, for crying out loud...we should all be productive for so long and do so much for our sport.
But back to the original topic, aerodynamics are wonderful, and I can't wait for something to happen on that front, but we need fast charging too. No matter how aerodynamic our bikes get, we'll never be able to properly tour without the ability to recharge quickly and frequently. I'm hoping that one year I'll be able to RIDE up to Craig's event from San Diego instead of trailering my bike. Aerodynamics alone will never get me there.
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I think if you send Carol the money (they take PayPal) they can have a Last Better Fairing made in about 10 days. I was ready to order in December for pickup in january but family and work obligations got in the way. I'll probably still do it.
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http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/Last%20Vetter%20Fairing.html (http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470MPG/Last%20Vetter%20Fairing.html)
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/Online_Store/Streamliner%20Superstore.html (http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/Online_Store/Streamliner%20Superstore.html)
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You guys, the "Last Vetter Fairing" sadly was perhaps foreshadowing. Craig's accident with a deer, compounded with not wearing a full face helmet, has him still recovering from TBI. Traumatic Brain Injury. This recovery has been incredibly slow and it's unclear whether it will ever be 100%.
What many of us were hoping for was a fairing halfway between the Last Vetter Fairing design, and a modern sport bike. At least I was. it would not have doubled or tripled highway range like the current design, but even if just 50% highway range improvement would have been highly desirable in a simple, lightweight, attractive package.
There was no one better suited to do this in the world. He even bought a Zero shortly before his accident, and had plans to buy another for this purpose. Then without warning I get news that a ~250 pound deer hit him at a high rate of speed. Things have not been the same since.
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That's horrible news :'(
I'm speechless. I hope he can recover completely from this.
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That is terrible news, Terry. The worst thing in the world for a workhorse like Craig Vetter is to not be able to work any more.
What many of us were hoping for was a fairing halfway between the Last Vetter Fairing design, and a modern sport bike. At least I was.
For myself, I'm really hoping for the best aerodynamic solution that's not ridiculously bulky (i.e. no 10-foot tails). Aesthetics are a distant second consideration for me, I just want to ride as far as I possibly can on a charge, and charge again as fast as possible.
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That's horrible news :'(
I'm speechless. I hope he can recover completely from this.
The family have been posting updates about Craig here.
http://www.vetterowners.com/threads/craig-vetter-seriously-injured-in-streetbike-crash.884/page-2 (http://www.vetterowners.com/threads/craig-vetter-seriously-injured-in-streetbike-crash.884/page-2)
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I absolutely agree Terry, and I was really hoping that Zero was going to announce a fairing for its 2016 line, and was quite disappointed that they did'nt.
Fixing the Cd of the bike is tricky however, even the default riding position is not really that great in that regard either.
I too would like to see a more "stylish" vetter, or vetter like fairing. :)
OT, but
I did here from a Zero marketing guy at the Scotts Valley Market near Zero that mid 2016 Zero will offer a better Commuter Wind Screen. That is all I heard. That is not a full fairing, but some people say that a small windscreen helps 10% range, but on this forum I dont think anyone has done proper before and after testing in a semi-controlled manner.
A small windscreen would make the bike more comfortable in the winter and rain and possibly it would a ride with less wind noise. Its a win, win. There are a lot of aftermarket universal windscreens, but the brackets look like a pain to install and they do not always look that good.
Its been brought up before, but I like what Terry is saying: A full fairing that is somewhere between his Vetter fairing and Hayabusa. I called it Vetter-Lite in another thread.
Terry, do you ride your Vetter Zero much anymore. I would love to try a Zero with just a Vetter fairing and still fairly light.
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It seems this thread has drifted from a charger into aerodynamics, but I'm very curious how much range/efficiency would improve with even a "normal" sportbike fairing like this:
(http://evtricity.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/20150130_063630_1200px-1024x576.jpg)
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I'm sorry, I thought everybody knew about Craig Vetter's accident. Best wishes to his recovery. I know it's not going as fast as everyone would hope.
Craig's large fairing still shows for sale, and he doesn't fab them himself. If you want one, contact Carol Vetter as per the links at his site. But if you expect Craig to help you install it, that is unlikely at this point.
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Its been a while since the last update, any new info on the timeline for the superchargers?
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Its been a while since the last update, any new info on the timeline for the superchargers?
Funny you mention that I sent EC and his business partner an email yesterday inquiring about being put on a notification or waiting list for round two :)
Haven't heard anything back though.
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Keep us posted Burton! I too would like to be on the list for round two.
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
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Looks like they're also working at another project at EWM: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emw/juiceplug-a-universal-smart-ev-charging-adapter/description (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/emw/juiceplug-a-universal-smart-ev-charging-adapter/description)
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I'm curious how this charger works in practice.
Let's say you plug into a really sub-optimal J1772 EVSE .. 208V feed, but actually ~190V due to a long undersized wire run. 30A supply, breaker limited to 24A and the EVSE advertises a 24A limit using the pilot signal (4.5 kW AC).
1. Will the SuperCharger respect the 24A limit and automatically scale down its current draw?
2. Can the current limit be programmed by the user, in the case of plugging into a 208V 30A NEMA socket?
3. How would either of the above work if the user is using the SuperCharger in addition to the 1.3 kW OBC?
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I'm curious how this charger works in practice.
Let's say you plug into a really sub-optimal J1772 EVSE .. 208V feed, but actually ~190V due to a long undersized wire run. 30A supply, breaker limited to 24A and the EVSE advertises a 24A limit using the pilot signal (4.5 kW AC).
1. Will the SuperCharger respect the 24A limit and automatically scale down its current draw?
2. Can the current limit be programmed by the user, in the case of plugging into a 208V 30A NEMA socket?
3. How would either of the above work if the user is using the SuperCharger in addition to the 1.3 kW OBC?
(1) is an interesting question I cannot claim any knowledge of, but the OEM charger it's based on seems smart enough to handle that. I know that the answer to (2) is yes, this is in the product premise, for the reason that not all plugs communicate their limits. (3) may or may not be accounted for in the firmware; it's certainly a good idea to have a toggle-ready setting for it.
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I emailed them and got no response about the status of these (I am order #6), has anyone received theirs yet?
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I recently received a response and they are making progress, but are being careful not to overpromise anything. Although it would be nice to get updates once in a while.
AllI can say is that I intend to take a long distance journey again this summer and fully expect to be using my DigiNow Supercharger (#4).
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It will be interesting to see how these turn out and if I should wait for one of these or I should get a Zero Charge Tank.
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Hey guys I just picked up a final final production revision of the supercharger, and Charger (my dog) and I rode to LA yesterday from Santa Cruz to test it and it was a blast. The next couple days I'm working with Brandon to finalize the Bluetooth app for the charger. It should only be a week or two now before the go ahead to ship is given. I can tell you this thing is freakin awesome!!! It took way longer than expected to change and refine so many little things that no one thought of at first, but although that took time (most people are glad that took place over the winter, right?) it's now ready.
For those who didn't preorder in time, you will have to be patient. The first round of orders from Nov I think will go out first as they will make sure everything is perfect and 100% compatible with every year and model of Zero, and get feedback before starting another round of production. But those who didn't pre order should still be able to get one in time for a summer road trip. Look for updates from Electric Cowboy within a week I hope.
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That is OUTSTANDING news, Terry! What kind of charging stations did you use, and how much hardware do you have to carry around to plug into various outlets? Have you seen any compatibility issues yet?
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Thanks for the update Terry! And thanks for putting in the hours to ensure it is a quality product. I don't want to be stuck in Fargo this summer. You've seen the tv shows, it's dangerous out there! [emoji6]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It has a product page now at eMotorWerks!
Mini-SmartCharge-12000 - a 12kW Universal Voltage EV Charger - Fully Assembled & Tested (http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/dc-charging-systems/1673-mini-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/category_pathway-17)
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It has a product page now at eMotorWerks!
For motorcycle applications, this charger allows long-distance travel for the first time! Note that for motorcycle applications, you will have to purchase through our exclusive distributor, DigiNow - please contact them here (https://www.facebook.com/digiNow-Inc-221483624638337/).
Can't wait till this is part of my build.
I wonder if I could get them to make it so I can unhook the J1772 via anderson connector and hook in my own project box with EVSE circuit so I can charge from 14-50 / 5-20 so I don't have to carry around huge multi-hundred dollar solutions to do what I can already do now :D
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It has a product page now at eMotorWerks!
Mini-SmartCharge-12000 - a 12kW Universal Voltage EV Charger - Fully Assembled & Tested (http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/dc-charging-systems/1673-mini-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/category_pathway-17)
70A DC output (plus the 10-12 that the stock charger can supply) is a little lower than I was expecting, but the 0-360V output should line up nicely to future motorcycles. At any rate, that's plenty to max out even a 40A J1772 EVSE. Disadvantage is that it can't be split between two 32A J1772 EVSEs, which is somewhat common.
The SmartCharge-12000 (http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/component/azurapagebuilder/page/17) the DigiNow charger is based on has an option for 100A DC output. I wonder if DigiNow is offering this on the SuperCharger. There was press coverage talking about 10, 12, or 15 kW output.
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It has a product page now at eMotorWerks!
Mini-SmartCharge-12000 - a 12kW Universal Voltage EV Charger - Fully Assembled & Tested (http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/dc-charging-systems/1673-mini-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/category_pathway-17)
70A DC output (plus the 10-12 that the stock charger can supply) is a little lower than I was expecting, but the 0-360V output should line up nicely to future motorcycles. At any rate, that's plenty to max out even a 40A J1772 EVSE. Disadvantage is that it can't be split between two 32A J1772 EVSEs, which is somewhat common.
Demand-side load splitting seems like it'd take more engineering. :/ On NEMA 14-50 outlets, at least a simple splitter can route to the onboard charger for some more amps.
The SmartCharge-12000 (http://www.emotorwerks.com/index.php/component/azurapagebuilder/page/17) the DigiNow charger is based on has an option for 100A DC output. I wonder if DigiNow is offering this on the SuperCharger. There was press coverage talking about 10, 12, or 15 kW output.
It could be that DigiNow is supporting a slightly different spec based on cooling/configuration or just tweaking a few bits.
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The DigiNow charger is slightly different than the charger on the EMW site. The diginow configuration will do more than 70 amps. It's all configured via the communication beagle bone wifi app from your smart phone.
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So just to clarify, the one on the EMW site is different to the one that's been talked about on this thread so far?
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So just to clarify, the one on the EMW site is different to the one that's been talked about on this thread so far?
One of the big obvious differences is how you program the device vs the Diginow device ;)
So yeah ... it is different.
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The DigiNow charger is slightly different than the charger on the EMW site. The diginow configuration will do more than 70 amps. It's all configured via the communication beagle bone wifi app from your smart phone.
Good to hear, although still slightly confusing.. since the EMW site directs people to order through DigiNow. Is DigiNow selling two different versions, one for EMW (70 amps, programmable over serial) and one for the Zero bikes (> 70 amps, programmable over bluetooth)?
There is a lot of conflicting / confusing information surrounding the charger, and I think a definitive set of answers from Brandon would help. Hopefully he can provide these when he updates.
Ex: in this autoblog article (http://www.autoblog.com/2015/10/13/diginow-super-charger-electric-motorcycles/), they mention 7.5 kW, 8 kW, 9 kW, 10 kW, 12 kW, 15 kW .. also mentioning peak power and continuous power, which I believe was mentioned earlier in this thread that the charger will derate based on thermals when installed in the tank location.
Maybe what would be useful would be taking several application scenarios and explaining how the charger would be used and what power levels would be expected.
1. Charging from standard 120V socket
2. Charging from NEMA 14-30, ~200V
3. Charging from NEMA 14-30, ~240V
4. Charging from NEMA 14-50, ~200V
5. Charging from NEMA 14-50, ~240V
6. Charging from J1772 EVSE - does the charger automatically respect the EVSE limits ie 16A, 32A, 40A?
7. Charging from J1772 EVSE + 120V socket in combination (using onboard charger)
The simplest mode of operation would be to set an input current limit through the app prior to plugging into a "dumb" socket, and to have the charger respect the input current limit communicated through the J1772 EVSE pilot signal (override with the app). Brandon is a smart guy, so hopefully this is how it was designed .. it'd just be nice to clarifiy.
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It's all configured via the communication beagle bone wifi app from your smart phone.
Wifi, not bluetooth? That's.....interesting. Does that mean the charger has an internet presence if it's close enough to a Wifi hub? It would be very cool if you could put the bike on the charger, go to get lunch or something, and monitor the charging process remotely.
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+1 on the Diginow being on the internet. I guess the it might be a pain to try and hook it up to every Wi-Fi network at different cafes. Some of them require a login via a browser, so I'm not sure how that would work.
I wonder, if you shared your internet connection on your phone, perhaps the app would work? You might just get enough range to sit within 100ft of the bike and keep an eye on the charging. Much more range than Bluetooth at least.
Any chance of the manual being published alongside a web page with all the features and specs? It could save a lot of pre-sales queries. It will also help prevent buyer's remorse. I'd encourage everyone to read the manual before they buy to make sure the Diginow fits their needs. Charging is rather more complex than the uninitiated might be lead to believe.
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LoRaWAN is the most future proof option.
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Hey guys, I put up some information on the website. It may help answer some of the questions from above.
We're busting our butts tweaking algorithms right now and running and re-running safety protocols and checks.
So glad to get awesome help from guys like Terry Hershner and Luke (LiveForPhysics) who is riding around on my 2015 Race SR up in Nor Cal hitting up all the charge stations he can find. He really can't get enough of fast charging now that he has had a taste of it.
On a side note, some of you may know his sparrow, which he upgraded with one of the Super Charger QA units, originally he was charging it @600 watts, no there is not a zero missing from there you read that right 600 watts! Well, after adding in the prototype, he drove it down here to LA... from Santa Cruz! On the way down he hit a few of the 70A Clipper creek J-Plugs at RaboBanks and was charging his 232v sparrow @ 16 KW! Woot!
Then a few days later, he rode my SR back up to NorCal, and had a blast doing it too!
Anyway check out the preliminary info I put up on the site for you guys with the link below.
http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php (http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php)
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I wonder if I could get them to make it so I can unhook the J1772 via anderson connector and hook in my own project box with EVSE circuit so I can charge from 14-50 / 5-20 so I don't have to carry around huge multi-hundred dollar solutions to do what I can already do now :D
That's how we built it ;) most average users will never see that once it is onboard, but you my friend, will have a field day!
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1. Charging from standard 120V socket
2. Charging from NEMA 14-30, ~200V
3. Charging from NEMA 14-30, ~240V
4. Charging from NEMA 14-50, ~200V
5. Charging from NEMA 14-50, ~240V
6. Charging from J1772 EVSE - does the charger automatically respect the EVSE limits ie 16A, 32A, 40A?
7. Charging from J1772 EVSE + 120V socket in combination (using onboard charger)
It's all based on power to make things simple. You just set the desired constant power and the charger will attempt to stay as close as possible to that power. This way lower voltages will put in more amps and higher voltages will put in lower amps to keep the power draw from the power source as even as it can.
The code will recalculate its amperage draw if the wattage fluctuates +/- 200 watts from the desired wattage.
The EVSE limits are respected, and we try to pull the maximum power at all times again dumping higher amperage into the battery at lower states of charge and lower amperage at higher states of charge.
An example would be a 32A 240v EVSE at Terry's sub 0% SOC ~93v we would be putting in 7680 watts 93v @ 82A. Then close to full at say 114v we would still be putting in 7680 watts 114v @ 67A. This is the way that seems to best utilize the available power.
Once the charger begins to hit 116v under load it will reduce the charge current by 100w every 200 ms until the voltage under load drops back down to below 116v if it does not drop by the time the desired wattage hits 0 then the charger will assume the charge is complete. Now if in a few min the surface charge wears off, and the voltage drops to 115.8 or so it will start again to trickle charge the battery to a full 116v so you will have a true 100% SOC.
Ideally though you would just utilize the fast part of the charge and move on at say 80-93% somewhere between 90 and 95% the power ramp down will begin depending on how fast you are charging. The faster you charge the more the voltage under load will raise so we have to slow down to make sure everything is honkey dorey :)
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An example would be a 32A 240v EVSE at Terry's sub 0% SOC ~93v we would be putting in 7680 watts 93v @ 82A. Then close to full at say 114v we would still be putting in 7680 watts 114v @ 67A.
How can a 32A EVSE provide 82A?
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An example would be a 32A 240v EVSE at Terry's sub 0% SOC ~93v we would be putting in 7680 watts 93v @ 82A. Then close to full at say 114v we would still be putting in 7680 watts 114v @ 67A.
How can a 32A EVSE provide 82A?
Thats into the battery. A 32A 240v EVSE can provide 7680 watts. If you put those watts through the charger it can put in around 82A @93v -> into the battery which is also 7680 watts.
Watts = Volts * Amps
There are very minimal losses so you might belooking more like 80A into the battery, 32A from the EVSE.
32A 240v -> charger -> 82A 93v
OR
32A 240v -> charger -> 67A 114v
All items are still using the same amount of power and the EVSE is still only putting out 32A
Hope that clears it up a bit :)
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Thank you for the update!
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Great update! Thanks EC!!
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In relation to the "Controller Kit" ... are you finding owners need to modify the variable in their controller to handle the higher rates or are the controllers bypassing the "regen" hard cap of 40A as set by the MBB when charging? (not sure if this exists on the MY14+ bikes or not but I know it is on the MY13 bikes)
Can't wait to get this thing on my bike :D
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***Tease***
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Thanks for the update!
I love the automatic adjustment to the charging rate of the charging station. Does that mean it will even work with Blink stations? I always get an overcurrent fault (or some such nonsense) at Blink stations.
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What's the latest ETA on general availability?
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What's the latest ETA on general availability?
If everything goes well over the next few days we will be delivering to Brian Rice after that. Terry is out and about testing the latest tweaks to the algorithm, so far the feedback I have gotten this morning could be summed up by this quote from him :
New charger algorithm working awesome!! Way to go Brando!!!! :)
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Typo on the site ;)
This is the most extreme case battery drain, only ever experienced by those who are considered both crazy and ledgendary.
Facing the possibility that my current Chademo setup and my DS might not be friends with each other after all I will opt for this. I do have a few questions:
- What is the extra cost for a mennekes inlet?
- Is it possible to get it installed in a topcase when shipped?
- You mention the charge limits on the site, I have access to 22-43kW Mennekes charging stations, would it be able to squeeze out more power on cold days?
But mostly I'm stoked that the development is getting nearer and nearer to completion, this is a real game changer! ;D
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Interesting and good to know that Luke is using this charger. That bodes well for Zero as an entity taking a positive view on these chargers.
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Typo on the site ;)This is the most extreme case battery drain, only ever experienced by those who are considered both crazy and ledgendary.
Facing the possibility that my current Chademo setup and my DS might not be friends with each other after all I will opt for this. I do have a few questions:
- What is the extra cost for a mennekes inlet?
- Is it possible to get it installed in a topcase when shipped?
- You mention the charge limits on the site, I have access to 22-43kW Mennekes charging stations, would it be able to squeeze out more power on cold days?
But mostly I'm stoked that the development is getting nearer and nearer to completion, this is a real game changer! ;D
Contact Mike with these questions so they don't get lost. I won't be able to answer right now.
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updated the charge limits.
2014-2016 have 100A fuse.
May update algorithm to increase charge rate based on battery state via anderson..
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Typo on the site ;)This is the most extreme case battery drain, only ever experienced by those who are considered both crazy and ledgendary.
Facing the possibility that my current Chademo setup and my DS might not be friends with each other after all I will opt for this. I do have a few questions:
- What is the extra cost for a mennekes inlet?
- Is it possible to get it installed in a topcase when shipped?
- You mention the charge limits on the site, I have access to 22-43kW Mennekes charging stations, would it be able to squeeze out more power on cold days?
But mostly I'm stoked that the development is getting nearer and nearer to completion, this is a real game changer! ;D
Contact Mike with these questions so they don't get lost. I won't be able to answer right now.
I'll shoot him an email.
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updated the charge limits.
2014-2016 have 100A fuse.
May update algorithm to increase charge rate based on battery state via anderson..
Appreciate the update, EC. Looking forward to some owner reports :)
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Great update! Quick question, what is the lowest charge rate you can set the charger to(if I understand correctly how it works)? For us off-griders who some times need to charge slow. On board(12A) is too high to charge via wind and micro hydro over night. Tesla can go as low as 5A.
I know... It's counter to what we all want, but would get me out of a pickle. :-P
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
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My question is how do you get around the problem of the on-board charger needing to be plugged in at the same time? From my minimal experience of level 2 charging points in the UK (i've looked at one), they only offer one Mennekes filler plug (?) and no UK three pin socket for the kettle lead.
In a similar vein, if there is only one three pin socket to charge from, is it possible to plug the super charger into the socket and make the most of the 3kW output that they can provide? I guess you'd need an output on the Diginow that supplies 240v to the on-board charger via a kettle lead. I've also wondered about this with the Elcons too.
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Typo on the site ;)This is the most extreme case battery drain, only ever experienced by those who are considered both crazy and ledgendary.
Facing the possibility that my current Chademo setup and my DS might not be friends with each other after all I will opt for this. I do have a few questions:
- What is the extra cost for a mennekes inlet?
- Is it possible to get it installed in a topcase when shipped?
- You mention the charge limits on the site, I have access to 22-43kW Mennekes charging stations, would it be able to squeeze out more power on cold days?
But mostly I'm stoked that the development is getting nearer and nearer to completion, this is a real game changer! ;D
Contact Mike with these questions so they don't get lost. I won't be able to answer right now.
Did you get my email a few days ago about the 3 phase version? Do you have any update?
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My question is how do you get around the problem of the on-board charger needing to be plugged in at the same time? From my minimal experience of level 2 charging points in the UK (i've looked at one), they only offer one Mennekes filler plug (?) and no UK three pin socket for the kettle lead.
In a similar vein, if there is only one three pin socket to charge from, is it possible to plug the super charger into the socket and make the most of the 3kW output that they can provide? I guess you'd need an output on the Diginow that supplies 240v to the on-board charger via a kettle lead. I've also wondered about this with the Elcons too.
You have pins 38/40 on your MBB There is a small connector left of the contactor on battery with connecting to your anderson sbs75x (doesn't apply for non-MY13 bikes) ... these go to your Anderson external charger connector. When you plug in an external connector it talks to the bike to let it know it wan'ts to charger.
In this way you do NOT need the stock charger to put the bike into charge mode. And with this charger, since Brandon is smart enough to realize all you need is a resistor to trigger this behavior, you do not need to have an onboard charger to use the external one.
That said if you really really wanted to keep your external charger there would not be nothing stopping you from making a Y splitter to feed both your super charger and your stock charger. Right now, since I don't have the 38/40 pins installed on my bike yet (though I have the parts), I do just this with my RSP2000 charging stack.
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Great update! Quick question, what is the lowest charge rate you can set the charger to(if I understand correctly how it works)? For us off-griders who some times need to charge slow. On board(12A) is too high to charge via wind and micro hydro over night. Tesla can go as low as 5A.
You can download the app and use it to set the hard limit on kWh for your charge rate. I wouldn't be surprised to see this charger is adjustable down to bellow 5A
Thumbs up on the micro hydro! :) So much better than PV's
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Thanks Burton, I appreciate your input on this. You've also cleared up a myth that people always need to utilise the on-board charger in tandem with all external charging solutions. Some may choose to remove the on-board charger to save weight. I'd be inclined to keep it on the bike as a backup.
If two UK sockets were available, as is often the case, the on-board would bring the total charge rate up to just over 4kW. That's a modest improvement over an on-board + Elcon.
Thanks for posting all the info so far Brandon. I hope Zero are able to start fitting your new charger as standard on 2017 models, or at least as an option as an improvement to their current Charge Tank. I think that would make a lot of sense. It would be a little like how they went for the Sevcon 660 to create the the SR after Harlan showed them the way. :)
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Great update! Quick question, what is the lowest charge rate you can set the charger to(if I understand correctly how it works)? For us off-griders who some times need to charge slow. On board(12A) is too high to charge via wind and micro hydro over night. Tesla can go as low as 5A.
I know... It's counter to what we all want, but would get me out of a pickle. :-P
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
We ramp the charger clear down to ~100 watts during our top off phase.
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Typo on the site ;)This is the most extreme case battery drain, only ever experienced by those who are considered both crazy and ledgendary.
Facing the possibility that my current Chademo setup and my DS might not be friends with each other after all I will opt for this. I do have a few questions:
- What is the extra cost for a mennekes inlet?
- Is it possible to get it installed in a topcase when shipped?
- You mention the charge limits on the site, I have access to 22-43kW Mennekes charging stations, would it be able to squeeze out more power on cold days?
But mostly I'm stoked that the development is getting nearer and nearer to completion, this is a real game changer! ;D
Contact Mike with these questions so they don't get lost. I won't be able to answer right now.
Did you get my email a few days ago about the 3 phase version? Do you have any update?
Lecram, I am not able to give an update on that at the moment, we are going through final testing for release now. Over the past few days we have been catching little things here and there thanks to our awesome testers and pioneers riding their butts off and just trying to make trouble. They are doing a good job making sure we get the best product out.
We should have some news on that just after.
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Running some more high power tests tomorrow. Check, double check then check again when dealing with double digit kW!
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Great update! Quick question, what is the lowest charge rate you can set the charger to(if I understand correctly how it works)? For us off-griders who some times need to charge slow. On board(12A) is too high to charge via wind and micro hydro over night. Tesla can go as low as 5A.
I know... It's counter to what we all want, but would get me out of a pickle. :-P
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
We ramp the charger clear down to ~100 watts during our top off phase.
But what is the lowest you can set the charge rate to during the main charge cycle? I think I can get away with a 5-8A sustained charge @ 120v though thinking 240v might be easier on the inverter. Just curious not a deal breaker but would make it easier to charge the bike via alternative sources.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
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Via the phone app, you can set the desired wattage to anything you want. There is a box where you type it in.
I'll attach a screenshot of revision 7 of the supercharger app. However another revision is already being worked on that might be finished before the release of the charger so it might look different when you get it.
The white box that says 0. you type in the desired watts and press enter. Very handy when plugging into a circuit that has something else sharing outlets and the load. When on a 20 amp 110 outlet at home, you can set it to charge 50% faster than the onboard charger too. Very cool feature!
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Thanks Terry for the clarification!
That's outstanding! So umm... EC where do I "reserve" one? Seeing as you won't likely get numbers like Tesla, I would venture to guess every zero owner is going to want one!
EC you're pretty much a drug dealer at this point! Lol! And we are the addicts. I am for sure! One ride a day at least (when I can charge), add a supercharger... Might never come home again!
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Where do I find the dimensions? I'm getting very interested in this myself.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Typo on the site ;)This is the most extreme case battery drain, only ever experienced by those who are considered both crazy and ledgendary.
Facing the possibility that my current Chademo setup and my DS might not be friends with each other after all I will opt for this. I do have a few questions:
- What is the extra cost for a mennekes inlet?
- Is it possible to get it installed in a topcase when shipped?
- You mention the charge limits on the site, I have access to 22-43kW Mennekes charging stations, would it be able to squeeze out more power on cold days?
But mostly I'm stoked that the development is getting nearer and nearer to completion, this is a real game changer! ;D
Contact Mike with these questions so they don't get lost. I won't be able to answer right now.
Did you get my email a few days ago about the 3 phase version? Do you have any update?
Lecram, I am not able to give an update on that at the moment, we are going through final testing for release now. Over the past few days we have been catching little things here and there thanks to our awesome testers and pioneers riding their butts off and just trying to make trouble. They are doing a good job making sure we get the best product out.
We should have some news on that just after.
I got it.
I would be happy to voluntary test the 3 phase version here in Europe.
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I went to http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php (http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php)
And among lots of good information I see two columns without a direct explanation.
"If Accessory Port Kit" "If Controller Kit"
Can I get filled in on what I presume is "generally understood"?
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So I may understand that the charger could work with the 3 phases output we can get here in Europe?
I would be happy to test it in France as well!
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The accessory port has a charge fuse and limits power to safely where a 30 J1772 can deliver. A controller kit will allow charging from 70A J1772 ports, NEMA 14-50's at home or at RV parks, or to one day perhaps get the dual J1772 input - Wye adapter for 12,000 watts into the charger.
Don't ask questions about that yet as it is still being developed and a lot of work to do. If it was easy, someone with a Tesla with a 20 kW onboard charger would have done it already, but I think I know how it can work with one active pilot signal, one cheater plug and a full wave bridge rectifier on each leg so it's only paralleled once it's DC input to the charger.
However right now, Brandon's testers like LiveForPhysics and I have our hands full so can't even think about that yet. Like I said before, everything that seems simple always takes a lot longer than you expect, and I know everyone is anxious to get this charger, so we are just working on the reliability of the system and fixing small bugs and going out and testing more all over again till we feel it's 100%.
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Great update! Quick question, what is the lowest charge rate you can set the charger to(if I understand correctly how it works)? For us off-griders who some times need to charge slow. On board(12A) is too high to charge via wind and micro hydro over night. Tesla can go as low as 5A.
I know... It's counter to what we all want, but would get me out of a pickle. :-P
Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk
We ramp the charger clear down to ~100 watts during our top off phase.
But what is the lowest you can set the charge rate to during the main charge cycle? I think I can get away with a 5-8A sustained charge @ 120v though thinking 240v might be easier on the inverter. Just curious not a deal breaker but would make it easier to charge the bike via alternative sources.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
You could have it charge your bike at 100 watts the whole way. 300 watts might work best for that slow charge.
So you take 300watts / line voltage = amps
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Hey guys, I was in a bit of a wreck yesterday and bumped my head pretty good. Lots of blood and all that fun stuff. Testing on JPlugs seems to have passed completely, however testing on the NEMA 1450 needs some more still. That will have to be delayed a few days until I get better.
Also, I will be fine soon. If you guys remember, I broke my spine in 2014 and was back on the track in a few weeks. This is nowhere near that bad.
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Hey guys, I was in a bit of a wreck yesterday and bumped my head pretty good. Lots of blood and all that fun stuff. Testing on JPlugs seems to have passed completely, however testing on the NEMA 1450 needs some more still. That will have to be delayed a few days until I get better.
Also, I will be fine soon. If you guys remember, I broke my spine in 2014 and was back on the track in a few weeks. This is nowhere near that bad.
!!! Glad you're okay; try not to push yourself too hard. You guys seem to be working very intensely but be careful with your body and mind.
I've certainly had some scares in this El Niño weather.
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The accessory port has a charge fuse and limits power to safely where a 30 J1772 can deliver. A controller kit will allow charging from 70A J1772 ports, NEMA 14-50's at home or at RV parks, or to one day perhaps get the dual J1772 input - Wye adapter for 12,000 watts into the charger.
I would have guessed "accessory port charging" will plug in above the rear wheel on the Zero even though my manual calls it "Auxiliary Power Pack Charging Connection" and I'm pretty certain my 2013S (still pre-12.5 update) has one but the chart says "N/A" so I'm stumped.
I'm going to leave un-presumed what a controller kit does as my conjecture is more unfoundable.
I'm not trying to ask questions which have yet to be answered... someone chose the language used to make those headings so they must mean something.
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The accessory port has a charge fuse and limits power to safely where a 30 J1772 can deliver. A controller kit will allow charging from 70A J1772 ports, NEMA 14-50's at home or at RV parks, or to one day perhaps get the dual J1772 input - Wye adapter for 12,000 watts into the charger.
I would have guessed "accessory port charging" will plug in above the rear wheel on the Zero even though my manual calls it "Auxiliary Power Pack Charging Connection" and I'm pretty certain my 2013S (still pre-12.5 update) has one but the chart says "N/A" so I'm stumped.
I'm going to leave un-presumed what a controller kit does as my conjecture is more unfoundable.
I'm not trying to ask questions which have yet to be answered... someone chose the language used to make those headings so they must mean something.
So the 2013 accessory port only has a 30A fuse without the free 2015 battery upgrade. So if you don't get the battery upgrade, which you should do right away, we say N/A because it doesn't make sense to use the old 2013 port, o ly the controller.
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The accessory port has a charge fuse and limits power to safely where a 30 J1772 can deliver. A controller kit will allow charging from 70A J1772 ports, NEMA 14-50's at home or at RV parks, or to one day perhaps get the dual J1772 input - Wye adapter for 12,000 watts into the charger.
I would have guessed "accessory port charging" will plug in above the rear wheel on the Zero even though my manual calls it "Auxiliary Power Pack Charging Connection" and I'm pretty certain my 2013S (still pre-12.5 update) has one but the chart says "N/A" so I'm stumped.
I'm going to leave un-presumed what a controller kit does as my conjecture is more unfoundable.
I'm not trying to ask questions which have yet to be answered... someone chose the language used to make those headings so they must mean something.
So the 2013 accessory port only has a 30A fuse without the free 2015 battery upgrade. So if you don't get the battery upgrade, which you should do right away, we say N/A because it doesn't make sense to use the old 2013 port, o ly the controller.
OK so we've established that "accessory port charging" is plugging into "Auxiliary Power Pack Charging Connection" once it has a 100 AMP fuse. Good - that was my guess.
Leaving just what does the other column's "controller kit" method entail ???
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Basically, everyone wants to charge at 12kW. We all know how to connect to the aux port. How do we connect through using the "controller kit?"
Will it require a dealership to know how to make the connections or can anyone hook it up easily?
For example, I'm counting on 10kW at RV parks for my summer ride this year, but the terminology "controller kit" makes me a bit nervous about installation. If you can clear that up easily, it would help.
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I think "controller kit" is just referring to lugs meant to install on B+ and B- input leads to the motor controller, designed to charge through that interface. Lugs like that would be permanent installed, with a downstream disconnect (guessing Anderson).
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Hey guys, I was in a bit of a wreck yesterday and bumped my head pretty good. Lots of blood and all that fun stuff. Testing on JPlugs seems to have passed completely, however testing on the NEMA 1450 needs some more still. That will have to be delayed a few days until I get better.
Also, I will be fine soon. If you guys remember, I broke my spine in 2014 and was back on the track in a few weeks. This is nowhere near that bad.
Ai that sucks, I hope that you have a swift recovery.
And that the prototype is undamaged ;)
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Ben to use more than 8 kW continuous you will need to use the controller kit. Although the charge fuse is 100 amps we have had it blow on 2 bikes under 9000 watts. So in the right conditions, the charge fuse didn't like even just 90 amps. And because of that each bike was out of commission for a week replacing the wiring harness.
So don't charge with more than a single 30 amp J1772 using the accessory port above the motor. We have had about 20 things happen we didn't expect that have caused big delays in releasing this and this was just one of them. But it's good EC has been asking us to perform this testing as Ben I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy charging at 10 kW at an RV park somewhere along your trip and then blowing your charge fuse and having to have your bike towed and in the shop for a week while a new wiring harness arrives. So please everyone remain patient as you have been. We are trying to find everything that can go wrong, and while we hope unexpected things aren't discovered, I'm glad we find them and fix it. It just takes time.
Since the 14-50 testing isn't finished yet, right now the first few people that wish to soon receive the chargers will only be set up for J1772 charging, until the 14-50 adapter is sent separately and more fully tested.
To have the controller kit installed, it will need to go to a dealer or have someone familiar with high voltage electronics do the install and the main high amp battery contacts on the controller will be tapped, and charging will proceed backwards through those leads. An auxiliary 250 Amp fuse is included and will need to be installed in the tail section.
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Ben to use more than 8 kW continuous you will need to use the controller kit. Although the charge fuse is 100 amps we have had it blow on 2 bikes under 9000 watts. So in the right conditions, the charge fuse didn't like even just 90 amps. And because of that each bike was out of commission for a week replacing the wiring harness.
So don't charge with more than a single 30 amp J1772 using the accessory port above the motor. We have had about 20 things happen we didn't expect that have caused big delays in releasing this and this was just one of them. But it's good EC has been asking us to perform this testing as Ben I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy charging at 10 kW at an RV park somewhere along your trip and then blowing your charge fuse and having to have your bike towed and in the shop for a week while a new wiring harness arrives. So please everyone remain patient as you have been. We are trying to find everything that can go wrong, and while we hope unexpected things aren't discovered, I'm glad we find them and fix it. It just takes time.
Since the 14-50 testing isn't finished yet, right now the first few people that wish to soon receive the chargers will only be set up for J1772 charging, until the 14-50 adapter is sent separately and more fully tested.
To have the controller kit installed, it will need to go to a dealer or have someone familiar with high voltage electronics do the install and the main high amp battery contacts on the controller will be tapped, and charging will proceed backwards through those leads. An auxiliary 250 Amp fuse is included and will need to be installed in the tail section.
bit of a tangent but... Why would you have to replace the harness if its just the charge fuse? Why can you not replace the fuse? is it a fusable link? Is the fuse undersized and you have actual wires melting?
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The fuse was never intended to blow and is built into the wiring harness in a non accessible place and sealed with a thick hardened heat shrink rubber requiring basically cutting it out of the harness. It is easier just to replace the harness. And that is the procedure Zero call for as well. if you call and ask for a charge fuse, they can't sell you one. You get a new harness. So basically if you would like to charge over 7200 watts, don't risk the charge fuse. Use the controller kit.
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That is really good insight into the process; now I see why the controller kit is being mentioned centrally instead of as an alternate option for older models with lower fused charging inputs, and why further testing is necessary. Good luck!
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Neat to hear that it is getting closer and closer to sending the first batch out.
Ben to use more than 8 kW continuous you will need to use the controller kit. Although the charge fuse is 100 amps we have had it blow on 2 bikes under 9000 watts. So in the right conditions, the charge fuse didn't like even just 90 amps. And because of that each bike was out of commission for a week replacing the wiring harness.
So don't charge with more than a single 30 amp J1772 using the accessory port above the motor. We have had about 20 things happen we didn't expect that have caused big delays in releasing this and this was just one of them. But it's good EC has been asking us to perform this testing as Ben I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy charging at 10 kW at an RV park somewhere along your trip and then blowing your charge fuse and having to have your bike towed and in the shop for a week while a new wiring harness arrives. So please everyone remain patient as you have been. We are trying to find everything that can go wrong, and while we hope unexpected things aren't discovered, I'm glad we find them and fix it. It just takes time.
Hmm how can they blow under a load that is way lower than they're made for? Ah anyway that's not something for you to find out.
But a fuse of 250A? What is the max power of this beast? :o
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Neat to hear that it is getting closer and closer to sending the first batch out.
Hmm how can they blow under a load that is way lower than they're made for? Ah anyway that's not something for you to find out.
But a fuse of 250A? What is the max power of this beast? :o
That's probably a fast limit for the fuse, ensuring that power transients don't destroy the fuse while also supporting a working load that stays in spec. I'm going to speculate vaguely from prior engineering familiarity that there are power transients because of interactions between solid state power systems.
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Hmm how can they blow under a load that is way lower than they're made for? Ah anyway that's not something for you to find out.
But a fuse of 250A? What is the max power of this beast? :o
If I was to take a bet.... I bet its a 100a fast blow fuse. so shorting about 100A across it would make it blow almost instantly. A fuse blows because the heat is so intense it vaporizes.
This means that if you were to take NEAR 100A, say 92 or so(8% although at this powerlevel that might be higher) , and hold it... it would get warm. if you keep holding it at that power, it gets hotter and hotter. If its as sealed as terry just said, the heat has nowhere to go... and at some point, pop, it melts.
That said, if it was me, I would source a replacement fuse and offer a repair service. Has to be cheaper than a new harness.
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If I was to take a bet.... I bet its a 100a fast blow fuse. so shorting about 100A across it would make it blow almost instantly. A fuse blows because the heat is so intense it vaporizes.
That said, if it was me, I would source a replacement fuse and offer a repair service. Has to be cheaper than a new harness.
Correct, even the onboard Calex can blow the fuse if it were to be plugged in on the DC side is on. The inrush current to the capacitors has also blown the charge fuse when hooking up an external calex to the accessory port.
The stock onboard charger on the bike charges the caps via a precharge resistor to equalize voltage on both sides before the contactor closes. Also you can plug it in to AC power first and then plug in the DC side.
Basically just confirming this is a fast blow fuse and you are correct as to why heat buildup was perhaps the reason it blew with less than its rated max.
And there is another way. If you take one Anderson out of the main battery, one out of the accessory port, and one out of the onboard charger Anderson, and the positive battery lead to the controller, you can replace just this section and the charge fuse is included. This is what I did a couple weeks ago on my bike, but not sure if this would be considered standard procedure.
Basically we just don't want anyone to have this happen to them. For J plug use, the accessory port is fine, for a 14-50 or anything higher, you can't charge this way without almost certainly having a failure. So best not to try.
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Thanks Terry.
Hope you get well soon, Brandon!
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Hey guys, I was in a bit of a wreck yesterday and bumped my head pretty good. Lots of blood and all that fun stuff. Testing on JPlugs seems to have passed completely, however testing on the NEMA 1450 needs some more still. That will have to be delayed a few days until I get better.
Also, I will be fine soon. If you guys remember, I broke my spine in 2014 and was back on the track in a few weeks. This is nowhere near that bad.
Yikes :-\ Wishing you a swift recovery .. head wounds are a little scary (and concussions can have significant lingering effects (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/03/160328114638.htm)), but even a minor wound bleeds like crazy. Hopefully it looks worse than it is :)
Ben to use more than 8 kW continuous you will need to use the controller kit. Although the charge fuse is 100 amps we have had it blow on 2 bikes under 9000 watts. So in the right conditions, the charge fuse didn't like even just 90 amps. And because of that each bike was out of commission for a week replacing the wiring harness.
So don't charge with more than a single 30 amp J1772 using the accessory port above the motor. We have had about 20 things happen we didn't expect that have caused big delays in releasing this and this was just one of them. But it's good EC has been asking us to perform this testing as Ben I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy charging at 10 kW at an RV park somewhere along your trip and then blowing your charge fuse and having to have your bike towed and in the shop for a week while a new wiring harness arrives. So please everyone remain patient as you have been. We are trying to find everything that can go wrong, and while we hope unexpected things aren't discovered, I'm glad we find them and fix it. It just takes time.
Since the 14-50 testing isn't finished yet, right now the first few people that wish to soon receive the chargers will only be set up for J1772 charging, until the 14-50 adapter is sent separately and more fully tested.
To have the controller kit installed, it will need to go to a dealer or have someone familiar with high voltage electronics do the install and the main high amp battery contacts on the controller will be tapped, and charging will proceed backwards through those leads. An auxiliary 250 Amp fuse is included and will need to be installed in the tail section.
Greatly appreciate the details. Glad you guys are spending the time to bulletproof this.
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This is not the normal setup we will be sending out to everyone, just a cool photo of what Terry is doing on his way up testing some 1C charge rates on his 5 brick.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13006579_946454912116980_8675507887397074717_n.jpg?oh=acdb997481cff4ea858af4c3d8d2080d&oe=577E3354)
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Just ordered a 2016 SR from Hollywood Electrics since we need something to test on after my accident. Sweet news!
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Sweet news indeed! That charge rate is awesome. :)
I'm sure this is all in the pipeline, but I'd love to see some details on the accessories; auxiliary and controller kits, how different cables plug in and so on. A guide on different installation methods would be great too.
This is just a thought, but as documentation is likely to be a very time consuming task, is it worth reaching out to the community for some assistance? If you were able to provide a few photos and some video commentary, I'm sure one or even a few of us (myself included), would be happy to have a stab at a guide of some sort. If you like the results it could be distributed, if not, then it's an interesting exercise that shouldn't create much work for you guys so not too much time invested or wasted. Just an idea, it might not be a good one, so I'll take no offence if you don't like it.
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Sweet news indeed! That charge rate is awesome. :)
I'm sure this is all in the pipeline, but I'd love to see some details on the accessories; auxiliary and controller kits, how different cables plug in and so on. A guide on different installation methods would be great too.
This is just a thought, but as documentation is likely to be a very time consuming task, is it worth reaching out to the community for some assistance? If you were able to provide a few photos and some video commentary, I'm sure one or even a few of us (myself included), would be happy to have a stab at a guide of some sort. If you like the results it could be distributed, if not, then it's an interesting exercise that shouldn't create much work for you guys so not too much time invested or wasted. Just an idea, it might not be a good one, so I'll take no offence if you don't like it.
Man you have no idea how awesome that would be. Documentation is the hardest part. I will share a doc or repo on github you guys can help with if you are interested/willing.
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Sure, it's worth a try EC. I think I'd find it rewarding to contribute in some way.
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+1
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I need a little more time for this concussion to go away and I will be back at it. Thanks for the Great Idea Bonkers.
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You're most welcome EC, I'm glad you like the idea and I hope it helps out.
Thanks for bringing us a great new product that will mean that many people can enjoy riding their Zeros all the time instead of having to revert back to an ICE bike for longer trips. What you've achieved is truly awesome. Exciting times!
Do try and take it easy for a while though EC. I know the timing is bad for you but your health has to be your top priority.
Great to see a +1 from Patrick too. I'll start a new topic for this in the next day or two to help manage this project and we can see where it goes from there.
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I for one am definitely willing to contribute to documentation. There's probably enough technical writing skill around here to make it pretty straightforward with a little coordination.
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Another quick update.
Luke and Terry are right now working on testing multiple production ready chargers under various conditions to ensure the voltage calibrations are good and to see if there are any variances in calibration that need to be taken into account based on how the charger is hooked up.
Very exciting times.
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Fantastic! I can't wait!! Thanks for keeping us in the loop. This thread is the primary reason why I check this forum right now. ;)
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I'm trying to learn more about this unit and prepare for a purchase. Is there a link to this thing? I've looked at the website but, I'm confused as to what is a similar unit. I would like to get the exact dimensions so I can start looking for a top case. How does this connect to the bike? Are you guys planning on permanently mounting to bike? Will I need to modify (professionally?) my bike? Will this allow any faster charging on a regular 110 plug? Please forgive my ignorance as electrical stuff is not my forte.
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I'm trying to learn more about this unit and prepare for a purchase. Is there a link to this thing? I've looked at the website but, I'm confused as to what is a similar unit. I would like to get the exact dimensions so I can start looking for a top case. How does this connect to the bike? Are you guys planning on permanently mounting to bike? Will I need to modify (professionally?) my bike? Will this allow any faster charging on a regular 110 plug? Please forgive my ignorance as electrical stuff is not my forte.
I'll give a shot at answering:
Here is their site: http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php (http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php)
I don't have the dimensions but it will fit in a modest top box.
You can connect it via the aux port, controller and the power tank connection if you don't have one.
I know I will. You do not need to modify the bike if you use the aux port but that does also mean that you cannot use full powah.
Yes, how much faster depends on the fuse behind that plug.
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I'm trying to learn more about this unit and prepare for a purchase. Is there a link to this thing? I've looked at the website but, I'm confused as to what is a similar unit. I would like to get the exact dimensions so I can start looking for a top case. How does this connect to the bike? Are you guys planning on permanently mounting to bike? Will I need to modify (professionally?) my bike? Will this allow any faster charging on a regular 110 plug? Please forgive my ignorance as electrical stuff is not my forte.
I'll give a shot at answering:
Here is their site: http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php (http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php)
I don't have the dimensions but it will fit in a modest top box.
You can connect it via the aux port, controller and the power tank connection if you don't have one.
I know I will. You do not need to modify the bike if you use the aux port but that does also mean that you cannot use full powah.
Yes, how much faster depends on the fuse behind that plug.
Thanks Erasmo,
I have looked at that link a lot. I have a power tank so I think I'll be able to connect via the aux port and plug into a 50A and plug the controller in for the fastest charge?
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I have looked at that link a lot. I have a power tank so I think I'll be able to connect via the aux port and plug into a 50A and plug the controller in for the fastest charge?
You should be OK with the aux port, but if you are putting it in the tailcase, you may want to use the controller connection instead. Both work great.
Here is a photo of me testing in Santa Barbara today via the aux port. I am using the onboard and a jplug from a charge point station. They are on average slower than many others, but the time to 100% seems reasonable. I generally only charge to 80% or 90% anyway.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUnUzPMV2L/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUnUzPMV2L/)
On phone otherwise would have put the image inline.
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AWESOME O___O
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I have looked at that link a lot. I have a power tank so I think I'll be able to connect via the aux port and plug into a 50A and plug the controller in for the fastest charge?
You should be OK with the aux port, but if you are putting it in the tailcase, you may want to use the controller connection instead. Both work great.
Here is a photo of me testing in Santa Barbara today via the aux port. I am using the onboard and a jplug from a charge point station. They are on average slower than many others, but the time to 100% seems reasonable. I generally only charge to 80% or 90% anyway.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUnUzPMV2L/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUnUzPMV2L/)
On phone otherwise would have put the image inline.
I think I'm confused on terminology and function. Are you saying that I'll be able to plug directly into the plug on the side of the bike (in the frame) and charge faster than using the Aux port (next to motor). I thought the connection on the side limited how fast you can charge whereas the aux port (connected directly to battery?) does not? Like I said, this is all foreign to me.
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I have looked at that link a lot. I have a power tank so I think I'll be able to connect via the aux port and plug into a 50A and plug the controller in for the fastest charge?
You should be OK with the aux port, but if you are putting it in the tailcase, you may want to use the controller connection instead. Both work great.
Here is a photo of me testing in Santa Barbara today via the aux port. I am using the onboard and a jplug from a charge point station. They are on average slower than many others, but the time to 100% seems reasonable. I generally only charge to 80% or 90% anyway.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUnUzPMV2L/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/BEUnUzPMV2L/)
On phone otherwise would have put the image inline.
I think I'm confused on terminology and function. Are you saying that I'll be able to plug directly into the plug on the side of the bike (in the frame) and charge faster than using the Aux port (next to motor). I thought the connection on the side limited how fast you can charge whereas the aux port (connected directly to battery?) does not? Like I said, this is all foreign to me.
He's referring to a new connection that the supercharger install kit will provide, and connects to the battery side terminals of the controller under the seat.
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Hey guys, I was in a bit of a wreck yesterday and bumped my head pretty good. Lots of blood and all that fun stuff. ...
Oh, man. Get well soon.
Ben to use more than 8 kW continuous you will need to use the controller kit. Although the charge fuse is 100 amps we have had it blow on 2 bikes under 9000 watts. So in the right conditions, the charge fuse didn't like even just 90 amps. And because of that each bike was out of commission for a week replacing the wiring harness.
So don't charge with more than a single 30 amp J1772 using the accessory port above the motor. We have had about 20 things happen we didn't expect that have caused big delays in releasing this and this was just one of them. But it's good EC has been asking us to perform this testing as Ben I'm sure you wouldn't be too happy charging at 10 kW at an RV park somewhere along your trip and then blowing your charge fuse and having to have your bike towed and in the shop for a week while a new wiring harness arrives. So please everyone remain patient as you have been. We are trying to find everything that can go wrong, and while we hope unexpected things aren't discovered, I'm glad we find them and fix it. It just takes time.
Since the 14-50 testing isn't finished yet, right now the first few people that wish to soon receive the chargers will only be set up for J1772 charging, until the 14-50 adapter is sent separately and more fully tested.
I'm cool with that. A 30 amp J1772 will certainly get my weekly long ride switched from car to e-motorycle, and I'll hold off on any Terry Hershner style marathon cross country trips until later.
Greatly appreciate the details. ...
Amen to that. Might be good to send out an email to anyone who's already ordered, point them to this thread.
So the Controller option will come with the supercharger I already ordered, but doesn't have to be installed to use the 7.4Kwh option? Sounds fine.
My first trip will be to Corbin, I think. This thin factory seat is getting old. I postponed my trip to them a few times already.
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Hey guys!
Just a quick update, we have isolated a component that needs to be upgraded to handle a fluttering contactor on a damaged, super old station, or a station with low line voltage when multiple cars plug into the same drop (old shared line stations). This is also the same part we were working on with the NEMA 14-50 tests before.
So we have upgraded several chargers with the new parts and are now re-testing to ensure stable performance and voltage sensing.
We are getting really close! Terry, myself, and like Liveforphysics physics all agree... We don't know how we ever rode a zero without a super charger. It's like once you have had one, riding without one just seems silly.
Just a little more testing and we should have a really solid product for you. We have now tested over 30 types of charger and many generations of those types as well. We have each found some crazy unique chargers that none of had ever seen before. It was like a treasure hunt competing to see who could find and charge at the most obscure chargers. Great fun, and good data!
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Thanks for the update! Assuming you don't have any unpleasant surprises, are you expecting to start shipping in a few days, weeks, or months? Summer is back here in Vancouver and I'm itching to go on multi-charge rides.
Cheers!
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Just a quick update, we have isolated a component that needs to be upgraded to handle a fluttering contactor on a damaged, super old station, or a station with low line voltage when multiple cars plug into the same drop (old shared line stations). This is also the same part we were working on with the NEMA 14-50 tests before.
so curious people want to know... what is this mystery part?
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Thanks for the update! Glad to hear it will be a robust product!
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I'm a new '16 sr owner and this is the most exciting prospect. I'm definitely interested in getting one of these when they become available.
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Electric Cowboy,
Is the supercharger going to be something that you can easily hook up and remove as needed or is pretty much something you permanently mount on your bike? Thanks, Vinny
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Electric Cowboy,
Is the supercharger going to be something that you can easily hook up and remove as needed or is pretty much something you permanently mount on your bike? Thanks, Vinny
Depends on de the setup. If you use the aux port and a top case you can remove it quickly but keep in mind that the charging power is limited if you charge through the aux port and not the controller.
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Electric Cowboy,
Is the supercharger going to be something that you can easily hook up and remove as needed or is pretty much something you permanently mount on your bike? Thanks, Vinny
Depends on de the setup. If you use the aux port and a top case you can remove it quickly but keep in mind that the charging power is limited if you charge through the aux port and not the controller.
This is something that I'm trying to understand also. Does connecting to the controller require modification to the bike/wiring?
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This is something that I'm trying to understand also. Does connecting to the controller require modification to the bike/wiring?
If you want to attach to the controller you could "hard wire" it in place or make a harness which would allow you to disconnect it from the charger. So no modification to the bike wiring would be required but you might need to migrate the "external charging" indicator pins to the new adapter so the bike knows to go into charging mode.
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When do you think these will go on sale to the masses? I'm ready to throw all my money at one ;D
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Waiting on how they handle three phases I also have saved up for a deposit.
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Would this work on a Brammo Empulse?
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So, any new updates? I don't want to be pushy but I'm dying of curiosity.
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FYI - Looking at the dimensions on the emotowerks page the dimensions appear to be 12in. x 7in. x 8in. Weight: 25lb.
http://emotorwerks.com/index.php/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/1657-mini-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/related_product-127 (http://emotorwerks.com/index.php/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/1657-mini-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/related_product-127)
I'm also looking forward to news since I leave for a monthlong motorcycle trip on my SR in mid-june and will need every bit of charging power I can get!
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Hey Ben saw your remove the plastics video where you took off your elcons. Now I see this post is there any way you could use both the elcons and the Digi? I assume not but damn that would be some fast charging. Lightning bolt into the Flux Capacitor for sure.
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Hey Ben saw your remove the plastics video where you took off your elcons. Now I see this post is there any way you could use both the elcons and the Digi? I assume not but damn that would be some fast charging. Lightning bolt into the Flux Capacitor for sure.
12+5+1.3 = 18.3kW of pure charging power! That would be amazing! Terry has gone that high, but I don't plan to go above 1C since that is the manufacturer's recommended rate.
I'll post soon about my trip this summer, but suffice it to say it will be a long one. My travel days will be longer than last summer when averaging 312 miles (500km) per day. So my travel time will depend greatly on how effective the charger is.
Best case scenario: Supercharger works as promised and I only need to charge for 40-50 minutes on average (I don't usually ride until empty because charging stations aren't perfectly placed).
Middling scenario 1: Supercharger arrives, but can only deliver 6-7kW of charging. If this is the case, I'll bring an Elcon with me (2 would be too bulky & heavy), so I can charge at about 8-9kW while at dual J1772 plugs. This will be slower at RV Parks, but slightly faster at double J1772 plugs (1 for the supercharger and 1 for the Elcon/onboard charger).
Middling scenario 2: If the bike can't take more than 6.6kW, then I won't be able to charge much faster than last summer, but any increase will be helpful.
Worst case scenario: If everything falls through or the supercharger doesn't arrive in time, then I'll just take the trip using Elcons and will have to ride longer each day and arrive later at night or arrive the next day. This is not a bad scenario, but it would be frustrating since I planned the trip assuming I would have a functioning supercharger by the time riding season began.
Electric Terry or Electric Cowboy, any insight into which of these scenarios I can expect this summer would be greatly appreciated!
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The later in June you leave Ben the higher chance you have of getting the supercharger in time for the trip. In the testing Luke, Brandon and I did, we had 2 discoveries. One of the fixes is in place, that is a capacitor across the IGBT driver chip to prevent voltage spikes from damaging the chip in unexpected high current disconnects, i.e. a 50 amp breaker blows while charging at peak current, or someone unplugs the 14-50 plug itself instead of the J-Plug adapter. Another scenario I just discovered is if there is a ground fault the stations cut current abruptly and it can cause the chip to no longer function.
Luke has had an updated unit with the capacitor fix for a couple weeks. I am going up today to exchange my test unit for one with the capacitor fix.
However in a week or so, both Luke and I need to return to EMW to get a special zener diode added to the voltage regulator as an extra measure of safety. The parts for this have been ordered and just haven't arrived at Electric Motor Werks yet.
After that we will retest all the scenarios that all 3 of us discovered that would cause a malfunction to see if it can be duplicated. If not, they should be good to go! So it's looking like at least 2 more weeks, but perhaps not much longer after that. You guys have no idea how many hours of testing has gone into this. Probably 50 times more than I expected back in October when I was asked to help. But luckily its almost there.
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After that we will retest all the scenarios that all 3 of us discovered that would cause a malfunction to see if it can be duplicated. If not, they should be good to go! So it's looking like at least 2 more weeks, but perhaps not much longer after that.
;D
Of course we don't mind a thoroughly tested product but the updates are always so interesting to read. Just something like ''We had a grounding problem and need to add a Zener somewhere'' every now and then makes the wait so much more bearable.
And on behalf of the E-bike owners in Europe, do you know if there's more to share on eventual 3 phase AC? If you decide to not follow through with it that's okay but please just let us know if that's the case.
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The later in June you leave Ben the higher chance you have of getting the supercharger in time for the trip. In the testing Luke, Brandon and I did, we had 2 discoveries...
Thanks for the update, that helps a lot. And especially thanks for all the time you have been spending testing it! That is a huge amount of time, and it is really a testament to your dedication to moving electric motorcycles into the future!
The date I leave is set at Thursday, June 16th. It will do me absolutely no good to receive it on that day or later because I'll already be on my way until August. In fact, I need it ahead of that date to secure it and make sure everything is installed correctly on my bike.
Glad to hear you are making progress, but this is making me nervous.
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It will do me absolutely no good to receive it on that day or later because I'll already be on my way until August.
Ben speaks for himself there. The rest of us will take ours the very day they're available. No holding off until August because Ben said it was okay!
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It will do me absolutely no good to receive it on that day or later because I'll already be on my way until August.
Ben speaks for himself there. The rest of us will take ours the very day they're available. No holding off until August because Ben said it was okay!
Ben didn't say that was okay. I think you may have misinterpreted my post.
As you read in my response, it will be worthless to me if it arrives in August. I will probably get my money back if it arrives later than June 10th.
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Sorry Ben, no insult or affront intended...it was supposed to be mildly humorous but also add my voice to the crowd that's getting antsy.
We want our superchargers!
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We want our superchargers!
No doubt! After I ordered mine I immediately started to think about summer 2016 road trips but held off on making any plans...even after Ben started a spin off post to start the planning. This is why. http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5130.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5130.0)
I feel like I am walking a tight rope...on the one hand I don't want a rushed product that ends up failing or doing damage to my bike (at the most inopportune time of course) so I'm trying to be patient and I have MOSTLY avoided the daily urge to send an email asking about the status.
On the other hand....WTF is my charger!
We are getting really close! Terry, myself, and like Liveforphysics physics all agree... We don't know how we ever rode a zero without a super charger. It's like once you have had one, riding without one just seems silly.
Just a little more testing and we should have a really solid product for you. We have now tested over 30 types of charger and many generations of those types as well. We have each found some crazy unique chargers that none of had ever seen before. It was like a treasure hunt competing to see who could find and charge at the most obscure chargers. Great fun, and good data!
Posts like this are simultaneously encouraging (they are working hard to put out a good product) and infuriating (Thanks for rubbing it in and telling me how much fun I could be having with my super charger >:( )
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Thanks for the update Terry. I don't have a huge trip like Ben planned, but I do have a few weekend trips booked that I'll have to cancel if I don't get my super charger on time.
I also agree that if we have to wait, then regular updates really REALLY help. It's hard to be left in the dark not knowing the progress you guys are making as well as the problems you're fixing. And plus, you guys are doing really good and hard work and should be proud to publicize it. If one of you could commit to an update every two or three days, that would go a long way.
Thanks!!
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So going by another thread it looks like the Power Tank of a Zero is connected with a big anderson plug and the supercharger of course taps in to that if you don't have a Power Tank.
Now this might be a brainfart because I didn't look deeply in the charging ''flow'' with a Power Tank on the bike and I'm not sure if there's enough space beneath the stock plastic but would it be possible to create a kind of Y-adapter on that plug so you don't have to charge through the controller?
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Good news!!! I just received word that Brandon and Terry have been working for 2 days straight testing the superchargers and they will likely be shipped later this week!!!
Here is the Facebook post from today where they celebrate their testing marathon.
https://www.facebook.com/RIAEvangelist/posts/10206484507292406
Glad they are both safe and I certainly appreciate the monumental effort that went into getting the superchargers ready for use.
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@Erasermo
We now have a way to use the full power of three phase. So there is a single phase version and a three phase version. But, you will need a three phase mennekes to j1772 adapter.
We do have the single phase mennekes to j1772 adapter we can ship as well.
@Ben glad we can get it to you in time.
@MrWilson shoot me an email with your phone number and details on your trip.
@Those who are waiting to order. We will begin accepting orders again after we start shipping, hopefully through dealers.
Holy crap this was a lot of work... I can't imagine building a whole motorcycle if this is just a charger... I mean it is the best charger, but still man it's a lot of work!
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I'm so glad that you're ready to ship ;D Seriously this is a game changer in the emotor world.
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/walkingdead/images/3/3f/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg)
But seriously, where can I post a deposit for a three phase super charger.
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Good news!!! I just received word that Brandon and Terry have been working for 2 days straight testing the superchargers and they will likely be shipped later this week!!! ... Glad they are both safe and I certainly appreciate the monumental effort that went into getting the superchargers ready for use.
Outstanding! Congratulations, Brandon and Terry!
What this means to me personally:
- I'll be able to do my 200 mile days at highway speed instead of limiting myself to 40-45 MPH
- I'll have more time to work on streamlining and CNC and making a raspberry pi play audio according to speed
- The trip to the electric motorcycle gathering in Ohio in July becomes practical.
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Anxiously yet patiently waiting for an email contact. (Drumming fingers on desktop)
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Congratulations. :) I too am hoping to have a nice relaxing summer trip with mine.
Current status: "Startup work and no play makes Homer something something"
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I just spent a day getting a unit fitted and doing testing; these are on the verge of shipping now. A great deal was explained to me that will help with documentation but also reveals some of the complications involved in making this thing a deliverable product.
I can say that my 2016 DSR reached a 1C charge rate during field testing using 2 J1772 stations through the DigiNow Supercharger and my single Elcon 2500 chain, so that's a milestone that should help trip planning.
EDIT: The 1C rate was achieved by using the controller install path in parallel to the OEM external charge port.
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So I'm a little confused ... once the testing is done how does one actually buy one? There has been conflicting information in this thread.
disclaimer 1: i love the testing and passion behind the product and want to support it but you are not making it easy
disclaimer 2: honestly - zeros charge tank fits my requirements (and looks better) but i've been holding off on the purchase
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When testing is done they're going to ship out the first units that were ordered last November. Then they will begin taking orders for the next round which will be delivered much faster because they have worked out the bugs over the winter. The testing phase took significantly longer than planned but they will be delivering an incredible product.
Ordering Will probably be ton on either the DigiNow page or the EMotowerks page.
If you can afford it without too much trouble this is a higher power product compared to the zero charger and will allow you to charge for times faster. You may not think you want it now but once you start using it you will not know how you lived without it!
Subscribe to Benswing on YouTube to follow my summer journeys.
Like Ben Rich - Electric Biker on Facebook.
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Ben has the right information. They're being careful not to over promise, and honestly forums are very hard to communicate a clear message through. There will be a product page and documentation.
I'm being careful with what I say because I hear a mixture of internal discussion and real commitments and I don't want to confuse things.
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Will the schematic be available like the earlier EMotowerks chargers?
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Hi,
I am new on this Forum and just bought a Zero S model 2015. Doing a full charge in 1 hour would be great with a supercharger. I did not buy the Chargetank as I hope to be able to buy something faster. In the Netherlands, most public chargers offer 3 phase (3 x 240 V x 16 A = 11 kW). It would be great if a three phase version is available for the DigiNow charger.
My question is following. How can it use the full power of three phase when a single-phase vehicle coupler is used ? I read in a message from @ElectricCowboy that a three phase mennekes to j1772 adapter is needed. But I don't see how it can fully use the 3 phases if on the motorcycle side there is a J1772 socket ?
Thanks for some clarification.
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Hi,
I am new on this Forum and just bought a Zero S model 2015. Doing a full charge in 1 hour would be great with a supercharger. I did not buy the Chargetank as I hope to be able to buy something faster. In the Netherlands, most public chargers offer 3 phase (3 x 240 V x 16 A = 11 kW). It would be great if a three phase version is available for the DigiNow charger.
My question is following. How can it use the full power of three phase when a single-phase vehicle coupler is used ? I read in a message from @ElectricCowboy that a three phase mennekes to j1772 adapter is needed. But I don't see how it can fully use the 3 phases if on the motorcycle side there is a J1772 socket ?
Thanks for some clarification.
There are several cables on the market to convert from mennekes to j1772.
The pilot signal is the same between them, so thats no big deal. I dont know how the cable handles the 3 phases though. I assume it only uses 2 of them, but I never researched it.
I dont know what the full plans are for diginow, but I would imagine that they could swap the normal single phase rectifier bridge for a 3 phase bridge and use that... EMotowerks will do that for their other chargers, so assuming there is room, I dont see why they wouldnt do it for you.
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Will the schematic be available like the earlier EMotowerks chargers?
I did not know they supported that. I'll raise the issue, but I think they'll be just as responsive about this product as their existing products.
The DigiNow customizations are all mainly about systems integration and you will have to contact them about those aspects. I would expect that a certain amount of configuration can be requested, at least.
FYI I've finished the initial core documentation for installing and using it, and it's undergoing a review process with the relevant people.
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Will the schematic be available like the earlier EMotowerks chargers?
I did not know they supported that. I'll raise the issue, but I think they'll be just as responsive about this product as their existing products.
The DigiNow customizations are all mainly about systems integration and you will have to contact them about those aspects. I would expect that a certain amount of configuration can be requested, at least.
FYI I've finished the initial core documentation for installing and using it, and it's undergoing a review process with the relevant people.
Yeah, EMotowerks is a pretty cool story. I only know the jist of it from when I jumped into the EV game, but it started with one guy on a forum posting about building an open source charger.. all the info for every aspect is/was online... then with a design they moved on to kits. and from the charger you need an EVSE so they made that.... and now he has a business of making EVSE kits, charger kits, etc.. and that of course moved on to assembled products. You can google back and see how they grew.
Some people like to mock their earlier stuff for being inefficient and unsophisticated, but I view it as an inspiration. They went from a very basic charger to a full featured PFC charger. They learned alot, and in 2013 he completely redid it. Constantly learning, and revising.
I dont know anything about the deal between them and Diginow.. I can see online that "if used for electric motorcycles, buy through diginow", so I only assume they have a sales agreement... I assume its all based on their 12kw charger.. just with better packaging for a smaller product.
but thats alot of assumptions.
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Mr Dude, you are correct on all aspects.
One thing to keep in mind, our connectors are modular. So while we support J1772 by default, we can ship a 3 phase charger for you to hook up as well. We don't have the connector right now, but all you would need to do is crimp the ends and plug it in.
Or you can use the 2 of the 3 phases with the JPlug.
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Mr Dude, you are correct on all aspects.
yay! I should use that as my signature. lol
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Anyway now the first wave is getting shipped, how easy/difficult is the controller kit to install, and how heavy is the SC actually?
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Anyway now the first wave is getting shipped, how easy/difficult is the controller kit to install, and how heavy is the SC actually?
Super easy for anyone who has worked with the bikes before, mildly scary but still easy for those who have not. People who do not know why you should be careful with metal around a control should go to a dealer. People who know why, leave the bike off for 10 min and the caps will be discharged and no voltage across the terminals anymore.
Even for a novice the install should not take more than 30-40 min if you know how to use an allen wrench, socket and screw driver. Otherwise, go to a dealer. :)
Knowledge of how to use a volt meter is ideal.
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Thanks for the swift response ;)
I know my way around electronics so that should be do-able. Might take longer and do a neat perma install in a topbox.
Can you maybe share a photo of the situation at the controller after installation if you have one laying around?
Anyway time to send a mail to two certain dealers ;)
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So I've bitten the bullet and joined the que for a 3 phase unit, we'll see when it arrives.
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What's the latest on the price?
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What's the latest on the price?
$3k USD plus options. After a snag with the paperwork I'm hopeful the one I ordered will ship soon. See: http://www.grandcanyoncycles.com/--diginow-supercharger (http://www.grandcanyoncycles.com/--diginow-supercharger)
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we can ship a 3 phase charger for you to hook up as well.
Here at my location we have a 3-phase Y system power supply with grounded neutral. It provides 230 Volts each phase against neutral/ground and 400 Volts between each phase.
Can the charger operate at that power level? As the charger seems to have no galvanic isolation will the Zero handle that voltage against ground? Are the isolations of charger and Zero sufficient? Does the charger provide PFC at 3 phase operation?
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What I don’t understand is why Zero doesn’t make a more powerful build-in charger for the European market.
The standard charger is 1,3kw, which means at 220v about 6 ampere. European outlets can go easy to 10 or even 16 ampere, which would mean 50% less time to charge. For me that would be a better deal than a charge tank or other quick charge solutions.
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What I don’t understand is why Zero doesn’t make a more powerful build-in charger for the European market.
The standard charger is 1,3kw, which means at 220v about 6 ampere. European outlets can go easy to 10 or even 16 ampere, which would mean 50% less time to charge. For me that would be a better deal than a charge tank or other quick charge solutions.
Cost. They would have to spend more on the on-board charger to have it support two charge rates.
Zero have effectively managed to accomplish that with the charge tank. If you plug your kettle lead into a 220-240V outlet, it will charge using the charge tank at about 2.2kW and bypass the on-board. That's less than the 2.5kW it's capable of. I seem to recall it has something to do with legislation and sustained current draws. In a similar vein, my Kia Soul EV comes with a brick which is rated at 2.2kW. I've not seen it draw more than 2kW.
I think the charge tank should become standard equipment, or at least a much cheaper option. However, just as the Diginow charger is expensive, the charge tank isn't cheap either. There's some fundamental truth in that. They have to cover costs at least and make a small margin. If there was much scope to reduce the price and still make a small margin, I'm sure they would. That way they'd make more profit overall and the chargers would benefit a lot more bikers.
The biggest problem is that it's all done with small volumes. How many charge tanks will Zero sell in a year? How many orders do Diginow have for their super charger?
I hope that helps.
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This should allow a smaller, and maybe cheaper charger:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161006-wolfspeed.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161006-wolfspeed.html)
Wolfspeed delivers industry’s first 1000V SiC MOSFET for efficient EV fast chargers
I wonder how much kW could fit in the extra space under the seat.
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This should allow a smaller, and maybe cheaper charger:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161006-wolfspeed.html (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161006-wolfspeed.html)
Wolfspeed delivers industry’s first 1000V SiC MOSFET for efficient EV fast chargers
I wonder how much kW could fit in the extra space under the seat.
That is research and development. Please make another thread in the news board: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?board=9.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?board=9.0)
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So, is there any news on this front? I guess that the original backers all have their charger at this point?
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So, is there any news on this front? I guess that the original backers all have their charger at this point?
I think so! I'm on the list for the next round. Pretty sure Brandon is busting his ass. I am in San Francisco myself. From Vancouver, Canada, been slow charging the whole way until the onboard charge kicked the bucket. Was hoping to pop in to Hollywood electrics and get my supercharger(ie. A real charger).
Soon(TM):)
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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I wish DigiNow would speak up for themselves.
They've been making revisions to the control system based on early customer experiences. I think they're solving problems well, it just takes time for a tiny company to fully vet changes and get them out.
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I wish DigiNow would speak up for themselves.
I just finished my weekly call-in to Grand Canyon Cycles to ask for an update.
There is no update.
I did a long distance trip on my Zero and had a great time but every charge station I want to know why it's with a borrowed Elcon and not the digiNow Supercharger I have already paid for months before.
This business transaction must come to a conclusion before 2017, and I too would like some kind of information just what kind of delays are happening.
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Has anyone received one recently?
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Has anyone received one recently?
Grand Canyon Cycles was sent a dealer / demo fulfillment unit some time ago, and there's one person in the queue ahead of me ordering through them.
Brandon wrote this week to share that a family emergency came up recently, he's okay himself though not available for the moment. No delivery updates yet.
I'm trying to hash out what the US tax code actually says about the 30%-up-to-$1000 incentive on alternative fueling station. Is it by purchase date as the "internets" are saying, or by date put into service as US law and IRS forms from 2015 would indicate?
...cue for intrepid tax professionals to speak up...
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Reposting here just so it does not get lost.
Just to fill you in a bit more. EMW (electric motorwerks) has been avoiding our contact attempts for over a month now. They have a lot of our money and seem to have no intent to respond to us in any way.
I have heard from other people in the industry that this may be common place for them. And that some people are leaving the company because of this and similar behavior by the owners.
I really had high hopes for working with them, however it seems they were just out to take a lot of my companies money and pretty much all of my savings. I have put everything I had into this, and now that it has been their turn to deliver they have pulled several dirty tricks.
I have covered for EMWs mistakes a lot over the past year because I wanted to believe they could handle manufacturing the super charger for us, and because I thought they were good people. It really hurts my feelings that they would take advantage of me this way when all I want is to advance our industry.
I am a very trusting and honest person, and I will always give people more than one chance, some times too many more chances. It seems I protected EMW for too long taking the heat as digiNow to prevent them from getting a bad name. However it looks like that is exactly what they were counting on.
This was my first experience manufacturing a product at scale and it looks like I made a very bad choice choosing EMW, but I have learned a lot and will never ever be taken advantage of this way again. The world looks a lot less sunshiney knowing there are businesses out there like EMW that seek to take advantage of young entrepreneurs like me and my partners.
If anyone here has recommendations for the appropriate measures to take or can offer assistance I would appreciate your messages. Currently we are discussing going to the federal trade commission, and considering counsel for what I have been told will likely end up in a legal battle. Very depressing :(
The other side of this is that we do have a very small number of Super Charger V1 units left, @erik, im setting yours up tomorrow.
Super charger V2 details and specs along with full testing data will be released within 7 days. After that we will have detailed info on the dates for product arrival and will have a policy of full transparency. So far the V2 and manufacturer seem to be reliable and quality driven as well as able to supply our orders, which EMW was not able to do. Depending on the build a customer wants we currently should have enough to deliver 10 V2 chargers. With another 20 on the way, dates will be openly published and I will not be covering for anyone this time.
My apologies that I have not been more transparent about the issues we were having with EMW, I did not want to speak poorly of them and felt that it was my fault for choosing them. The combination of these lead me to not be as open with all of you as I could have. I promise not to let anything like that happen again.
-EC
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If anyone here has recommendations for the appropriate measures to take or can offer assistance I would appreciate your messages. Currently we are discussing going to the federal trade commission, and considering counsel for what I have been told will likely end up in a legal battle.
EMW seems to be based in California, so perhaps you could try arbitration under California Arbitration Act.
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Keep at it, Brandon. Your product is a bona fide game-changer, with an extremely eager, highly motivated audience already waiting for it. Startup throes are never fun...Elon Musk once said he'd rather eat ground glass than to go through the startup phase one more time.
Do stay in touch, though! We're all on your side, and we can put up with most anything and sympathize with you to boot, if you'll just keep us up to speed with what's going on. Delays and setbacks are one thing, feeling abandoned is entirely another.
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EC,
Sorry the rose colored glasses have dropped. In my experience they come back, not in a predictable way. It's never when you think. Keep forward and someday it'll feel right again.
I've heard electronic manufacturing can be a nightmare, both in house and through third party. I do belive the digi-now charger is a significant shift in AC charging if not all forms of mobile charging. As such, once it's live on the market you should gain a staggering amount of attention and interest. As if you didn't have enough of those right now. The only reason I've found to protect a business partner is if you need their aid, I'm happy to hear you've to a new plan.
Lastly the coolest part of electric vehicles is the community that builds, modifies, and engineers (or kludges) keep using us as a resource if we can help at all.
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Reposting here just so it does not get lost.
Just to fill you in a bit more. EMW (electric motorwerks) has been avoiding our contact attempts for over a month now. They have a lot of our money and seem to have no intent to respond to us in any way.
I have heard from other people in the industry that this may be common place for them. And that some people are leaving the company because of this and similar behavior by the owners.
I really had high hopes for working with them, however it seems they were just out to take a lot of my companies money and pretty much all of my savings. I have put everything I had into this, and now that it has been their turn to deliver they have pulled several dirty tricks.
I have covered for EMWs mistakes a lot over the past year because I wanted to believe they could handle manufacturing the super charger for us, and because I thought they were good people. It really hurts my feelings that they would take advantage of me this way when all I want is to advance our industry.
I am a very trusting and honest person, and I will always give people more than one chance, some times too many more chances. It seems I protected EMW for too long taking the heat as digiNow to prevent them from getting a bad name. However it looks like that is exactly what they were counting on.
This was my first experience manufacturing a product at scale and it looks like I made a very bad choice choosing EMW, but I have learned a lot and will never ever be taken advantage of this way again. The world looks a lot less sunshiney knowing there are businesses out there like EMW that seek to take advantage of young entrepreneurs like me and my partners.
If anyone here has recommendations for the appropriate measures to take or can offer assistance I would appreciate your messages. Currently we are discussing going to the federal trade commission, and considering counsel for what I have been told will likely end up in a legal battle. Very depressing :(
The other side of this is that we do have a very small number of Super Charger V1 units left, @erik, im setting yours up tomorrow.
Super charger V2 details and specs along with full testing data will be released within 7 days. After that we will have detailed info on the dates for product arrival and will have a policy of full transparency. So far the V2 and manufacturer seem to be reliable and quality driven as well as able to supply our orders, which EMW was not able to do. Depending on the build a customer wants we currently should have enough to deliver 10 V2 chargers. With another 20 on the way, dates will be openly published and I will not be covering for anyone this time.
My apologies that I have not been more transparent about the issues we were having with EMW, I did not want to speak poorly of them and felt that it was my fault for choosing them. The combination of these lead me to not be as open with all of you as I could have. I promise not to let anything like that happen again.
-EC
I've been following this thread for quite sometime in hopes of purchasing one of these units. I'm a GM dealer and I love Volts, Zeros and I am eagerly awaiting the new Bolt. Electrics are the future. I'm also involved in a startup company in another industry and I have found out just how ugly and unscrupulous people can be. It's a shame there are so many dishonest people in the world but, it's a fact of life. Electric Motorwerks will never see a dime of my money for as long as I'm on this earth. I can promise you that. I'm sorry this has happened to you. Now having said all that I hope that you are being completely honest here too. If I were you I would hire the meanest, nastiest attorney that specializes in this area to represent you. Now. Yesterday. EMW is probably going to try and contact you now that you've made this public and make all kinds of promises to delay your actions but, don't even answer their calls. They've already told you what you need to know. You know it in your gut too. They're are hoping you won't put up a fight. Lastly, I hope to god you have your patents in place otherwise I can guarantee you they're going to try and steal your I.P. Good luck.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Brandon,
Very sorry to hear about this.
I've been following the DigiNow charger for a while now. While I'm not yet a potential customer (don't yet have a Zero), I consider this kind of thing to be a key enabler for electric bike adoption, and am very happy that you're working on this -- esp. as Zero seemed to have dropped the ball on the matter in recent years.
City range on current Zeros (and other street electric bikes) is fine for commuting, but that misses the point:
If all one does is (sub)urban commuting/errands, a motorcycle is total overkill (unless you live in twisties-land ;D); an electric scooter (even e-bicycle for <10mi distances) would be quite enough.
Until I can do a day's worth of sport-touring (100mi at freeway speeds each way to get to the nice roads, plus another 150-200mi of slower twisties/sweepers), an e-motorcycle isn't on the table for me, as much as I'd like the idea.
Since neither expected battery improvements or normal fairings will get us a 400mi-range bike, convenient quick charging is the only solution.
Anyway, back to the issue at hand:
As much as I and probably others would find it interesting, I suggest you not post any details whatsoever on your interactions with EMW on the forum -- you don't want to provide them any ammo if it gets to legal proceedings or settlement negotiations. If there are people specifically affected (had orders in etc.), contact them via e-mail.
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City range on current Zeros (and other street electric bikes) is fine for commuting, but that misses the point:
If all one does is (sub)urban commuting/errands, a motorcycle is total overkill (unless you live in twisties-land ;D); an electric scooter (even e-bicycle for <10mi distances) would be quite enough.
Diverting from the topic of this thread for a moment:
As a former e-bicycle commuter, I feel much safer on my Zero. I can use power to stay out of the way of cars and I'm not trapped against the curb. Every time I've been knocked to the ground while riding a bicycle, It's been by a car making a right turn. It didn't matter how loud my horn was, how bright my lights were, how many flags I had on my trailer, nor how many times the car and I had passed each other over the previous three miles. Frankly, I wonder if it'd be better for bicyclists if cars didn't have a right mirror. Bad drivers don't use it for looking; instead they stick it in my ribs.
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City range on current Zeros (and other street electric bikes) is fine for commuting, but that misses the point:
If all one does is (sub)urban commuting/errands, a motorcycle is total overkill (unless you live in twisties-land ;D); an electric scooter (even e-bicycle for <10mi distances) would be quite enough.
Diverting from the topic of this thread for a moment:
As a former e-bicycle commuter, I feel much safer on my Zero. I can use power to stay out of the way of cars and I'm not trapped against the curb. Every time I've been knocked to the ground while riding a bicycle, It's been by a car making a right turn. It didn't matter how loud my horn was, how bright my lights were, how many flags I had on my trailer, nor how many times the car and I had passed each other over the previous three miles. Frankly, I wonder if it'd be better for bicyclists if cars didn't have a right mirror. Bad drivers don't use it for looking; instead they stick it in my ribs.
Fully agree.
I didn't mention it since e-bicycles weren't the subject... I'm a big promoter and advocate of bicycles, electric and pedal, but not at the expense of safety.
I do most of my 8mi-radius traveling, in crowded city, on a bicycle (pedal one, since terrain is flat), but we have decent bike paths, and riding on the sidewalk usually works where there aren't paths. However, I would not do this if I had to share the road with cars.
That said, >50% of Americans have a <10mi (one-way) commute, see here (http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/). Frequently, one car of the common 2-car households is used for commuting only, by one person, whereas the other car is larger and is used for chauffeuring kids & weekend trips. The short-commute car could in many cases be replaced by a bicycle.
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City range on current Zeros (and other street electric bikes) is fine for commuting, but that misses the point:
If all one does is (sub)urban commuting/errands, a motorcycle is total overkill (unless you live in twisties-land ;D); an electric scooter (even e-bicycle for <10mi distances) would be quite enough.
Diverting from the topic of this thread for a moment:
As a former e-bicycle commuter, I feel much safer on my Zero. I can use power to stay out of the way of cars and I'm not trapped against the curb. Every time I've been knocked to the ground while riding a bicycle, It's been by a car making a right turn. It didn't matter how loud my horn was, how bright my lights were, how many flags I had on my trailer, nor how many times the car and I had passed each other over the previous three miles. Frankly, I wonder if it'd be better for bicyclists if cars didn't have a right mirror. Bad drivers don't use it for looking; instead they stick it in my ribs.
Fully agree.
I didn't mention it since e-bicycles weren't the subject... I'm a big promoter and advocate of bicycles, electric and pedal, but not at the expense of safety.
I do most of my 8mi-radius traveling, in crowded city, on a bicycle (pedal one, since terrain is flat), but we have decent bike paths, and riding on the sidewalk usually works where there aren't paths. However, I would not do this if I had to share the road with cars.
That said, >50% of Americans have a <10mi (one-way) commute, see here (http://www.statisticbrain.com/commute-statistics/). Frequently, one car of the common 2-car households is used for commuting only, by one person, whereas the other car is larger and is used for chauffeuring kids & weekend trips. The short-commute car could in many cases be replaced by a bicycle.
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I have a 10 mile round trip commute, and for the last year or so I've commuted about 50% by pedal bike, 50% by motorcycle. Commute takes about 20 minutes on a conventional bike, 15 minutes on a pedal-assist electric bike, 12 minutes on motorcycle. Motorcycle can be slightly faster with little traffic.
On back roads, I view the safety as similar. On the main drag or at night, I vastly prefer to be on a motorcycle even though we have bike lanes. People just don't pay attention.
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Hi Brandon,
Thank you so much for the update. I was starting to worry that you had dropped the project. I'm sorry to hear of all the $h!# that's going on, but I'm happy that you're still at it. Keep it up and keep us in the loop, we're all with you!
My charger is a game changer. I haven't been able to use it as much as I would have wanted to now that winter is here, but the few longer rides that I've been on have been amazing.
Best of luck!
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Thank you guys for all of the support! It really helps me feel better and charge on. We are machining some custom parts here locally in Thousand Oaks for the v2 and trying to build strong relations with other local or afar but very reliable companies.
Everything is on track for specs, photos, install and other related information to be released next week sometime. We should have some attainable dates and product quantities that will be available to share as well. No hype over promises hidden responsibilities. We will give detailed information which I look forward to hearing your feedback on.