ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
General Category => Pics and Vids => Topic started by: Electric Cowboy on October 16, 2015, 01:19:09 PM
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Here is a photo of a Pre-Production testing model.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12118907_10205104351029362_1938010128816903699_n.jpg?oh=9cdd9c86cf4e192bf43ac6345f711b77&oe=56CD5E8C)
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Nice work! Any chance you can post full specs / tech details here so that you're not assaulted with the same questions from all of us via email?
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Agreed, I think a public string for questions makes a lot of sense. I'll start with a couple I have.
In some of the press that's come out, you mention that better airflow in free air means if you install the charger in a top box, you can charge faster (I read 10kW vs 8kW for "tank" mounting). But if I somehow contrive to create better airflow in the tank area (I'm thinking in terms of installing a hefty 12VDC blower), can I crank up the performance to equal the free air performance? Related, it sounds like the unit has internal thermal protection to keep itself from overheating, is that true?
Also I'm curious about the "app" that Patrick and I both noticed mentioned on our invoices. Is that going to be a Bluetooth app? Will it have other functions than just setting a power level?
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If this is going the the be the question thread I can roll with that, I planned on sending an email but this way the information can be spread faster.
I'm considering to buy a Zero to replace the ICE for my commute but with 194km on the motorway and 50km on backroads I have to charge halfway at a Fastned (http://fastned.nl/en/) station. Since they provide 50kW DC Chademo/CSS and 43kW AC Mennekes supplying the input shouldn't be a problem.
However it is unclear to me if the Super Charger also accepts DC power and if so what output you can achieve, both in the tank and in a topbox, could somebody please shine some light on that?
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If this is going the the be the question thread I can roll with that, I planned on sending an email but this way the information can be spread faster.
I'm considering to buy a Zero to replace the ICE for my commute but with 194km on the motorway and 50km on backroads I have to charge halfway at a Fastned (http://fastned.nl/en/) station. Since they provide 50kW DC Chademo/CSS and 43kW AC Mennekes supplying the input shouldn't be a problem.
However it is unclear to me if the Super Charger also accepts DC power and if so what output you can achieve, both in the tank and in a topbox, could somebody please shine some light on that?
The mennekes is a combo plug and includes the DC terminals.
I was unable to charge my Brammo there. So you need to have the right adapter and communication for it to work. I assume that this could be a bit tricky.
There are no sockets only plugs at the Fastned stations.
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If this is going the the be the question thread I can roll with that, I planned on sending an email but this way the information can be spread faster.
I'm considering to buy a Zero to replace the ICE for my commute but with 194km on the motorway and 50km on backroads I have to charge halfway at a Fastned (http://fastned.nl/en/) station. Since they provide 50kW DC Chademo/CSS and 43kW AC Mennekes supplying the input shouldn't be a problem.
However it is unclear to me if the Super Charger also accepts DC power and if so what output you can achieve, both in the tank and in a topbox, could somebody please shine some light on that?
The mennekes is a combo plug and includes the DC terminals.
I was unable to charge my Brammo there. So you need to have the right adapter and communication for it to work. I assume that this could be a bit tricky.
There are no sockets only plugs at the Fastned stations.
The older stations have sockets, iirc there are five of them. And they only supply 22kW, what is this, 2014? :o ;D
I'm guessing you mix up the CCS with the high power AC mennekes for cars that carry their own hefty charger like the Renault Zoe.
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The mennekes is a combo plug and includes the DC terminals.
kingcharles, I believe Erasmo was asking whether the new Diginow charger can use DC as an input source, and I believe the answer will be 'yes', but not immediately. IIRC, one of the press releases said that they were going to provide J1772 and 14-50 input here in the states, Mennekes AC in Europe, with CCS and CHAdeMO to follow soon. The charger itself has an AD/DC input stage, and is pretty flexible on voltage as well, which they did on purpose so they can use as many sources as possible.
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I'm guessing you mix up the CCS with the high power AC mennekes for cars that carry their own hefty charger like the Renault Zoe.
Sorry to be pedantic but the Zoe doesn't carry a hefty charger. It uses the inverter to charge at up to 60KW 3 phase. If every EV used such an elegant solution we wouldn't need big expensive DC chargers everywhere.
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Great info in here, I'm glad so many people are getting a good understanding of the charger. What Doug said is correct.
Also, to do 193km you would probably need a power tank, and then the Super Charger in the top case. You would want the extra battery to safely travel that range I think.
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I'm guessing you mix up the CCS with the high power AC mennekes for cars that carry their own hefty charger like the Renault Zoe.
Sorry to be pedantic but the Zoe doesn't carry a hefty charger. It uses the inverter to charge at up to 60KW 3 phase. If every EV used such an elegant solution we wouldn't need big expensive DC chargers everywhere.
I meant that but worded it wrong. The problem with it is that you can't charge faster than your controller can deliver and that cooling can become a problem without driving airflow.
Great info in here, I'm glad so many people are getting a good understanding of the charger. What Doug said is correct.
Also, to do 193km you would probably need a power tank, and then the Super Charger in the top case. You would want the extra battery to safely travel that range I think.
When given both choices, what would yield the best results qua output, DC or AC input?
I will definitively opt for the power tank, but I first have to wait until the 2015's go into clearance sale before I can even think about affording one. An 2015 S with power tank goes at the moment for €18848 and there are no rebates in the Netherlands.
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It uses the inverter to charge at up to 60KW 3 phase. If every EV used such an elegant solution we wouldn't need big expensive DC chargers everywhere.
I know that Energica is doing that, but doesn't it require an AC induction motor to act as a transformer? I could be mistaken but I don't think it's possible with our permanent magnet-type motors.
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I will definitively opt for the power tank, but I first have to wait until the 2015's go into clearance sale before I can even think about affording one. An 2015 S with power tank goes at the moment for €18848 and there are no rebates in the Netherlands.
There are benefits, no road and luxury taxes (MRB and BPM). And for self-employed people are great benefits like "Kleinschaligheidsinvesteringsaftrek (KIA)" and "Milieu Investeringsaftrek (MIA)", even for used bikes if these are younger than 6 months or have less than 6k kms. Do you want to buy the Zero as a private person or as a self employed?
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I'm guessing you mix up the CCS with the high power AC mennekes for cars that carry their own hefty charger like the Renault Zoe.
Sorry to be pedantic but the Zoe doesn't carry a hefty charger. It uses the inverter to charge at up to 60KW 3 phase. If every EV used such an elegant solution we wouldn't need big expensive DC chargers everywhere.
This is the Zoe charger:
(http://c-zero.info/cz/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Renault-ZOE-Cameleon-Chameleon-Charger-AC-3kW-43-kW-Three-Phase-3-Phase.jpg)
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It uses the inverter to charge at up to 60KW 3 phase. If every EV used such an elegant solution we wouldn't need big expensive DC chargers everywhere.
I know that Energica is doing that, but doesn't it require an AC induction motor to act as a transformer? I could be mistaken but I don't think it's possible with our permanent magnet-type motors.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to understand the patents but I believe the motor coils are used to add inductance. I imagine you could do the same with the coils in a PMAC but will leave it to an EE to confirm. Apparently they redesigned the motor and controller for 2015 so the motor is now 15% more efficient. It also said charging has increased but it doesnt say what to.
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When given both choices, what would yield the best results qua output, DC or AC input?
I will definitively opt for the power tank, but I first have to wait until the 2015's go into clearance sale before I can even think about affording one. An 2015 S with power tank goes at the moment for €18848 and there are no rebates in the Netherlands.
You could also get a 2014.
DC will provide the best input, but only because it will produce slightly less loss through thermal. Meaning, it makes less heat s will be more efficient... slightly.
In reality, both AC and DC can give the same power out, and for the next few months, we don't have a DC plug with Chademo or CCS communication, so AC is best option now.
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Do you have a ballpark on how many extra Watt a slightly more efficient charger is?
Sorry for hijacking this thread for a small rant
I'm currently looking into a 2014 S, there is exactly one for sale(a demo) in the whole country for €13.990,- but it has no power tank. If I can source one I should make it with one charge on the road but it's close and I also commute on my bike in the winter.
Argh the choice is tearing me apart. I really want to say goodbye to ICE but a 2x200km on a streetfighter on the motorway every week might be a challenge in the long run. Goddamit Zero why can't I order even the most modest fairing from you.
Anyway even if I must endure another year before I can switch I'll know where to get my highpower charger.
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Do you have a ballpark on how many extra Watt a slightly more efficient charger is?
Sorry for hijacking this thread for a small rant
I'm currently looking into a 2014 S, there is exactly one for sale(a demo) in the whole country for €13.990,- but it has no power tank. If I can source one I should make it with one charge on the road but it's close and I also commute on my bike in the winter.
Argh the choice is tearing me apart. I really want to say goodbye to ICE but a 2x200km on a streetfighter on the motorway every week might be a challenge in the long run. Goddamit Zero why can't I order even the most modest fairing from you.
Anyway even if I must endure another year before I can switch I'll know where to get my highpower charger.
Have you seen the fairing that Ripperton fitted to an SR? It looks great, you would obviously need one with lighting though.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/zero-sr-race-mods-124073.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/zero-sr-race-mods-124073.html)
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That does looks good, actually somebody near me has a Vetter Windjammer for sale, I wonder if that would fit a S.
Today the dealer that has the S is closed, I'll give them a ring tomorrow to see if they can still install a power tank.
Yeah, maybe this can work after all.
Edit: The reason why I want to know about DC charging is because I will use it almost daily. But if the difference is marginal mennekes might be better for the occational holiday.
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I think I saw something about the charger being able to charge at higher voltages, if so it's a good add on for my imiev and makes the charger more useful, anyone feel free to correct me if I'm just imagining that I read this, it'd be nice to swap it to the car for the long Canadian winter!
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I think I saw something about the charger being able to charge at higher voltages, if so it's a good add on for my imiev and makes the charger more useful, anyone feel free to correct me if I'm just imagining that I read this, it'd be nice to swap it to the car for the long Canadian winter!
Doesn't the Imiev have a Chademo connection?
Anyway I also send an email today, I hope they answer quick because I have the option to buy a 2104 S at a nice price.
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Doesn't the Imiev have a Chademo connection?
With the arrival of the updated Mitsubishi i-MiEV ES model in late spring 2014, a quick charge port (using the CHAdeMO standard) comes as standard equipment.
http://www.plugincars.com/mitsubishi-i-miev (http://www.plugincars.com/mitsubishi-i-miev)
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Yes it has chademo, but the Chargers are few and far between (I think the count is around 3 in ontario) I was hoping by tapping into the battery at the chademo contactor I could chrge at around 6.6 kW essentially doubling charge speed, the stock charger only charges at 3.3kw
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Hello!
I have a 2014 SR and several questions about this charger:
- Is it compatible with french charge stations? (are communication protocols different?)
- Will I have to let the bike on to charge? or can I switch the bike off, plug it to charge and leave it to take a coffee?
- Can you confirm or correct this assumption (for my understanding):
The battery pack shouldn't be pushed more than 106v (may be a little bit more), thus the max charge rate I should get from a station would be
P = 106v x Max_station_amperage
For example, a charge station with Type 2 (mennekes) that is set 63A max and 223V can provide 63*223=14 kW, but with the battery tension limitation I should charge only at 63*106=6.6 kW.
- If this station is three phase, can the diginow supercharger get full power of the three phase? that would give me (63*3)*106=20 kW of charge rate!
- With the 11.4 kWh battery pack, what is the max charge rate I shouldn't exceed to avoid damaging the battery?
- I've read that the supercharger slow down at 85% to allow a better charge at the end (balancing,...?). What happen if I stop at that percent each time I charge during a road trip? will I need to get a full charge once in order to let the cells charging in good conditions?
- Here in France most fast charging stations are in type 2 (mennekes), that is why I would first consider this plug for fast charging,
but we also have a lot of type 1 (J1772) that can provide 3 kW or even 6 kW for some, I would also consider this option.
Does diginow sell and adaptor to connect the diginow supercharger type 2 socket to the station type 1 plug?
- When a Chademo solution will be released, will I have to buy another charger for that?
- Does the diginow supercharger void the Zero warranty of the battery pack?
- How much does it cost?
And finally, do you know if it has already been sold to France?
I'm sorry to ask so many questions
Thank you for any answers!
Vai
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I am not EC, and I don't have one of these YET but I will answer some of your concerns.
- Is it compatible with french charge stations? (are communication protocols different?)
it works with mennekes stations just fine.
- Will I have to let the bike on to charge? or can I switch the bike off, plug it to charge and leave it to take a coffee?
Almost all external chargers use the built in zero wiring to let the bike know an external charger is attached and charging. You don't need to leave the bike on, it will know it has chargers attached. You might need to power the bike on then back off if it has been sitting a long time however.
- Can you confirm or correct this assumption (for my understanding):
The battery pack shouldn't be pushed more than 106v (may be a little bit more), thus the max charge rate I should get from a station would be
P = 106v x Max_station_amperage
For example, a charge station with Type 2 (mennekes) that is set 63A max and 223V can provide 63*223=14 kW, but with the battery tension limitation I should charge only at 63*106=6.6 kW.
The bikes top voltage is 116vDC ... at 106v you are looking at around 50% SOC
So theoretically you could get up to 7308w
- If this station is three phase, can the diginow supercharger get full power of the three phase? that would give me (63*3)*106=20 kW of charge rate!
It should be able to consume 3 phase but the voltage IN might be a limitation. Other emotowerks chargers are purchased for either 380 or <240 ...
- With the 11.4 kWh battery pack, what is the max charge rate I shouldn't exceed to avoid damaging the battery?
You can't damage the battery ... the BMS will prevent you from doing this. On the 2014 I think the max charge rate is 1C or ~10kW
- I've read that the supercharger slow down at 85% to allow a better charge at the end (balancing,...?). What happen if I stop at that percent each time I charge during a road trip? will I need to get a full charge once in order to let the cells charging in good conditions?
If you are going to charge up to 85% or 90% only on a regular basis then once a month just plug the bike in when you are at home and let the cells balance. I have heard of people doing just this and going 3 months between balancing.
- Here in France most fast charging stations are in type 2 (mennekes), that is why I would first consider this plug for fast charging,
but we also have a lot of type 1 (J1772) that can provide 3 kW or even 6 kW for some, I would also consider this option.
Does diginow sell and adaptor to connect the diginow supercharger type 2 socket to the station type 1 plug?
The charger will come with a menneke or J plug input depending on what you order. Anything beyond that might be special order but I am sure it can be created.
- When a Chademo solution will be released, will I have to buy another charger for that?
CHaDEmo is a direct DC charging solution. You don't need a charger on the bike to use it. If you wanted to though you might be able to use it as an input for your diginow charger but it wouldn't be more efficient.
The earliest known release I know of is mid to late next year ... and it is still in a prototype phase and hasn't been tested. It will be about 2/3's the cost of this solution but won't work with any menneke or J plugs since they are AC charging solutions requiring you to carry chargers.
- Does the diginow supercharger void the Zero warranty of the battery pack?
There is nothing about the charger that will void your warranty. The battery is a smart battery and will protect itself from harm if it needs to. The charger also interfaces with your CAN traffic to know what the bike is requesting.
- How much does it cost?
It is about ~$3k last I heard but that depends on other options you may or may not order. Send a message to Electric Cowboy for more details.
And finally, do you know if it has already been sold to France?
If I recall correctly this will be sold around the world but no one has one outside the US yet as it is in the first production run.
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- Can you confirm or correct this assumption (for my understanding):
The battery pack shouldn't be pushed more than 106v (may be a little bit more), thus the max charge rate I should get from a station would be
P = 106v x Max_station_amperage
For example, a charge station with Type 2 (mennekes) that is set 63A max and 223V can provide 63*223=14 kW, but with the battery tension limitation I should charge only at 63*106=6.6 kW.
The bikes top voltage is 116vDC ... at 106v you are looking at around 50% SOC
So theoretically you could get up to 7308w
If the Supercharger voltage is below the AC supply voltage, which it pretty much always will be, it can supply more DC amps than AC amps, until it reaches its maximum rated DC amp output or the AC supply reaches its maximum AC output (and trips a breaker).
You should be able to charge from this charge station at the maximum 8-9 kW that the Supercharger can supply.
- If this station is three phase, can the diginow supercharger get full power of the three phase? that would give me (63*3)*106=20 kW of charge rate!
It should be able to consume 3 phase but the voltage IN might be a limitation. Other emotowerks chargers are purchased for either 380 or <240 ...
Ask EC. The normal eMotorWerks charger does not mentio (https://docs.google.com/document/d/14axudenSziPm8gjc8Sv2n5Np-XDPIssUk-YkXAVsxSw/edit)n a 3 phase option for their lower voltage configuration, but may be an oversight. And anyways the DigiNow charger may be custom-made for the Zero bikes.
So .. back to ask EC : )
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Do you have a ballpark on how many extra Watt a slightly more efficient charger is?
Sorry for hijacking this thread for a small rant
I'm currently looking into a 2014 S, there is exactly one for sale(a demo) in the whole country for €13.990,- but it has no power tank. If I can source one I should make it with one charge on the road but it's close and I also commute on my bike in the winter.
Argh the choice is tearing me apart. I really want to say goodbye to ICE but a 2x200km on a streetfighter on the motorway every week might be a challenge in the long run. Goddamit Zero why can't I order even the most modest fairing from you.
Anyway even if I must endure another year before I can switch I'll know where to get my highpower charger.
Have you seen the fairing that Ripperton fitted to an SR? It looks great, you would obviously need one with lighting though.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/zero-sr-race-mods-124073.html (http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/zero-sr-race-mods-124073.html)
Slightly off-topic...
What I'd really like is the combo of the DigiNow charger, a powertank, and a fairing that looks like this (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4164.msg26081#msg26081)... It's an Aprilia RSV4 race fairing put on the bike for track use, and apparently only adds ~12kg to the overall weight (OK, I'd need the fairing to be slightly taller for comfortable sport-touring or highway riding rather than a full-on sportbike tuck).
This type of fairing may not add as much range as the fully-enclosed one Vetter's apparently working on, but the latter wouldn't be acceptable in my environment (need to be able to park on pedestrian sidewalks without adding a lot to the stock width/length/height of the bike).
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Here is a photo of a Pre-Production testing model.
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/12118907_10205104351029362_1938010128816903699_n.jpg?oh=9cdd9c86cf4e192bf43ac6345f711b77&oe=56CD5E8C)
A year after it was "launched," I can't find a way to buy one, and the company that created it has no form of contact. Is this project/product dead?
My purchase of a Zero is contingent upon this product's availability. Zero's tank charger is unacceptable.
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The project is not dead. I'm not free to share specifics, but they've been making design revisions that address various issues found during testing and from early customers. Thankfully the revisions are not expensive and turned out to be subtle.
I've updated the documentation to cover the interface for interacting with the control system, to help with the early customer adoption.
I do encourage DigiNow to issue regular (even defensively-worded) updates.
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Is there any controller hookup documentation online yet? I'm still curious how charging via the controller goes.
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The controller connection is documented, and is not difficult, just needs the right (quality) hardware and extra operational awareness on the customer's part. The documentation is DigiNow's to release as they see fit.
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Haven't found it anywhere yet. I'm working a bit on the tail with cardboard and cad and knowing how the charging setup will be would help a lot with designing before it arrives.
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Haven't found it anywhere yet.
It is intentionally not publicly available.
I'm working a bit on the tail with cardboard and cad and knowing how the charging setup will be would help a lot with designing before it arrives.
Plan for a set of high capacity power cables much like the ones that run from the battery to the controller B+/B- terminals, but capped with a red Anderson connector. That is literally what we're talking about. I can't discuss lengths or such, but I will say that routing high power cables should be done with care to avoid motion, chafing, or excessive bending.
If you plan to put the supercharger on the tail rack, I highly recommend figuring out a way to reinforce the tail rack so that it cannot wave around at speed if going over a bump. (Terry welded tubes that run from the passenger footpeg area to the top plate, for example.) The stock rack is not suitable for loads of that size, in my opinion.
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It is intentionally not publicly available.
Bit of a bummer but understandable from a business perspective.
Plan for a set of high capacity power cables much like the ones that run from the battery to the controller B+/B- terminals, but capped with a red Anderson connector. That is literally what we're talking about. I can't discuss lengths or such, but I will say that routing high power cables should be done with care to avoid motion, chafing, or excessive bending.
If you plan to put the supercharger on the tail rack, I highly recommend figuring out a way to reinforce the tail rack so that it cannot wave around at speed if going over a bump. (Terry welded tubes that run from the passenger footpeg area to the top plate, for example.) The stock rack is not suitable for loads of that size, in my opinion.
The endgame is to put a nice butt on it that can house the SC nice and dry while providing some extra slipperiness to the bike, but until then it will probably be a reinforced top case.
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@BrianTRice how much effort would it be to mount two super chargers on the happy trails SU pannier rack, and would it be any more structurally sound on a stock Zero than a top rack? Are 3x superchargers a supported configuration (that's 18kW-45kW charging anywhere you can find three J-plugs)?
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@BrianTRice how much effort would it be to mount two super chargers on the happy trails SU pannier rack, and would it be any more structurally sound on a stock Zero than a top rack? Are 3x superchargers a supported configuration (that's 18kW-45kW charging anywhere you can find three J-plugs)?
I have to say that the Happy Trails SU rack is extremely sturdy now that I've installed it (see http://www.happy-trail.com/find-your-bike/zero-motorcycle.html (http://www.happy-trail.com/find-your-bike/zero-motorcycle.html) ). I don't think effort is the issue. Is it advisable? Here are my estimates:
- You could drop the supercharger into aluminum panniers that could enclose it with lids to open when running (SU). But those panniers would be very bulky (at least 7" wide/deep) and result in a lot of drag without fabricating something to round off the front/back.
- The weight supported (25lbs per supercharger) at that distance from the center of the bike will cause handling problems. The bike suspension preload will at least need to be increased substantially, and the bike will require more effort to lean out/in.
- Routing the cables to/from the panniers still has challenges to protect them.
- I would not want to damage a Supercharger given what I paid for even one, so a side mount is a little worrying.
- Two Superchargers would be difficult to use on a Zero, because the battery will refuse to charge faster than a 1C rate which for a DSR 13 is about 11 kW. A single Supercharger can already exceed that on one powersupply, which is why I'm okay with one Supercharger and one Elcon 2500 (15lbs) so I can get ~1C out of 2 J plugs. Also, using two high power chargers at once requires some care, and a two Supercharger configuration has not been planned for or tested.
So, I guess the answer is "no" with the present bike design, but I like that we can at least envision it.