ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Parts, Mods And Hacks => Topic started by: manitou on November 06, 2015, 12:08:07 AM
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So, what's the best I can build for the less than $2k price point (2013 Zero DS 11.4)? I'm ok with making my own cables and not having official support for that charging solution. My Bike does have 1 year of warranty left though.. so if I take it in for warranty work, I should be able to remove my custom charging solution.
I'm thinking givi side bags (regardless of charging solutions I want bags.. so I'm not counting this in the $2k). I don't mind drilling a hole and using grommets for cable passage. I'm ok with fair weather only (open luggage lids to vent heat). I'd like a J1772 connection. I saw a video where someone did this type of solution without the givi containers.. is that still the best way to go? Due to price I might only get 1 Elcon2500 though.. would be nice to have the other side luggage for my own uses anyway.
thanks all!
(I looked at the soon to be released Diginow fast charging solution, but at $3k.. it's just too much.. I'd rather hit 1500 or less to be honest.. the bike itself is only worth so much these days)
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Are the cables so much that this wouldn't really be good for me?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ElCon-PFC2500-EV-Car-Charger-Electric-Vehicle-Lithium-Battery-EV-West/111090503662?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D54e86c9aeba346b9b1cb55b7a22dcb47%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D111090505407 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ElCon-PFC2500-EV-Car-Charger-Electric-Vehicle-Lithium-Battery-EV-West/111090503662?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3D54e86c9aeba346b9b1cb55b7a22dcb47%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D111090505407)
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with the J1772 connection and various cables.. this would really push past my 2k limit I guess..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ElCon-PFC5000-EV-Car-Charger-Electric-Vehicle-Lithium-Battery-EV-West-/111090505407?hash=item19dd8296bf:g:~v4AAMXQhpdRr4Iy&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ElCon-PFC5000-EV-Car-Charger-Electric-Vehicle-Lithium-Battery-EV-West-/111090505407?hash=item19dd8296bf:g:~v4AAMXQhpdRr4Iy&vxp=mtr)
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You may want to look into thunderstruck motors tsm 2500, it's got everything you need to charge, except the j1772 socket, I think that I would have gone that way if I'd not got such a great deal on the tdk lambda charger, I still may down the road!
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Thanks for the lead, but they shot me down (emailed asking what they had to offer for my bike)
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Some people have made their own chargers using Meanwell power supplies. I think those get you the best bang for your buck.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I was just reading Burton's posts. Seems he's not done with the build yet though. I saw a video a while back where someone used Elcon2500's, but can't find that video anymore (much less a "how to"). I can follow directions, but making something completely from scratch is too intimidating.
I think I have a chance at making a "quick charger Y adapter" now. I could probably take a stab at making a J1772 socket to 2 C13. ugg..
why couldn't Zero just offer a charge tank for 2013/14's? I'd pay 2k, but that's my limit. The 3k diginow solution is just more than I want to spend.
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I was just reading Burton's posts. Seems he's not done with the build yet though. I saw a video a while back where someone used Elcon2500's, but can't find that video anymore (much less a "how to"). I can follow directions, but making something completely from scratch is too intimidating.
The irony is that you're replying to the person whose videos you probably watched! (Ben has made a great series of videos about his trip and the preparation. Granted, it's not step-by-step directions...)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io0wPZ-VK5I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=io0wPZ-VK5I)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKl1OHAhj-Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKl1OHAhj-Q)
I think I have a chance at making a "quick charger Y adapter" now. I could probably take a stab at making a J1772 socket to 2 C13. ugg..
why couldn't Zero just offer a charge tank for 2013/14's? I'd pay 2k, but that's my limit. The 3k diginow solution is just more than I want to spend.
If you invest in this, just make sure to use good tools for crimping cables in a safe manner, because they'll be channeling up to 100 amps, and a bad connection might melt and cause you to have a very bad time.
Personally, I've been scooping up used elements for most of my Elcon 2500 charging setup to keep costs down. But I also eventually put money down on DigiNow's charger because I like fast charging so much. So, my Elcon might be on the market soon.
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I also eventually put money down on DigiNow's charger because I like fast charging so much. So, my Elcon might be on the market soon.
I have a feeling there will be many Elcons available soon. Like shortly after Nov 24th when DigiNow intends to begin shipping it's first batch of Super Chargers. I know I'll be selling mine when it gets here and I have a chance to try it out.
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Some people have made their own chargers using Meanwell power supplies. I think those get you the best bang for your buck.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3987.msg24583#msg24583 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3987.msg24583#msg24583)
Total cost for my setup which can hook up to several common outlets was about $1100ish ... You can push out 52 amps up to 90% SOC with this stack and the stock charger. Amps are less if you want to push higher volts. I have my voltage set to 114 if I recall, but would have to check.
It is very light, very compact, but not weather resistant at all ...
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That's a great set up Burton, wish I understood it enough to build my own, but I'd need to ask you a few hours worth of questions. I wrote to someone that does side work like this, but I didn't even understand his questions:
"I am not that familiar with the pack voltage of the zero. The controller may go to 116 but I doubt the pack is that high fully charged, so you'd need to let me know. Also. What AC source are you charging from? J1772? A dryer outlet?
Find out for me:
Pack capacity
Pack voltage
And let me know how fast you want the batteries to charge if fully discharged."
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I literally just got the bike, so I can wait a bit. I'll keep an eye out for someone selling their old system to upgrade to the diginow setup.
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That's a great set up Burton, wish I understood it enough to build my own, but I'd need to ask you a few hours worth of questions. I wrote to someone that does side work like this, but I didn't even understand his questions:
"I am not that familiar with the pack voltage of the zero. The controller may go to 116 but I doubt the pack is that high fully charged, so you'd need to let me know. Also. What AC source are you charging from? J1772? A dryer outlet?
Find out for me:
Pack capacity
Pack voltage
And let me know how fast you want the batteries to charge if fully discharged."
Just point that person to the thread I linked ... if they can't figure it out from that then they don't need to be doing this work for you. The batter does indeed charge up to 116v and the capacity varies depending on the bike and the packs overall health as well as things like the weather and if you just ate a burrito or not ... but in general for my bike I am sitting at 10,568watts ...
Typically the system I linked will charge at around 5000watts with the stock charger which means a full charge in 2 hours ... but it isn't that simple because the meanwells would have to be adjusted to a higher voltage toward the end to get the most out of them and most people don't charge up to 100% but rather a number in the low 90% range to protect the battery from damage.
I had plans on making very detailed information on how to build one of these RSP stacks but with Brandon coming out with the emotowerks cobuilt charger it seems the demand for such a limited charging solution might not be there any more.
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That person he emailed is me, I'm just not intimate with the zero specs of all the different bikes.... and didn't have a reference on what he wants, what sort of source he has, or how fast he wants to charge...now I do, thanks Burton.
It's like going into a computer parts store and asking how to make his computer faster. There's a lot for questions that need to be answered first.
Still need the answer to what his AC source is, and how fast he wants to charge.
And btw, I just saw this thread. He emailed me personally so I'm kinda starting from the same point I do with all my other Elcon and Delta-q clients.
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That person he emailed is me, and I know plenty about charging and batteries. And btw, I just saw this thread. He emailed me personally so I'm kinda starting from the same point I do with all my other Elcon and Delta-q clients.
Awesome, good to know you are on the forums. To help answer some of your questions :
2013 Zero DS 11.4
I'd like a J1772 connection
The nominal pack for the bike is 10.5kW on average. At 90% you are looking at 114vdc from my experience. At 116v you are 100% and you cannot under any circumstances go over 118 or the bike will hate you for a while lol
J1772 connection should lead for the source voltage, 208-260VAC if I recall. (at least I have seen some 260VAC J1772 from eVgo)
As for how quickly he wants to charge ... I would have to assume as fast as possible for < $2k ;) Beggars can't be choosers there if you are limiting price.
Do you plan on building something from scratch or using something like an RSP stack?
One question I didn't see asked was weather and dust sealing requirements ... though I did see reference to givi side cases and have seen a couple people with givi E21's filled with meanwell RSP2000's ;)
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Honestly, I think overall a couple of delta-q or Elcon with a j1772 connector and some solid connections on the AC side is going to be pretty easy, durable and weatherproof.
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You might consider:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5167.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5167.0)
or http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5151.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=5151.0)
and get a J1772 connector through Zero.
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=122&zenid=1j2ak24gdogmlhc290bdgncug7 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=122&zenid=1j2ak24gdogmlhc290bdgncug7)
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That's probably what I'll end up doing (or something similar).
Some interesting stuff over here though:
http://modularevpower.com/index.htm (http://modularevpower.com/index.htm)
I was asking about this, when he directed me that site:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111090505407?item=111090505407&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F0%2Fe11051.m43.l1123%2F7%3Feuid%3D080e2412db3a4fe19bb7e72dda3f8129%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Febaymotors%252Fws%252FeBayISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526item%253D111090505407%2526ssPageName%253DADME%253AX%253ARTQ%253AMOTORS%253A1123%26exe%3D13453%26ext%3D34389%26sojTags%3Dexe%3Dexe%2Cext%3Dext%26srcrot%3De11051.m43.l1123%26rvr_id%3D0&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/111090505407?item=111090505407&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F0%2Fe11051.m43.l1123%2F7%3Feuid%3D080e2412db3a4fe19bb7e72dda3f8129%26loc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcgi.ebay.com%252Febaymotors%252Fws%252FeBayISAPI.dll%253FViewItem%2526item%253D111090505407%2526ssPageName%253DADME%253AX%253ARTQ%253AMOTORS%253A1123%26exe%3D13453%26ext%3D34389%26sojTags%3Dexe%3Dexe%2Cext%3Dext%26srcrot%3De11051.m43.l1123%26rvr_id%3D0&vxp=mtr)
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That is likely going to be the easiest for you since those chargers are already setup for the Zero. Just need a J1772 adapter and a splitter to go into how-ever many chargers you're using. You could get both of those chargers (if they're for the same model year, just check they're the same).... and a J1772 and charge at 2000W higher than your onboard charger.
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Wasn't there some change in 2014 that allowed multiple add-on chargers (vs 2013 that only supports 1 additional charger)?
I haven't found where any additional charger plugs in yet, but I'm sure something is in there.
I watched all those videos where one of you road from jersey to Mexico to Canada. It's a 2024 SR with dual elcon Chargers and a j1772 adapter. Got me fired up to tinker, but patience.. Patience.
I'd hate to miss out on a much better solution that's right around the corner (whatever that may be.. Things move fast in this space)
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Wasn't there some change in 2014 that allowed multiple add-on chargers (vs 2013 that only supports 1 additional charger)?
There's not an additional plug; they just upgraded the Anderson connector circuit for charging from a 30A fuse/conductors to 100A or so. You should use a splitter cable like Zero's Y adapter (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_5&products_id=196) if a single charger that you buy doesn't provide the charge rate on its own. A single Elcon 2500 will not exceed the 30A limit.
On any Zero, you can bypass this circuit by using the conductors meant for the controller.
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The y cable would be for like 2 elcon 2500's right? In that case I should upgrade the Anderson connection and fuse.. Or what's this about going straight to the controller? What the Anderson connection for? Just a disconnect point for off board chargers?
I think it's all starting to make sense now.
Couple more questions though..
1) is there something about a basic j1772 socket that doesn't work on all charge stations? (Some single that supposed to be there but isn't?)
2) has anyone found a good replacement for the onboard 1300 charger? Like a 2500+ that takes up the same space and is weather proof.. (Wondering if there's an easy upgrade for now)
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The y cable would be for like 2 elcon 2500's right?
Yes, but you can't inject 5kW of power from 2 Elcons into that 30A charging circuit. I have blown that fuse using the DigiNow super charger.
In that case I should upgrade the Anderson connection and fuse..
Literally no one has done this to my knowledge. This would be new territory and I would not recommend it.
Or what's this about going straight to the controller? What the Anderson connection for? Just a disconnect point for off board chargers?
I think it's all starting to make sense now.
The anderson connector is for offboard charging in an OEM-approved way (notice that they sell offboard chargers; the Elcon solution just happens to fit).
The controller connection is about (as I interpret it, still waiting for the install procedure for the DigiNow super charger which will need this method for 2013) mounting DC cabling to the input side of the controller which of course leads to the battery. Or the output side of the controller so that it's effectively charging through regeneration? Someone who's done this before should speak up to correct any misconceptions about this. Everyone who's done it just says it's simple and leaves out these details. :p I've worked on power electronics over a decade ago, but do not fully understand the dynamics of the Sevcon controllers.
Couple more questions though..
1) is there something about a basic j1772 socket that doesn't work on all charge stations? (Some single that supposed to be there but isn't?)
2) has anyone found a good replacement for the onboard 1300 charger? Like a 2500+ that takes up the same space and is weather proof.. (Wondering if there's an easy upgrade for now)
1) If your charger requests less power than the station demands, there should be no problem. But there is a signal for negotiating power capacity which the vehicle should honor so that it doesn't trip the station's circuit protection breakers (say). https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/wiki/J1772Basics
2) The short answer is no. The underbelly charger is pretty compact and would need to dissipate more heat to have higher capacity. Burton's videos cover this.
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"In that case I should upgrade the Anderson connection and fuse..
Literally no one has done this to my knowledge. This would be new territory and I would not recommend it."
Another one of the times when I over simplify a complicated topic I suppose. I was thinking it was just the connector, fuse and maybe upgraded cable gauge for a short run.. Mind filling me in on what I'm missing?
Somewhat related, the diginow solution they are brewing up now claims to work on my 13 and injects 7.5 kw of juice into somewhere... are they going straight into the controller?
Thanks.
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For the 2013 bikes the diginow charger MUST go through the controller as the stock fuse would blow on the external charging Anderson connector.
This means making sure the bike knows it needs to charge via the white(black stripe) or white(brown stripe) wires leading off the Anderson connector used for charging ... I assume the diginow charger does this though as it was suggested you can remove the stock chargers all together.