ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MichaelJohn on January 25, 2016, 10:17:17 AM
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Help me out guys. Just before Christmas I bought myself a present, a Leo Vince slip-on for my Honda NC700. It is not obnoxiously loud but it is much louder than the stock pipe which made the bike sound like a sewing machine. The Honda really wasn't much louder than my SR. Well, maybe not that quiet but the little noise that it did make had no character at all. Now it has a nice deep rumble that I am really enjoying. I know that "loud pipes save lives" is a contoversial statement and I have never thought it was much more than Harley justification. My bike is nowhere near Harley loud or screaming sport bike loud but I have to admit that I feel a little safer out in traffic, especially lane-splitting and passing. I have noticed that people do react to the sound. Now when I am cruising through a parking lot with pedestrians walking in all directions people hear me coming and get out of the way. The Zero (and the stock Honda) sneaks up on people. When I ride at night now I almost always take the Honda because I feel safer on it (plus it has a better headlight!). Between the Zero and the Honda I think I was beginning to crave a little exhaust noise being an old gearhead from the musclecar days. So I got my aural gratification along with an unexpected side effect. I love my SR, but lately I have felt much safer on the Honda simply because I think I am being noticed more and in my mind every little bit helps. Do any of you guys have the same experience when you get on a gas motorcycle? Am I deluding myself? Any and all opinions welcome.
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Here ya' go!
http://www.kotulas.com/deals/gifts-and-gadgets/gifts-on-a-budget/turbospoke-bike-exhaust-system (http://www.kotulas.com/deals/gifts-and-gadgets/gifts-on-a-budget/turbospoke-bike-exhaust-system)
This is 'tongue in cheek' but maybe not.
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Loud pipes do not save lives they just annoy the hell out of other people.
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http://www.autoevolution.com/news/most-common-motorcycle-myths-debunked-part-1-45969.html (http://www.autoevolution.com/news/most-common-motorcycle-myths-debunked-part-1-45969.html)
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Here ya' go!
http://www.kotulas.com/deals/gifts-and-gadgets/gifts-on-a-budget/turbospoke-bike-exhaust-system (http://www.kotulas.com/deals/gifts-and-gadgets/gifts-on-a-budget/turbospoke-bike-exhaust-system)
This is 'tongue in cheek' but maybe not.
Well you got me. I had one very similar to that on my Huffy when I was a kid.
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This philosophy puts the riders safety in the hands of the drivers of the other vehicles on the road. It relies on the ability of the other vehicles to hear the rider in order to prevent the vehicle from doing something like pulling out in front of the rider or cutting the rider off. In my opinion there are several flaws with this philosophy.
1. Other vehicles on the road can't always hear the rider even with loud pipes. Distractions like music, GPS, phone conversations and even conversations with passengers prevent the drivers from hearing the rider no matter how loud the pipes are. These drivers can't even hear emergency vehicles that have sirens that are designed to cut through the constantly improving sound proofing in vehicles and all the distractions previously mentioned.
2. There are many drivers that will pull out in front of riders or cut them off even when they hear the riders loud pipes. They hear the rider but they are going to do these things anyway.
3. A major cause of injury to riders resulting from other vehicles is getting rear ended while the rider is stopped. This is caused by any number of distractions or other factors. It happens to vehicles and motorcycles equally. Loud pipes do not help prevent this type of accident. The safest thing you can do as a rider is to nestle yourself between other vehicles so that if there is a collision you are less likely to take a direct hit and although you may still get hit and injured your injuries can be minimized. Unfortunately, the laws in the US make this illegal in most of the country.
I would agree that there are examples when hearing a riders loud pipes prevents a driver from accidentally pulling out in front of the rider or cutting the rider off. For me personally, I ignore these examples. Thinking that another vehicle will act appropriately because they hear my loud pipes hampers critical thinking when the other vehicle doesn't hear my loud pipes or do something dangerous anyway. I don't want lull myself into a false sense of security in other vehicles ability to hear me. I choose to focus on ensuring that I am prepared to react to as many bad scenarios as I can think of for any given situation. I am constantly analyzing my surroundings and running scenarios in my head so that I already know what I am going to do when the dangerous situation develops. I choose to try and constantly improve my riding skills rather than relying on others driving skills. My worry would be that even if I have excellent riding skills, I am not prepared to use them in a critical moment because I am expecting the driver to hear my loud pipes.
The situation is the same if you are talking about a pedestrian or bicycle rider except kind of reversed. Assuming you are wearing good protective gear, they are likely to get more injured than you are but you can both end up injured and counting on the ability of the pedestrian or bicycle rider to hear the rider puts safety in the hands of the pedestrian or bicycle rider rather than taking personal responsibility for my actions as a rider. It is my responsibility as a rider to make sure I am not endangering others just as much as its my responsibility to take ownership of my own safety. Once again, relying on the pedestrian or bicycle rider to hear me means I may not be prepared to use my riding skills in a critical moment. But if I am the pedestrian or bicycle rider I am not relying on motorcycles or other vehicles to see me to stay safe. I am equally engaged in analyzing my surroundings based on the level of risk (i.e. I don't generally listen for cars when I'm walking down my hallway ;D ).
I admit that I am a long time lover of the sounds of ICE motorcycles. I have my favorites but the sound of just about any motorcycle can bring a thrill to my heart. Especially if I am hearing it while I am the rider. This comes from exposure since birth to the connection between speed and sound. The loud exhaust provides the sound that becomes attached to the spectacle of speed. The sound of exhaust enhances the experience for a spectator. When the spectator becomes the rider the sound enhances the ride because the riders brain is remembering previous experiences where they were the spectator. It's pretty interesting from a psychological point of view.
But even if it isn't helping or you just aren't relying on it and you are staying prepared to use your skills at all times, it can't hurt to have loud pipes right? Maybe it can. Having a quieter motorcycle means its easier for the rider to hear other vehicles and other things in the environment. The ability to hear these things can be used to the riders advantage to provide important situational awareness. Better situational awareness gives the rider more time to apply riding skills to avoid dangerous situations completely or to get out of dangerous situations with minimal injury.
Many people have told me they think my Zero is the most dangerous motorcycle on the road because its so quiet. Of course, it's not completely silent and in my opinion this is completely backwards. I think electric motorcycles are much safer for riders than ICE motorcycles. Just based on noise alone. When you then take into consideration the following added benefits, in my opinion it is overwhelmingly safer than an ICE motorcycle.
1. No gear changing in an electric motorcycle. This means you can more easily use the throttle as a tool to separate yourself from dangerous situations. You don't even need to think about what gear you are in thus its not a factor in the equation.
2. No transmission in an electric motorcycle. This means you don't need to even think about whether or not you need to apply a clutch when you are braking. Again, not a factor in the equation.
3. The hot parts on electric motorcycles aren't in positions that can burn the rider and they don't reach anywhere near the temperature of an ICE motorcycles hot parts. Avoiding hot parts isn't a factor in the equation.
Although I still love to ride ANY motorcycle I have the opportunity to throw a leg over, I feel much safer on my Zero than I do on any ICE motorcycle. And to top it off, there are many reasons an electric motorcycle is more FUN to ride than an ICE motorcycle. But that's a separate topic completely ;D
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Strangely, I'm commuting in the same county, in Oakland, and really feeling well-enough noticed on the Zero. I lanesplit nearly every day; cars pull aside for me when I know they can't hear me. Of course, I'm more cautious on rainy nights, but I wouldn't trust exhaust noise to keep me safe on those nights, anyway.
I'm basically with mrwilsn on this point: focus on your awareness and ability to react instead of relying on others to notice you.
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A very good post there mrwilsn. I'm also +1 on everyone else's comments too. It's a resounding 'No' I think.
I'm glad you raised the subject Michael. I'd like to add that in my experience of commuting into London, I've found that the traffic treats you like you treat it. People are very good at reading body language and riding style has it's own language too. If you enter that conversation with a loud obnoxious pipe, you can expect an appropriate response. On the other hand, if you ride like you walk, like a gentleman I'd presume, other road users are more accommodating. They're also more chilled about life and more likely to forgive small errors.
A loud pipe is like the driver listening to Eminem at full volume with the window down, to most people. Very few appreciate the noise and it just makes them feel tense. It adds stress to the equation and many people don't perform well under stress. Especially the kind of driver that isn't very confident in the first place.
I'd say loud pipes risk lives is more appropriate.
The acid test will be my commute. I'm already convinced that loud versus quiet pipes makes not one dot of difference, other than to antagonise. Now I've just gone silent around town will put that hypothesis to the ultimate test.
Many road users struggle to tell where the sound is coming from, especially in built up areas where there are lots of buses and other traffic. I think many just filter out the noise in their heads too. There's so much other background noise that they just switch it all off and think about dinner or the next pair of tits bouncing by... [emoji4]
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FWIW, I've ridden my SR as my daily ride for a year now, and I've not noticed any difference, good or bad, in driver's behavior versus riding my ICE bikes with various Toomey, Spec II, Kerker, Acropovic, or whatever pipes.
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Thinking about it, I have noticed a big difference in following distances.
Normally people in Orlando just plain ride my ass. Hard. 5-10ft following distances at 55mph in a 45 zone.
It seems the first time I use regen braking, they back way off, like a car length or so.
I'm not brake-checking anyone, I'm just rolling off when the guy in front of me slows down a bit.
For comparison on an ICE, I never use engine braking. I pull the clutch in and brake with the brakes.
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Research shows no difference in accident rates between loud bikes and quiet ones. Additionally I can hear the car noise around me on a Zero making me safer.
http://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/stop-saying-loud-pipes-save-lives
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I would say that the more information a driver/rider has about other vehicles, bicyclists, and pedestrians around him, the better. Hearing a motorcycle is better than NOT hearing a motorcycle, however since it seems like almost all cars have air conditioning, the windows are rolled up all the way in summer and winter. Combine that with the radio and other distractions, and a car driver isn't likely to hear any difference between an electric motorcycle and a gas one. Driving tends to be a VISUAL task. I think that wearing bright colors on a motorcycle is a good idea. Pedestrians in a parking lot can be challenging. They are as distracted as drivers now, since they just walk around with their heads down looking at the smart phone, AND may be wearing headphones as well. I have experimented with running an MP3 player on my homebuilt electric motorcycle playing a looping sound effect through some small speakers. It usually (but not always) gets pedestrians attention. Back to the visual aspect of things; Many gas cars nowadays are very quiet - especially in a parking lot when the engine is idling, and the driver hasn't pulled out of a parking space yet. Those are cases in which I wish everyone had daytime running lights or that full-time headlight use was mandatory. Having the lights on is a really good visual indicator that a vehicle is attended, on, and ready to move.
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Ah yes, the other thing that I forgot is that motorcycle mufflers point the WRONG direction!
I may have missed this earlier in the thread, but when I'm in my car, going fast, and motorcycles pass me, I generally don't hear them until they ARE PASSING me. I'm generally pretty good about scanning the horizon in front of me, but if I happen to be a little day-dreamy right then, it can even be STARTLING to suddenly have that loud noise right next to me.
If the "loud pipes save lives guys really want to be heard", the mufflers should point forward to project the sound towards where they are going.
I recently purchased a Mitsubishi iMiEV electric car. It has a noise-maker on it. There's a small speaker that points forward and it makes a UFO noise any time you are in gear, up to I think 22 miles per hour. The thought on that is that the sound is mostly for parking lots and intersections where there would be crosswalks & pedestrians (possibly blind ones.) Once the vehicle is traveling any reasonable speed, the tires and wind make more noise than the the UFO sound effect makes anyways. At speeds 25 mph and faster, a person crossing the street really needs to be LOOKING rather than listening for traffic anyways, just because of how fast it moves.
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+1 Great points mrwilson!!!!
I hear people with gas bikes say it all the time, but it just isn't true. I've ridden about 400,000 miles on gas bikes, and about 100,000 on electric motorcycles now and I'll never ride another bike that makes noise for my own safety. I want to hear what's going on around me to the best ability I have. I don't ever want to trust another driver to hear me. The day I believe they hear me and don't, there will be trouble for me. I'd rather not take that risk. I trust my riding and my senses to know my surroundings.
I will say I've met a few backwoods, redneck type, really old Harley riders who aren't the brightest star in the sky if you catch my drift. These guys that stumble when walking and can't turn their head without losing their balance and falling over, and then take 10 minutes to crawl their 325 pound bodies back to an upright position again. The ones whos friends toss them a beer and they hold their hands to block their face instead of even trying to catch it because they know they don't have good hand eye coordination. The ones who can't balance on a bicycle, yet ride a Harley. Have I described this well enough? You know what I mean right? I haven't seen any of these types in California, although I'm sure they are here somewhere, but there were a bunch in North Carolina. Not exactly like that but I sort of put them all together for my description.
Anyway my point is that these guys probably have had their lives saved from their loud pipes before. And they probably wouldn't do so well on an electric motorcycle. Most of these guys end up in wheel chairs from crashes despite their loud pipes eventually, but I'm sure it bought them a little extra time before their bad crash.
For those of us who can ride a bicycle, turn our head without getting dizzy, and can catch a tennis ball, I think we are safer if we don't have a loud pipe imparing our own hearing. With many many miles on 2 wheels I am convinced that I am safer when I can hear and make my own decisions to accelerate, brake or turn completely on my own. Spending even 500 milliseconds wondering whether a driver knows i'm there or not, is 1/2 second I'm not maneuvering myself as to not let it even be a concern.
The only time I've noticed it would be helpful to make some noise is in a grocery store parking lot, but then again I have a horn for that if I need it. And it's less than 2 mph. Doesn't really justify the "Loud pipes save lives" helmet sticker. Maybe "loud pipes help old grandmas with almost dead batteries in their hearing aids from slamming on their 4 wheel drum brake, white wall tire, pre-catalytic converter cars and tipping over their grocery bags in the back seat" Now there's a sticker that might have some real truth behind it! :)
Honestly tho, if for some reason you feel safer on your NC700 with a loud pipe than on the Zero, you have to go with that feeling. Many of us would probably feel safer on the Zero, but only you know how you feel and there may not even need to be a logical explanation behind it as long as it gives you confidence to feel safer and react faster.
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My only complaint about my quiet Zero is when trying to pass bicycle riders on narrow back roads. They tend to wander all over the road and sometimes will make a U-turn without looking because they don't hear a vehicle coming (I assume). I would love to use my horn to let them know that I am behind them and trying to pass, but around here (for some reason) that gets bicycle riders really mad so I avoid doing that. So far I haven't hit one yet and I hope I can continue to avoid a collision with a bicyclist. Sometimes a little noise can help. ???
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My only complaint about my quiet Zero is when trying to pass bicycle riders on narrow back roads. They tend to wander all over the road and sometimes will make a U-turn without looking because they don't hear a vehicle coming (I assume). I would love to use my horn to let them know that I am behind them and trying to pass, but around here (for some reason) that gets bicycle riders really mad so I avoid doing that. So far I haven't hit one yet and I hope I can continue to avoid a collision with a bicyclist. Sometimes a little noise can help. ???
If it's bicyclists, I literally just say "hey!" or "beep beep". The horn is overkill especially since I'm riding mountain roads and no one wants to be surprised.
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I thought I might get a reaction with this question. ;D Let me be clear that I would never rely on exhaust noise for my safety on the road. It does not even factor in. I do not ride any differently with a louder pipe as I am still a very cautious and conscientious rider. In fact, I ride the Honda more conservatively than the Zero - it just doesn't have the "get me out of this guy's blind spot right now" power burst of the SR and I ride accordingly. I am such a conservative rider/driver that in almost 50 years on the road I have never gotten a speeding ticket and I have owned plenty of high performance vehicles. Don't get me wrong, I love acceleration and attacking the twisties but I am reasonable about how and when I do it.
As far as being able to hear more on an electric bike there may some truth to that but I still hear over the Honda exhaust and I wear ear plugs which compromise my hearing on either bike anyway. Yes the exhaust sound is mostly behind the bike but it is not completely behind the bike. I can certainly hear motorcycles (or loud cars) coming up from behind.
All that being said I would never dream of relaxing on the road under the assumption that my exhaust enhances my survivability. I did say that I felt a little safer on the Honda but that does not mean that I am any less vigilant. My point was, all things being equal, that I might get noticed on the Honda where I wouldn't on the Zero. If that makes even the smallest difference, I'll take it.
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As a long time motorcyclist I think being seen is better than being heard. I added hand guards with LED lights in them to enhance front visibility. I have a luggage rack with LEDs wrapped around the sides and back, and LED extra brake light also. I also wear a bright red riding suit and bright multi colored helmet. So far so good.
And my last 3 street bikes were all very quiet. BMW, Honda Goldwing, Suzuki Burgman 650 scooter.
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It seems this is an emotive subject and for once, I didn't start it!
Having said very recently, probably in this thread, that I don't need to wear earplugs, I put them back in for my ride home tonight. It's the wind noise. The Schuberth is a quiet helmet but once you get above 60mph the decibels do go up. If I know I'm just going to potter about on some country lanes, I won't bother with the plugs, but on my commute there is enough time spent at high speed to warrant them. That means that in the city I'm relying on my vision mostly.
With vision in mind, I also think you can over-do it. Too much hi-vis, too many lights and people can get drawn to you like moths. The reason it's so dangerous to stop on the hard shoulder of a motorway is that people look at the stationary vehicle and unconsciously steer towards it. You tend to go in the direction you're looking.
I believe that whether it's noise or visibility it should be kept in moderation. Observation is key. Sound can be deceptive. Too much light or contrast can dazzle or distract. You want to be seen but kept in the context of all the other things that are happening. All this "look and listen to me" puts both the individual and other road users in danger. Distractions are bad. Allow other road users to take in the whole scene and there's less likelihood of an accident. It does require people to observe and pay attention though.
I don't think we can rely on being seen or heard, no matter how loud or fluorescent we are. The only way to have any chance of survival is to make sure there is enough space and time to react to not being seen. Keep relative speeds low and do your best to anticipate.
COAST:
Concentrate
Observe
Anticipate
Speed
Time
I like to ride fast and have fun, which is still possible if you keep COAST in mind. I'm not a mnemonic junkie but I think that one is worth it.
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I did say that I felt a little safer on the Honda but that does not mean that I am any less vigilant. My point was, all things being equal, that I might get noticed on the Honda where I wouldn't on the Zero.
Feeling safer and being safer are two different things. The research (Hurt report) shows no correlation between loud pipes and lower incidences of accidents. It's simply not true.
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When I first got my bike I really started paying attention to motorcycles on the road. I watched a guy coming up pretty quick in the fast lane going to work so I thought I'd try something. The radio was on local sports but not blaring. I looked straight ahead and waited until I heard the bike before i turned to see where he was when I heard him. He was right beside me directly even with my driver's seat in my truck when I heard him. The same place I would have looked if I were going to change lanes. Try it for yourself, REALLY loud pipes might be heard sooner but this was a mid size Harley that passed me. The doppler effect puts most of the sound behind the bike so it's still hard to hear it coming.
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Feeling safer and being safer are two different things. The research (Hurt report) shows no correlation between loud pipes and lower incidences of accidents. It's simply not true.
I don't believe that the Hurt report says anything about loud pipes at all. It does mention that modified exhaust systems are slightly over-represented in accidents but calls it insignificant. There is no mention of exhaust volume either pro or con.
I don't think that there is any real proof one way or the other.
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I'm glad you raised this topic Michael. Just out of interest, how do you feel after reading all the comments? Has your opinion changed, do you feel like you've been attacked at all? I'm curious because without the benefit of being face-to-face with people, the message can be misinterpreted. I hope you're not put off at all. It has been interesting reading everyone's comments. I'm a little surprised we didn't get more people from the loud pipes camp, but this is a forum for quiet bikes after all. I'm tempted to find a Harley forum and search for the same topic. It would be fun to see how all those guys react to the notion. I think Terry should pay them a visit, his description of them is hilarious! [emoji4]
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I'm in the same camp as Mrwilsn. I always tell people to assume, when they are riding a motorcycle, bicycle, whatever, that all of the drivers in all of the cars and trucks around them would like to kill them. Most of these drivers are too chicken to actually act on this desire, but there are always one or two who are willing to take that risk. With this scenario in mind, loud pipes aren't really all that reassuring - they just make it easier to locate you for destruction. ;-)
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I'm glad you raised this topic Michael. Just out of interest, how do you feel after reading all the comments? Has your opinion changed, do you feel like you've been attacked at all? I'm curious because without the benefit of being face-to-face with people, the message can be misinterpreted. I hope you're not put off at all. It has been interesting reading everyone's comments. I'm a little surprised we didn't get more people from the loud pipes camp, but this is a forum for quiet bikes after all. I'm tempted to find a Harley forum and search for the same topic. It would be fun to see how all those guys react to the notion. I think Terry should pay them a visit, his description of them is hilarious! [emoji4]
What Terry may not realize (referring to his comment about not seeing any redneck H-D riders in CA) is that most of the loud-pipe H-D owners in California are cops. Which is probably why other cops don't pull them over and give them tickets for not having mufflers or not wearing legal (if any) helmets. ::)
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MrWilsn you almost said it all!
I believe also in some years if EV registration takes off, people will also get used to it, and change some behaviours.
Anyway even if had ridden with some loud pipes years ago, I have no problem at all with the adaptation.
Street riding experience with bicycle, or e-bike helps a lot.
Don't forget, we still have the horn for very urgent matters!!!
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Mrwilsn + 1, but MichaelJohn, i understand where you are coming from.
bit off topic:
As far as the 'loud pipes saves lives" sticker goes..; some time ago, i was in Cali and i noticed 'loud pipes kill lives' on the back of a Tesla.
I bet that the average petit red-neck brain (yes, in Europe we have them too) does not understand that it took some 4500 dead american soldiers in Iraqi desserts, 'securing' the Bush administration need's for crude oil. Just as important: more then 100.000 Iraqi civilians died in the second Gulf War. So if you are looking for weapons of mass destruction; just look down the road.
And yes, i have one too, but doing my best to do as many km's on the Zero as possible :D
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I've said this before and I'll say it again.
I used to ride loud bikes but after riding the Zero for a couple of years I now realise that I was being an absolute wanker. I go for a nice walk in the country but my peace and quiet is constantly interrupted by noisy bikes and cars (mostly bikes). I feel sorry for anyone that lives near a major road or has pets/kids that are frightened by loud noises etc. etc.
I didn't realise how completely socially unacceptable loud pipes are, to the point that even if they did increase your safety by a couple of percentage points (which they don't) I'm still not sure it would be morally justifiable. It's probably not as big a problem in the city but I live in a picturesque area that is popular with walkers and visitors. Studies have shown that traffic noise increases stress levels, and the last thing anyone needs is more stress.
On a practical point, in the UK highway code it says that the horn should be used to alert other road users to your presence, I have made a point of using it for that purpose (rather than for expressing anger as with most drivers) and it has certainly been handy on a number of occasions, usually at lower speeds in town as the horn is too weedy for higher speed use.
I read somewhere many years ago, and haven't been able to find it since, that ~85% of modern car drivers routinely fail to hear emergency sirens, so what chance do they have of hearing a bike among all the other white noise. Some departments have started using low frequency 'rumbler' sirens to defeat the sound insulation and loud radio everyone is listening to.
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I was at Deals Gap talking with some other riders when our conversation was interrupted by a few very loud bikes taking off. One of them made the comment: "Loud pipes are really obnoxious except when they are yours". Very true.
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I'm glad you raised this topic Michael. Just out of interest, how do you feel after reading all the comments? Has your opinion changed, do you feel like you've been attacked at all? I'm curious because without the benefit of being face-to-face with people, the message can be misinterpreted. I hope you're not put off at all. It has been interesting reading everyone's comments. I'm a little surprised we didn't get more people from the loud pipes camp, but this is a forum for quiet bikes after all. I'm tempted to find a Harley forum and search for the same topic. It would be fun to see how all those guys react to the notion. I think Terry should pay them a visit, his description of them is hilarious! [emoji4]
Well Bonkers, I invited any and all comments so I don't feel attacked or put off at all. I didn't invent "loud pipes save lives" so I'm not invested in it. It's a bit of an extreme statement that I used to start the thread. My position is that some noise on a motorcycle might make us a little more conspicuous, that's all. I brought it up because it's a feeling that I have been getting on my recent rides and I wanted some feedback. I know which way he wind blows on this forum (and as forums go, this is a very civil one) and I expected most to take the other side but I wanted to hear why. I do find it mildly surprising that many people are absolutely sure that noise makes no difference at all. I am not completely convinced. I don't think that this is a black and white issue. I am glad that Benswing brought up the Hurt Report because I was then compelled to go back and look at it to see exactly what it said. I found nothing condemning loud pipes so now I am a bit more skeptical when people say that "loud pipes save lives" is proven to be false. I say show me the data, I would truly love to see it. Truth is, I don't think anyone knows for sure. I was also a little surprised that many said that exhaust noise was no substitute for other safety measures because I never meant to imply that. I'll end by saying that I still think that drivers and especially pedestrians notice me more on my ICE bike (which, by the way, is not obnoxiously loud). The more people aware of my presence on a motorcycle, the better. That's my opinion, and it's as good as any! ;)
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Well put Michael. Well put everyone really!
My experience has been similar to what NoiseBoy said. I've climbed that ladder of consciousness and I think 'Oh, just fuck off!' when I hear loud pipes. To me, it feels like I'm walking down the street and there's someone walking along with a ghetto blaster turned up high. It's aggressive, obnoxious, annoying and I just want to punch them. Worst of all it just gives us bikers a bad reputation.
I might start carrying a few bananas around and insert them where the sun doesn't shine. Firstly in the tailpipe and then I'll threaten to shove one so far up their arse they'll be able to taste it! [emoji6]
Wherever you ride, there will be other people, or animals, within earshot. Why pollute when it's unnecessary and plain selfish? Just pay attention, ride safe and bin the cans completely. IMHO.
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I'm enjoying this discussion, and the RevZilla article on loud pipes! I do feel the subject ranges across polar opposites; loud Harley Davidson pipes vs quiet electric motorcycles, and risk of danger to the bikers vs those around them, pipes or not.
I believe safety is a gradient, ranging from danger to the rider, to danger to those around them. I'm sure many people have read of proposals, in Europe and the USA, to add sound to electric vehicles at slow speed or a complete stop. My understanding is this for the benefit of handicapped people that may have reduced hearing abilities, or sight/body-restricted to fully, and frequently, view active traffic while crossing a road.
I've added a Swedish manufacturer "SoundRacer" system, with dual speakers to my DS, and I use the sounds when at a stop if I see people near the crosswalk. The main use, however, is to get a laugh, and appreciation/respect for a quiet electric motorcycle with similar performance characteristics, from ICE bikers. You can view a 30 second mp4 of the SoundRacer operation here: https://youtu.be/SE_gmrhzU_Y . I've attached the sound frequency increase line, separate from the wheel hall sensor input line, to the bike high-beams to "blip the engine"
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Awesome, Nano!!!! ;D ;D
And build sophisticated!
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My only complaint about my quiet Zero is when trying to pass bicycle riders on narrow back roads. They tend to wander all over the road and sometimes will make a U-turn without looking because they don't hear a vehicle coming (I assume). I would love to use my horn to let them know that I am behind them and trying to pass, but around here (for some reason) that gets bicycle riders really mad so I avoid doing that. So far I haven't hit one yet and I hope I can continue to avoid a collision with a bicyclist. Sometimes a little noise can help. ???
As a long-time former bicyclist around bay area backroads, one thing drivers/motorcyclist may not get is that going downhill (or fast on the flats) a bicyclist gets significant wind noise in their ears and can only hear the loudest cars behind them. They will not notice a Prius or quiet small car or a zero going downhill (but they should be checking behind them if they are taking the whole lane and blocking traffic on a downhill, and move over when safe). However, on uphills they can/will hear any car coming up behind them, even a zero or a prius. Often they don't acknowledge the car behind them even when they notice it, as it can be difficult to turn your head all the way around while climbing slowly along the edge of the road. But trust me, unless they have earphones in (which is illegal, but you see people doing it) they will hear you on uphills. But annoying inconsiderate bicyclists in the bay area is a thread in itself!
Generally I agree that depending on a loud bike is a bad idea. I split traffic everyday and for example, I never split unless cars are side-by-side; when cars are staggered there is always the possibly that cars will make sudden lane changes. This is my #1 safety tip for splitting lanes: never split staggered cars. You roll the dice every time you pass a car with an empty lane beside it. Well, guys in loud bikes often do split staggered cars and are expecting drivers to hear them--it is a bad assumption. Every car these days has a 6 speaker stereo system and to bet your life that you will be heard is a bad bet.
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Others on this forum have used a bicycle bell on their their Zero to warn pedestrians and bicyclists.
The type is the single ding when lever is released. It gets attension but is not too long loud or offensive.
http://www.wiggle.com.au/?s=Bicycle+bell (http://www.wiggle.com.au/?s=Bicycle+bell)
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Good idea! Thanks for sharing firepower.
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Maybe drum on the plastics if you don't have a ding-bell installed (I don't and probably won't, until it happens to me ;-) ).
I find myself drumming on the plastics at a stoplight- a bicyclist might hear it.
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Aerostitch's latest blog post about riding the Zero FX in winter conditions has some nice things to say about silent riding: http://www.aerostich.com/blog/keys-please/ (http://www.aerostich.com/blog/keys-please/)
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I ride in heavy traffic jams every day, to and from work and I split lanes and ride the shoulders most of the way (in Israel this is common practice, even the highway police usually ignores the bikers who do that). In my experience, bike loudness is rarely a contributing factor in bikers safety when riding between the lanes
1. Many drivers ride with closed windows due to air condition
2. Many drivers listen to music or podcasts
3. Some drivers operate their smart phones
4. In heavy traffic, bikes move too fast for drivers anyway
As someone above me wrote, our safety should be in our hands, not in the hands of car drivers. The only change in my riding style since switching to Electric is that I pay more attention to pedestrians. Here lays the real danger IMHO. I'm not going to put any artificial loudness, I simply pay more attention, ride only in ECO mode in urban environment, etc.
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This thread is fascinating / Outstanding comments by all.
+1 mrwilsn (very nice)
+1 Manzanita (Lane Splitting rule)
+1 MostlyBonkers (for “COASTâ€)
At work today, I did an informal poll of RN's, PA's, NP's, MD's and numerous support personnel (about 60).
The results, almost all were hard-core in their beliefs, a definite Yes or a definite No - very few were middle of the road. Not surprising were – The Harley riders (about 10) were all “Yesâ€.
When approaching a Bicycle rider – Think like they do – 'On your Left -or- On your Right', 'Rider Up'. I've been at numerous Bicycle events. These phrases work wonders.
My rule - My safety is My responsibility.