ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: tico on June 23, 2016, 10:39:08 PM
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So it looks like my beloved 2014 model S (11.4kwh) that I got a month ago from trading in my old 2012 ZF9 is dead. I've already emailed Zero, but I'm curious if anyone else has had a similar experience:
Two days ago at the end of the day I plugged it in to charge with about 30% charge remaining, and then didn't touch it until late last night. The bike wouldn't turn on, the green charging LED is on solid, the dash shows a 2,3 blink code "CAN network error", 0% charge indicated on the dash, backlight doesn't light up blue, and most alarmingly, no LEDs at all on the BMS!! :o
With either cycling the key on and off, or plugging/unplugging the power cord, I don't hear the contactor click.
Tried to download the logs from the Zero app, but no luck.
Haven't heard back from Zero yet, but I'm guessing the charger ate the BMS or the battery?
If the battery has been run down to 0% I can't imagine it will recover well from that. I've only put about 600 miles on this bike this past month that I've had it, but I wonder if there was an issue with the way it was stored the past 2 years before I got it "new" that could lead to this kind of premature failure.
:'(
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Try resetting the BMS. Instructions on the zero manual site.
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Try resetting the BMS. Instructions on the zero manual site.
Thanks for the suggestion. I tried resetting the BMS, no response or change whatsoever. :(
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The earliest the closest dealer says I can drop it off is a week from now, no guarantees how soon they can look at it.
Anyone have any suggestions for troubleshooting what exactly died?
I would kill to have factory service manuals available like I had for my old Hondas.
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Well, before you drop it off, you can try uncovering the BMS and looking for any obvious damage or maybe if you're lucky a disconnect. I wrote some initial notes up based on combined advice from people who have done this in the wiki:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Battery_Management_System_.28BMS.29 (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Battery_Management_System_.28BMS.29)
Note that the board does connect to battery voltage no matter what (on the left side as you're facing the board which is apparently where cell voltages are read and balanced), so there is a potential for a spark or such. There's a large connector at the top which, if loose, would cause what you're seeing, but there are plenty of other explanations. (This connector is supposedly extremely hard to work with.)
Look over the board components for anything that looks fried. The board is not really fixable because of weather-hardening; you'll need a BMS replacement if it's anything other than a disconnect for the pins at top, but hopefully the dealership will believe you if you present with evidence and can pre-order the board to save time.
You also might be able to log into the MBB over serial via the OBD-II connector if it's actually getting power. I vaguely doubt that's true for your symptoms, though.
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Oh, and be careful not to lose any screws or rubber vibration dampeners; the way the BMS is mounted is really important for its safety. And make sure there's some dielectric grease near the front ports which is supposed to help prevent moisture damage.
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Thanks for the suggestion!
Though I don't see anything loose or anything obviously burnt. :(
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So does anybody know of an on-board charger dying in such a way that the battery discharges itself through the faulty charger?
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So does anybody know of an on-board charger dying in such a way that the battery discharges itself through the faulty charger?
I haven't seen any reports like that. It seems really unlikely - solid state electronics will usually burn out and just open a circuit rather than welding shut.
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So does anybody know of an on-board charger dying in such a way that the battery discharges itself through the faulty charger?
I haven't seen any reports like that. It seems really unlikely - solid state electronics will usually burn out and just open a circuit rather than welding shut.
Yeah, that makes sense to me as well, it's just strange to me that this is a 2014MY bike that I've driven for only a month before this problem came up, yet I see no other reports of charger problems from other people that have owned 2014s for the past couple of years. Ant the complete lack of any indicator LEDs on the BMS seems pretty uncommon too.
I mean, when my 2012 had motor magnet / pickup problems, so did tons of other folks.
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Did you check your fuses? The battery isn't completely dead, because you are seeing errors on the dash - if the battery was dead I expect the electronics generating these errors won't work.
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I looked at the fuses under the seat, didn't see anything amiss.
The bike is plugged into the charger, which I assume is how it's getting the power to light the green "charger connected" LED, as well as blink the "CAN network error" LED sequence. When I don't have the charger connected I don't see those.
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Well, my appointment with Gulf Coast BMW / British USA finally arrived, and I dropped off my Zero with them. More waiting to see what comes of it.
:-\
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So I heard back from the engineer at Zero-- it looks like they've determined that the BMS board is to blame, and that the battery voltage is okay.
Hopefully they can get that replaced without any other problems coming up and I'll be on the road again soon! ;D
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... another week goes by without my bike. :(
Still no updates.
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Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm that repairs take much longer than most of us users feel they should. It took exactly one month at the dealership to repair my '15 SR, and I was lucky they got it right on the first try. If the first attempt had not worked, I would have had to go through another cycle of at least 2-3 weeks of waiting and parts shipping from Zero to the dealership... And that is with a dealer who was really eager to do the repair as quickly as possible and with very focused support from Zero (so no unusual delays in my case, it just took that long to sort all things out and ship things from the West Coast to the East).
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Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm that repairs take much longer than most of us users feel they should. It took exactly one month at the dealership to repair my '15 SR, and I was lucky they got it right on the first try. If the first attempt had not worked, I would have had to go through another cycle of at least 2-3 weeks of waiting and parts shipping from Zero to the dealership... And that is with a dealer who was really eager to do the repair as quickly as possible and with very focused support from Zero (so no unusual delays in my case, it just took that long to sort all things out and ship things from the West Coast to the East).
I don't know, to me this whole situation is kind of preposterous -- for a $15K vehicle, I can imagine springing for next day shipping can't be that big of a deal -- I do that all the time with other equipment. How is this situation acceptable to anyone? All it does is piss off Zero's customers, and generate bad press for Zero when those pissed off customers talk about their experiences to everyone they know.
I just called the local dealership again today, and the service manager said that the parts hadn't arrived yet, and he didn't know when exactly they would. A week ago the engineer at Zero that I spoke with said they should be that day, or the next day. A week before that, the problem was diagnosed at the dealership within a few hours of me dropping the bike off (and emailing the engineer at Zero to please contact the service tech).
From the time that the problem was diagnosed until now (with the parts *still* not having arrived), I could have literally bicycled, carrying them, from California to Texas. (And I've bicycled from the bay area to Houston before, so I know what I'm talking about.)
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Either Zero does not have your parts in stock at the factory (which is quite possible), or their parts shipping department staff needs to start doing their job. :( I can't think of any reason not to ship out parts within a day or two of the order being placed by one of their dealers. ???
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I would certainly hope that they keep BMS boards in-stock. :o
Regardless, if they're not planning on being able to ship it for a while I would expect that they would (A) know that and (B) communicate that, just like any other company would.
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I would certainly hope that they keep BMS boards in-stock. :o
Regardless, if they're not planning on being able to ship it for a while I would expect that they would (A) know that and (B) communicate that, just like any other company would.
Well, Zero isn't exactly like any other company.....
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Ask for a replacement vehicle - it tooks me months when I had to fix my bike, and they did not think about lending me another bike but lent me on old zero 2012 when I asked for. Not the same experience but at least you have a bike !
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When I had all the problems with my old 2012 I begged for any kind of loaner bike (or even a voucher to go find one on my own) and got turned down consistently, but when they open again I'll ask and see if this time I get any better response.
:(
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Just to update, I got my bike back last Thursday, and it's been riding fine so far. The range estimator seems a bit wonky, but I'm assuming that's due to the new BMS board recalibrating itself to the battery pack for now.
I'm glad to be on 2 wheels again, but Zero should seriously change how they do repairs -- it's insanity that my new bike was dead for 50% of the time I've had it. Even after diagnosing the problem it looks like it took Zero 2 weeks to send a BMS board in the mail 3 states away.
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I ordered a jacket, using "standard shipping, from the UK and it arrived at my home in CA within 5 days. :) So there are ways to mail packages quickly. ::)
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I hear ya, man. I dropped my Zero off at the dealership on June 3rd. I might get it back next week. :-\
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Exactly. I have no doubt that there are individuals at Zero HQ that go above and beyond to take care of stranded customers, but that doesn't change the fact that the rest of the company and the company's policies create situations that let their customers down (and after reading this forum for a bit, apparently frequently).
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Baffling. A company like this that sells high end niche products live and dies by customer service. The CEO of zero must have his head up his ass if he allows this kind of nonsense to be acceptable at his company.
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Baffling. A company like this that sells high end niche products live and dies by customer service. The CEO of zero must have his head up his ass if he allows this kind of nonsense to be acceptable at his company.
I don't know anything about the CEO, but the customer service folks I've talked to have been great. Though it's one thing to get a repair approved under warranty, versus a customer service agent being able to change how many parts they keep in stock and how quickly they ship, or allowing for more sane repair and diagnosis options (published service manual, more "approved" dealers/technicians) so their customers aren't stuck for a month (or in the case of my 2012 S, and also my girlfriend's old XU, many many months on end).
I agree that it's baffling, and the explanation of "oh no! high voltage!" doesn't hold water considering how many higher voltage machines have published troubleshooting/repair guides and widespread service techs.
If you leave motorcycles to the side for a moment, pretty much all heavy machinery I've seen uses 208/240VAC or even 480V, including just about every home/commercial air conditioning system, mills/lathes/CNC ... now with solar power becoming common there are tons of folks comfortable troubleshooting much higher voltage DC systems, etc.
It's preposterous. I'm currently staring at the University of Houston's Engineering building, full of 18-20 year olds working on stuff that is more powerful than what Zero thinks an experienced mechanic couldn't possibly safely follow directions and troubleshoot.
The last kid that changed out the transformer and starting capacitors on the motor for my "high voltage" air conditioner was 16 years old.
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Baffling. A company like this that sells high end niche products live and dies by customer service. The CEO of zero must have his head up his ass if he allows this kind of nonsense to be acceptable at his company.
I don't think that's a fair or accurate analysis. Just because prices are still fairly high and volumes are still fairly low doesn't mean Zero is a boutique brand by any means. We saw what happened to Mission, and I have no idea how Lightning is still hanging on. Those are the boutiques.
It's a newly developing technology (and yes, I know some of the first vehicles were electric, but the modern incarnation of the technology is still very young), and a new manufacturer. Unlike the boutiques, or some companies like Tesla, they're not backed by lots of venture capital money, so they HAVE to show a profit or they'll go under. They're doing an outstanding job with a very finite amount of resources; the worst bottleneck is probably bandwidth. They're focused on product development and price reduction, right where they should be, and if they have to rely on the dealers for customer service, that's just how it has to be.
Even the occasional Tesla, Yamaha or Lexus customer has a customer service horror story. Yeah, Zero may have more of them, and probably will until they've achieved similar status to those brands. I think they're doing pretty well, given the row that they're trying to hoe. If you don't have the stomach to be an early adopter, then stay off the bus. Meanwhile, the rest of us will assume the risks, and enjoy our machines. I've put 27,000 miles on my bike with pretty damn good reliability, and couldn't be happier with it.
See you down the road, whatever machine you choose to ride.
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Just to update, I got my bike back last Thursday, and it's been riding fine so far. The range estimator seems a bit wonky, but I'm assuming that's due to the new BMS board recalibrating itself to the battery pack for now....
I got bad range estimates after my 4000 mile service (2014 SR new old stock as of last Fall)- apparently when they updated the firmware they reset the charge count, which confused the range estimate numbers for a few charges but eventually it re-learned.
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The tail section got damaged on my DS and I watched the chap in the dealership order the new part on his computer. The part took about two weeks to get to London from the European headquarters.
Maybe it had to ship from California first, but still...
It makes no sense to me! I'm glad you're back on the road at least tico.