ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JaimeC on July 05, 2016, 12:25:01 AM
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Just came back from doing a mixture of my favorite twisties and some highway for a total of 70 miles. Plugged it back in with 28% charge remaining and (supposedly) another 30 miles of range. Didn't do a **** thing to conserve power either (other than rely on the regenerative braking where I could). 2016 Zero S with the 13 kWh battery and no power tank. Not bad at all! I think Zero was conservative with their range estimates. :)
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I feel the range estimates on the FXS are pretty much spot on.
It's possible you were averaging slower than what the estimates are derived from.
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Just came back from doing a mixture of my favorite twisties and some highway for a total of 70 miles. Plugged it back in with 28% charge remaining and (supposedly) another 30 miles of range. Didn't do a **** thing to conserve power either (other than rely on the regenerative braking where I could). 2016 Zero S with the 13 kWh battery and no power tank. Not bad at all! I think Zero was conservative with their range estimates. :)
Their range estimates are spot on .. for their exact test conditions.
They claim 108 miles of range for the 2013 S with a "combined" city / highway riding cycle.
- 50% (54 miles) highway test, at constant 70 mph .. using 2/3 of the battery
- 50% (54 miles) city test, at average 30 mph, but varying .. using 1/3 of the battery
If you spent less time on the highway, but your twisties were higher speed (45-55 mph) then the battery usage you saw is pretty consistent with Zero's estimates.
If you don't spend a lot of time on the interstates, I feel for most riders there's "enough" range now to be a non-issue.
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I tried to model range vs speed last year. Have a look here: https://ptruchon.pagekite.me/wiki/rangevsspped (https://ptruchon.pagekite.me/wiki/rangevsspped)
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I tried to model range vs speed last year. Have a look here: https://ptruchon.pagekite.me/wiki/rangevsspped (https://ptruchon.pagekite.me/wiki/rangevsspped)
Thanks for that! Very informative.
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I have had my Zero DS13 for 3 months, and have not had the same experience that I am seeing in this thread. My range seems close to the 9.8kwh version of the DS, but even then, I sometimes come up short. I do not have an in town comparison, but on the freeway at 65-70 mph in Eco mode it required recharging to make it home after 32 miles. I estimate the freeway range at 56 miles.
Several days ago I sent the following to Zero Inc (they have not responded yet):
I recently rode through town about 5 miles and out a country highway for 34 miles. The ride was steady at 55 mph except for slowing down for curves in the road and accelerating gradually back up to 55 mph. There was a net gain of 2,000 feet in elevation going out, so I figured that I was safe to make it back if I turned around at 50% power.
Although I drove with the same gentle acceleration and at slightly slower speeds on the return trip, I was down to 0% power after a total of 75 miles (68 miles highway and 7 miles in town). I was able to continue for the last 3 miles with 0% power on the display, but I still had full power for acceleration and maintaining speed for those last three miles through town.
It is possible that the reduced range going mostly down hill on the return trip was due to wind direction. In any event, my range is very close to what would be expected with a 9.8 kwh battery pack. I suggest that there is either a battery module missing or one is not connected.
I thought of one other possibility. If the on board computer calculates the remaining range based upon the energy used, it could be that the settings in the computer are for the 9.8 kwh battery back even though there is a 13.0 kwh battery pack on board. Is this possible?
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Please keep us posted. Your range is certainly lower than expected. The one time I came near 0%, I'd done about 80 highway miles at noticeably higher speeds than you. On a '15 SR, which has a slightly smaller battery than yours. At 55mph you should do better than that, even though the DS is a bit less efficient than the S...
I have had my Zero DS13 for 3 months, and have not had the same experience that I am seeing in this thread. My range seems close to the 9.8kwh version of the DS, but even then, I sometimes come up short. I do not have an in town comparison, but on the freeway at 65-70 mph in Eco mode it required recharging to make it home after 32 miles. I estimate the freeway range at 56 miles.
Several days ago I sent the following to Zero Inc (they have not responded yet):
I recently rode through town about 5 miles and out a country highway for 34 miles. The ride was steady at 55 mph except for slowing down for curves in the road and accelerating gradually back up to 55 mph. There was a net gain of 2,000 feet in elevation going out, so I figured that I was safe to make it back if I turned around at 50% power.
Although I drove with the same gentle acceleration and at slightly slower speeds on the return trip, I was down to 0% power after a total of 75 miles (68 miles highway and 7 miles in town). I was able to continue for the last 3 miles with 0% power on the display, but I still had full power for acceleration and maintaining speed for those last three miles through town.
It is possible that the reduced range going mostly down hill on the return trip was due to wind direction. In any event, my range is very close to what would be expected with a 9.8 kwh battery pack. I suggest that there is either a battery module missing or one is not connected.
I thought of one other possibility. If the on board computer calculates the remaining range based upon the energy used, it could be that the settings in the computer are for the 9.8 kwh battery back even though there is a 13.0 kwh battery pack on board. Is this possible?
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Were you going by the dash, or the app? I believe that I read somewhere that once on "E", you still had 20% to 25% battery left.
If using the app, it would probably be much closer to true capacity.
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markmaxwell
Can you share the significant digits of your VIN?
Though with 2015's the look ups are wrong on the battery size... it might help inform discussion. So don't let that make you think you've got the wrong battery in the monolith.
Also Charge times could guide to battery size, as will using the App for more precise state of Charge review.
The App has "Watts per Mile" however calculated will allow for comparative to riding style, average speed and drag.
"Eco" mode won't really impact highway driving. It reduces available torque, and tinkers with regeneration but holding at highway speed "Eco" won't matter.
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I beg to differ. Eco mode can save you on the highway as it limits your top speed. The biggest drain on your battery is prolonged high speed riding. Air drag increases geometrically as speed increases arithmetically so having Eco mode limiting your top speed to 70 mph (which, in my experience criss-crossing the country for over thirty years on ICE bikes is more than enough to keep up with traffic no matter what the posted speed limit) goes a long way to stretching out your range.
I use Eco mode as a "Poor Man's Cruise Control." Holding the throttle wide open, and you'll maintain a steady 70 mph. Even in a 55mph speed zone, I've passed police cars who don't even give you a second look.
This is especially important on a Zero because I've discovered it's REALLY easy to be going way faster than you think you are because you don't have the usual sensations of exhaust noise, engine vibration, or running through gears.
I keep my S in "Custom Mode" on surface streets (100% torque, 100% regen) but just before I enter the freeway I switch over to Eco mode (and back to Custom as I'm exiting).
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Were you going by the dash, or the app? I believe that I read somewhere that once on "E", you still had 20% to 25% battery left.
If using the app, it would probably be much closer to true capacity.
I was going by the dash. Except for setting the custom parameters, I have not found the app to be very useful. I would not have my phone out when riding and it looses the Bluetooth connection when I am more than about ten feet from the motorcycle. Perhaps this is a time that it would prove useful.
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markmaxwell
Can you share the significant digits of your VIN?
Though with 2015's the look ups are wrong on the battery size... it might help inform discussion. So don't let that make you think you've got the wrong battery in the monolith.
Also Charge times could guide to battery size, as will using the App for more precise state of Charge review.
The App has "Watts per Mile" however calculated will allow for comparative to riding style, average speed and drag.
"Eco" mode won't really impact highway driving. It reduces available torque, and tinkers with regeneration but holding at highway speed "Eco" won't matter.
Which digits are "significant"?
Charge times do seem pretty quick for 13 kwh, but I never actually timed the recharge.
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Which digits are "significant"?
Charge times do seem pretty quick for 13 kwh, but I never actually timed the recharge.
[/quote]
If you don't want to share the last 4 for privacy... that is fine.
The rest have bearing into the configuration you have.
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My ZF14.2 2014 S took about 15 hours to fully recharge the one time that I ran its battery pack down to zero. But I think that has a lot to do with the way the charger was programmed. It took about 8 hours just to get to 40%. My Kill A Watt showed a very low power input when it first started charging and also the charger tapered off a lot before it reached 100%. The charger's power draw varied from a high of about 1300 watts (I never saw the 13 amps that the charger is apparently rated at) to as low as 600 watts, as I recall. When it neared 100% the power dropped to around 250 watts. But when running the battery pack down to only 50%, it typically recharges right around 10% per hour.
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Which digits are "significant"?
Charge times do seem pretty quick for 13 kwh, but I never actually timed the recharge.
If you don't want to share the last 4 for privacy... that is fine.
The rest have bearing into the configuration you have.
[/quote]
VIN: 538SD9Z21GCB0****
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When I ran it down to 0% (according to the dash display) I plugged in to my level 2 charger, and I think it was fully charged in less than 3 hours, but I did not check it during the process.
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VIN: 538SD9Z21GCB0****
well.. the "D9" codes to "13.0"
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I had a similar experience with my 2012 Zero ZF9. I was puzzled by the range claims made here on forum, because I was getting about half of what others seemed to be ge getting.
Zero was kind enough to thoroughly check out the bike, but found nothing wrong.
The answer?
I ride year round - most folks only ride in warmer weather, but the battery chemistry that Zero uses is the most sensitive to cold weather of all of the available li-ion batteries out there. It makes sense that they use that chemistry, as it is more energy dense and works well in the warm weather when most people ride, but if you ride when the temperatures are near, or below freezing like I do - you'll see a significant drop in range.
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Mark get a Kill-a-Watt wall meter it will show you how much of a charge your getting.
They are about $20 at Walmart or Home Depot.
If your bike shows 0 battery left and you only charge up 9kW to full than something isn't right.
Your bike may not be set up for the 13kwh battery on the gauge but you may have that much range.
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Thanks oobflyer. It has only been warm where and when I have been riding 65 - 95 degrees Fahrenheit.
NEW2electric, I did not know that such a meter was available. It will help my investigation.
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Mark get a Kill-a-Watt wall meter it will show you how much of a charge your getting.
They are about $20 at Walmart or Home Depot.
If your bike shows 0 battery left and you only charge up 9kW to full than something isn't right.
Your bike may not be set up for the 13kwh battery on the gauge but you may have that much range.
Yes, that is a great idea. My initial guess is that you aren't riding in a tuck position and aren't as light a rider as the tests were done with. Just riding upright at highway speeds could be the reason for your range. If you need to go far on the highway, make sure to tuck and lay so your chest is on the tank and you will see your highway range improve.
But to test exactly empty to full capacity, run the bike down to 88-90 volts resting, you can see this through the app. Then plug the Kill A watt into the wall, reset it, and plug in the charging cord. The next day see what the kWh number says. The actual capacity plus the charger losses should equal the nominal rating used by the battery industry. So for instance if it shows about 13 kWh that is probably 11.5 of battery and 1.5 of charger heat. But anything over 9.8 will prove it's not the 3 brick.
The other way would be with an IR camera like a FLIR. Run the bike hard on the highway, charge fast, and then repeat a few times, and check battery temp with the display and try to get it as close to 50C or 120F as possible and then view the bike from the side. If the battery looks uniform as a square, it is a 4 brick 13.0.
I'm 99.99% confident you have a 13.0, but try one of the things recommended and let us know what you find out. I will not rule out that humans could have made a mistake labeling the battery or programming something, I just find it highly unlikely. Remember also the bike will go for quite a long distance after 0%, although the bike will cut back power as the voltage sag tells the controller to limit power output. But I've gone almost 20 miles at slow speed after hitting 0%. It's nice to have a built in reserve so that if you are intending to charge somewhere, and get there, and something is wrong and have to go somewhere else, that at least you can get there going slowly. If the bike was able to use every bit of energy at 80 mph, I might use it all being to confident about charging, only to get there and the charge station is blocked or broken or in use. Meaning if it lets me use it going fast, I probably will. So unless you spend quite some time travelling slower, I doubt you used all the energy in the battery. What was the voltage of your last run to "empty"? I'll bet it was 98 volts or higher. But let us know.
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...but if you ride when the temperatures are near, or below freezing like I do - you'll see a significant drop in range.
That hasn't been my experience. I ride year-round, too, and though it doesn't get TOO cold here in the San Diego area, I've ridden to work with frost on the ground. There is a definite drop in range, but it's nowhere near half. Instead of getting home in the evening with 38-40% charge left, in the winter I'll get home with maybe 32-36% charge left.
I wonder, did they change chemistries between your 2012 and my 2014?
I will not rule out that humans could have made a mistake labeling the battery or programming something, I just find it highly unlikely.
I'd have to agree, that seems like a very big mistake, and something that would be caught before it left the factory. But in my experience as an EE, the thing that always seems to fail are the connectors. I'm sure they don't use "connectors" per se in the monolith, but I'm wondering if somehow the interconnection has failed on one of the paralleled bricks?
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I don't know about chemistries, but they did change battery manufacturers between 2012 and 2103. The 2012 bikes used EIG batteries and the later bikes use Farsis (is that the right spelling?) cells. I once rode my 2012 S ZF9 100 miles on a single charge, but much of that was around 40 mph.
I think Terry is right about using the Kill-A-Watt meter. Also, what does your app say about the battery charge capacity when it is fully charged? My 2014 S, with Power Tank, consistently shows 13.34 kWh when fully charged and its battery pack is rated at 14.2 kWh.
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I have been using the Kill A Watt meters for years. My complaint with them is that they don't seem to last very long.
Screen seems to go out much too quickly. I have had better luck with a Watts UP. Same idea, but, seems to be
higher quality. More money as well, but, if I am buying 3 Kill a Watt meters to one Watts UP, it works out to be less.
Quick look on Amazon shows the entry level Kill a Watt P4400 for as little as $18 delivered ( to U.S. ).
I believe that a new Watts up entry level meter is around $100 so FIVE Kill a Watt meters to one Watts UP
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Pretty happy with my Killawatt meter, been using it for maybe 4 years now. I watched a tear-down and use video that was quite positive about its build quality and ability to work without issues at and even above its max. rated current. Forgot which model I have, but it's been pretty useful for me.
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I use them around the house, not much currant, mostly just to monitor light use. I have probably gone through over a dozen
in the last 10 years or so. I usually use the higher end P4480 model. Maybe that's the problem. I think that my longest lasting
unit is one of the cheaper ones.
Here is their website.
http://www.p3international.com/products/energy-savers.html (http://www.p3international.com/products/energy-savers.html)
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Mine is the 4460.01, FYI. I've been charging my two Vectrix scooters for 2-3 years through it, and the SR a few times, so it's seen some good currents many times. So far so good. Can't say the same for my timer, which apparently died from just sitting unused this year...
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I did a "range test" a couple weekends ago on my 2015 DS 12.5. A cold front came in between my rides.
Ride 1 - 124.5 miles, 4% remaining, average speed 40 mph, average ambient was around 80 F
Ride 2 - 128 miles, 0% remaining, average speed 40 mph, average ambient was around 65 F
These were one-way rides. Ride 1 was from home to a farmhouse with some elevation loss. Ride 2 was back home a couple days later, some elevation gain.
I was pleased with the range. Bike has 10,500 mi on odometer.
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How does weight affect range?
If my bike was twice the weight (with rider) would the range be half?
Or is the wind resistance a much bigger factor?
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How does weight affect range?
If my bike was twice the weight (with rider) would the range be half?
Or is the wind resistance a much bigger factor?
Wind resistance is a much bigger factor than weight.
Just ask Terry.
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It should be noted that what matters is the internal battery temperature, not the air temp. If the bike is garaged and warm, I expect the range you will get out of it in 80F and in 50F will be the about same - the battery tends to keep its temperature pretty good over a short hour or two ride, IMO. Now if your bike lives outdoor and its battery cools off overnight, the range will likely suffer. I have no experience with this situation as mine is always garaged
I did a "range test" a couple weekends ago on my 2015 DS 12.5. A cold front came in between my rides.
Ride 1 - 124.5 miles, 4% remaining, average speed 40 mph, average ambient was around 80 F
Ride 2 - 128 miles, 0% remaining, average speed 40 mph, average ambient was around 65 F
These were one-way rides. Ride 1 was from home to a farmhouse with some elevation loss. Ride 2 was back home a couple days later, some elevation gain.
I was pleased with the range. Bike has 10,500 mi on odometer.
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I have not purchased the kill-a-watt meter yet, so it is still a guess about how many kwh are being used while charging.
I did verify that the percentage on the app matches the percentage on the display. I used 27% on my ride this morning. It took one hour and nine minutes (1:09) to fully recharge at 240V.
The app indicated 12.064 kwh available at 100% before starting the ride, and 11.98 kwh available when it was back to 100% after charging. Isn't it supposed to be 13.0 kwh available at 100%?
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I have not purchased the kill-a-watt meter yet, so it is still a guess about how many kwh are being used while charging.
I did verify that the percentage on the app matches the percentage on the display. I used 27% on my ride this morning. It took one hour and nine minutes (1:09) to fully recharge at 240V.
The app indicated 12.064 kwh available at 100% before starting the ride, and 11.98 kwh available when it was back to 100% after charging. Isn't it supposed to be 13.0 kwh available at 100%?
No it is not. That 13.0 rating for your battery pack is a "nominal" rating and not the amount of power that the Zero BMS allows the pack to be charged to. It doesn't allow the pack to be fully charged to that nominal rating in order to protect your cells from being over or under charged, which could damage them. Your app shows exactly what you should see for a ZF 13.0 Zero. So you got what you paid for. :)
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Max rating for ZF13 is 13kWh. Nominal rating is 11.4kWh.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Our local library system circulates Killawatt meters, as do many others.
Search for "killawatt|kill-a-watt loan program" in your area.
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The app indicated 12.064 kwh available at 100% before starting the ride, and 11.98 kwh available when it was back to 100% after charging. Isn't it supposed to be 13.0 kwh available at 100%?
12 kWh usable is correct. Others with a 2016 might post their kWh too. Mine is 14 kWh with a powertank but its a 2015 which is the 12.5 monolith not 13.0.
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I have a 2013 with the 2016 battery and the highest I have seen is 12.06kwh ,average is typically 11.98kwh, my best ride was 145kms with 5percent remaining, mixed riding and hilly terrain
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OK, I probably do not have a problem with the battery. The range is still disappointing.
Has anyone added batteries carried where saddle bags would go? I do not see a product like this on the Zero website. I would like a pair of battery packs with an enclosure on top that is big enough to store cords and adapters. They should also be wired to the monolith to be integrated as part of the power supply. Two 3.3kw modules would add 50% to my range and improve my options for recharging.
I think a fairing would help, and maybe my bike needs lubrication; it does squeak a lot.
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So, we did all this wonderful analysis, but it still does not explain why the original poster, with a '16 DS 13kW battery is only getting under 60 miles range at a speed under 70 mph at warm temperatures. Provided what he wrote is correct, this is way less than the expected range... In a similar situation I would get at least another 20 miles out of my 12kW '15 SR
I have had my Zero DS13 for 3 months, and have not had the same experience that I am seeing in this thread. My range seems close to the 9.8kwh version of the DS, but even then, I sometimes come up short. I do not have an in town comparison, but on the freeway at 65-70 mph in Eco mode it required recharging to make it home after 32 miles. I estimate the freeway range at 56 miles.
Several days ago I sent the following to Zero Inc (they have not responded yet):
I recently rode through town about 5 miles and out a country highway for 34 miles. The ride was steady at 55 mph except for slowing down for curves in the road and accelerating gradually back up to 55 mph. There was a net gain of 2,000 feet in elevation going out, so I figured that I was safe to make it back if I turned around at 50% power.
Although I drove with the same gentle acceleration and at slightly slower speeds on the return trip, I was down to 0% power after a total of 75 miles (68 miles highway and 7 miles in town). I was able to continue for the last 3 miles with 0% power on the display, but I still had full power for acceleration and maintaining speed for those last three miles through town.
It is possible that the reduced range going mostly down hill on the return trip was due to wind direction. In any event, my range is very close to what would be expected with a 9.8 kwh battery pack. I suggest that there is either a battery module missing or one is not connected.
I thought of one other possibility. If the on board computer calculates the remaining range based upon the energy used, it could be that the settings in the computer are for the 9.8 kwh battery back even though there is a 13.0 kwh battery pack on board. Is this possible?
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It's true that we have no explanation for Mark, and it's baffling.
A couple of thoughts just in case Mark or someone can make sense of them:
- 2000 ft elevation change is something, but I don't think we know how much of a factor offhand it should represent. And it's not clear that that is a strong factor - his range apparently suffers without it.
- Dash indications is an interesting mention. I know that Wh/mi readings are typically ~15% below what a gross measure indicates (taking percent capacity change and dividing by miles over a longer course), but that does not account for the discrepancy.
- Winds can be a big factor if they're strong enough and the rider does not crouch/tuck. Mark lists himself as in Temecula, CA which is south of Los Angeles. I don't know whether the winds are a factor right now but Santa Ana winds are infamous: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_winds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_winds)
I know from experience that range can drop off precipitously if heading into 30mph winds with gusts. Once, heading north on 101 in the central valley in the mid-afternoon when the daily wind is strongest, I had an effective range of 60 miles or so if I'd stayed at 60mph, so I slowed down for that to conserve my charge.
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Perhaps one of the brakes is dragging due to a caliper piston that is not retracting?
(BTW, my 2014 S ZF14.2 shows 13.34 kWh on the app when fully charged.)
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I commute to work, 20 miles total, 17.5 miles on the freeway at full speed as much as possible. So when I get back home every day after 40 miles, I have 10% to 20% depending on how much traffic I encounter. I always go full throttle, and at about the half to 3/4 distance the power is reduced but I can still go 84-90 MPH because I'm always in a tuck. So I have about 44 to 50 miles range, but this is worst case. I have followed trucks at 55 MPH and noticed the % going down very slow, maybe 100 to 200 miles range.
Is it safe for the battery to drive past 0%? In my i-MiEV when I hit zero bars (0%) it goes into turtle mode and there is 10 miles range left going less than 55 MPH.
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Is it safe for the battery to drive past 0%?
You own a 2014 - probably not too safe to do this regularly, given the type of cells and problems people have reported with power loss at low SoC due to cell imbalance. At the very least, I'm sure you plug it in immediately when you get home, which would be good to keep the cells from sitting in that state for too long. 80%-20% is the SoC range that puts less stress on the battery over time.
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Is it safe for the battery to drive past 0%?
You own a 2014 - probably not too safe to do this regularly, given the type of cells and problems people have reported with power loss at low SoC due to cell imbalance. At the very least, I'm sure you plug it in immediately when you get home, which would be good to keep the cells from sitting in that state for too long. 80%-20% is the SoC range that puts less stress on the battery over time.
I ran my 2014 S, with PT, down to 0% once. Just a soon as it said 0% the bike completely stopped and I could only get it to move about 100 feet at a time by turning off the ignition and let it sit for a minute for the voltage to rise a bit, before turning the ignition on again and traveling another 100 feet. Fortunately that got me up the hill to my home. So my recommendation is that if you have a 2014 model, you probably don't want to run your battery pack down that far. :( Zero means zero. ;)
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I was told most electric cars actually have 20% charge left when they read zero. This is to protect the cells from running completely down causing a condition where the battery might catch fire when charging. Is this the same for Zero?
In any event, repeatedly running the bike down to an indicated 0% doesn't seem like a good idea to me. These aren't NiCad batteries (where it WAS a good idea to run them completely down before charging).
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I was told most electric cars actually have 20% charge left when they read zero. This is to protect the cells from running completely down causing a condition where the battery might catch fire when charging. Is this the same for Zero?
In any event, repeatedly running the bike down to an indicated 0% doesn't seem like a good idea to me. These aren't NiCad batteries (where it WAS a good idea to run them completely down before charging).
Yes, Zero essentially makes a 0-100% SoC range out of 20-80% range of what the cells can take, which eases the chemistry strain over the lifetime.
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OK, I probably do not have a problem with the battery. The range is still disappointing.
I was reminded in another discussion of something to check: the voltage range reported by your mobile app while the SoC percentage is reported at the maximum you can get and another data point at or below 20%. At 100% in stable condition, your app should report 116V from the battery. This is really what the 0-100% range is calibrated for. The minimum is something more like 92V (guessing from the Farasis data sheet).
If the range didn't match, well, I guess it'd be worth bringing it up just in case it's important.
Also check the maximum cell voltage differential just in case.
I've written this up: http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#State_of_Charge (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#State_of_Charge)
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Has anyone added batteries carried where saddle bags would go? I do not see a product like this on the Zero website. I would like a pair of battery packs with an enclosure on top that is big enough to store cords and adapters. They should also be wired to the monolith to be integrated as part of the power supply. Two 3.3kw modules would add 50% to my range and improve my options fro recharging.
There's the Power Tank, but it weighs 45 lbs, and the luggage rack is definitely not rated for this and the motorcycle would handle very badly on the side mounts.
Additional batteries would not improve your recharging options - charging rate is determined by what charger is available, so without a better charger, your charging time just gets longer exactly in proportion to your capacity. Except for the 1C-rate limit which would increase if you had a powerful enough set of chargers.
I think a fairing would help, and maybe my bike needs lubrication; it does squeak a lot.
A windscreen will help for sure: I'd expect 10-15% benefit from the OEM Touring Screen or one of the larger screens some of us members have custom installed and tuned.
Your bike squeaks? How many miles does it have? Maybe your bearings are going; if they are hot to the touch after an aggressive ride, they might explain range loss but maybe not enough.
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I did a range experiment this weekend going from Pasadena, CA to Palm Springs, CA, about 110 miles each way, on a base 2016 Zero SR. Outbound and at night the cooler weather and wind took a toll on range. I was on ECO mode the whole time. I was down to 74% at Upland and stopped for a while to charge up to about 85%, then stopped again at Morongo at 15%, charged up to 25%, and made it into downtown PS at 0% with it still running ok at low speed until I got it to a charger.
On the way back in the daytime, it was still windy and started with 100% but only made it to Fontana before it was at 0% again. Charged up to 44% and kept going again but it slowed down to 40mph on the freeway at 5% on a slight hill coming up to Irwindale and had to stop again to charge. With less than 10 miles to home, I only charged to 12% and hoped that would make it home, but it again slowed down when it got to 5% so I got off the freeway and went on side streets to get almost home, at that point going 15mph at 2% left, then it just stopped and the green light was blinking. I had to push it 4 blocks to get home but I made it. It is light and not hard to push, but now I know what happens when it goes dead and about how much % is needed to get somewhere.
It does seem that I'm getting less range than advertised. Normally I just use this in town in custom mode (fast) without range issues, but I was expecting it to go further on a full charge.
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I did a range experiment this weekend going from Pasadena, CA to Palm Springs, CA, about 110 miles each way, on a base 2016 Zero SR. Outbound and at night the cooler weather and wind took a toll on range. I was on ECO mode the whole time. I was down to 74% at Upland and stopped for a while to charge up to about 85%, then stopped again at Morongo at 15%, charged up to 25%, and made it into downtown PS at 0% with it still running ok at low speed until I got it to a charger.
On the way back in the daytime, it was still windy and started with 100% but only made it to Fontana before it was at 0% again. Charged up to 44% and kept going again but it slowed down to 40mph on the freeway at 5% on a slight hill coming up to Irwindale and had to stop again to charge. With less than 10 miles to home, I only charged to 12% and hoped that would make it home, but it again slowed down when it got to 5% so I got off the freeway and went on side streets to get almost home, at that point going 15mph at 2% left, then it just stopped and the green light was blinking. I had to push it 4 blocks to get home but I made it. It is light and not hard to push, but now I know what happens when it goes dead and about how much % is needed to get somewhere.
It does seem that I'm getting less range than advertised. Normally I just use this in town in custom mode (fast) without range issues, but I was expecting it to go further on a full charge.
Advertised highway range numbers are performed with the rider in a full tuck (like you see all racers ride on TV). So if you ride on the highway fully upright, or halfway, or only in a tuck part of the time, your range numbers might be 15-30% less depending on your preferred riding position. To get the best range, lay down flat on the plastic tank. Before I got my dog, I used to slide back on the passenger seat, put my feet on the passenger pegs, and rest the chin of my helmet in the space between the handlebars and the tank to get as low as possible. But for long distance riding, unless you like a racer who can sit like this for hours, this can be a little uncomfortable for some. I didn't mind the position for long rides, but I couldn't see my mirrors and so preferred to ride upright for that reason. Now I carry a dog on my tank (www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog (http://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog)) so just decided to use fast charging to be able to do long distance days. Some days 500 miles or more.
For instance in Upland you could charge to full in about 20 minutes. Visit Hollywood Electrics in West Hollywood and ask them about fast charging options. If you live in Pasadena you have about 4500 fast charge locations within 100 mile radius of you. But to use them you need the level 2 electric car charging socket called the J1772. Hollywood Electrics can get you everything you need and you'll never have to "push it" to 0% ever again lol. Just plug in and fast charge.
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For instance in Upland you could charge to full in about 20 minutes.
???
Using what? Even with the Charge Tank it would probably take 1-2 hours to charge at Level 2, wouldn't it? I have the adapter to use the Level 2 charging cord on the regular side port but of course that doesn't increase charging speed at all, so 20 minutes gets me about 4% charge.
And I was in the full tucked position on most of that trip. But that's a hard trip with lots of wind and elevation changes so I didn't expect to get maximum range in any case on that route.
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For instance in Upland you could charge to full in about 20 minutes.
Using what? Even with the Charge Tank it would probably take 1-2 hours to charge at Level 2, wouldn't it?...
An 11kW/hour battery system rated for 5 Constant (5C) rate of charge would safely take on 55kW and be done charging in about 15 minutes to 85% state of charge; Provided you had a source of power (Upland has this much power?) and the charging electronics (Hollywood Electrics offers this?), and further your pack could safely dissipate the rise in heat from the process.
Did I infer that correctly?
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bikerscooby said his first charge stop was in Upland from Pasadena. About 30 miles away. If he had a supercharger, and used the onboard, to charge at about 11 kW he could charge back to almost full (where it was reducing current where it doesn't make sense to wait any longer) in 20 minutes or actually a little less. maybe 18 1/2 minutes.
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For instance in Upland you could charge to full in about 20 minutes.
Using what? Even with the Charge Tank it would probably take 1-2 hours to charge at Level 2, wouldn't it?...
An 11kW/hour battery system rated for 5 Constant (5C) rate of charge would safely take on 55kW and be done charging in about 15 minutes to 85% state of charge; Provided you had a source of power (Upland has this much power?) and the charging electronics (Hollywood Electrics offers this?), and further your pack could safely dissipate the rise in heat from the process.
Did I infer that correctly?
Well you are assuming there is a supercharger available for the 2016 Zero SR, which is not really true except for some experimental DigiNow units that aren't being sold now and maybe some other extremely expensive and heavy homemade rigs. Even with those, I don't know of a setup or a charging station that would provide 55kW in 15 minutes to a Zero, unless you have something that works with those Tesla stations (do tell!).
I stopped at Hollywood Electrics yesterday and they have 2 options... the Charge Tank and the external charger (or 2), which would help a lot but even with those it would take over an hour to get from 5% to 80% after riding from (for example) Palm Springs to Fontana (that's as far as I made it last time on the way back).
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I have not looked at this topic for a while. Just thought I would mention my latest range focused adventure. I rode 43 miles to Paradise Valley Cafe near Anza, California. It was some state highways at 55mph and some mountain twisties. the wind was mostly at my back going up in elevation about 3,000 feet. I intended to recharge while I had lunch at the cafe. There would only be a wall outlet and I would need to carry charge cords in a back pack for any other options, so I did not bring anything other than a 10' 14AWG 110v power cord. (I recently purchased it on Amazon for $10.72) It fits nicely in the tube where the swing arm pivots on my 2016 DS13. Unfortunately the restaurant was closed. I could not refuel myself or the motorcycle. The battery was right at 50%, and my experience has been that headwinds suck more power than hills. I stopped at a Chevron station, and they agreed to let me plug in while I had a cup of coffee and a snack. It took about a half hour to build back to 50% from the 46% I was at. [Luckily I enjoyed a conversation with three Brits on Triumphs who were spending four months traveling from NYC to Miami via Seattle and San Diego.] I did take a slower back road home and was at 10% power when I arrived. That was 50% in 43 miles going out, and 44% in 47 miles heading back. The difference in speed explains the difference in range, but going slow is dangerous!
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Another data point from today on my '15 SR without power tank, with large windscreen, so no tucking at all, which I think is worse at these speeds than no windscreen with full tucking. Was pretty windy, with headwinds for part of the trip, maybe 10-15 miles of it, so that decreased range noticeably during that leg of the trip. I'm 200lb before gear, and with cool weather gear and helmet today, plus large 55L Maxia case with 15lb in it, the bike was probably carrying 230lb at least. Plus I'm tall at 6'4" with size 15 boots, so offer some extra resistance even with a windscreen... Temp was 50F in the morning, 60F on the return, battery was probably at 60-70F when I started the trip.
Drove 62 miles, let's say at a minimum 55 of them highway-only, pretty much all the time between 65mph and 80mph with frequent but not constant brisk acceleration for passing. Hard to tell the "average" speed, but seemed like 75mph was what I was seeing most of the time.
Started with 100%, just unplugged after overnight charging, ended with 10% on display and in the app. It was a round-trip, with 3 hours break half-way through, but without recharging.
I think this is consistent with the "official" range estimates from Zero.
I noticed reduced power and limited speed down to similar to Eco mode levels around 14% SoC.
And 7-10mv difference b/w cells immediately after the trip, before I shut the bike down.
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Few days back I emptied the zf13 battery of my DSR by doing my commute at 130km/h whenever possible on the way in, and by going a few extra km's at 130km/h on the way back. Trip distance came in at 126km, temps where in the 10C range both ways, started at 100% SOC and ended up with 0% SOC. The bike started slowing down at around 6% SOC, but still went to 130km/h up to 2% SOC, after which my highway leg ended. I rode about 5km's through urban area at speeds varying between 70km/h and 30km/h, emptying the last 2%.
Funny though that although the battery said 0%, the range estimating still gave me 5 km's ;)
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What strikes me about it though is that the average comes at 75Wh/km, and with 12064Wh in the battery that amounts to 160km range?
(http://mijnzero.nl/odometer.jpg)
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Few days back I emptied the zf13 battery of my DSR by doing my commute at 130km/h whenever possible on the way in, and by going a few extra km's at 130km/h on the way back. Trip distance came in at 126km, temps where in the 10C range both ways, started at 100% SOC and ended up with 0% SOC. The bike started slowing down at around 6% SOC, but still went to 130km/h up to 2% SOC, after which my highway leg ended. I rode about 5km's through urban area at speeds varying between 70km/h and 30km/h, emptying the last 2%.
Funny though that although the battery said 0%, the range estimating still gave me 5 km's ;)
What strikes me about it though is that the average comes at 75Wh/km, and with 12064Wh in the battery that amounts to 160km range?
This adds up to me; after doing unit conversion, I see that you basically got 80 miles of range by running at 80mph "whenever possible" which is hard to interpret.
FWIW the Wh/mi or Wh/km readings are about typically low by 10-20%, and I'm trying to understand that deviation. It seems that more even-handed use of the throttle reduces the deviation, at least, and I think the rest has to do with how the calculations are made from measurements for each indication. In any case, if you did use that rate (real instead of indicated), you would definitely get 100 miles per charge, which is something I've accomplished a number of times (with aero windscreen tuning and throttle control).
My best range on a DSR was about 115 miles projected; I still need to try a marathon slow day ride to get the "city" range or perhaps better.
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A saw an older video from Energica where they talk about their BMS calculated voltage like every second so it was supposed to give the rider the best SOC reading and range estimate possible. That comes with the $38000 price. :)
Oh and by the way Skids where did you get your bypass pin tag key fob?
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The key fob is for a Dutch charging provider called The New Motion... not the cheapest but good coverage and this way i can't forget to take it ;)
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After work in Truckee with a full charge today I went to a Costco warehouse store in Reno and then back down to Kings Beach:
(https://s14.postimg.org/nkkxt0std/Screenshot_from_2016_11_05_16_54_15.jpg)
(https://s14.postimg.org/6u9k3oue9/IMG_20161105_161733.jpg) (https://s14.postimg.org/arwtt3h7l/IMG_20161105_162619.jpg)
Today's haul was 4kg pasta, 7.6kg sauce, 4.53kg oatmeal, all totaling 16.13kg (35+1/2 lbs). I'm a 5'10" long 180lbs rider. The tires are at 40psi. I did not tuck or do anything special just custom mode disable regen unless using brakes, and top speed limited to 65mph which I tried to keep to 55mph.
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90 miles on that route on one charge and then 19% left? Wow. Keeping the speed below 65 mph must be the main factor. My 2016 SR was similarly loaded on my range test trip in ECO mode but I had throttle to the max the whole time (70 mph) and range was more like 65 miles from 100% to 2% (that was Palm Springs to Fontana).
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For science!
Just went on a ride to see the range at Dutch highway speeds. 4,5 km to the highway, 120km/h until 50%, take exit, ride back exact same route at approximately same speed. I took my Oregon 600 with me to log the route and speeds, and had the GoPro aimed at the clockwork to record a video of the ride's dynamics.
Took me 59 minutes to empty the bike to 0%, which was at the highway exit I need to take to get home so the last 4,5km were a bit tight, but made it home without pushing ;)
I'll upload the video and a GPX/KML file for the statistics and work out how much I actually used on this trip. Furthermore, I just started the charge so I can see through my kWh meter device how much AC goes in with only 3,7km remaining on the battery ;)
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100% SoC 2016 DSR ZF13.0:
59.6mi 70% SoC
(https://s17.postimg.org/ryrmmdhf3/IMG_20161110_015813.jpg)
100.1mi 50% SoC
(https://s17.postimg.org/w6mev4iun/IMG_20161110_032620.jpg)
169.1mi 02% SoC
(https://s17.postimg.org/jdyav778v/IMG_20161110_052849.jpg)
Route is Kings Beach CA to Fairfield CA, a drop in elevatiin of several thousand feet.
Average speed 40-45mph except when crazy Sacramento trucknutz drivers ran me off the slow lane aggressively. Most drivers had no such mental defect to just use one of the wide open fast lanes.
On a mission returning Elcon 2500 charging setup to @BrianTRice what he lended to me. Thanks!
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As promised, the data:
Zero DSR ZF13 Range test #1: Ambient temp 5 degrees C, SOC at departure: 100%, SOC at arrival: 0%, duration: 59 minutes, Start kWh 12.064, end kWh 0.384, distance travelled 84.2km, altitude gained 210m, altitude lost 210m
Video of the ride, camera on the dash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KYSp303FoI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KYSp303FoI&feature=youtu.be)
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@Skidz what settings or is that sport mode?
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@Skidz what settings or is that sport mode?
Custom mode, 100% torque, 100% power, 40%/100% regen
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I've found that I can dramatically increase my range by 'drafting' behind a big semi-truck. On long rides sometimes I just stay a few car-lengths behind a truck which increases my range by about 40%. That's no exaggeration - usually I use about 1%/mile on my '15 SR (with PowerTank) on the freeway, so a 50 mile ride uses about 50% of the battery. When I'm behind a truck I can make the same run on only 30% (70% remaining after riding 50 miles).
However I DO NOT recommend this technique. ;-)
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Patrick Truchon
I tried to model range vs speed last year. Have a look here: https://ptruchon.pagekite.me/wiki/rangevsspped
Amazing amount of science and math.
I'm guessing you did this as a thesis for your master's degree in engineering?
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The Mythbusters covered that pretty well. They found that the real gain is in following VERY close, enough to be truly dangerous.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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But a car already has a proper streamlining, a naked bike not. There is a significant wake behind a truck:
(https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/programs/aerodynamics_eng_fig23.jpg)
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But a car already has a proper streamlining, a naked bike not. There is a significant wake behind a truck:
(https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/programs/aerodynamics_eng_fig23.jpg)
Those pretty colors represent not calm air space but turbulence, comparing rigs with different devices meant to eliminate it. Looks to me like the nice clear spot is in the first 250m behind the trailer.
Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
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What you really want to do is get close enough to hold on to the back of the truck and touch the back brake just enough to get some regenerative braking happening. ;-)
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What you really want to do is get close enough to hold on to the back of the truck and touch the back brake just enough to get some regenerative braking happening. ;-)
I just lasso on to their hitch ;D
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I managed to keep the consumption below 45Wh/km when driving behind sufficiently inefficient cars on the highway ;)
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As promised, the data:
Zero DSR ZF13 Range test #1: Ambient temp 5 degrees C, SOC at departure: 100%, SOC at arrival: 0%, duration: 59 minutes, Start kWh 12.064, end kWh 0.384, distance travelled 84.2km, altitude gained 210m, altitude lost 210m
Video of the ride, camera on the dash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KYSp303FoI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KYSp303FoI&feature=youtu.be)
Thank you for the video!
it makes me wonder someting about the dash value:
with an average trip near 91 wh/km you should have consummed 91*84.2 = 7,662 KW right?
But your real consumption seems to be near 11.7kwh
is the value "calculated" by the bms incredibly optimistic or am i wrong somewhere ?
is it really a measurement or just an approximation that is calculated?
I also have a zero s 13 and see the exact same behavior... an underestimated consumption related to the range.
it wasnt a concern for me before.
But since my commute increased to 130/150 km per day it becomes one to have a reliable indicator this winter to adapt my speed if i cant charge at work
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> ... with an average trip near 91 wh/km you should have consummed 91*84.2 = 7,662 KW right?
> But your real consumption seems to be near 11.7kwh
I'm told the current measurement components are much improved on the newer models, and that the ones around 13-15 don't measure as well. I've been frustrated trying to gauge the efficiency of my aero experiments during normal commute trips using the dash gauge value, and pretty much resigned my self to the need for back-and-forth testing with external measurement. ScanGauge devices can be added for much improved accuracy- it's on my to-do list, and I think I have all the components needed to do it on my 14SR.