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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Doug S on July 23, 2016, 09:45:17 PM
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Here's my Diginow charger, fresh out of the box. The boyz said it's okay with them if I document the process here, so I'm going to do that. If anybody wants to re-post on the Facebook site, have at it. I don't do sociable media myself.
The input cabling is on the left; it consists of a J1772 connector, a fairly long cable with a protective shroud (which apparently has an embedded pilot signal generator in it), and a high-power Anderson connector and a ground lug at the other end, for connection to the charger and (presumably) a frame bolt. The J1772 isn't going to be very friendly with the Zero charge tank housing, so I'm going to have to get a little creative there...but it should be doable. I'm an EE, not a mechanical guy, but I'm not completely incompetent with the mechanical stuff. I'd prefer a shorter cable, but I'm not going to shorten it. I don't have the crimper for these giant crimp terminals, and I'd much rather rely on the crimp connections Diginow made. They obviously made the cable a bit longer so there's some mounting flexibility for things...people putting their chargers in different locations will appreciate that.
The output cabling is pretty simple; a high-power Anderson connector and a smaller waterproof connector connect to the charger output and the control module, respectively, on the input side. The signal wires are clearly intended to interface with the MBB on the bike to throw the main contactor for the charging cycle. On the output end, the standard Anderson connector will be plugged into the Zero external charge connector, but to allow for snaking the cable through the frame to get there, the connector crimp terminals haven't been installed into the housing. The individual wires will be routed where they need to run, then the terminals installed into the housing before plugging into the Zero connector. The one marking I can see is pretty smudged, but the high-power cabling seems to be 6 AWG silicone wiring, both on the input and output sides of the charger. Nice.
There wasn't any mounting hardware included, however, and I'm waiting for the guys to respond to my email about that. We discussed the mounting hardware, so I'm sure there was supposed to be some included. I have all sorts of ideas running through my head for mounting the controller, but I want to do it the way the Diginow guys intended.
Also not in the box were the 14-50 and CHAdeMO adapters I ordered. I'd be surprised if the CHAdeMO adapter even exists yet, so I'm not concerned about that, but I do plan on using the 14-50 a lot, perhaps more than the J1772. I know that adapter exists because they showed it to me. I'll want that soon.
I'm eager to get working on it, but I want to wait to clear up the mounting issue first. As much as I want it done fast, I'm even more determined to get it done right.
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Here's my Diginow charger, fresh out of the box.
I admit I'm jealous but Brandon sent me an email last night asking about shipping so that combined with the fact that you have yours should mean that I just have a little bit longer to wait...patience grasshopper ;D
If anybody wants to re-post on the Facebook site, have at it. I don't do sociable media myself.
I don't do Facebook either but... I hate to break it to you but you just posted to a social media site. A social media site dedicated to like minded individuals with a common bond of electric motorcycles...but a social media site non the less. I'm not on FB because I don't like many of their business practices but I also don't think it works as a site because of the fact that it doesn't have that common bond that a site like this one does. I much prefer going to an Android website to talk to people about Android stuff and an electric motorcycle website to talk about electric motorcycle stuff. But I digress...back to the electric motorcycle stuff!
The J1772 isn't going to be very friendly with the Zero charge tank housing, so I'm going to have to get a little creative there...but it should be doable. I'm an EE, not a mechanical guy, but I'm not completely incompetent with the mechanical stuff.
Hmmm...too bad. The Charge Tank without the charger doesn't have the J-plug and the DigiNow isn't plug and play with the Charge Tank plastic. Too bad but if it can be made to work I will still be interested to see your final solution. I still haven't decided how I'm going to set mine up...if I want a permanent install or if I will put it in a top box and only bring it along for trips I think it will be used.
Also not in the box were the 14-50 and CHAdeMO adapters I ordered. I'd be surprised if the CHAdeMO adapter even exists yet, so I'm not concerned about that, but I do plan on using the 14-50 a lot, perhaps more than the J1772. I know that adapter exists because they showed it to me. I'll want that soon.
:( Too bad about the 14-50. I'm sure they will get it to you ASAP. I convinced my landlord to install a 14-50 in my garage so I am planning to use that a lot!
I didn't even know you could order the CHAdeMO yet. I know they said from day 1 that it was planned but I didn't know they were taking orders. I do want a CHAdeMO but I should be able to get by just fine without it just with the J-plug and 14-50 for a while. I don't have any fast charging right now so this is going to be a huge upgrade already. I was told they still need more testing to get the DC charging to work so I will wait until they get it working and they are shipping the adapters but then I will probably order one...If you are planning to do any touring (and I am) then having the flexibility to use as many different charge options as possible is a good thing. To that end I would really like a CCS adapter too...eventually.
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The 14-50 omission definitely seems like a momentary oversight.
Your description is very accurate. I don't know the current story about mounting hardware; I've tested a revision for the tank mount that works very simply but had issues with DS vs S plastics internal clearances.
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Great to see! I'm told mine will be shipped around Aug 19th. Were there any written instructions you could share with us?
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Were there any written instructions you could share with us?
So far no, no instructions. But Brandon also said he'd be sending me the app, so maybe he'll send that at the same time.
I'm looking at the housing trying to figure out how to to mount the J-plug, and it's not going to be trivial because the housing is curved in two dimensions. A flat plate isn't going to do it.
Looking at the underside of the housing, you can see that it's made of three pieces, staked together. It doesn't seem to me that it would be TOO difficult for some bright ME with the right resources to scan the center piece, modify it slightly to accommodate the connector Diginow is supplying, and stake it to the two stock side pieces. Seems like it would be cheaper than a whole new set of plastics.
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Oh, that's interesting mount hardware!
FWIW I joined a centerpiece from some powertank plastics to my stock DSR plastics for the install. I documented the general idea on the wiki - basically use a soldering iron to de-weld the plastic around the lock washers, or carefully use a pair of pliers to twist until they break off.
This was very handy because they were iterating and testing a lot and it was handy to be able to pull the centerpiece off quickly to check everything without taking off the entire tank. I used it road-side.
I've sent you a copy of the documentation for your usage and review.
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Thanks, Brian, I got it and it does explain a few things.
The stock charge tank housing is really a beautiful piece and I kinda hate taking an axe to it, especially a virgin piece that never did get used for its intended purpose. But if you want to make an omelet, you gotta crack a few eggs.
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I hate dremeling plastic; it's soft and melts at a low temp, so you have to run the tool at high speed and advance it very slowly, or you'll turn everything into a gooey mess that jams the tool and stinks like hell. Then you have to trim everything with a sharp knife because it leaves hangers everywhere. At least it doesn't throw a bazillion microscopic chips like some materials do.
But that mounting boss for the Zero connector doesn't work with the Diginow-supplied connector, so it's going to have to go. I'll figure out how to replace it with a piece that works for the Diginow connector soon enough.
I think it turned out okay. This molding is quite thick around the pivot bolt, but it just takes a little longer through there.
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Congrats and good luck with the install!
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I have invoice number 11 and I also believe I am the last one in the DigiNow list. So it looks like I am going to have to wait until after August 19th to get my hands on my super charger. At least I will be able to learn from everyone install experiences before hand. When first ordered it I was not yet aware of this forum and I sill refuse to join Facebook. So for I while there I was thinking I spent a lot of money on Vaporware.
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Sorry, wrong thread. Deleted post.
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I hate dremeling plastic; it's soft and melts at a low temp, so you have to run the tool at high speed and advance it very slowly, or you'll turn everything into a gooey mess that jams the tool and stinks like hell. Then you have to trim everything with a sharp knife because it leaves hangers everywhere. At least it doesn't throw a bazillion microscopic chips like some materials do.
But that mounting boss for the Zero connector doesn't work with the Diginow-supplied connector, so it's going to have to go. I'll figure out how to replace it with a piece that works for the Diginow connector soon enough.
I think it turned out okay. This molding is quite thick around the pivot bolt, but it just takes a little longer through there.
i have "modified" countless pieces of moto plastic over the years. i use the large, metal cutting wheel on the dremel, then get out my pencil torch, and use it to smooth out the edges. if you are careful and plan your cuts well, you can make the edge look almost factory. only someone who knew the original would know that it had been modified. i highly recommend the torch or a heat gun if possible (ie- the plastic is off the bike or in some place where excessive heat isn't going to damage other parts on the bike). just start with low heat, work slowly, it will make that look a lot cleaner.
laters,
laramie ;)
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I hate dremeling plastic; it's soft and melts at a low temp, so you have to run the tool at high speed and advance it very slowly, or you'll turn everything into a gooey mess that jams the tool and stinks like hell. Then you have to trim everything with a sharp knife because it leaves hangers everywhere. At least it doesn't throw a bazillion microscopic chips like some materials do.
But that mounting boss for the Zero connector doesn't work with the Diginow-supplied connector, so it's going to have to go. I'll figure out how to replace it with a piece that works for the Diginow connector soon enough.
I think it turned out okay. This molding is quite thick around the pivot bolt, but it just takes a little longer through there.
i have "modified" countless pieces of moto plastic over the years. i use the large, metal cutting wheel on the dremel, then get out my pencil torch, and use it to smooth out the edges. if you are careful and plan your cuts well, you can make the edge look almost factory. only someone who knew the original would know that it had been modified. i highly recommend the torch or a heat gun if possible (ie- the plastic is off the bike or in some place where excessive heat isn't going to damage other parts on the bike). just start with low heat, work slowly, it will make that look a lot cleaner.
laters,
laramie ;)
good tips, I use the heatgun and a propane torch to clean up the edges of plastic too.
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After the busy weekend, time to get back to work!
I've fire-polished plastics, too, but it's not worth bothering with this time. It's all going to get covered up anyhow. Fire-polishing works on plain glass too, but not if it's been heat-treated or anything.
So when I was planning to roll my own charger, I bought TusconEV's J1772 box, which has a connector in a tiny little NEMA-approved box, with a pilot generating circuit and a momentary switch attached. I have no use for the box any longer, but I have plans for the plastic lid! The connector appears to be identical to the one supplied by Diginow, except for the name embossed on it, so I'm going to make a bracket out of it to mount the Diginow connector.
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So I took the components off of the lid, trimmed it up, tacked it in place with hot glue, and fiberglassed over it. This is just the first application, to give it some strength so I can work on it harder. Tomorrow, when it's fully cured, I'll trim, fill the underside with bondo and glass it over, and do another layup over the top. Should be good to go then.
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I'd love to see some reports of how quick the charge comes in on 1772!!!
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J1772 plugs typically deliver about 6.6kW of power, so the supercharger will provide 6.6kW with most EV charging stations (aka EVSEs). That will charge a Zero SR with power tank in 1:45 or 2hrs.
What is really fun is seeing it on a NEMA 14-50 or high powered J1772! By hen you get 8-10kW and the time goes down to about 45 minutes!
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Tonight's work, trimming, filling and glassing the bottom side. I wouldn't have posted, but I wanted to say that you should NOT do all of this! Brandon told me last night and he and Harlan have figured out how to mount the Diginow connector in the Zero charge tank housing. I love being proved wrong, it means someone proved something.
So it can be done. Brandon says they needed to trim a boss or something off the connector, but it did fit. I'm committed to my approach now but you should follow their lead instead of mine. Of course, it would have been nice to know three days ago, but at least you guys now know.
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More Choices the better. Looking forward to your solution.
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The bracket has arrived! My kit is now complete. Unfortunately, I won't have any time to work on it this evening or the next couple. I'm anxious to get to the good stuff, actually installing the charger, and I know you're all anxious to see it, too. But I should have plenty of time this weekend to get lots of pictures and thoroughly document the whole process.
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Well, I got back in town too late today to get to the fun stuff. But at least I did get the J1772 mounted up, after making sure to caulk well. I don't know about you guys, but I always like to use Loctite blue on my motorcycle screws and bolts. Seems like a pretty high-vibe environment to me.
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Ah... did you glass the top of the tank? Not enough context to tell for sure but it looks like the connector was installed to the inside of the tank pictured previously. Interesting to follow the progress.
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Ah... did you glass the top of the tank? Not enough context to tell for sure but it looks like the connector was installed to the inside of the tank pictured previously. Interesting to follow the progress.
I did glass it to the top of the tank. I'll get an overall picture soon to make it clearer.
Brandon sent me a pic of what he and Harlan did to get the connector mounted in the Zero housing. You can see on the side of the connector where they had to shave off some plastic to get it to work...he said it took them two hours, almost as long as my way took me!
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I'm waiting for some gorilla glue to set up, so I thought I'd post some pics of my adventures so far today.
First step is stripping the "gas tank" housing off, which I'm sure most of us have done at least once. Notice those two screw holes near the steering head? That's where the helmet lock mounts....with screws coming from UNDER the frame, almost impossible to reach. But I want to relocate the helmet lock, so I had to get it off. It might interfere with the new plastics, anyhow, so it might have had to come off in any case.
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Is it just me or does it look a little sad that it's not going back on?
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The ends of the J-bolts that hold the mounting bracket in place slip into two holes in the frame, which Zero clearly intended to mount the power tank battery with. The other end then passes through the bracket and is secured with a nylon-bushed lock nut. Very simple, should be very secure.
On the extreme right side of the picture, near the middle, is the connector that goes to the controller, which will mount later. You may notice the brown wire, which seems to have broken off...but I don't think it has. There's no terminal installed in the housing in the last position, and there's no mating terminal on the other side of the connector. I'm pretty sure this wire is simply not used. I wish they'd indicate that somehow, though, it's annoying to only be 95% sure.
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On the other side, there's a gap, through which the input power cables will pass. They're wrapped in a very tough-looking sleeve, but I still don't like sharp edges anywhere near my power cables, so I wrapped the bracket with several layers of electrical tape just in case. It'll help keep chafing down to a bare minimum.
Due to the gap in the bracket, the J-bolt nut on this side doesn't "bottom out" as well as on the other side. Don't over-tighten it or you'll wind up bending the bracket.
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I'm sure there are many ways to route the high-power cables to the bike's external charge connector, but here's what I came up with. As mentioned earlier, there's not much space around here, so the connector terminals aren't inserted into the connector housing. You route the wires (I'd advise taping the ends together for snaking), then install their terminals into the connector before plugging it into the bike's charge connector. Getting the power cables into the right places in the connector is pretty easy, since it's marked "+" and "-", which are the red and black wires, respectively, but the smaller signal wire (which is the one that closes the contactor) can install in four different places, only one of which is correct. Brandon's described it to me, so I'll take pictures of which position is correct.
At the charger end of the cable, everything's already pre-made, so you just plug the two connectors together. It seemed there was more room to run things on the left-hand side of the bike, so this is where I routed the wires and here's where the connectors wound up. Zero has thoughtfully already put in some anti-chafing inserts around the frame parts.
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The input connector installs into the "gas tank" housing, and immediately I see one advantage of Zero's way of mounting the connector. Mounting from the underside, you can remove the housing, where my connector mounts on the top side, so I'll have to remove the cable with the housing whenever I want to remove the housing. I don't think that's such a big deal though.
You can see that one side of the connector has two small-signal wires in the center, which are presumably the signal to the J1772 station that indicates a vehicle is attached and ready to charge. It's odd that these wires do not exist in the mating connector. But looking at the J-plug end, those terminals are connected to wires, one of which exits the other end of the orange sleeve and is connected to ground, but the other (a blue wire) never emerges from the orange sleeve. It seems there's some sort of circuitry in there to generate the pilot signal, so the two wires in the connector were designed out. Brandon mentioned something about the "J-control wires" not being installed, and I'm pretty sure this is it. Again, it's a little annoying only being 95% sure, but if my charger works, we'll be 100%!
You can also see one of the two allen screws attaching the cover of the heat sink to the heat sink, near the upper J-bolt. There's a second one which is hidden under the power connector in this picture; that's where I connected my ground lead (the hefty green-and-yellow wire on the left). Ground is a safety circuit which should NEVER conduct current; if it does, there's a ground fault. But in the event that there IS a fault (leakage or a dead short circuit), the ground wire is very important because it keeps the chassis from ever having line voltage on it...if line voltage does get on a grounded chassis, it'll immediately blow a fuse, which makes things safe. The two options for ground are the frame of the bike or the chassis of the charger. I elected to ground the chassis of the charger since that's where the AC power enters, and is where a fault is likely to occur.
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Here's where I mounted the controller, using gorilla glue, which I've decided is even more useful than duck tape (and no, it's not duct tape). I believe this is the top of the main contactor housing; I know for sure it has two monstrous wires coming out of it. The controller has wires coming out of it leading to two water-tight connectors, one which goes to the charger and one which goes to the motorcycle's Anderson connector, to pull the main contactor. This is one of my areas of concern; there are no strain reliefs on those connectors, and I worry about the wires breaking due to fatigue.
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And here's the Anderson connector that mates to the bike's external charger connector. The housing is marked "+" and "-" so you just insert the red wire into the "+" and the black wire into the "-". The signal lead has four possible positions, and this is the correct position. It's next to the "-" lead; look at the next picture to see which of the two positions next to the "-" lead it's installed in.
This terminal is pretty tricky to get fully seated. Use a very small screwdriver, or maybe an unfolded paper clip to drive it firmly into its socket. You should be able to feel it engage when it seats, and a gentle tug should not pull it out of the connector housing.
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Here's the same connector face-on, black power wire still on the left. You can see two of the smaller signal pin sockets are mounted in a higher boss, and the other two are mounted in a lower boss. The one signal pin we have to worry about goes next to the black wire, in the lower boss.
You can also see which way the big terminals insert; they have a leaf spring behind them which will give a very perceptible click when the terminal is fully inserted.
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Someone at Zero should be shot for where they mounted the external charge connector. This is all but inaccessible....glad I only have to do it once!
If you use dielectric grease, and you should, don't get any of it inside the connector. It's an insulator (dielectric), and pretty hard to scrub off, so it could cause connection problems if it gets on the connector pins themselves. Goop it all around the outside; its job is to keep water from infiltrating. I think I made a pretty suitable mess here.
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This is the 14-50 adapter Diginow supplies; as shown in an earlier pic it's a fairly short cable with a 14-50 plug on one end and a J1772 on the other. I was a little concerned about the J1772 connector clearing the handlebar -- that thing is a monstrosity, easily ten times as big as it needs to be. I did have to remove my cell phone mount, but the J1772 does fit, and I think I'll be able to find another spot for the cell mount.
I mounted my connector so that the J1772 comes in sideways from the left, like this. Since the bike is on its kickstand when charging, it seemed like this orientation will give the short cable a better chance of reaching the outlet.
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Here she is, all buttoned up with her new equipment. Red and purple don't go together very well.
I'm going to test it tomorrow; it's hot out there and I'm tired. I don't like the quality of the work I do when I'm tired.
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Doug, what windscreen do you have on your bike? How about the mounts for it? Can you post a photo where the entire screen is visible? Thanks!
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This is a great write-up! I'm glad everything came across mostly clearly. I definitely share your concerns about chafing, and for my connectors I wound up using vinyl tape carefully to get some strain relief.
The red connector routing can go through the right side, but definitely optimize for holding it in place firmly without chafing, so what you chose seems sensible. I also think you're right about the grounding.
I can't comment too much on the rest, having experienced a number of iterations and not knowing latest decisions completely.
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Doug, what windscreen do you have on your bike? How about the mounts for it? Can you post a photo where the entire screen is visible? Thanks!
It's an old-school Slipstreamer. Old-fashioned esthetics, obsolete mounting, big and ugly. But I like the "big" part, it mounted up pretty easily, and it seems to be working pretty well. There's a bit of buffeting at the top of my helmet, but otherwise it's a pretty comfortable ride, and my range improved by more than 20% when I put it on.
Best picture I've got of the whole screen.
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This is the 14-50 adapter Diginow supplies; as shown in an earlier pic it's a fairly short cable with a 14-50 plug on one end and a J1772 on the other.
Does the adapter put out a pilot signal at all?
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This is the 14-50 adapter Diginow supplies; as shown in an earlier pic it's a fairly short cable with a 14-50 plug on one end and a J1772 on the other.
Does the adapter put out a pilot signal at all?
A 14-50 socket has no need for a pilot signal. It's just a power jack. Two hots, a neutral (not used) and ground.
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An adapter could simulate the pilot signal, but the Supercharger is configurable on the fly to control what power it draws when there's no signal, which is safer than faking a signal that might not match the circuit.
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An adapter could simulate the pilot signal, but the Supercharger is configurable on the fly to control what power it draws when there's no signal, which is safer than faking a signal that might not match the circuit.
Does it "remember" the last setting, or do you have to set it each time?
My thought is, because the adapter is not telling it that 40A is available, it must remember that setting... otherwise you would have to set it each time you plugged in at home until you get an EVSE.
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Doug, what windscreen do you have on your bike? How about the mounts for it? Can you post a photo where the entire screen is visible? Thanks!
It's an old-school Slipstreamer. Old-fashioned esthetics, obsolete mounting, big and ugly. But I like the "big" part, it mounted up pretty easily, and it seems to be working pretty well. There's a bit of buffeting at the top of my helmet, but otherwise it's a pretty comfortable ride, and my range improved by more than 20% when I put it on.
Best picture I've got of the whole screen.
I like the purple and so does this guy:
(http://www.billboard.com/files/styles/article_main_image/public/media/prince-purple-rain-style-bb12-prince-2016-billboard-650.jpg)
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An adapter could simulate the pilot signal, but the Supercharger is configurable on the fly to control what power it draws when there's no signal, which is safer than faking a signal that might not match the circuit.
Does it "remember" the last setting, or do you have to set it each time?
My thought is, because the adapter is not telling it that 40A is available, it must remember that setting... otherwise you would have to set it each time you plugged in at home until you get an EVSE.
DigiNow needs to comment on that, or I can when I have time to dig around to figure out what the final decision was (tonight or tomorrow); I have to update my software to the final version, for example.
What I've been working with has defaults that have to be overridden each time. However, it's become easier to do that as the control software has matured, and I imagine or might encourage some of those overrides to be remembered user preferences, so you can hit a big button for "yes, this seems to be a real deal 50A/220V drop" or "6.6kW".
The control system is capable of remembering quite a bit across sessions in principle, but the risk of assuming a certain power level moving from one signal-less connection to another is overloading a newly-introduced charging circuit.
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The control system is capable of remembering quite a bit across sessions in principle, but the risk of assuming a certain power level moving from one signal-less connection to another is overloading a newly-introduced charging circuit.
This is exactly why I was asking... all that can be avoided if the adapter put out a signal, even if it wasnt a J1772 signal... Theres other methods too, like a RFID, but that adds complexity of its own.
I dont have an EVSE in my garage, but I do have a 14-50 socket... so my thought was "will I have to remember to tell it it can use more power everytime I plug in?"... of course that leads to the second thought of "If I give it power when it was last set to the 14-50, will it try to draw 40A?!"
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Does it "remember" the last setting, or do you have to set it each time?
My thought is, because the adapter is not telling it that 40A is available, it must remember that setting... otherwise you would have to set it each time you plugged in at home until you get an EVSE.
Brandon told me that the default isn't changeable yet, but that was several days ago. He may have updated the app. My understanding at the time was that it starts up unpowered, with the default setting, so you have the opportunity to change the setting from the default if necessary before powering on. You certainly wouldn't want to blow the breaker right at startup. Basically, it sound like it's all manually controlled right now.
As I understand the pilot/response protocol, the EVSE puts out the +-12V PWM square wave when it senses a diode/resistor load on the pilot pin, and then it reads the resistive load on the positive portion of the square wave to determine whether the vehicle is ready to charge, correct? So it sounds like all that's REALLY needed to get things started is a diode and 880-ohm resistor to ground, then the charger can draw what it wishes from the charging station...no active circuitry needed, just two passive comps. Do you guys know if I'm interpreting that correctly?
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The control system is capable of remembering quite a bit across sessions in principle, but the risk of assuming a certain power level moving from one signal-less connection to another is overloading a newly-introduced charging circuit.
This is exactly why I was asking... all that can be avoided if the adapter put out a signal, even if it wasnt a J1772 signal... Theres other methods too, like a RFID, but that adds complexity of its own.
I dont have an EVSE in my garage, but I do have a 14-50 socket... so my thought was "will I have to remember to tell it it can use more power everytime I plug in?"... of course that leads to the second thought of "If I give it power when it was last set to the 14-50, will it try to draw 40A?!"
I hear you, and fast home charging is an important story.
I suppose it's fun to contemplate wiring up a J signal simulator with a dial that just read out in kW or something, and feed it into the J plug just for this cable. Try it as a fun hobby project? I don't know who would agree to sell such a thing, though.
My current house's electrical system is ancient and has no 220 that I can find, though, so for me this is a wish unless I figure out a nicer place to move...
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Well, I was hoping to post one of those "look how fast I'm charging!" pics tonight, but not so much.
I fired it up, managed to connect to it via bluetooth, did the calibration thing, and....nothing. A minute or two later, a pretty loud pop was heard, and the voltage readout dropped to zero. Now it won't do anything...won't charge with the stock charger, won't key on (though the dashboard and lights are fine). I'm thinking the pop I heard was main contactor blowing out.
If the 100-amp fuse blew, that wouldn't prevent me from riding, would it? I get no contactor click even after keying it several times.
No joy in Mudville tonight.
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Well, I was hoping to post one of those "look how fast I'm charging!" pics tonight, but not so much.
I fired it up, managed to connect to it via bluetooth, did the calibration thing, and....nothing. A minute or two later, a pretty loud pop was heard, and the voltage readout dropped to zero. Now it won't do anything...won't charge with the stock charger, won't key on (though the dashboard and lights are fine). I'm thinking the pop I heard was main contactor blowing out.
If the 100-amp fuse blew, that wouldn't prevent me from riding, would it? I get no contactor click even after keying it several times.
No joy in Mudville tonight.
Oh no! Were you connected to J1772 or NEMA 14-50??
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My current house's electrical system is ancient and has no 220 that I can find, though, so for me this is a wish unless I figure out a nicer place to move...
In a house/residential one phase is supplied with the two legs of the transformer giving 120V each separated by a 180 degree phase, resulting in a combined voltage of 240v when two hot wires are used. An electrician can add 240v to your house...even if its old. The only question is whether they would have to add another drop or if your existing service has enough juice to add a 50 amp outlet. If your house is old then you probably have 100 amp service and would need the extra drop.
If you own your home then it seems like it would be more than worth your investment in the property given that you can get 30% federal tax credit on the install costs and that you would get a lot of use out of it with your Super Charger.
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My current house's electrical system is ancient and has no 220 that I can find, though, so for me this is a wish unless I figure out a nicer place to move...
In a house/residential one phase is supplied with the two legs of the transformer giving 120V each separated by a 180 degree phase, resulting in a combined voltage of 240v when two hot wires are used. An electrician can add 240v to your house...even if its old. The only question is whether they would have to add another drop or if your existing service has enough juice to add a 50 amp outlet. If your house is old then you probably have 100 amp service and would need the extra drop.
If you own your home then it seems like it would be more than worth your investment in the property given that you can get 30% federal tax credit on the install costs and that you would get a lot of use out of it with your Super Charger.
(Aside from this generally being good advice) I rent a house built in 1925, and I know from experience that if the total household load exceeds ~3.5kW for (some amount of time more than an hour), a 30A plug fuse (all the fuses are plug fuses, and there are two retrofitted breakers that replace the secondary fuse panel) blows that takes out everything at once. That is upstream from the other circuit the garage is on, where if I had a charger short, it would lock the bike in the garage because there's no other entrance.
I kind of don't think there are two phases.
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Well, I was hoping to post one of those "look how fast I'm charging!" pics tonight, but not so much.
I fired it up, managed to connect to it via bluetooth, did the calibration thing, and....nothing. A minute or two later, a pretty loud pop was heard, and the voltage readout dropped to zero. Now it won't do anything...won't charge with the stock charger, won't key on (though the dashboard and lights are fine). I'm thinking the pop I heard was main contactor blowing out.
If the 100-amp fuse blew, that wouldn't prevent me from riding, would it? I get no contactor click even after keying it several times.
No joy in Mudville tonight.
What were you plugged into? You have a 2014 SR - the accessory port is fused at 60A (EDIT: 100A apparently via the grapevine. The manual has always been unclear for no reason I can tell.)
Also, did you make sure the contactor was shut before plugging in?
It may have been the BMS, not the contactor. If you take off the plastic cover over the front of the battery, you should be able to see damage (or smell it).
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What were you plugged into? You have a 2014 SR - the accessory port is fused at 60A.
I was plugged into a 14-50 plug. Brandon told me I was fused at 100A, that 95A hadn't blown any fuses he was aware of. In any event, I'd told the app that I wanted 2000W of power. Always start small and smell for failures.
Also, did you make sure the contactor was shut before plugging in?
The only ways I know of pulling the contactor in are keying the bike on, or plugging in a proper charger. Neither of those happened prior to failure, other than the Diginow charger. Why would it matter anyhow?
It may have been the BMS, not the contactor. If you take off the plastic cover over the front of the battery, you should be able to see damage (or smell it).
Oh yay. An even more expensive failure. Is this supposed to cheer me up?
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What were you plugged into? You have a 2014 SR - the accessory port is fused at 60A.
I was plugged into a 14-50 plug. Brandon told me I was fused at 100A, that 95A hadn't blown any fuses he was aware of. In any event, I'd told the app that I wanted 2000W of power. Always start small and smell for failures.
"Start small", of course, is a good idea. I'd encourage (and I think I did in the documentation) a strong instinct to unplug if anything happens during testing or usage that is not expected.
Also, did you make sure the contactor was shut before plugging in?
The only ways I know of pulling the contactor in are keying the bike on, or plugging in a proper charger. Neither of those happened prior to failure, other than the Diginow charger. Why would it matter anyhow?
I literally wrote that as step one for testing and calibration. The accessory charging port cannot access the battery without the contactor being closed. You were applying a charge to ... the controller and the precharge circuit, I am guessing. You need to get someone to look at it who knows the bike's systems really well.
I will certainly re-evaluate how the install document is structured. The user guide spends a lot of time explaining how this whole setup works and why the contactor needs to be shut to use the Supercharger.
It may have been the BMS, not the contactor. If you take off the plastic cover over the front of the battery, you should be able to see damage (or smell it).
Oh yay. An even more expensive failure. Is this supposed to cheer me up?
Well, it shouldn't be terribly expensive, in either case, but this needs to not happen for any other customer. Remember, I do not represent the vendor; I did pro bono work to make this thing more accessible and do some testing to shake out issues.
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@Doug
I'd like to come check your installation. This way we can rule out any simple mistakes and you can tell me what your charging process was step by step. I will also diagnose the bike no matter what happened and if its simple, I'll fix it. If its just the charge fuse it's a bit of a bitch, but I have one here.
Anyway, when your on hangouts next ping me with what day works for you.
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Good idea Brandon. Doug, let him check your installation to make sure it was done right. Although I feel there was perhaps an error in the installation with regards to the precharge mating of the DC side of the charger, where if done incorrectly will do exactly what you are describing and blow the charge fuse from the capacitors in the Sevcon and SuperCharger being at different voltages and trying to equalize instantly. The charge fuse is a 100 amp fast blow type. I will see if the instructions can make this more clear especially for those who don't understand electronics as well as people on this forum.
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@Terry Doug is an EE with 30+ years experience and the docs are SUPER clear not to plug anything in or out after instalation unless the bike and charger have been off for 10 min. Like super clear last iteration I saw.
So I doubt Doug would have done that with his experience level, but everyone does make mistakes on occasion, so I won't rule it out until Doug messages me again.
An in person overview and diagnostic will be the only way to tell what happened.
BTW, my phone got ran over by 2 cars today... which is what took me so long to respond.
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I finished the install Monday evening, and rode the bike to work and home Tuesday. Performance was perfectly normal except for the multiple keying required to get it to precharge, as expected. It was buttoned up for 24 hours. I had just ridden the bike home not ten minutes before, and keyed it on to check the battery voltage on the Zero app, in order to calibrate the Diginow app literally seconds before, so it was fully precharged.
My mistake was in keying the bike off before starting the Diginow. I read through the installation manual and user guide, but I was still under the impression the Diginow charger would manage the main contactor. I just plain missed the fact that the bike must be keyed on (or the onboard charger started) to close the contactor. Brandon tells me the SC tests to see if the contactor is closed before applying charging current, but it takes a minute or so for the pre-charge to bleed off to the point where the SC can realize the contactor isn't closed. I keyed the bike off and turned on the SC too quickly, fooling the SC into thinking the contactor was closed. It applied charging current with the contactor open, so instead of going into the battery, the charging current went wherever it could...probably the BMS or MBB.
Currently, the bike won't charge with either charger, nor will it go, which tells me it isn't the fuse. When I key the bike on, the dashboard comes alive and performs its normal bootup sequence, but there is no contactor click, no matter how many times I cycle the key. There is also no click when I plug in the onboard charger, though the dashboard does come alive as when charging normally. I was thinking that meant the contactor had blown, but on further thought, I can't see how that would happen. It seems more likely that the BMS or the MBB is shot.
Brandon said he'd come down and help me out, hopefully this Saturday, and I very much appreciate that. He's going to check my installation and help me troubleshoot the bike. Hopefully he can help me get back on the road, and charging. That kind of commitment you don't see from too many manufacturers. I also intend to pick his brain to understand the whole process better, and see if we can't brainstorm some ideas to make it even less likely that anybody else can do what I did.
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While I'm glad this unfortunate situation is being handled graciously by everyone involved, personally I'm choosing to support this product much more conservatively.
I spent a lot of time crafting that documentation's language to be clear and concise, but this kind of unchecked assumption is too early to allow with equipment like this. Further customers should communicate directly with DigiNow as far as I am concerned so that there is no misunderstanding. I'm glad by contrast that Ben appreciated the need to interpret the documentation very strictly, and seems to have achieved good results that way.
I'm mainly concerned by the risk of equipment failures due to incomplete communication for future customers who will not have direct knowledgeable dealer access. If you're on the shipment list, I think you should thoroughly consider reading the documentation thoroughly and repeat until the entirety sinks in.
I've personally watched someone brown out half of an aircraft carrier due to unintentional deviation from procedure and casually forgetting to double check assumptions, among many other less expensive lessons. I'm not perfect or better than anyone; in fact it's out of a knowledge of my natural limitations that I approach technical work and the manners around it mindfully. I'd encourage customers without a fully briefed dealer to consider the equipment recommendations very strictly.
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I'm mainly concerned by the risk of equipment failures due to incomplete communication for future customers who will not have direct knowledgeable dealer access. If you're on the shipment list, I think you should thoroughly consider reading the documentation thoroughly and repeat until the entirety sinks in.
I hope Doug is back on the road very soon. His sacrifice is certainly appreciated by this Zero rider. It's unfortunate that a sequencing issue could lead to this failure. I know the Charge Tank also requires the key to be on, so maybe the potential for this failure can't be avoided. But maybe delays could be added while checking the status of the bike before charging begins.
In the future I'm sure Doug and anyone who's reading this will always listen for the contactor before starting the Supercharger. But we all probably have family members and friends who's impulse to be helpful causes them to ignore being told to never touch your bike.
Good luck to all.
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Personally, I don't have to graciously characterize Doug's interactions. Prior to receiving the product, he's been publicly and privately acting entitled, insulting, and refused discussion or assistance. I did not expect such aggressive posturing as an entitled expert to precede an uncritical reading and mistake.
As far as I'm concerned, Doug didn't treat what I wrote with respect, and I went out of my way to make this work ahead of time, again pro bono.
A lot of the wiki work took great care to describe general systems theory gleaned both from similar mishaps I've witnessed and learned from others. Does anyone think I didn't make a sacrifice? My DSR was out of commission for a similar procedural error while my 13DS was still in the shop for damage sustained in early spring that derailed my original testing plans. This whole year for me has been a series of delays, headaches, and expenses dealing with this and related projects, and my goal of touring on the DSR was sacrificed to support Ben and related efforts.
I'm hopeful that remote customers take this seriously. What happened here was needless.
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I know the Charge Tank also requires the key to be on, so maybe the potential for this failure can't be avoided.
wait. what?
I know this is slightly off topic, but I have to ask this..
When deciding between the Diginow and the chargetank, one of the deciding factors was that the charge tank was designed and programmed into the zero, so you dont have to leave your key in it. Do you have to leave your key in the bike to charge with it? Is this just for starting the charge or can you take it back out afterward?
If its exactly like the digicharger, everyone might as well get the digicharger.
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"My mistake was in keying the bike off before starting the Diginow. I read through the installation manual and user guide, but I was still under the impression the Diginow charger would manage the main contactor. I just plain missed the fact that the bike must be keyed on (or the onboard charger started) to close the contactor."
I thought that made it fairly clear that I'm the one that made the mistake. If not, here's a more clearly-worded version: "The user guide and the installation manual both instruct the user to key the bike on, or plug in the onboard charger, before actuating the SC. I read both of those documents, and still managed to do it wrong."
I also mentioned to Brandon early this morning that I really needed to re-read your documents before plugging in for the first time. I'd only read them once, several days before. But even that wasn't quite right. What I REALLY needed to do was have the document open in front of me while I stepped through the process the first time.
When I was working at General Dynamics, we referred to three levels of reliability. We had "idiot-proof", "Bill proof", and finally "clean room proof". Us engineers were the idiots that initially tried to make stuff impossible to blow up. Bill was our boss, who never bothered to check which way he was supposed to plug things in before powering them up; he was the second level of testing. If whatever we were making survived the Bill test, finally, the boys in the clean room would try using it. If they couldn't blow it up, it couldn't be blown up. Hopefully, I'm the Bill in this situation. I do think there are some tweaks possible to the firmware that might help make the product more rugged, and a commercial product needs every ounce of ruggedness it can get. I'm looking forward to discussing some thoughts in that direction with Brandon, not by way of criticizing the excellent work he's done, but hopefully to elevate it even higher. I feel the same way about the excellent work you've done on the documentation. You've made a great knife, but maybe it is possible to capitalize on my stupidity and hone it even sharper. People do stupid things, even us entitled engineers.
There are some abrasive personalities on this forum, and I'm aware I can be one of them. Please don't take any of it personally, at least not from me. You know what us engineers are like; we relentlessly pursue solutions, elegance and capital-T Truth, and our egos can be pretty big because we grew up generally being the smartest kid in the class. It's not intended to hurt or insult anybody, it's just paying too much attention to the technical aspects of a situation, and too little to the social aspects.
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I want to make something clear: being abrasive has nothing to do with being an engineer. Imagine your boss claiming that "bosses are just abrasive" - you'd know they were just posturing to avoid figuring out how they're screwing up. Well, that's what I hear when anyone makes that claim about their profession or persona.
The only reason I replied was to disabuse anyone of the notion that you've made some kind of unique sacrifice. Updating the instructions (which is already happening) should not require equipment loss and a personal onsite visit.
Kudos on your hardware work and good luck getting back operational very soon. Next time, try asking questions first or talking through your plans or anything.
Let's try to solve some better problems than this.
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... I'm glad by contrast that Ben appreciated the need to interpret the documentation very strictly, and seems to have achieved good results that way....
When I get mine, I am very much going to follow Ben's lead. High-rate charging is nothing to take lightly.
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Does anyone think I didn't make a sacrifice?
I wasn't referring to you. Can we keep at least one of these threads PRODUCTIVE and void of this PISSING?
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I know the Charge Tank also requires the key to be on, so maybe the potential for this failure can't be avoided.
wait. what?
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Do you have to leave your key in the bike to charge with it? Is this just for starting the charge or can you take it back out afterward?
I think there's a link somewhere on this forum with Zero's instructions that I think come with the Charge Tank. I read there about having to energize the bike so that the circuits needed for the Charge Tank would be on. I don't remember what those instructions read about when you can remove the key.
The Zero owner's manual I have reads to have the key on before charging, and remove the key when charging starts.
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I know the Charge Tank also requires the key to be on, so maybe the potential for this failure can't be avoided.
wait. what?
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Do you have to leave your key in the bike to charge with it? Is this just for starting the charge or can you take it back out afterward?
I think there's a link somewhere on this forum with Zero's instructions that I think come with the Charge Tank. I read there about having to energize the bike so that the circuits needed for the Charge Tank would be on. I don't remember what those instructions read about when you can remove the key.
The Zero owner's manual I have reads to have the key on before charging, and remove the key when charging starts.
I looked it up in the 2016 manual... I never knew this... thanks!
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To me, one of the things I struggle with the most in this situation is a lack of information. Perhaps it's just the control freak engineer in me, but for whatever reason, I want to know everything I can about what's going on, and I just don't know a good place to find all the information I think I need.
One of the things I'm just starting to fully understand right now is the concept of the "pre-charge". If you already understand what the pre-charge is all about, or don't want to hear me mansplain it, feel free to click to another post. If you don't know, or want to check your knowledge against mine (and please correct me if I'm wrong about anything!), here's how I understand it.
The main battery has (of course) a very stable, high DC voltage on it. The exact voltage depends on the battery's state of charge, temperature, age, etc. To keep the battery from draining, and to keep things as safe as possible, the main contactor opens up whenever possible to keep the high voltage off of things that don't need to be powered at the moment -- in particular, the motor and its Sevcon driver. That makes things much safer to work on when the bike is keyed off. But those high-voltage circuits have a lot of "bypassing capacitance" (capacitors connected from positive to negative) to stabilize their working voltage, and they hold a charge for a fair while even after the contactor is opened up.
If the bypassing capacitors aren't at the same voltage as the battery, you can't just throw the contactor closed. The capacitors will want to charge virtually instantaneously from the batteries, drawing a REALLY high current spike just as the contactor is at its most vulnerable -- when the contacts aren't quite touching yet. That causes a fat, juicy spark to arc between the contacts, which heats them up so fast it can literally weld them together...and you don't want your contacts welded together. To prevent that, before closing the contactor, a high-power resistor is connected from the battery to the capacitors for a few seconds, charging the capacitors up to the same voltage as the battery with a much more manageable amount of current. The bike's circuitry verifies that the capacitors and battery are at exactly the same voltage before it will close the contactor, so there's no inrush when the contacts are closed, and no spark that can cause grief. That's the "pre-charge", and it's why it takes a couple of seconds before you hear the contactor click after you key on your bike or power up the charger. The SC adds even more capacitance, which it needs for its own operation, so the pre-charge isn't enough to reach full battery voltage, which is why (with the older firmware) you may need to key your bike two or three times before the contactor will close.
This, I'm pretty sure, is why an external charger can't just pull the contactor closed. The external charger can't do a pre-charge to the precise battery voltage because it doesn't KNOW the battery voltage before the contactor is closed, so it can't know when it's safe to close the contactor. That information has to be obtained from the bike's internal circuitry, which has access to the battery's voltage even when the contactor is open. It can verify the capacitors and battery are at the same voltage, and therefore it's safe to close the contactor. The onboard charger apparently also has that information, but I'm guessing the raw battery voltage just isn't exposed to an external charger through the Anderson connector, so it's never safe for the external charger to pull the contactor closed. Keying the bike on, or connecting its onboard charger, pulls the contactor closed safely, after which it's safe for the external charger to maintain the contactor in the closed position.
I think I understand it now (assuming I've figured this all out correctly), and it makes sense why you have to key the bike on to begin charging with an external charger. And it makes sense why not doing so can cause havoc. You're attempting to apply charging current to the battery without the battery being connected.
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I think I understand it now (assuming I've figured this all out correctly), and it makes sense why you have to key the bike on to begin charging with an external charger.
I think you have the general idea of it just fine.
If you ever play around with higher voltage (over 50v or so) electric bicycles at all, you'll find you have the same issue swapping packs and plugging in chargers. If I dont precharge my controller before connecting it, it makes a visible pop of light that is visible through the connector plastic, and leaves a nice burn mark on the connecter.
So I have a tiny connector with a resistor in it. Plug it in and a second later the caps are charged close enough I can connect the main battery wires. The voltage equalization doesnt have to be perfect, it just has to be close enough that theres no huge amp draw to equalize.
Before I broke down and started putting these equalization connectors on everything, I just had to deal with the loud POP when I did the battery connection... it only took a couple times of me forgetting to look away and getting a blindspot for me to add them. lol
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I think I understand it now (assuming I've figured this all out correctly), and it makes sense why you have to key the bike on to begin charging with an external charger.
I think you have the general idea of it just fine.
If you ever play around with higher voltage (over 50v or so) electric bicycles at all, you'll find you have the same issue swapping packs and plugging in chargers. If I dont precharge my controller before connecting it, it makes a visible pop of light that is visible through the connector plastic, and leaves a nice burn mark on the connecter.
So I have a tiny connector with a resistor in it. Plug it in and a second later the caps are charged close enough I can connect the main battery wires. The voltage equalization doesnt have to be perfect, it just has to be close enough that theres no huge amp draw to equalize.
Before I broke down and started putting these equalization connectors on everything, I just had to deal with the loud POP when I did the battery connection... it only took a couple times of me forgetting to look away and getting a blindspot for me to add them. lol
This resistor on the Zero is in the BMS, so popping it requires replacing the BMS per OEM rules or doing DIY solid state soldering, very tiny.
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OK OK boys everything will be just fine. Some people have a tenancy to ignore manuals when they are familiar with the topic, especially at an expert level. I know I have been guilty of this too.
What I REALLY needed to do was have the document open in front of me while I stepped through the process the first time.
That is the point of the documentation, and Brian has done a wonderful job crafting it for that use case too.
While that scenario is so rare to achieve we have never had it happen, and I just tried to do it with Hunter several times, it seems "Bill" (Doug) was combination unlucky and made a mistake at the same time. Unfortunate combination.
Doug also had code which was pre-prod release due to excitement and extreme desire to get the charger ASAP. As of Sunday we had a prod release in the code and after I inspect the situation on Doug's charger, if this is what happened we will rev the code.
All I have to say is good Job everyone for finding what could potentially be the hardest bug to reproduce and Thanks Doug for helping make a better product for everyone else.
Also, @Brian, I think we needn't regale the forum with our sacrifice of time, patience, emotion, stress etc. I mean I don't think most people would be able to even think about what you, Terry, Luke, and I have gone through testing the SC and bug fixing/documenting I mean shit were like CCT, Green Beret. and Delta Force rolled all into one for High Power Charging. The number of times each one of us wanted to give up is unimaginable, but we pushed through it, pushed bikes, and pushed our limits to get this here. Not that we intended to need to put so much into this, but I really am thankful we all stepped up and put in everything we had, quite literally.
See you Saturday Doug!
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I... look, I'm not bragging. Don't make it harder for me to talk. I've had a rough year and really am not enjoying this situation.
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I'm really trying not to "drama up" the situation. I admit that I did a stupid thing, mostly due to a fair amount of Engineering hubris, and it's going to cost me some time and treasure to get back on the streets. Not the first time it's happened, probably won't be the last, and it's not the most expensive adventure I've ever had, either.
Brandon has graciously offered to come down and help me get rubber turning again, and I appreciate it a lot. He has a lot of knowledge about these bikes that I don't have, and hopefully can help me source the parts I need to get running, and get the SC (and me) operating correctly. Along the way, hopefully this is one more mistake the hardware and/or firmware can be bullet-proofed against, so if anybody else ever makes the mistake I made, it won't destroy anything.
It's not that big of a deal, in my mind. All part of product development. If you want to make an omelet, you gotta crack a few eggs.
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I find it surprising that you need to turn the motorcycle "on" to use the charge tank, when you don't need to do that for level 1 charging.
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I find it surprising that you need to turn the motorcycle "on" to use the charge tank, when you don't need to do that for level 1 charging.
It's because circuits that are needed to start Level II charging aren't energized by inserting the J1772 plug; maybe handshaking and pre-charge.
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How does the QUIQ charger do it, then?
I could swear that I saw in an earlier forum posting that there was a resistor within the Anderson connector itself that would trigger the contactor somehow.
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How does the QUIQ charger do it, then?
I could swear that I saw in an earlier forum posting that there was a resistor within the Anderson connector itself that would trigger the contactor somehow.
100kOhm resistor to B+ per Trikester and a few others. Apparently the Quiq charger is configured with this. I have a solution for this on-hand but haven't tested it yet due to a hold-up.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4690 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4690)
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How does the QUIQ charger do it, then?
I could swear that I saw in an earlier forum posting that there was a resistor within the Anderson connector itself that would trigger the contactor somehow.
As I tried to explain in a long post earlier, I don't think it's that it CAN'T be done...it can. The question is whether it can be done SAFELY, without causing big arcs on the contactor, and the short answer is, no, it can't, unless you have a way of verifying that the capacitors on the high-power electronics are pre-charged to the same voltage as the battery. If you pull the contactor without the capacitors being pre-charged, you run the risk of damaging the contactor. You might get away with it for a long time, but at some point it might bite you in the posterior.
I've been wondering if you could pre-charge to, say, 105 volts, which should be no more than 10 volts or so from the battery voltage, whether it's fully charged or fully depleted. Then the current surge when you closed the contactor would be much smaller; the question is how much smaller, and is that small enough to be considered truly safe? I'm still not sure I'd want to risk it.
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Could you not close contractor with external charger off , this would raise the output caps of charger to battery voltage level, when charger turns on there would be less voltage difference as output caps at battery level.
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Could you not close contractor with external charger off , this would raise the output caps of charger to battery voltage level, when charger turns on there would be less voltage difference as output caps at battery level.
It's not just the caps on the charger that need to charge up, there are also caps on the power elex of the bike that may be at very low voltage if the bike's been off for a while. And if those caps (either set of them) are at a very different voltage than the battery, when you close the contactor, you'll get a big arc as the contacts are closing, as the caps try to charge up very fast. That's why the caps (all of them) need to be pre-charged to the battery voltage before closing the contactor. Once the contactor is fully closed, it can withstand large currents, but as it's closing, you can get an arc if the voltages on the two sides of the contactor aren't the same.
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So, if I'm supercharging and the power goes out briefly, or the J plug gets pulled and put back in...the connector will close and my BMS will be destroyed? Or did I miss something in the order of operations from the OP? If that's the case, I'm going to A, always keep my onboard charger plugged in while SuperCharging, and B, ask if the SuperCharger could be wired to power up the onboard charger first, then ramp up it's own charge moments later after the connector is open?
Also, I want to say, I can't wait for my SC to ship, and thank you to everyone that's put in the hundreds or thousands of hours of work on this. I don't think it gets said enough. You've engineered a game changer gentleman.
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So, if I'm supercharging and the power goes out briefly, or the J plug gets pulled and put back in...the connector will close and my BMS will be destroyed? Or did I miss something in the order of operations from the OP?
Not quite.
Doug's SC did not initiate charging on its own because it thought the bike might be off, however given the timing he had he was able to tell the SC to Force charging while the contactor was open. This is a manual action he had to take at just the right unlucky moment in his hard to repeat timing order just exactly the way he did it.
Without exactly what Doug did and him manually telling the charger to force charge at that one moment it's not possible to repeat. Hunter and I have been trying to reproduce the error and have not been able to, however we have narrowed it down to a very precise timing order and section of code that could possibly allow it.
Frankly, I'm quite impressed Doug was able to do this. We actually had to analyze a lot of stuff to see how it was possible. We're adding in some additional safeguards now that we know how this happened.
But again no, without forcing the charger to start with an open contactor you're BMS will be quite a happy camper no matter what the situation ;)
Also, I want to say, I can't wait for my SC to ship, and thank you to everyone that's put in the hundreds or thousands of hours of work on this. I don't think it gets said enough. You've engineered a game changer gentleman.
Thanks! It means a lot. Most of what we here these days from those who are not testing or in possession of their SC yet is not quite that encouraging. So we all really appreciate it.
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I don't have a zero yet, but I am happy that super charger has been developed, fast charging is a must. As with any high tech and high power system, lots of work in design and testing , glad to see fix is already being worked on to fix this unusual fault, it has to be fool proof and fail safe to be a successful.
Thanks and respect to all who have developed and worked on and tested this, hope your up and riding soon Doug , interesting read.
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I've been wondering if you could pre-charge to, say, 105 volts, which should be no more than 10 volts or so from the battery voltage, whether it's fully charged or fully depleted. Then the current surge when you closed the contactor would be much smaller; the question is how much smaller, and is that small enough to be considered truly safe? I'm still not sure I'd want to risk it.
Probably not ok, because the bike could be more than 16v off and we're filling some large caps. From messing with ebikes (that use smaller caps and smaller lipo) I know that being more than 3v or so off is a significant surge that will cause arching. Its not as strong, but you can see the build up on the connectors. I know it cant be good for the caps either, but I dont have a way of quantifying damage to them... so thats more of an assumption. Its not the voltage being off, its the amperage going through as the connection is at its weakest.
The other thing to remember is that we're not just connecting the charger. We're connecting the entire bike, (controller, DC-DC, etc) to the battery.
There is no way around using some kind of precharge resistor.. ideally it would be the OEM one that is just "told" to come on.. that might even be mandatory if the monolith is 100% sealed from connecting to the battery easily (I dont know)
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Thanks! It means a lot. Most of what we here these days from those who are not testing or in possession of their SC yet is not quite that encouraging. So we all really appreciate it.
Hopeful my super charger order is shipped when it is *ready* and not as eager to blow up my bike. Can't help the anticipation though, it's very exciting to think about the freedom of travel this product adds to EVs. I've never met an engineer who could ship a product on-time without first making it perfect :-)
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So, if I'm supercharging and the power goes out briefly, or the J plug gets pulled and put back in...the connector will close and my BMS will be destroyed?
Brandon answered in terms of my specific error in judgment, but more generally, no, the situation you described wouldn't be dangerous, for two reasons.
First, a power outage or unplug, however brief, would reset the charger. There's no way the charger can maintain its massive current output for even a fraction of a second without input power. So with its input power gone, it would reset and cycle off, including releasing the contactor. It would be safely off when the power came back.
Second, the arcing happens when the input capacitors have discharged to a different voltage level than the battery voltage. If the capacitors and the battery are at the same voltage, there will be no arc when the contactor closes. In a very brief power interruption, there won't be time for the capacitors to drain sufficiently to cause the problem.
So you're protected two ways from a brief interruption of power: First, the caps won't discharge enough to cause an arc even if the contactor immediately closes again, and second, the contactor won't close anyhow, because the charger will be reset.
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Weekend update: Brandon came by, as promised, and figured out for me (I was going to say helped me figure out, but he did all the work!) what's wrong with my bike. Long story short, it's probably a single resistor (the pre-charge resistor) on the BMS. We briefly discussed just replacing that resistor -- I have a microscope and a good soldering iron at home, and work on surface-mount electronics a lot -- but I don't like the thought that there may be some collateral damage, even something minor, which we wouldn't catch, and would further delay getting the bike back on the road. I'm also not a big fan of riding around with a board that's been stressed in any way, so I'm just going to have my local shop replace the BMS.
MBB and Sevcon both got clean bills of health.
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Good to hear Doug. Hopefully you're back on the road shortly.
Unfortunate to be the guinea pig, but it sounds like the net result is some lost time and $$$ on your end and a better product from DigiNow.
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I don't have a DigiNow but rather have a Charge Tank. I, for one, appreciate the sacrifices that Doug, Brian and the others here have made in furtherance of the Supercharger technology.
I charged via my Charge Tank for the first time today and by @#$?!! accident, I did it the proper way (bike on, charge then switch bike off). Not because I read the instructions, but because I was so anxious to know if my Charge Tank worked. I didn't bother to switch the bike off, like I was intending to do.
If no other benefit comes from this thread (and to my amateur eyes, there is a lot of wisdom in here) I am going to grab my label machine and put a label next to my J1772 plug that reads "Bike On Before Connection".
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I don't have a DigiNow but rather have a Charge Tank.
If no other benefit comes from this thread (and to my amateur eyes, there is a lot of wisdom in here) I am going to grab my label machine and put a label next to my J1772 plug that reads "Bike On Before Connection".
Pretty sure you don't need to leave the bike on while using the charge tank made by Zero. That is only an issue with the DigiNow Supercharger. (I would call Zero customer service to confirm.)
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Pretty sure you don't need to leave the bike on while using the charge tank made by Zero. That is only an issue with the DigiNow Supercharger. (I would call Zero customer service to confirm.)
I don't expect that I have to leave the bike on during the charging process either. But if I understand this thread correctly, I do need to have the bike switched on when I plug the J1772 into the charge tank. I can then switch the bike off once I have current flowing.
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Weekend update: Brandon came by, as promised, and figured out for me (I was going to say helped me figure out, but he did all the work!) what's wrong with my bike. Long story short, it's probably a single resistor (the pre-charge resistor) on the BMS. We briefly discussed just replacing that resistor -- I have a microscope and a good soldering iron at home, and work on surface-mount electronics a lot -- but I don't like the thought that there may be some collateral damage, even something minor, which we wouldn't catch, and would further delay getting the bike back on the road. I'm also not a big fan of riding around with a board that's been stressed in any way, so I'm just going to have my local shop replace the BMS.
MBB and Sevcon both got clean bills of health.
It's good that this failure falls into a known issue, at least!
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I don't have a DigiNow but rather have a Charge Tank.
If no other benefit comes from this thread (and to my amateur eyes, there is a lot of wisdom in here) I am going to grab my label machine and put a label next to my J1772 plug that reads "Bike On Before Connection".
Pretty sure you don't need to leave the bike on while using the charge tank made by Zero. That is only an issue with the DigiNow Supercharger. (I would call Zero customer service to confirm.)
Subscribe to Benswing on YouTube to follow my summer journeys.
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Both the Super Charger and Charge Tank operate the same in this capacity. Start charging with the bike on, and then turn the bike off after charging has commenced.
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I had learned from using the Delta-Q's on my 2012 ZF9 (and also now on my '15 SR) that Zero recommended plugging in the onboard charger before plugging in the off-board charger - although I had no knowledge of why.
I have a suggestion to Zero (from a non-engineer) - why not integrate a bright green LED light near the off-board charging port that lights up after the contactor has closed? Green light means 'ready' :-)
This wouldn't help for the ChargeTank users (I like Semper Why's idea - and I'm surprised that this warning -"Bike On Before Connection" - isn't engraved into the plastic around the J1772 inlet), but it would help for anyone plugging in Delta-Q's, or Elcons, or the DigiNow charger.
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So, if I'm supercharging and the power goes out briefly, or the J plug gets pulled and put back in...the connector will close and my BMS will be destroyed? Or did I miss something in the order of operations from the OP?
Not quite.
Doug's SC did not initiate charging on its own because it thought the bike might be off, however given the timing he had he was able to tell the SC to Force charging while the contactor was open. This is a manual action he had to take at just the right unlucky moment in his hard to repeat timing order just exactly the way he did it.
Without exactly what Doug did and him manually telling the charger to force charge at that one moment it's not possible to repeat. Hunter and I have been trying to reproduce the error and have not been able to, however we have narrowed it down to a very precise timing order and section of code that could possibly allow it.
Frankly, I'm quite impressed Doug was able to do this. We actually had to analyze a lot of stuff to see how it was possible. We're adding in some additional safeguards now that we know how this happened.
But again no, without forcing the charger to start with an open contactor you're BMS will be quite a happy camper no matter what the situation ;)
...
Oh, that is good to hear.
Can't wait to get my supercharger.
Hope the Android app with bluetooth will be available, since wifi on/off/connect is awkward.
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My Super Charger arrived today and I'm Super Excited and can't wait to try it, but...
After what happened to Doug, I'm cautious and want to take my time to connect everything and make sure that I'm following the right sequence to use it.
Attached is a picture of what I received.
I was told via email that:
We can ship your charger [...] WITHOUT the enable feature, which means that when using the charger, you will have to keep the bike powered on. We are working on improving the reliability and performance of the enabling feature and will ship you an enable capable black box when we are confident in the performance and reliability of the feature.
So I'm guessing that the "black box" on the bottom left is the brain of the operation and is what Brandon is still working on improving. Smart move to keep the brain modular and easily upgradable...
Everything seems pretty straight forward: the brain connects to the charger and does its thing, the cable in the middle connects to the controller to pump juice to the battery, and the J1772 cable is the input.
One question I have is: is the green / yellow cable a ground to connect to the frame? If so, is there a preferred place to connect it?
Finally, items that are MIA:
- The NEMA 14-50 and mount
- The App
- Some direct guidance would have been nice too...
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Yay! I wish I could say more than that I'm happy that it's shipping and encouraged that a careful approach is now apparent.
I'll double check what DigiNow is sending, particularly the documentation, but the hardware install steps are solid, just mind them carefully and you should be fine. Seriously, keep instructions present and do your work methodically.
Dealers should be extremely knowledgeable at this point so hopefully most stories are uneventful.
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Wait, bike on just to start the charge, or bike on for the entire charge?
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Are we at the point yet where this is solid, or are we still in the first dozen installs? I am not a good early customer, but will happily put my money down when it's all out of beta.
Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk
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One question I have is: is the green / yellow cable a ground to connect to the frame? If so, is there a preferred place to connect it?
If you are doing a top box install you can ground to the fan case like this...
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20160827_222402_zpsdbeex8k1.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20160827_222402_zpsdbeex8k1.jpg.html)
But for a more permanent install Brandon recommends connecting to the J-bolt provided with the kit. An even better solution is to ground to the bike frame using a star washer after scrapping off some paint. Then cover up the connection with some dielectric grease to prevent corrosion. If you want to get really crazy you can also run a ground strap from the chassis of the charger to the same ground point on the bike frame.
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Thanks for the pointers! Brian, I know that you've been working on documentation, but I can't find them anywhere. Would you mind posting a link here? I really want to do this "by the book".
thanks
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Are we at the point yet where this is solid, or are we still in the first dozen installs? I am not a good early customer, but will happily put my money down when it's all out of beta.
First dozen installs, even though it's getting easier and I feel like I'm personally "out of beta". I'm glad you're interested; it's probably okay to wait a bit.
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Wait, bike on just to start the charge, or bike on for the entire charge?
Per Electric Cowboy above, the bike has to be on to start the charge and then can be off.
Keeping the bike on during the entire charge is required for some early installs like for Ben's trip. I don't see the relevant piece for Patrick's to act that way so Patrick is probably waiting to be able to turn the bike off during a charge.
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Thanks for the pointers! Brian, I know that you've been working on documentation, but I can't find them anywhere. Would you mind posting a link here? I really want to do this "by the book".
thanks
To be clear, I don't have explicit permission to publish on my own. What I've written is roughly "work for hire" (more like pro bono / in kind but the fact is it's their product). I'll send copies and CC DigiNow so that the communication loop is solid.
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Hi Brian,
I thought it was on a wiki somewhere and I had missed it. Can you send it to ptruchon@gmail.com I don't want to plug anything in until I've got some guidance. To clarify, I wasn't sent any "hardware install steps" from anyone.
Thanks
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I went ahead and set up (almost) everything:
- I drilled holes on the inside of the frame for the bracket and ran the wire to the controller (2013 DS).
- Next I wanted to tackle mounting the J-plug on the tank, but decided to drill a small hole first to see how much clearance there was.
- It looks pretty tight. Doug: how did you make it fit? Can the cable bend that much?
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- Finally, I went to test it.
- For now, I'm grounding to the frame until I can mount the plug permanently somewhere.
- Everything looks normal.
Time to go for a test ride tomorrow!
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Nice work, Patrick! Your test looks great.
It is very doubtful that you can place the J inlet in that very attractive center of the tank plastics. Mine is mounted halfway over the forward edge.
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- Finally, I went to test it.
- For now, I'm grounding to the frame until I can mount the plug permanently somewhere.
- Everything looks normal.
Time to go for a test ride tomorrow!
Looks good! This is a bit off topic, but is that the power cable rolled up in the hole through the frame? How did you fold the cable to get it in there? I've tried multiple times, but no matter how I wrap it up, it never wants to compress enough to fit in there. The hard ridge on the inside keeps catching on the plugs and prevents it from fully seating in the tube.
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Another off topic question, did you not qualify for the battery upgrade? If not you should inquire about it with ZERO
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Another off topic question, did you not qualify for the battery upgrade? If not you should inquire about it with ZERO
The upgrade recall appears to be a relatively slow process with a queue. Mine is still waiting and I'm within riding distance.
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I'm told my Supercharger is on the way! Woot!
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I'm officially a Super Charger! In honor of @benswing I used two J-1772 stations at the same time!!
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20160829_215037_zpsczysbnmd.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20160829_215037_zpsczysbnmd.jpg.html)
I used the J-1772 to three-way adapter to use my onboard charger for the second J-1772. I grounded the yellow wire to the J-bolt. Charge tank plastic should arrive tomorrow so I can clean up the install. The charger gets hot so I didn't leave the DigiNow control box on top of it for long.
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20160829_215007_zps2aavc5ht.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20160829_215007_zps2aavc5ht.jpg.html)
First Impressions:
I was originally planning to try and keep it flexible and do a top box install so I could use it to charge other batteries. Now I'm thinking the only reason not to install in the tank area is if you have the power tank or are planning to get one.
You definitely feel the weight with it in a top box but it's manageable.
You feel the weight when it's installed in the tank too but it's more manageable than in a top box.
I made a NEMA 14-50 to NEMA 5-15 adapter so that I can charge a little faster than the onboard from 120V outlets. I tested it to 1.6kW. Worked great! Although....now that I think about it...I didn't try to open the garage door while it was charging....better find the breaker box before I do any more testing. In theory it should be good to 1.8kW from a 15 amp 120 volt outlet but the voltage was a little low in the outlet in my garage so I was already drawing 15 amps at 1.6kW. You can dial it back as low as 500 watts...soooo....yeah....if there's anyone out there that wants to charge slower than onboard....this is your $3K solution!
I'll make adapters for other outlets soon (e.g. new/old dryer plugs).
I learned right off that just because there are two J1772 plugs doesn't mean 6.6kW per plug. Two plugs going to the same station share 6.6kW (at least at this location they did). Charge point wouldn't let me turn on the second plug at the same station anyway. In this case, after moving my bike a little I was able to just use a plug from a second station. I'm sure I should have known that already after watching all of @benswing's videos but I didn't.
Fast charging is a life changer. I can't wait to get out and play some more. My ODO is about to start going up a lot faster!
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20160829_215018_zpsfebeym4a.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20160829_215018_zpsfebeym4a.jpg.html)
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I'm officially a Super Charger! In honor of @benswing I used two J-1772 stations at the same time!!
Nicely done! I'm glad everything is working smoothly.
I was originally planning to try and keep it flexible and do a top box install so I could use it to charge other batteries. Now I'm thinking the only reason not to install in the tank area is if you have the power tank or are planning to get one.
Removing the Super Charger from the tank area is very easy, so it's probably best to just install it there and remove it when a Power Tank finally arrives for dealer install. I've swapped a unit for photos and testing in under a half hour.
I made a NEMA 14-50 to NEMA 5-15 adapter so that I can charge a little faster than the onboard from 120V outlets. I tested it to 1.6kW. Worked great! Although....now that I think about it...I didn't try to open the garage door while it was charging....better find the breaker box before I do any more testing. In theory it should be good to 1.8kW from a 15 amp 120 volt outlet but the voltage was a little low in the outlet in my garage so I was already drawing 15 amps at 1.6kW. You can dial it back as low as 500 watts...soooo....yeah....if there's anyone out there that wants to charge slower than onboard....this is your $3K solution!
I'll make adapters for other outlets soon (e.g. new/old dryer plugs).
Nice! My home electrics are ancient so I'm avoiding this for now.
I learned right off that just because there are two J1772 plugs doesn't mean 6.6kW per plug. Two plugs going to the same station share 6.6kW (at least at this location they did). Charge point wouldn't let me turn on the second plug at the same station anyway. In this case, after moving my bike a little I was able to just use a plug from a second station. I'm sure I should have known that already after watching all of @benswing's videos but I didn't.
ChargePoint can do this (turn on more than one plug at the same station) but you either need to get two differently-coded cards, OR use the mobile app after using your card to separately access the other plug. But it's nearly always better to activate two adjacent stations and run one cord from each.
Fast charging is a life changer. I can't wait to get out and play some more. My ODO is about to start going up a lot faster!
Same. If my project and work commitments weren't so high right now, I'd already have some trips logged.
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You can request extra cards (keyring style) from charge point ) I keep one on each keyring and a spare in my wallet
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2 cards is the way to go! Fun to see you fast charging! There are some Chargepoint stations that share 6.6kW and others that have 6.6kW for each plug, but it is wise not to max those out at the same time.
Can't wait to see photos and hear of more people traveling farther afield!!!
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I'm officially a Super Charger! In honor of @benswing I used two J-1772 stations at the same time!!
Mine should be here soon too. Can you walk us thru the setup using it externally? Did it come with instructions? I have a PT so it's top case for me.
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Great stuff! Thanks for the photos! Glad to see all you fellas getting your superchargers. Should mean mine is soon(TM)! [emoji14]
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Can't wait to see photos and hear of more people traveling farther afield!!!
First crawling...then walking...
It's actually a little sad that you would never know the beast that lies within just by looking at the bike. No modification required to the charge tank plastic. Minor modification to the J-plug that came with the DigiNow and then it fit perfectly.
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20160901_010344_zpsvlfmr735.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20160901_010344_zpsvlfmr735.jpg.html)
(http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w410/TheMrwilsn/IMG_20160901_023004_zpslc4wow4v.jpg) (http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/TheMrwilsn/media/IMG_20160901_023004_zpslc4wow4v.jpg.html)
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Sorry for the absence. I was out on a two-day trip. Will report on some findings later. For a quick overview see this stream of tweets (https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%23BCABEVtrip&src=typd) (start at the bottom and work your way up). But for now, a few direct replies:
It is very doubtful that you can place the J inlet in that very attractive center of the tank plastics. Mine is mounted halfway over the forward edge.
That makes a lot of sense! Excellent pictures. Thanks for sharing. I'm really glad I only drilled a small hole to measure clearance first. That'll be really easy to patch.
This is a bit off topic, but is that the power cable rolled up in the hole through the frame? How did you fold the cable to get it in there?
The first time I bent it into shape was right after charging so the cable was hot and flexible, since then, I never completely straighten it so that it keeps the same shape instead of bending and unbending. So I fold it in half first, then from the folded end (not the plug end), I fold at a length slightly shorter than then width of the compartment. It's useful that the plugs are in the middle of the cable when folded so they don't poke out. I realize this might shorten the life of the cable, but being able to store it there is just too convenient.
Another off topic question, did you not qualify for the battery upgrade? If not you should inquire about it with ZERO
Unfortunately I didn't. As soon as my dealership heard of the program, they contacted me saying that I might get a free battery upgrade, but they needed to confirm my VIN first. Turns out my specific bike is outside that VIN range. I guess they had different batches of 2013 batteries and mine was fine.
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Now some tips for everyone else getting their charger...
My experience has been that Brandon is incredibly helpful when it comes to troubleshooting problems, but the "mass"-communication as been pretty spotty.
- Before receiving my charger, I got an email from Hunter confirming the shipping address, time, and tracking number. Perfect.
- I didn't get any instructions or guidance regarding the install or usage though. Just the charger. Oops.
If that's the case for you too, here's what I recommend you ask for:
- The instructions that Brian wrote pro bono. Ask Brandon for them though as it's not fair to Brian to have to deal with customer service. I'm not sure why these are not simply posted online somewhere or sent along with the initial "we're shipping your charger" email.
- Get the instructions on using the App. It's web-based so all you need a is browser, but you'll need to know the WiFi SSID (easy enough to find) and the password (which is unique to your charger). Once connected to the charger, navigate to 192.168.0.1 (no "http://" or "www." in front). For me, having the App was absolutely essential in troubleshooting a problem I had with a few charging stations. Also: make sure you understand how to throttle the power to meet the station's maximum power (P = VI is your friend).
- Double check that you got everything you needed. I was missing the Nema 14-50 adapter, which is now in transit.
Again, while Brandon's one-on-one communication and help is amazing (considering how crazy busy the man must be), general instructions to the masses was somewhat lacking in my case. More of that would save him (and his amazing helpers) some time answer the same questions over and over I think.
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Thanks, Patrick! I'm limited in what I can say partly because I can't keep up to date with their decisions and can't speak for them, and I'm not entitled to say or publish just anything online about it. I think a little messaging would have gone a long way.
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Still waiting for a ship notice. Diginow was paid by dealer last week. Mildly annoyed that the communication from Diginow is a total void.
Seperately, Brandon is great to interact with for technical inquery, but no joy from the business side of things
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Oh, I'll say that creating an "app icon" for the URL is helpful for quick access. I bundle it on iOS with my Zero app and 10+ charging apps (thankfully I mostly only need 3).
I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a hybrid app through DigiNow or if I can scrounge up the time, mainly to provide a higher level interface with more persistent state.
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Looking at one the diginow charges wondering if Brandon could message me about using the charger for both my nissan leaf and the zero. Thanks
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Looking at one the diginow charges wondering if Brandon could message me about using the charger for both my nissan leaf and the zero. Thanks
It's capable of doing both, just that it will come programmed for your Zero, so the question will be, can it easily be reprogrammed for your leaf or is it a complex process. When you find out let us know, I'm hoping to get a Bolt in 2017. It's unclear what the onboard charger on that will be. If it's 10k, then the diginow won't be needed.
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I have a older 2011 leaf so it only charges at 3.6 kw max. 10 kw would be great 0-full in only 2.5 hours. Would make those days I forget to plug the car in the night before better so I wouldn't be a hour or more late to work.
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I have a older 2011 leaf so it only charges at 3.6 kw max. 10 kw would be great 0-full in only 2.5 hours. Would make those days I forget to plug the car in the night before better so I wouldn't be a hour or more late to work.
Yea, but does the leaf have a BMS and controller, aux port like the Zero that allows and adjusts to higher voltages, or will it simply charge at the 3.6 rate?
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I have a older 2011 leaf so it only charges at 3.6 kw max. 10 kw would be great 0-full in only 2.5 hours. Would make those days I forget to plug the car in the night before better so I wouldn't be a hour or more late to work.
Yea, but does the leaf have a BMS and controller, aux port like the Zero that allows and adjusts to higher voltages, or will it simply charge at the 3.6 rate?
This question feels really awkwardly-framed, so I'll give a poor but correct answer to hopefully unjam this.
All EVs have a BMS and controller. The EMotorWerks non-homologated product ( https://emotorwerks.com/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/dc-charging-systems/1657-mini-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/category_pathway-17 (https://emotorwerks.com/store-juicebox-ev-charging-stations/dc-charging-systems/1657-mini-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested/category_pathway-17) ) can target up to a 360V DC battery pack.
The only question is how difficult is it to hook them up and re-program the charger against it, without breaking either vehicle because you forgot to switch the programming every single time.
For what it's worth, appreciate the fact that you're asking for a capability that literally does not exist yet in any shipping product. All chargers are made/homologated to one vehicle, or they are generic DIY programmable, and not both.