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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JaimeC on November 25, 2016, 10:35:46 PM
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Math was NEVER a strong subject, and "Electrical Engineering" never even figured on my radar, but I'm hoping someone here can give me an idea.
I have a 2016 S model with the 13kWh battery. I know colder weather reduces the range on the bike to begin with, but I'm wondering how much more it would be reduced if I ran an electric vest?
Some details:
1) My commute is 34 miles round trip, mostly on the highway. On the highway, I put the bike into "ECO" mode and just hold the "throttle" wide open to never exceed 70 mph. I'd say my route is 30 miles highway, four miles surface streets. Off the highway, I flip back to "Custom" mode which gives me full torque, and 100% regen on throttle-off.
2) On the highway, I flatten myself down as much as I can force my 59 year old body to get as much of myself behind the little commuter screen.
3) I have an Aerostich Kanetsu Air-vantage electric vest. According to Aerostich, that vest draws 3 amps.
Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.
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Easy! Electric loads like this don't make a dent unless you ride very slowly or leave them on while the bike isn't running.
3A * 12V = 36W. You go through a charge in let's say 1 hour which is 11.4kW given the 11.4kWh nominal capacity.
In one hour, 36W consumes 36Wh which is 0.3% of 11400Wh the motor uses.
So, no big deal.
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Perfect, that's what I needed to know. :)
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Talking about cold weather, this is my first winter with my zero and I'm really suprised how good my battery is performing. Now morning temperatures are reaching the freezing point and suprisingly my range is not very much changed. Maybe a few km's. Really great. Still drive style is more range demanding than temperature..
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And of course no hassling with a choke or waiting until you're oil is warm, just turn the key and go.
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And of course no hassling with a choke or waiting until you're oil is warm, just turn the key and go.
In fairness, THAT issue was resolved decades ago with the invention of fuel injection. Every bike I've owned since my 1985 BMW K100 was basically "Turn the key, hit the button and go." Only caveat was ride it "gently" the first few miles until the oil, suspension fluids and tire carcasses came up to temperature.
By the way, the "suspension fluids and tire carcasses" thing is STILL a concern with a Zero. You may not have engine oil to worry about, but you should still wait a few miles before "getting on it."
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Talking about cold weather, this is my first winter with my zero and I'm really suprised how good my battery is performing. Now morning temperatures are reaching the freezing point and suprisingly my range is not very much changed. Maybe a few km's. Really great. Still drive style is more range demanding than temperature..
If your vehicle is stored indoors overnight, maybe the battery just has a reasonable starting temperature and stays warm from internal resistance while riding.
While I rode/lived in Seattle, my 13DS did lose range in winters (no more than 10%, but the 13's battery gauge is crude) but I suspect that was mostly from the dampness in the air (rain and fog) being too effective at cooling everything, myself included.
I'm considering keeping an insulating wrap of perhaps neoprene and in inner liner to handle touring in cold weather, inspired by the Aerostich FX battery cozy, just to keep air and moisture deflected while riding.
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I had an odd issue a few weeks ago riding home with my 2015 SR. I was unable to keep up with traffic after 5 or so miles, it slowed to probably 70MPH when I was giving it full throttle. Still had 70% battery, it was in the 30s out, I presume the wind chill and all was too much so it restricted power output? Never seen that in my two years of Zero riding.
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Maybe to cold for full power?
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If your vehicle is stored indoors overnight, maybe the battery just has a reasonable starting temperature and stays warm from internal resistance while riding.
No, My bike is just sitting outside, under a good cover and connected to the mains power. When I jumped on it this morning it was literally freezing, and a white layer of frost was covering the cover. I really cannot say it is performing less than in summertime. Its really performing well in the cold, plenty of power and no speed reduction. I also have still have the same range percentage left (54%) when I am arriving at my workspace as in summertime :-)
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... When I jumped on it this morning it was literally freezing, and a white layer of frost was covering the cover. I really cannot say it is performing less than in summertime. Its really performing well in the cold, plenty of power and no speed reduction. ...
Temperature around freezing and no speed reduction?
When the temperature is around the freezing point my 2016 SR reduces the top speed to something by 141...145 km/h.
I thought that is normal. The manual says so (7.15).
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Ah, I'm always in ECO mode, so max speed is 115km/h.. Maybe thats why
But still.. I'm very surprised about the cold weather performance of the battery, in terms of range..
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... When I jumped on it this morning it was literally freezing, and a white layer of frost was covering the cover. I really cannot say it is performing less than in summertime. Its really performing well in the cold, plenty of power and no speed reduction. ...
Temperature around freezing and no speed reduction?
When the temperature is around the freezing point my 2016 SR reduces the top speed to something by 141...145 km/h.
I thought that is normal. The manual says so (7.15).
If you ride hard and fast when it is fresh off the charger you can heat the battery to where there is no power reduction.
The warmer and higher SOC you're at the more power the battery can put out. If its very cold the battery will lose its ability to put out full power as the state of charge drops low.
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Thanks,
nice to know.
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If you ride hard and fast when it is fresh off the charger you can heat the battery to where there is no power reduction.
The warmer and higher SOC you're at the more power the battery can put out. If its very cold the battery will lose its ability to put out full power as the state of charge drops low.
Good to know. So conceivably, I could park the bike at the office (where I have no place to plug in) and discover at the end of the day that I have less range than I THOUGHT when I initially parked it...
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If you ride hard and fast when it is fresh off the charger you can heat the battery to where there is no power reduction.
The warmer and higher SOC you're at the more power the battery can put out. If its very cold the battery will lose its ability to put out full power as the state of charge drops low.
Good to know. So conceivably, I could park the bike at the office (where I have no place to plug in) and discover at the end of the day that I have less range than I THOUGHT when I initially parked it...
technically the state of charge of the battery is the same... but because a battery discharging is a chemical process, the process will occur slower, with higher resistance.
so if you wack the throttle wide open, you wont have the same acceleration, but your range would be similar. That said, you shouldnt notice, because your tires are also cold, so you shouldnt be holding the throttle wide open anyway.
The range you lose is only from the higher resistance... as you try to draw more than it can supply in its chilled state, it will have resistance. that also means it will heat up. as it heats up, it works better.... so by the time your tires warm up, your battery will be close to where it is under warmer weather conditions.
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Unlike electric cars like the Volt & ELR which gauges the battery by miles, the Zero's cluster shows percentage. Even though you can have a 100% in both winter and summer, the bike will have considerable different range capability.
Unlike the Chevy Volt and BMW I3 /I8 which uses A/C pumps to cool and heat with the aid of grid heaters to heat the pack when needed, the Zero is like the Nissan Leaf with no cell conditioning, so you can expect to see a substantial drop of around 20% depending on how cold the pack reaches. Since the pack has less efficiency when cold, you can notice a drop in both performance and top speed.
When ever possible - try to store the bike in a conditioned area and another advantage is to use a 110v timer so the pack finishes charging and balancing of the cells 30-60 minutes before you depart.
What works best for batteries is to move to South Florida! LOL
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What works best for batteries is to move to South Florida! LOL
But the summer heat can be even worse for the battery than our winter cold...
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Summer heat will reduce power to the motor to prevent overheating. I've never had problems sustaining freeway speeds, and I've ridden daily at ~100F. The cold is interesting, garage kept at home and at work, but when it's freezing out, the battery temp drops fast at 80MPH. Half way home I started having reduced power due to the cold, to where I couldn't keep up with traffic. Only happened the once, never seen it in past winters.
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Fortunately we don't get THAT hot here on Long Island... HOWEVER Zero does warn against parking in direct sunlight on hot days as it will hasten battery degradation. I wonder about people living in Las Vegas, NV or Phoenix, AZ though.
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Generally on the highway I keep the bike in "Eco" mode so as to not exceed 70 mph. Even though our posted limits here are still 55mph, I've passed Troopers in a full tuck at that speed and they ignore me. One day last summer on my way home from work my speed started to drop off. I checked the motor temperature on the smart phone app and it was reading 160. According to the manual, the motor controller is supposed to cut power around 140 but maybe that limit was raised for the 2016 with IPM motors? In any event, I got out of the HOV lane and into the regular flow of traffic to let the motor cool down a bit "just in case."
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My DSR is outside under a tarp, and I have commuted a few times now with outside temps around -2C (26 F for the non-metrics around here) and I use about as much for my daily commute as with temps above freezing, about 31% for 52 km's (32 mile) of highway use @ 100km/h (62Mph). When home the remaining SOC is about 38%, and the temp sensor of the bike indicates 28C (82F). I'd sure love to see the battery temperature when I drive, but then i'd need to use some sort of CAN module of sorts...
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Lithium batteries are a lot like humans and perform best at around 72-75 degrees - like us, lithum cells slow down when too hot or too cold.
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Lithium batteries are a lot like humans and perform best at around 72-75 degrees - like us, lithum cells slow down when too hot or too cold.
Well the BMS slows them down when too hot, but lithium batteries perform best when they are as hot as you can get them. Most manufacturers set this at 120 to 140 degrees F. The problem is they degrade 2 times faster for every 10 degrees hotter they get. So its a trade off and to protect the cells, the BMS limits the maximum temperature they allow. If you were going to a drag race you would want to heat up your batteries as hot as you can and charge them full before a run. The internal resistance goes down the hotter they are and so can deliver more power.
But this is also why when cold the internal resistance is extremely high and max power discharge capabilities are severely limited
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I'm considering keeping an insulating wrap of perhaps neoprene and in inner liner to handle touring in cold weather, inspired by the Aerostich FX battery cozy, just to keep air and moisture deflected while riding.
Brian, cool - let us know what you try and what you end up with.
I'm thinking about something like this, too - maybe some system that will also let it warm up in the sun, when parked.
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What about something like this?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/291734761739 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/291734761739)
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Oh, fun. I was thinking either non-powered or DC like this
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1481 (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1481)
but I like the size of yours.
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One of the Brammo owners did something similar. It wasn't heated iirc but even keeping the wind of it should make an impact.
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I'm considering keeping an insulating wrap of perhaps neoprene and in inner liner to handle touring in cold weather, inspired by the Aerostich FX battery cozy, just to keep air and moisture deflected while riding.
Brian, cool - let us know what you try and what you end up with.
I'm thinking about something like this, too - maybe some system that will also let it warm up in the sun, when parked.
After riding my 13DS in a cold downpour and clearly performing worse for it, I think I'll be trying this soon.
I think the recipe is simple: very big sheet of the kind of neoprene used in wetsuits for the body area, punch some holes and make grommets for attachment points, and wrap it around like an apron to hook bungee loops around either the frame or the crash bars on mine.
Possibly a second smaller sheet between the top of the battery and the carrier bracket for the tank area, but that clearance is only 3mm and might want to handle moisture collected better.
The heaters linked are intriguing for sure but I'm not sure how they'd apply well yet. Maybe tuck one between a side plastic panel?
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My coworker is having a hard time getting his FX to 65 MPH. He says that he is required to tuck to go from 60 to 65 MPH. Is that right?
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My coworker is having a hard time getting his FX to 65 MPH. He says that he is required to tuck to go from 60 to 65 MPH. Is that right?
If he is going uphill on hwy 17 from Santa Cruz to Scotts Valley and parks the bike outside overnight that is extremely possible. Plus if it's a 2013-2015 it is more likely. The batteries got a little stronger in 2016 for the FX. But this chance increases when cold also the lower the SOC is. Closer to 100% and the more power that is available.
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My coworker is having a hard time getting his FX to 65 MPH. He says that he is required to tuck to go from 60 to 65 MPH. Is that right?
I definitely experience this when the state of charge is below 50% on my FXS 6.5. If it's the 3.3, it could happen sooner.
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My coworker is having a hard time getting his FX to 65 MPH. He says that he is required to tuck to go from 60 to 65 MPH. Is that right?
I definitely experience this when the state of charge is below 50% on my FXS 6.5. If it's the 3.3, it could happen sooner.
Is this intentional behavior, or is a half-empty battery just not capable of pushing the FX any faster? My 2015 6.5 won't go over 70 mph below 60% and like yours, won't go over 65 mph below 50%.
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Yes, he in intentionally tucking.
My coworker says he has a 13 mile commute from Aptos to Scotts Valley on his ~2013 or 14 FX. That is about a 900 ft of vertical climbing and he leaves his garage with 100% and gets to work with 65% indicated SOC. He says that he has a hard time under 70% SOC and that is when he struggles to maintain 65 MPH and requires tucking. He charges at work.
The power and range margin of the SR is good to have.
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Now I feel better about my bike. About the same commute but only about 200 ft elevation change. Fun on the interstate going in, not so much coming home.
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Getting back to my ORIGINAL post: I no longer have the 2016 S, I now have a 2018 one. I've had a power plug I'd bought from Aerostich YEARS ago that I never used; it works in both the BMW style socket (also sold by Powerlet for other brands) as well as a standard cigarette lighter socket.
I FINALLY replaced the BMW-only plug on my vest with this one and tried it out yesterday. Brian was right; I didn't really notice any appreciable affect on my range despite the temperatures last night being in the 20s, and the vest running at full power. I can now use the vest with both my K1200LT and my Zero without worry. Thanks, everyone!