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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Hansi on February 27, 2017, 06:29:13 AM
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I was very disappointed when Zero removed the DC charging option, I've been waiting for them to re-add it (or equal speed AC) ever since. In my opinion this should be Zeros number 1 priority.
When do you think Zero will (re)add faster charging option?
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You're assigning more agency or capabilities to Zero than they deserve. If they can't support it affordably, they won't.
It seems from external observation and signals they've given off about the cost of certifying equipment they ship that they are going to let the aftermarket handle this for a while.
No, I don't like it, either, but that's what we have to deal with. It's not like their solutions are ever cheaper than third-party, anyway.
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They have to increase the battery voltage first. Thats going to be some major reengineering.
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http://diginow.it/super-charger-for-zero-motorcycle.php
Support those who are making it happen with or without Zero!
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Zero's main priority right now is making the bike less expensive to produce each year and to try to pass those savings along to the consumer. So fast charging would take them in the more expensive direction. And they feel most Zero owners only use their bikes for commuting and won't ever venture more than 40 or 50 miles from their house. And if they ask current Zero owners only, most will say that. Because that's all they can do right now. Also most who bought a Zero already, weren't the type who needed to go very far anyway.
Everyone who is waiting to buy a Zero because they do need to charge faster, wasn't included in their demographic sample so they got the answer they were looking for even though it isn't accurate or representative of the average motorcycle rider.
If a Zero could have 30 minute charging, they would have to run the production line in 3 shifts 24 hours a day, year round to keep up with demand. But perhaps they aren't ready for that and don't want to sell more bikes so are holding off on offering faster charging because that would mean an instant increase in demand and sales and they have to prepare supply lines or something first perhaps.
Go ahead, sense the sarcasm in that last paragraph if you care to. ;)
Experiencing faster charging is like indoor plumbing. Once you experience it, you will gladly pay more to have it. However if you haven't you don't see exactly how good it is, even though you think you do. In fact some are like "no I'm good going outside to poop, thanks" while thinking to themselves, "who would want to do that in their house? That would make the whole house smell like crap!" (Read: I'm ok charging overnight in 8 hours, but thanks)
I think it's fair to say most of the people making the decisions at Zero about fast charging have never ridden a Zero more than 200 miles in a single day. If they would only "poop inside" just once, they would see the benefit. I got my friend Luke hooked on AC charging fast about a year ago, and now if you tried to take his fast charger away he would fight you. Yet 5 years ago he said AC fast charging on a Zero would never be worthwhile. But since he "pooped inside" he saw the light, even though he thought he saw the light before. Its one of those things you have to experience just once, yet those that haven't, will tell you they can do the math in their head and understand it perfect. It doesn't work that way. I'd love it if they gave the engineering team a week paid off and all they had to do is ride 1000 miles that week on a Zero.
By Monday the following week, fast charging would be the main priority because the lightbulb they could swear was lit before finally went fully bright and they could see everything from both ends of the tunnel instead of just one.
But before they do that, they need to get the production line ready to run 24 hours a day. It's going to need it.
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Terry's perspective is absolutely right. Fast charging is hard to decide to pay for, but absolutely unthinkable to do without once you have it.
I remember when I first told Zero (late last year, at my first factory visit after moving to the area) that my goal was to ride 400 miles per day, and got pretty shocked responses. The Supercharger (at full scale/price) does that, and repeatably. I'm nearing 18000 miles on my DSR now at 13 months of ownership.
Now that I have my Supercharger working smoothly, there's no going back for me. I do want to push that travel-to-charge ratio further with fairings, and even the fairings I'm setting up to transfer to another bike if necessary, just to make sure I can still travel if something goes wrong.
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Terry: I love the bathroom analogy!
I would take it to the next level and compare it to using the bathroom in a nice warm and cozy house or using the outhouse in Alaska in the middle of winter 😂. Having travelled long distance via the onboard slow charger, I choose to never revisit that whenever possible.
Another good way to look at it is with phones. Anyone have a fast charging phone? Compare that to the speed that older phones used to charge. Once you have fast charging, going back to the old way of slow charging seems like going backwards. Shorter battery life per a charge is less of an issue depending how fast you can charge. Compare the OnePlus dash charging to other "fast" charging phones. It makes a difference.
While, of course, I have no doubt people can justify that they see no need. But it's a really addictive convenience once you experience it! Basically, who wants an old flip phone when we have smartphones. Sure there are a few who do, but I would wager 99% of people would get physical before giving up their smartphones.
Btw rolling with two chargers (onboard and supercharger) is definitely the way to go! Especially if one fails 😉
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I have a different point of view. I love my Zero for commuting and local travel, but for long distances I prefer to ride an IC motorcycle at this time. They are still cheaper than electric to purchase, gas is also still relatively cheap, you can pick up a perfectly serviceable used IC motorcycle for just a couple of thousand dollars, everyone knows how to work on them and keep them running, parts are available just about everywhere and you can ride an IC motorcycle anywhere in the world and not worry about finding a charging station. If you only ride electric, then a fast charger is essential, but for the price of a fast charging setup, lots of used IC bikes are available that will get you down the road. Things may change in the future, but that is the way I see it now - says someone who already has 5 other (IC) motorcycles to ride.
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I have a different point of view. I love my Zero for commuting and local travel, but for long distances I prefer to ride an IC motorcycle at this time. They are still cheaper than electric to purchase, gas is also still relatively cheap, you can pick up a perfectly serviceable used IC motorcycle for just a couple of thousand dollars, everyone knows how to work on them and keep them running, parts are available just about everywhere and you can ride an IC motorcycle anywhere in the world and not worry about finding a charging station. If you only ride electric, then a fast charger is essential, but for the price of a fast charging setup, lots of used IC bikes are available that will get you down the road. Things may change in the future, but that is the way I see it now - says someone who already has 5 other (IC) motorcycles to ride.
These are all true, but you're not speaking to the point at all. Electric motorcycle travel is something qualitatively different and it is undesirable to return to IC travel once electric motorcycle travel works well (individually).
Again with the analogy, it's hard to convince yourself to make investments like this but impossible to give it up willingly. And collectively we're all holding back which makes the adoption landscape work as you have put it.
Vision is part of what changes this situation. And the legwork that makes these machines easy to work on and commodities on the road. Like maintaining the wiki so that a random dealer can read it to work on your bike...
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3 of the 10 recent topics are about DIY faster charging, 4 out of 15.. Hopefully Zero read this forum and takes the hint :)
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3 of the 10 recent topics are about DIY faster charging, 4 out of 15.. Hopefully Zero read this forum and takes the hint :)
At a recent Zero HQ visit by the Bay Area electric motorcycle riding group, we heard (noncommital) hints from more than one public-facing person that they not only know this but are making a plan.
Reading between the lines (I have no special information, just hear a lot of people make hints over time from different perspectives), I expect a plan to externalize the implementation (let the aftermarket fill it in) but upgrade the bikes to support this better.
I think there's a very valid concern hinted that the contactor hardware would need an upgrade of some kind, which indicates that a certain amount of the upgrade might unfortunately be gated on buying a 2018+ MY bike or being especially intrepid in hacking one's own bike beyond warrantee.
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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
I think it's a matter of peak amps vs. continuous. When riding you get high amp for short bursts. For charging you want to maintain high amps which generates a lot of heat.
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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
I think it's a matter of peak amps vs. continuous. When riding you get high amp for short bursts. For charging you want to maintain high amps which generates a lot of heat.
There's only one contactor I'm aware of per BMS (a power pack has one and a Power Tank unit has one).
Even so, the contactor is firmware-controlled as far as I can tell. The typical long delay action on 1C charging is about 2 minutes; there's a short delay limit of some kind but I'm unsure what that's set at. Whether sustained driving exceeds that, I'm not exactly sure, but different limits could be based on current direction. I do know that the 1C input limit applies while not in charging mode.
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Isn't the contactor rated at at least driving amps? Or is the charging contactor a different one than the driving contactor? And, in that case, the contactor should be at least 125A since the fuse is at 100A?
I think it's a matter of peak amps vs. continuous. When riding you get high amp for short bursts. For charging you want to maintain high amps which generates a lot of heat.
There's only one contactor I'm aware of per BMS (a power pack has one and a Power Tank unit has one).
Even so, the contactor is firmware-controlled as far as I can tell. The typical long delay action on 1C charging is about 2 minutes; there's a short delay limit of some kind but I'm unsure what that's set at. Whether sustained driving exceeds that, I'm not exactly sure, but different limits could be based on current direction. I do know that the 1C input limit applies while not in charging mode.
I've heard that each brick in the monolith has it's own BMS and contactor. It certainly makes sense that the bricks for the FX/FXS would each have their own contactor since you can run with just one brick and you can charge off the bike so it would make sense for each brick to have it's own contactor.
For the monolith I'm not sure but regardless I was talking about the main contactor that is used to connect/disconnect the battery to the charger and controller as you pointed out. Just using hypothetical numbers, the contactor could be rated for 1000 amps for 30 seconds, 500 amps for 2 minutes and 200 amps continuous. So, for the controller it's fine because you don't go over 200 amps for long....the controller is also spec'ed at 30 seconds, 2 minutes and continuous values which vary depending on which controller you have in your bike. For charging it's also fine because the current limit is 1C which is less than the hypothetical 200 amp limit even for bikes with a power tank. But going past 1C may require a contactor that has a higher continuous rating.
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How have you guys been managing the 1C charging? With a splitter to use 2 separate J1772 stations? I was under the impression J1772 could only do 6 or 7 kW. Or are there more powerful stations you guys use, like the Tesla destination chargers?
It's difficult to find AC chargers in NZ that are over 32a, and the majority of public chargers here are DC :-\
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How have you guys been managing the 1C charging? With a splitter to use 2 separate J1772 stations? I was under the impression J1772 could only do 6 or 7 kW. Or are there more powerful stations you guys use, like the Tesla destination chargers?
It's difficult to find AC chargers in NZ that are over 32a, and the majority of public chargers here are DC :-\
Yes, for more than 6.6kW in the US two J-plug are used.
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Chargers over here are usually between 11-43kW.
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Yes most locations have at least 2 J plugs. All new chargepoint stations have 2 level 2 ports. Most installations have 10-20 stations so between 20 and 40 J plugs are available. Yesterday riding back from Farasis I stopped at Pacific Commons in Fremont to have lunch and used both J plugs from 1 station. There were 10 other stations in that same parking row, and 10 others a few rows over.
I would like to see standard available accessories to support up to 4 J plug charging (24 kW) with up to 2C charging at the low SOC range if the battery is already warm. The only engineers at Zero or anywhere else who aren't thinking this path are the ones who haven't tried it, that I can promise. Because it is so simple and easy. At least 50 times easier than trying to gain compatibility with DC Fast charging stations.
The other reason multiple AC stations make more sense than DC charging for now? (next 5-10 years perhaps) is because there are very limited DC charging stations, and all the electric cars on the road are fighting to use them. We don't have to compete to use multiple J1772 plugs. Everywhere I go I always stop in places with 10 or more plugs and at least 4 next to each other are always available.
Although I've been saying this for over 5 years now. It might take Zero a while to hear but at least you can get up to 1C charging from the aftermarket now, I carry 4 DigiNow Superchargers that you can order from Hollywood Electrics and can charge at 13.2 kW from a single ChargePoint station (using both plugs).
Here are 2 pictures from yesterday:
https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/photos/a.1034679129910906.1073741829.1033979893314163/1523539721024842/ (https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/photos/a.1034679129910906.1073741829.1033979893314163/1523539721024842/)
https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/photos/a.1034679129910906.1073741829.1033979893314163/1523497724362375/ (https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/photos/a.1034679129910906.1073741829.1033979893314163/1523497724362375/)
You can see 2 cords going from 1 station to the bike. And there were 20 stations like that in the shopping center. This is the easy solution.
As time goes on, shopping centers all over will have this setup, and shopping centers are in almost every major town. When I go to LA I stop in Woodland park to top off about 30 miles outside LA and they just installed 40 ChargePoint Level 2 J1772 Charging stations at the Westfield Valley mall. When I go to the Bay Area from Santa Cruz at Santana Row Valley Fair Shopping Center in San Jose they now have 56 Level 2 Charging stations, where for the last 5 years they had only 2 plugs. So the property owner went from 2 to 56. Think about that. This wouldn't happen if it didn't make financial sense to do. Attracting EV owners to your shopping center where the longer they charge the more money they spend in your stores? Seriously a no brainer! It may take some time but this will eventually happen everywhere.
The number of locations with 2 or more Level 2 J1772 plugs is about 100:1 vs DC fast charging stations (CHAdeMO and SAE Combo) and 5 years from now perhaps still 50:1 (more DC chargers will be going in but not at the rate J1772 is going in) Which one would you rather be able to use? ;)
I think there are about 20 or 30 of you who now (in the past month) are now charging with dual J1772 plugs with the DigiNow Superchargers. And I have a feeling most people on this forum will probably be charging with dual plugs and the superchargers soon. It makes it so easy to travel anywhere you want to go and not ever worry about anything.
I've been using 2 J plugs for almost 5 years, Ben Rich started doing it last year, LiveForPhysics, Brandon, Jeremiah, Brian Rice, ToGo, Shadow, Anton, Chase and others are all now double J plugging too!! For you guys or anyone else who is double J plugging, how do you like it? And here's the real question...would you ever go back to using just one? ;)
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Do you have some more shots of that tail rack?
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Wouldn't battery deterioration become an issue at more than 2C? Or is Farasis supporting the 2C charging?
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Holy cow, Terry! That was an epic response. Ok, I need to find more J-stations here ;D
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...For you guys or anyone else who is double J plugging, how do you like it? And here's the real question...would you ever go back to using just one? ;)
If I could reliably get a 1C-worth rate for my battery system out of every station I plugged into, using a single connection, then sure it would be nice to not have to jack about with multiple power connections.
As it is I found that in urban areas there's enough double-station access to plug in to, you just have to spend some time trial-and-error to map out where those locations are.
Without concern of plugging in one or multiple sources of power, the capability to max out the charging power from the station you are plugged into is critically important to using your time effectively. Even if you are just plugging in using the snickers (what I heard someone call the onboard charger "Gonna be awhile? Grab a ...") it doesn't charge as effectively as instead using one module of SCv2 from the same 110Vac power source. However if you have two-module SCv2 that will max out most charging stations you will encounter in the USA, and be compatible with the S/DS battery thermal limitations even in most hot weather climates.
Every FX owner should own an SCv2 one-module, and every DS/S owner an SCv2 two-module, and if you get the PowerTank option then you should think about upgrading to a more aerodynamic fairing along with an update to a four-module or five-module SCv2 configuration.
For those prices at the upper range of things you'd better really love motorcycling because the Tesla Model 3 at $35k and easy access to charging on the Tesla Supercharging network is very competitive.
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They have to increase the battery voltage first. Thats going to be some major reengineering.
I don't know that it will. It looks like, with some signaling development, that Diginow SCv2 may be able to take high voltage DC input.
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How have you guys been managing the 1C charging? With a splitter to use 2 separate J1772 stations? I was under the impression J1772 could only do 6 or 7 kW. Or are there more powerful stations you guys use, like the Tesla destination chargers?
It's difficult to find AC chargers in NZ that are over 32a, and the majority of public chargers here are DC :-\
Yes, for more than 6.6kW in the US two J-plug are used.
Or NEMA 14-50, like Teslas do at RV parks.
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I would love to see Zero offer onboard rapid charging, but it sounds like regulatory issues are in the way right now, especially for Europe. Aftermarket is the way to go right now, but Zero needs to solve the rapid-charging problem.
Before rapid charging, I was limited in how far I could ride, and I was correspondingly limited in how much and to whom I could recommend an electric motorcycle. That's gone now.
The diginow 6.6kw solution is very solid, and the dual j-plug 9.9kw config works well, with some caveats. ((We can discuss those in another thread if you want to.))
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Wouldn't battery deterioration become an issue at more than 2C? Or is Farasis supporting the 2C charging?
Word is that the cells are showing 3C wear as the same as 1C! So, one would hope future packs would charge faster : - ). It'll be a lot easier to justify a trade-up if I can charge in 20 minutes ! You listening, Zero?
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I've been using 2 J plugs for almost 5 years, Ben Rich started doing it last year, LiveForPhysics, Brandon, Jeremiah, Brian Rice, ToGo, Shadow, Anton, Chase and others are all now double J plugging too!! For you guys or anyone else who is double J plugging, how do you like it? And here's the real question...would you ever go back to using just one? ;)
My story is very simple.
I quite literally bought my bike in 2016 because I knew 1C was becoming a thing. I've been eyeing Zero for years and that was it, that was my biggest decision factor.
A single 3.3 kW unit completely changed how I use my SR and was probably one of best decisions I've made. "Probably" because once I experienced what "dub jay" actually means in real-life terms (after ironing out few early issues as I was the first person to get SC v2 at 1C), it makes as big of a difference as going from snickers to 3.3 unit does.
It's not even a question of would I ever go back at charging with one unit. This is the only was it can be.
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Yup, I think eventually every Zero will have a "dub jay" solution, and as the C rate charging increases for the cells I think accessory options that allow for "quad jay's" will become just as common. Even 3 years ago I was "quad jay" charging all the way to Mexico and back for my Iron Butt run and there is an order of magnitude or more locations with quad J plugs available now then there was in 2014.
Reason is when digging up concrete, running conduit and having an electrical contractor come out, the cost per station goes down the more stations you install at the same time. This is why most new locations have multiple installations or entire rows of level 2 chargers. On the way to Sonoma Raceway a couple weeks ago to see the Hollywood Electrics racing team I stopped at Target in Sausalito and there was a row of 10 stations with dual J plugs each. If you park in the middle and have a couple extension cables you could access 132,000 watts continuous in a matter of seconds pretty easily. Just sayin. ;)
The other advantage to the new installations is travelling with a bunch of Zero's as a group. This way 10 Zero's can all travel together and each charge with Dub Jay's at up to 13,200 watts each. At other locations some should stop early and others with powertanks go further and stagger charging until they can meet up at the next large shopping center. A little planning with a charging map is all that's needed.
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Seems pretty unpractical to me as an European to keep on using those J-plugs... Where 6kW is 0.5C for most Zero's out there, for electric cars it's a puny charge. Imagine having to fill up you'r 60kW battery from those points...
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Seems pretty unpractical to me as an European to keep on using those J-plugs... Where 6kW is 0.5C for most Zero's out there, for electric cars it's a puny charge. Imagine having to fill up you'r 60kW battery from those points...
Why would you use J-plugs in Europe? Mennekes is the standard here and it has so much more power than a J-plug because it is 3-phase.
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Seems pretty unpractical to me as an European to keep on using those J-plugs... Where 6kW is 0.5C for most Zero's out there, for electric cars it's a puny charge. Imagine having to fill up you'r 60kW battery from those points...
6kw is common, because of the current electrical layout in the US.. its easy and cheap to install.
but its not the limit of the J plug.
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Here in the UK I think we're limited to 6.6kW charging due to the types of charging stations we have. Some of them do have dual Mennekes sockets but you'd need a separate card (and therefore a second subscription) to use them. I get the impression that using two J plugs is a lot easier in the States. I'm disappointed by the rate of progress our charging infrastructure is making. Our government is rubbish.
I didn't know Mennekes was capable of 3 phase charging until reading this thread as I've only ever come across 7kW posts. I should have realised though, because I think some electric cars only have an A.C. fast charging solution, but go up to 21kW.
I've also heard of 43kW A.C. fast charging. Is this also via a Mennekes plug?
I think we're still in the first generation days as far as Zero and their electrical systems go. I take Terry's excellent points around the availability of rapid chargers and how it will be a long time before D.C. charging becomes viable.
I hope that Zero can build a foundation for massive growth over the next year. Get the European distribution centre up and running properly, put some proper systems in place for customer service, keep improving on reliability, keep reducing the sticker price and so on. As sales improve and mark my words, they will, Zero can start developing the following:
High voltage battery pack and much more powerful motor. Torque is fine, but it would be nice to have litre bike performance.
Aerodynamics for a touring model. If Erasmo can do it, Zero should be able to.
A new BMS with rapid D.C. charging built in.
Active cooling for the battery pack. 2-3C won't be possible without it, I would think, especially with the cell density required on a motorcycle.
If there's one thing I've learnt after following Zero for the last four years, it's that they are very good at understanding what is practical to develop with their existing resources. All of the above is difficult. It is easy to think otherwise because car manufacturers have already done it. In fact they incorporated it all into their first generation products. Zero couldn't because they only have a tiny fraction of the development money a car manufacturer has.
I know I'm trotting out stuff that many of you already know, but I hope it helps some newer members.
As much as I appreciate and respect all the great developments in the fast A.C. charging space over the last year or so, I do believe charging times have to get down to 20 minutes before mass market adoption occurs. Tesla knew this from the start. Zero probably know it too, but must address other priorities first. Price and reliability being right at the top of the list. Followed very closely by customer service.
An outsider wouldn't understand why people would have to waste valuable space carrying around charging equipment. They won't understand why it costs so much money and why it still takes at least an hour to charge.
I would love to hear from Justin if he's got time to read and post to this thread. His 2015 SR with powertank must be ripe for a 6.6kW fast charger setup. With around 120 miles of range, he shouldn't have to stop until lunchtime. A nice long lunch should be enough to charge for the rest of the day. If taking it steady. I can quite easily enjoy a couple of hours of motorcycling with my range of 65 miles. I don't really understand people wanting to ride 400 miles a day on their bikes. I've had enough after 300 miles. 250 is plenty unless a lot of it is spent on motorways and dual carriageways.
As a commuter with little time for riding at weekends (kids), I do find it difficult to justify the cost of even the cheapest units, like the Elcon.
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The mennekes type 2 plug can handle as much as 43 kW. This is achieved by delivering 63 Amps 3 phase 230V.
Overview of available power :
1 phase 230V 16A : 3.7 kW
1 phase 230V 32A : 7.2 kW (haven't seen one of these yet but should be possibe)
3 phase 3x230V 16A : 11 kW
3 phase 3x230V 32A : 22 kW
3 phase 3x230V 63A : 43 kW
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Here in the UK I think we're limited to 6.6kW charging due to the types of charging stations we have. Some of them do have dual Mennekes sockets but you'd need a separate card (and therefore a second subscription) to use them. I get the impression that using two J plugs is a lot easier in the States. I'm disappointed by the rate of progress our charging infrastructure is making. Our government is rubbish.
I didn't know Mennekes was capable of 3 phase charging until reading this thread as I've only ever come across 7kW posts. I should have realised though, because I think some electric cars only have an A.C. fast charging solution, but go up to 21kW.
The Zoe goes up to 43kW.
Are you sure about that? Most (semi)public chargers that I see in the UK are at least 11kW. Normally only the less accessible places are fitted just single phase, or sometimes small businesses where the people that work there have 8 hours to charge anyway so those are more home-style chargers.
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It's just my exposure Erasmo. Probably because my car uses CHAdeMO and A.C. up to 7kW. Some of charging posts are as low as 3kW and still have a Mennekes socket.
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Do you happen to own a Leaf?
It doesn't matter how powerful the charging station is, if your car is equipped with a charger that only uses one phase you have two phases contributing nothing.
And yes, some single phase stations are power wise nothing more than glorified wall outlets but you still can use them with the same plug and make use of the back-end that comes with it. This is mostly done at home installations where more power demands additional (costly) changes to the home installation or in a parking lot that only had cables laid for a few street lights.
At home it shouldn't matter that much because normally those vehicles have all night to charge, and for the few public chargers that only provide that much, it is better than nothing and even there you should be able to do a quick topup to get to a near station that has more power if you're in a pinch.
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Thanks Erasmo.
It's a Kia Soul EV.
I think the only high power A.C. chargers I've come across are at service stations and attached to the same unit that provides CHAdeMO or CCS. Even then I'm not sure because a BMW i3 owner had to plug into the Mennekes cable one day and only got 5 kWh in half an hour. It must have been an 11kW unit.
I get the impression that the continent is much better serviced by high power A.C.
CCS coverage isn't as good either. If a service station has two rapid chargers, invariably only one of them supports CCS. CHAdeMO is always supported on rapids in the UK. I wouldn't want to have a car that uses the CCS standard in the UK.
I keep hearing that the second generation of rapid charging is going to be deployed soon in the UK. Probably in the form of 150kW CHAdeMO. Apparently my Kia already supports CHAdeMO up to 100kW, but I hate to think what that will do to the cells in a 27kWh battery pack. The only active cooling is a fan in the boot that comes on when the cells get warm. It draws air through the pack which can also warm them during winter.
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Ah the Soul, nice EV but indeed only single phase AC charging.
Yes the infrastructure here is a bit better suited indeed, almost every household has 3 phase electricity so there are plenty of opportunities to install proper charging stations. But good news for you, the Electric Highway has some competition now, Fastned is coming to the UK!
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I didn't know that Fastned was coming to the UK, thanks again Erasmo!
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Why would you use J-plugs in Europe? Mennekes is the standard here and it has so much more power than a J-plug because it is 3-phase.
Exactly, if you read my question a bit different, I'm asking the same question. Why is my bike fitted with a puny J1772 instead of the more potent Mennekes? Probably because j1772 is a standard in the US and you can't charge any faster then 3,8kW (On paper) anyway... And the adapter is included anyway ;)
Great advantage of having the Mennekes on the bike is that we could be using Fastned without adapters....
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As Terry mentioned charging with multiple J plugs is the best! Last summer I cut my charging time down to about 45 minutes for most of my charging stops while going across the country to the four corners of the United States.
However, I must say that on my test ride on an Energica Eva it was particularly nice to charge using CCS. I hope zero is seriously looking into increasing the voltage of their bikes so they can use the exponentially growing system of DC fast charging. But that's for another thread.
Multiple J plugs are currently easier to find then a CCS or CHAdeMO fast charger.
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Multiple J plugs are currently easier to find then a CCS or CHAdeMO fast charger.
Here in Germany pretty much all the highways are covered by a CCS network. The network is growing fast since the EU made CCS and Mennekes a standard and the situation is even better in other countries around Europe (Netherlands, Norway etc). If Zero wants to focus on the European market I'd put an emphasis on Mennekes Type 2 charging and/or CCS.
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Exactly. From a Dutch point of view, plugging in twice is silly. Go redesign your EVSE's ;)
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Exactly. From a Dutch point of view, plugging in twice is silly. Go redesign your EVSE's ;)
It's "a simple matter of" rolling out a new electrical endpoint system across a country 237 times larger and much less dense: http://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/united-states/netherlands (http://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/united-states/netherlands)
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Yes yes, you have everything bigger. Didn't notice the smiley?
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I object! At least compare it to the EU ;)
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Yes yes, you have everything bigger. Didn't notice the smiley?
I did, and wasn't annoyed. More intrigued that I could find a website to compare the sizes and distances.
Anyway, we mostly have RV parks to deal with and Tesla owners giving EVs bad PR there. It's a little frustrating.
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Do we know of any Mennekes charging locations in USA? You would have to get 3-phase power or is it more than that?
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Mennekes will work just fine with a single phase, it's just a different plug/inlet form factor. They do exist in the USA but are extremely rare because it isn't the standard over there.
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The default cable that comes with the Zero charge tank over here is delivered with a Mennekes to J1772 charging cable to accommodate Mennekes charging. The standard dictates that when using single-phase charging only L1 and N are used, so these are the only connected pins in the Mennekes (Which is tamper-proofed with tri-wing screws btw).
Sorry if I misread your reply Brian, no harm intended ;)
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Yea I've seen a few Mennekes to J1772 adapters. Will this eventually be an optional add-on to the DigiNow?
And Mennekes works with DC and AC?? I've seen a few around but they're always mounted on DCFC stations.
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I'm pretty sure Mennekes is A.C. only.
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I'm pretty sure Mennekes is A.C. only.
Not per se, the European Teslas are fitted with Mennekes and also supercharge through it. That being said I think Tesla is the only one using it, since ChaDeMo and CCS have taken over the the DC part.
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The DC on Mennekes is a Daimler-proposal (Mercedes et al) to get DC on the same connectors as AC for simplicity's sake...
Funny thing is that the artist starts with "AC Chargers" as example :P
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png)
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Yea I've seen a few Mennekes to J1772 adapters. Will this eventually be an optional add-on to the DigiNow?
...
I think Brandon is in Europe testing them now.
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Yea I've seen a few Mennekes to J1772 adapters. Will this eventually be an optional add-on to the DigiNow?
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I think Brandon is in Europe testing them now.
He is, but European SC's just have a Mennekes inlet.
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Bump. I'm happy Zero decided to update the charge tank, I wish they could have made it even faster. About 2 hours is still too long to wait for a 0-80% charge in my opinion, 1 hour would be acceptable. For me 11kW(+) 3-phase Mennekes compatible charger would be ideal (is this possible with the new charge tank and a supercharger?). What are your thoughts?
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That is possible with just the SC.
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Bump. I'm happy Zero decided to update the charge tank, I wish they could have made it even faster. About 2 hours is still too long to wait for a 0-80% charge in my opinion, 1 hour would be acceptable. For me 11kW(+) 3-phase Mennekes compatible charger would be ideal (is this possible with the new charge tank and a supercharger?). What are your thoughts?
You can get 3 superchargers in the tank to get 10 kW charging. Many people on this forum already have this setup.
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I think it would be helpful if you or EC could explain to people the process of pulling up to a station and plugging in, ie do you check the output and decide how many SC get plugged in or are they switched etc, clearing up the mystery behind having 3 SC and when and where to use them so that people aren't afraid to take the plunge, I have my own personal process and I find if I follow it I don't have issues (I'm using TSM 2500's so my process may differ)
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I think it would be helpful if you or EC could explain to people the process of pulling up to a station and plugging in, ie do you check the output and decide how many SC get plugged in or are they switched etc, clearing up the mystery behind having 3 SC and when and where to use them so that people aren't afraid to take the plunge, I have my own personal process and I find if I follow it I don't have issues (I'm using TSM 2500's so my process may differ)
I'm not ET or EC, but I'll jump in here with my observations.
The default 3-brick config is 2 SC on the first J-plug, 1 on the
second, and done.
You avoid the station or networks that can't do 6.6kw or have
poorly maintained networks (I'm looking at you Blink)
That's the usual
Here's my unusual config:
A patch panel, with a C20 inlet for each SCv2 brick.
A pelican case locket to the bike with a collection of
cables and splitters that let me hook up a J-plug or
a T-plug or an RV outlet to any combination.
To do Dub-J charging, I also carry a Tesla T-to-J adapter
(thanks for the idea Zak)
My config can do Tesla to all three bricks, to three bricks
plus onboard (but taht would exceed 1C), to J+T, RV+J,
J+wall (e.g. many older chargepoints), a mind-boggling
number of possible combinations. Based on BTR's recent
trip, I'm also carrying some C19/C20 extensions so I can
Dub-J across a disabilities space.
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Is Tesla=Mennekes? Do 3 SCs support 3-phase Mennekes via 1 Mennekes socket?
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No, Tesla is not Mennekes, but Tesla cars made for Europe do use the Mennekes plug, since that's the standard.
IIRC digniow destined for Europe are configured with one 3.3kw brick per mennekes phase, but you could wire two to a single phase.
Brandon, do you have a comment?
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I agree with Togo.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Tesla is indeed Mennekes in Europe which means it can just tap in to the existing charging network and doesn't need special Tesla chargers everywhere.
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I plan using the sam eas Togo described ( The default 3-brick config is 2 SC on the first J-plug, 1 on the
second,) but will also carry 2+ 2 + 2 kw of Eltek that on a flip of switchs
The two first brick will be together on one 40A max J-plug
The third brick will be on a seperate 70A max J-plug with other AC connections for additional chargers (the Elteks)
Each eltek will have a switch that can add 2kW to the 3.3kW 3rd brick for up to 9.3kW on the second J-plug
Total max charging power will be 15.9kW... onc ei will have solved the 1C max limit of my ZF13+ powertank
Overall, the charging power options will be:
1.5kW with single brick, the 3rd brick only connected to regular 120V ac
3.3kW with single brick, the 3rd brick only connected to one J-plug
6.6kW with dual brick, the 1 and 2 brick connected to one J-plug
9.9kW with triple brick, the 1 and 2 brick connected to one J-plug and 3rd connected to the second J-plug
11.9kW with triple brick, the 1 and 2 brick connected to one J-plug and 3rd + 1 eltek connected to the second J-plug
13.9kW with triple brick, the 1 and 2 brick connected to one J-plug and 3rd + 2 eltek connected to the second J-plug ( safe for 1C limit)
15.9kW with triple brick, the 1 and 2 brick connected to one J-plug and 3rd + 2 eltek connected to the second J-plug ( 1C limit unlocked)
Doc
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Awesome, doc, thanks for the details!
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BUMP.
Will 2019 be the year? I sure hope Zero realizes the importance of faster charging soon.
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BUMP.
Will 2019 be the year? I sure hope Zero realizes the importance of faster charging soon.
Somebody is working on aftermarket Chademo again, and with the Diginows you should be able to go above 1C if you really want.
But indeed, Zero really needs to hop on the DC charging bandwagon.
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Here's another vote for a DC charging option.
Here in Virginia, USA, more DC charging stations coming soon, provided by money from the VW diesel settlement.
https://wtop.com/business-finance/2018/08/virginia-picks-evgo-for-statewide-electric-vehicle-charging-network/
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It does seem like CCS is becoming the consensus winner in the DC charging arena. But I just looked it up on wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System
and I'm worried about what I see for the voltage spec for CCS 2.0. It says 200-1000V. Sounds like our bikes are going to be locked out by minimum charging voltage again.