ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: MostlyBonkers on March 30, 2017, 12:05:08 AM
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I've been without my Zero for over three weeks now, simply because it needs a new rear wheel. Aaron, Zero's Director of Customer Service said this:
"My apologies for any delays here. We have been moving to set up a new warehouse in Europe to speed parts shipments, and we are still struggling to get this fully implemented. It is my hope in the near future that shipping times will be substantially reduces."
That was nine days ago. I don't give a damn where they store their spare parts. All they needed to do was pop the wheel in the post to my dealer. What is so difficult about that?
I've read a number of horror stories about poor customer service on this forum. I hoped I wouldn't have to share one myself.
What is so difficult about looking after your customers? Zero has had customer service issues for years. Why haven't they got their act together by now? It's letting the side down badly. Customers will only tolerate so much in good faith.
I wonder how much dealers are willing to tolerate bad service from Zero? I've been riding a courtesy bike around all this time. It may not be a big expense for the dealer, but it does tie up a bike that other customers could benefit from. Do Zero dealers need to run more courtesy bikes than those that deal with other manufacturers? It all costs.
I've been very fortunate in that the two Zero dealers I've dealt with in the UK (Streetbike and Daytona) have looked after me. That has taken the edge off the poor reliability I've experienced with my bike; new charger, new belt, new bearings (at my expense) and now a new wheel (due to bearing failure after less than 3,000 miles since the last lot). All within 11,000 miles. The bike has been off the road for well over a month in the 14 months I've owned it!
Come on Zero, I'm writing this for your benefit. You need to take customer service seriously. Don't let it kill your business when you have a great product. I bought a bike that I hoped wouldn't spend much time being serviced, or fixed...
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I called (Zero Motorcycles support #) and left a message asking about concerns with the smartphone app, detailed my email address, and received a sincere though measured reply by email first thing the next business day. When I had warranty work done through a dealership the process took months, and it was back for sloppy work several times. Even a rear tire change became a difficult operation at a dealership while on the road. It seems like if your bike is physically at a dealership then you're on the slow track for service, and subject to their learning curve or indifference on how service work should be done on a Zero motorbike.
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It's all very odd. Could it simply be poor communication? It was down to me to chase. I can be quite persistent and once I got on their radar, things have happened. It shouldn't be like that though. A week should have been plenty of time to turn this around.
I'm sorry to hear you've had so much trouble Shadow. Are you utterly fed up now? Would you buy another Zero?
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Keeping the Zero DSR, documenting on Zeromanual, buying a Tesla Model 3 (if it can tow the bike). Never have a thought of riding an ICE bike and Zero is the only EV motorbike maker with longevity. I think EV motorbikes are not the same market as for ICE vehicles.
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Experiencing the very same problem at the moment: SR 2015 has been waiting 6 weeks in France for a warranty issue (new rear sprocket). The dealer didnt get to do it in time before I moved to Germany. Now the bike is in the shop there for already 4,5 weeks (not the 1-2 weeks I was told it should take to do the job). Everyone has been telling me the same as you have been told about the European HQ (?) building change.
My time to visit the dealer is extremely limited and on Monday I plan to start commuting to work with the SR. Essentially I've owned the SR for under a year and it has been broken the whole winter without any fix. Haven't even been called or mailed by the dealers yet.
Except for that I'm a huge fan of my Zero - but only if it is om the street.
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wow, that stinks guys. nothing worse than being excited to have something and then not have it work. definition of frustration. not to defend them but they are a very small fish trying to compete in a very big pond. the farhter from home the harder it gets unfortunately.
hoping the best for ya,
laramie ;)
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Aaron and the folks at Zero are good people.
My guess is that Zero is not currently a lucrative business selling EV motorcycles and works with limited resources and inventory.
Hang in there.
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I have experienced and I am experiencing the same issue...
Charger, belt, bearing, wheel (because of bearings) all that stuff took several weeks to deal with and it happened separately at different time!
I've owned the bike (SR14) for 2 years now and it's at about 40K km taking into account the amount of time it spent at dealer shop (several months all in all). Just to take a guess, by counting only the distance home/job I should be at 52K km today!
I would like to get a DSR for my next bike, but even if ZERO is the best E-motorcycle today I am not sure if I still want to deal with these issues...
In a way I am hoping that the big manufacturers come in the run, that could bring changes in zero management.
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Even if there is exculpation for this kind of service,
why not offer a spare bike for the time the Zero is waiting at the dealer?
In case of failing gwp-charger (seems to be very common - my charger went bad a few days after buying my 2016 SR), the dealer could lend the deltaQ like my did. So I charged with the deltaQ until the new gwp-charger arrived at my dealer. Then they mounted the new one while I was there reading my stuff.
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I bought an emergency belt so I can keep riding in case of a belt failure and until my dealer can get one.
For any other malfunction I'm probably screwed...
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Only perhaps related, and not trying to derail: I purchased a ZEV LRC 15 a couple of years ago. I'm a routine rider (normally). Within a single charge, I started to have failure issues, and it quit operating when it got rained on. Lights went out. Pieces started falling off...(noe of this is exaggeration).
The response of the ZEV company was "What did you do to it?" and proceed to accuse me of deliberately sabotaging the bike in order to insist on return. Thousands of dollars and over a year later, I have a useless hunk of plastic with less than 1000 miles on it. Great use of my $15,000.
So, I have a pretty low bar set for me in regards to customer service.
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Place I bought my Zero from dropped Zero from their lineup after Zero took nearly a month to send a charger to them - and we're in the United States. Zero failed them a few times they said. Sucks for me, as I have a heavily flawed bike (at the time, it just shut down randomly while I rode it) and no place nearby to get it worked on.
A new dealership opened, a bit of a ways away. They did unauthorized work, didn't fix anything, charged me for it, damaged my bike and said it was like that when I dropped it off. I told Zero I didn't want to work with them anymore, they were dishonest, and Zero forwarded my E-mail to the dealer and told us to work it out!
My $16,000+ bike is at a third dealership now, having the original problems looked at, plus new serious issues. Zero won't reply to my E-mails. My warranty runs out in a few months now, the bike is approaching 3 months in the shop, with no loaner bike and me having to pay $18/day to park my car, vs free motorcycle parking...I've reported them to the BBB, and I may have to go to a lawyer next. I'm not paying for a fourth visit out of pocket.
Love the product, when it works. Hate the company, their customer services is truly horrifying.
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Aaron and the folks at Zero are good people.
My guess is that Zero is not currently a lucrative business selling EV motorcycles and works with limited resources and inventory.
Hang in there.
Reading the stories above Kilroy, do you feel you might revise your statement?
Good people make mistakes like everyone else, but they do their best to rectify the situation. They also do what is necessary to mitigate issues so they don't keep happening.
I'm sure each customer experience has its own nuances. Different circumstances combine to make an outcome less than ideal. It can't be easy running a customer service department for a small company.
Do sales departments operate like this though? Of course they don't. They wouldn't sell any bikes at all! Perhaps Zero need to treat customer service like sales. Customer service may not close the original sale (although it certainly helps if there's a good reputation), it does help repeat custom though.
Everyone who has been brave enough to share their story is probably wondering if they would invest in another Zero. Many may already looking for an exit strategy. It's such a shame when people clearly love their Zeros, myself included.
No matter how understanding and tolerant Zero's customers might be, dealers will be less so. They want happy customers and as little hassle as possible.
Zero need all the good word of mouth they can get. I hope they can turn this around.
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I used to be the guy that constantly told all of his friends about the joys of riding electric. Posted it on facebook. Answered strangers on the street's questions and advocated for Zero, made in my home state of California, go Zero! Then, slowly as I had worse and worse problems, and support slowly stopped caring, I got quieter. Now I'm vocal again, against them. Wait for a big company to make electric bikes, it's a crap shoot if you buy a Zero.
Exit strategy is very true. I've been contemplating my next moves. I can never go back to gas, we have two electric cars, two Zeros, solar panels and a Powerwall 2 being installed. But there's just no competition to Zero. I may have to trade it in for a 2017 that's hopefully reliable, not sure if that hurts my law suite again them if I don't have the flawed bike anymore, but I just can't be without the bike, or riding something that's going to get me killed! I suppose a cheap Suzuki may be the way to go, I haven't been to a gas station for 2 years almost, would really like to not go backwards!
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All I can say is that Zero used to have very good customer service when they were a much smaller company - at least in my experience (I live about 70 miles from the factory). When the company was smaller and I bought my first Zero, a 2012 S in January 2012, twice that summer they drove a truck to my home, picked up my bike, worked on it to fix a bad throttle and then later to fix the "glitch" and returned it to my home within a couple of days. When I bought my 2014 S and my dealer had problems getting my "power tank" to work, they sent a Zero technician to the dealership and he spent a couple of hours replacing the defective "tank" module and sorting out some other assembly issues with the bike at the same time. It has been running perfectly ever since.
The problem (in my view) would seem to be that Zero has expanded their customers and retail outlets faster than their "customer service" can keep up - especially since the "customer service" department is not a revenue-generating division within the for-profit company. I might add that my daughter is her company's only (internet-only) customer service representative and she spends many hours every day responding to complaints about the Chinese-made products that her company sells to mostly women. It is quite a job and one that tends to go unappreciated by management who really doesn't want to hear about any complaints.
Hopefully, Zero will straighten out this situation and it would seem that the first place to start is with better factory quality control of both components and assembly so that their bikes keep running without any problems once placed in service by their customers. If everything works as well as it is designed, then you won't need as much customer service and everyone will be happy, including both the customers and the company board members and investors. :)
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Does anyone from Zero monitor this forum? Is there any way to bring this particular thread to their attention?
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There is one or another Zero employee on the forum, they will see this..
my dealer got the broken bms yesterday, after 5weeks or a bit more. Now its installed but there is no throttle response and a zero engeneer can not look into it till monday. So when it goes good and my dealter just made a little mistake, i have my bike back after 6 weeks (edit: totally 6 weeks of course, not another). When not, it takes even longer. No bike for me, but a lot of anger. I've to monitor this. Zero got a new CEO and a new Head of their Business in Europe. Maybe something changes now.
By the way: KIA is showing how its done. A friend of mine has a KIA Sould EV. His charger broke down, no warranty anymore. They cheched the error-codes and it was a known problem, so it was still replaced on warranty. But they had no charger stock in europe. He brought the car to the dealership in frieday. Over the weekend they sent the charger from Corea by plane. On monday it was installed and redy to go... That's customer care
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That's good to know kash, I also have Kia Soul EV.
I hope this topic does Zero a favour in the long run. If nobody moans, nothing changes.
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I am confused about who is responsible for the breakdown - Zero or the dealers. Some of the stories I've heard seem to point towards the dealer being lazy about getting the repair done and pointing the finger at Zero. Other stories seem to clearly implicate Zero.
What I don't understand is how some dealers can provide such great support and other dealers are so crappy. Sure, Hollywood Electrics has more in-house expertise and some more spare parts in inventory, but they don't have everything and still need to interface with Zero HQ for warranty issues, remote diagnostics, and parts support. Why would Zero answer a call from one dealer, but blow another one off for weeks or months at a time? They may be on a first name basis with the high volume dealers, but it just doesn't make sense that they would hinder getting these bikes (mine included) back on the road.
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There's a third party in the relationship too, the customer. I've said that I've been looked after by my dealers; courtesy bikes and generally a good attitude. However, I've still had to chase. If I've not heard anything for a few days, I call. I've called Zero and spoken to Aaron. I've emailed. I've complained. I badger my dealer regularly. I turned up there unannounced a couple of days ago. It's tiresome but it has to be done.
It shouldn't be necessary, but it is. I find there are very few people out there who are genuinely on top of their workload. Most of them aren't organised at all and find themselves just reacting to the latest thing that has hit their mailbox. Or the last phonecall. After they've been working like that for a few years they just think that chaos is the norm. When they find themselves with a quiet moment they're so exhausted they do nothing. Essentially, they end up relying on the people that want something from them to keep reminding them about what they need to do. All the phone calls and emails are a terrible waste of time for everyone, but if they stop then nothing happens.
The trouble is that once you're in that hole, it's very difficult to get out of it. You're putting out fires all the time. There's no time to do anything proactive and it just becomes a grind. Instead of doing the things that will reduce the constant stream of emails, phone calls and threatening letters, they just become masters at fobbing people off. It's somebody else's fault, there's this excuse or that one, etc.
Zero have been in this hole with their customer service for years it seems. It means it's down to the customer to make things happen, which is the wrong way round.
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in my case the dealer is very enthousiastic about zero and tried to fix my bike as fast as possible.. He calls as soon as they are late and he gets excused another week, then he calls again, and again,.. Its a good dude an he hopes that it gets better with the new staff
He has also a normal motorcycle shop with gas bikes. I heard from other dealers that only do solar stuff etc, and they may not have the same experience in working on bikes. So bad and unprofessional things happen while working on the bikes, what's sad to hear..
I wrote some mails direct to zero, but they go to the nirvana as it seems.. so my only choice is to talk to my dealer. And i slowly feel sorry for him, because it seems that hes does all he can, but zero lets him down in having horrible deliverytimes for pretty "normal" parts (my bms is special, i know)
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In my experience - as I have dealt with two seperate dealers - it really depends.
First, the repair was to be done in France where I also ordered a top case rack (which I paid in advance). I called the dealer several times, gave him my mail adress and I visited him in person one or two times. Over the course of 6 weeks he didn't get ANYTHING done. So after moving to Germany again I wrote a mail to Zero Europe and asked for my money or the dealer sending the parts to me. It tourned out he forgot my case and was very sorry. It took like 2 days and I had a refund and a very actively reacting dealer now who couldn't stop apologising. It seemed as if the pressure by Zero made things work.
In the second case I was at my German dealership which has enthusiastic staff who themselves drive Zeros. They are the only dealer in a wide area (including Berlin) and if one can believe them they are consequently increasing their Zero sales. The owner and a certain mechanic personally care for the Zero customers and so far it seems to me they are into the tech and know what they are doing. That is in no way self-evident since they also a run a far larger Honda business. Here, it already takes 5 weeks to get a new rear sprocket. The dealer assured me he regularily talks to Zero and reminds them of my case but they can't even give an expected date of arrival. Again, in no way do I have insight into the internal procedures but it seems to me that in this case Zero is lagging behind with the lame excuse of having moved their European HQ. By the dealer information I received they are apparently moving since November last year. Either it is an excuses, really difficult situation or they are misorganised.
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A quick update:
The new rear wheel was due a week ago and there is still no sign of it. Five weeks and counting for an issue that shouldn't have taken more than a week. Despicable, Zero!
I'm now of the opinion that owning a Zero motorcycle for its intended purpose, to ride it to work in my case, isn't viable. A commuter bike should have top notch customer service to ensure customers are back on the road as soon as possible.
If I'd bought the bike just for pleasure, I'd still expect better service than this.
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I confess at this point to being terrified of the possibility that I have invested in another electric bike that will let me down. I literally am in this for the ease of maintenance.
But it sort of sounds like mechanics are as fault at least as often as Zero...?
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A lot of it depends on where you live. If you're near LA or the factory up north in California, you're golden. Your bike will be fixed by experts in days. If you're on the East Coast, the dealers are all new to it and don't know how to do anything besides sell Zeros and call Zero support.
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A lot of it depends on where you live. If you're near LA or the factory up north in California, you're golden. Your bike will be fixed by experts in days. If you're on the East Coast, the dealers are all new to it and don't know how to do anything besides sell Zeros and call Zero support.
You can blame the factory for that, too. There is NO service manual... not even for the dealer mechanics.
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Dealers can pay to attend Zero training. They have to get some sort of material while there, no?
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A lot of it depends on where you live. If you're near LA or the factory up north in California, you're golden. Your bike will be fixed by experts in days. If you're on the East Coast, the dealers are all new to it and don't know how to do anything besides sell Zeros and call Zero support.
My east coast dealer sent mechanics and salesmen to Zero HQ. They assembled a bike from scratch and mechanic received required training.
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My bike is at the third dealership on the East Coast now, I'm hoping they have that kind of dedication. First one dropped Zero because they took a month to send them a charger. Second one was a scammer and lier. Really hopeful about this third one.
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The two dealers I've dealt with in the UK have sent mechanics to the Netherlands for training. I think that's great!
I wonder if my local dealer will continue with Zero after this experience though. I can't see that there's any proper money in it for them, just aggro from bad service and unhappy customers. Their demo bikes are 2016 models, which speaks volumes to me. I'll see what next week brings, but as much as I love my bike, it has turned into a liability. I don't want it off the road for weeks when there is a problem and there have been too many problems already.
I'm sure I'll feel better once my bike is back in my hands, but my mind has started straying back to more tried and tested ICE bikes with a proper support network. It's really sad. Hopefully my next post on this topic will be more positive.
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The two dealers I've dealt with in the UK have sent mechanics to the Netherlands for training. I think that's great!
I wonder if my local dealer will continue with Zero after this experience though. I can't see that there's any proper money in it for them, just aggro from bad service and unhappy customers. Their demo bikes are 2016 models, which speaks volumes to me. I'll see what next week brings, but as much as I love my bike, it has turned into a liability. I don't want it off the road for weeks when there is a problem and there have been too many problems already.
I'm sure I'll feel better once my bike is back in my hands, but my mind has started straying back to more tried and tested ICE bikes with a proper support network. It's really sad. Hopefully my next post on this topic will be more positive.
Perhaps that is why the BMW Evolution scooter is selling so well in Europe. BMW is pretty big on customer service and they like to keep their dealers happy too. No doubt that reputation is a big factor when someone is investing in an expensive new technology like an electric vehicle.
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My Zero SR 2015 died (no power) in January when I had it plugged in during the winter storage. I took it to my dealer here in Finland to get it fixed under warranty. The dealer was very helpful although I imported the bike myself from Germany. They found out that the battery pack is faulty and needs to be replaced so they ordered a replacement from Zero European headquarters. Until this point everything went smoothly and I had no particular hurry to get the bike fixed as it was winter and all the roads were covered in snow.
But now we have waited the replacement battery pack to arrive for over two months! 😡 Normally at this time of year I would have been riding for a week or two as the weather is decently warm already. At the moment I have no idea when I'll get the bike back... I asked the dealer to get an estimate of how long it will still take to get the battery pack. The answer was that nobody knows. I think waiting over two months for a spare part is ridiculous and unacceptable.
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Call and E-mail Zero yourself. I've heard that works. It got me on the ignore list, but it worked for others. lol
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I can't help wondering if there's a container full of Zero parts waiting in a dockyard somewhere. Stuck in customs perhaps? I hate to think how much it must cost to send parts via DHL from California, so they must be trying to get a bulk shipment over to setup this new warehouse or distribution centre in Europe. It would be nice if they could at least communicate with us and give us some proper information.
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I don't think so. I think they're such a small volume company that they have to have things built as needed, they don't seem to have much if any parts at the ready. They may even wait until there's a certain amount of something requested to have it produced, requesting a one off will be more expensive than waiting until they needed 10 of something.
Or they're just a small company that's bad at communicating with their customers and focused on fleet deliveries.
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...But now we have waited the replacement battery pack to arrive for over two months! .... I think waiting over two months for a spare part is ridiculous and unacceptable.
Politely insist on borrowing a Zero bike to ride until this is resolved. Worked for me, things got done much quicker when I was putting on the commuter miles on their asset.
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There's a third party in the relationship too, the customer. I've said that I've been looked after by my dealers; courtesy bikes and generally a good attitude. However, I've still had to chase. If I've not heard anything for a few days, I call. I've called Zero and spoken to Aaron. I've emailed. I've complained. I badger my dealer regularly. I turned up there unannounced a couple of days ago. It's tiresome but it has to be done.
What contact info do you use for phone and Email? Is it just (831) 438-3500 and inquiries@zeromotorcycles.com or is there something better? Unfortunately, I've moved across country and the dealer I'm working with is not the one I bought the bike from, so I don't have the goodwill to request a loaner bike. The dealer is 3 hours away, so turning up unannounced probably isn't worth it for me. I can call the deal and ask nicely, but I'd like to lean more on Zero to help get me back on the road.
EDIT April 12 - Sent an Email to zero Email above. Didn't get a response from Zero, but the dealer called a few hours later letting me know the motor I'm waiting for is shipping this week. Could be coincidence, but I assume that helped get things moving.
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...But now we have waited the replacement battery pack to arrive for over two months! .... I think waiting over two months for a spare part is ridiculous and unacceptable.
Politely insist on borrowing a Zero bike to ride until this is resolved. Worked for me, things got done much quicker when I was putting on the commuter miles on their asset.
Well, I don't think that would work in my case as I imported the bike myself. It would be kind of unfair to ask a loaner from the Finnish dealer/importer because this situation is no way their fault. Fortunately for me, the dealer has been very helpful in helping me with this warranty issue although they didn't sell the bike.
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I am understanding the dealership billable hours get paid by Zero Motorcycles for warranty work, or is that not true?
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I am understanding the dealership billable hours get paid by Zero Motorcycles for warranty work, or is that not true?
To be honest, I really don't know but that is probably how it works.
I also sent e-mail directly to Zero EU but they didn't bother answering.
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Well, in my case it certainely did work. After waiting more than 6 weeks I wrote them an email last Friday announcing that I'll engage the delay legally (with estimated costs of up to $200 per week). No reaction until today at 1700pm: the dealer called to tell me that they managed to put my bike first because of the delay and that I could pick it up now. A few minutes later I received an email where Zero apologised for the delay and asked me if there are any further problems that need to be resolved.
Finally, I'm simply very happy that I can ride again since the weather in Germany started getting very good lately.
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I am understanding the dealership billable hours get paid by Zero Motorcycles for warranty work, or is that not true?
To be honest, I really don't know but that is probably how it works.
I also sent e-mail directly to Zero EU but they didn't bother answering.
Yes, for warranty work all expenses are paid by Zero. However, manufacturers have a contract with dealerships which specify how much they will pay for labour. The figure is significantly lower than the rates dealers charge their customers for regular maintenance and repairs. Therefore dealers will prioritize work that earns them more money. Warranty work is at the bottom of the queue. It can become a real problem if manufacturers issue a recall. They expect lots of work to be done on the cheap by dealers when dealers want to charge their full rate. It hits the bottom line. Warranty issues tend to get a lower level of service from the dealers.
There's no money in it for the manufacturer, just costs. All they need to do is employ people who don't give a damn about their customers and they reduce their costs. Its a little bit like how companies don't pay their bills until they're threatened by legal action.
I happen to work for a law firm that prides itself as being a global leader in international trade. If I don't start getting some results soon, I might just
see how Zero reacts when the big guns are brought to the party.
The other option for Zero is to build reliability in at the design stage. Test thoroughly so that badly designed parts are weeded out and improved before customers have to suffer with them. On the understanding that no product is perfect, back the finished product up with good customer service so that issues are resolved quickly.
I feel that Zero are taking advantage of the fact that they don't have any competition. It's a very short term strategy and they must be hoping the business gets bought out. That leaves the Directors with a large windfall so they can retire. They don't care about what happens from that point on.
My conclusion is that Zero needs some competition. Customers unhappy with Zero's reliability and service will flock to the competition. Exactly what happened to the British car industry in the '80's. Zero have had years to get it sorted and yet the complaints remain the same.
It is such a terrible shame. After all the hard work they've put in on the engineering side over the years, they get sabotaged by their customer service department. Boo and hiss.
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On hold for the last 20 minutes trying to get an update on my warranty work. They got around to looking at it about two weeks ago, but I didn't get any follow up calls. I imagine higher earning, customer work, started back up again and I'm on the back burner. Oh well, I've never gotten my Zero back in under a month, from either of the three dealership's she's done time at yet.
And of course, no refund from Zero, just silence on E-mails since they said they were looking into a refund. Like you said, it's such a shame, all this engineering and awesomeness, undone by the end user experience problems. I die inside a little when I tell people not to buy Zeros now. I told dozens about how great they were for the first year, while glazing over the serious problems I had. No more of that. :(
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I have enthused about my Zero to many people too, despite some significant teething problems like the charger dying after 500 miles. I can only tolerate so much as an early adopter though and my recent experience has changed my mind. I wouldn't want to encourage anybody to put themselves in the position of suffering such bad service. Being ignored, lied to and not getting responses to email is intolerable.
In fact, I might just start a negative marketing campaign soon. I don't want too see people buying Zeros and unwittingly setting themselves up for a world of pain.
A few posts in the right places on Facebook, Twitter and this forum will help put people off. Why do companies think they can get away with it in this day and age? Bad word of mouth spreads quicker than ever now. I've refrained from ranting elsewhere, but I'm not one to shy away from speaking my mind.
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Seems like a new charger is a right of passage when joining the Zero struggle. 6 Weeks for that to get replaced. No one could get my bike to shut off on it's own while riding however, nothing in the logs either. I bought a helmet cam and caught it on video once, Zero said they'd make sure it was fixed right away if I told them when I brought it in. They did nothing special when I finally could be without it for 4+ weeks again, besides throw me under the bus when that dealer messed my bike up.
They're replacing the second dealer's mess ups now, waiting for parts from Zero, we'll see how that goes. They also shipped off more logs for analysis. I've sent Zero a dozen or so phone pulled logs, and dealers have sent 4 full collections. I've NEVER heard anything back. Of course, half of those, the dealers didn't pass on the last shutdown date to Zero. Just plugged it all in and let Zero deal with it, and you can't speak with a Zero tech, especially when you make their black list, like I did by asking if my refund was approved.
Exactly, I've started my negative marketing campaign against them also. I'm in every group, and I comment on everything I can. I own two Zeros, and I wish I didn't. Don't make my mistake. Wait for an electric Honda or Suzuki. :( Zero doesn't care about you unless you buy a fleet of Zeros.
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This thread has convinced me to hang onto my remaining ICE (2004, 500cc Aprilia scooter; awesome carrying capacity). The Zero is *WAY* more fast/fun, but it sounds like I should plan on the Zero being OOC within the next few months :( Hoping that's not the case. Hoping the Zero gang are sitting up and taking notice of this thread.
I've also had a bad experience with customer service. Can't say for certain if it's my local dealer or Zero -- I have a frayed housing cable near the rear foot brake. When I took it in for the 600M service my dealer said they'd contact Zero and order a replacement. Nothing heard since. This afternoon I dropped off the bike for 4K service and asked about it again. Will wait to see what happens. This is sort of a minor issue (bike runs fine) but when I'm paying top dollar for a bike -- I want a top dollar bike. Since the shop's been in business for 40 years, I tend to think they know what they're doing/did what they say they did. But I could be wrong.
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From a Facebook poll I set up weeks ago, it seems that about 10% of all Zeros are shop queens, like mine. So, there is a good chance you get a good one. But my god, if you get that 1 in 10, hope you have a backup bike. My commute in a car vs bike is over 1 hour longer per day (no HOV access), and parking costs $18 more in a car (I've secured free motorcycle parking). When I'm without for 1 month plus per visit to the shop, it HURTS.
I'm going to upgrade my bike this year, but I'm going to hold out for a competitor to release something. There's several coming this year, hopefully. If I have to, I'll break the bank and go with an Ego. The warranty expires in a few months and I'm NOT paying to keep this thing going. Some poor dealer is going to get it traded in, and they're going to hate Zero then.
Two more sales lost, good job Zero customer support!
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(http://cdn.free-power-point-templates.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/new-product-diffusion-model-diagram-ppt.jpg)
Product Adoption Curve: Innovators, Early Adopters, Early Majority, Late Majority, Laggards.
Zero Motorcycles service through motorcycle dealerships feels to me (in my experience with four dealerships) like mostly Innovators level. If we're lucky there is some place like Hollywood Electrics where the dealership treats us like Early Adopters.
I cannot pretend to be the Early Majority. That's not really where I'd say we are with this transportation. Paying a large amount of money for an imported Italian designed competitor's product does not make the Early Majority happen any earlier than suffering the failures of the global motorcycle dealership model.
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It sounds like you're blaming the dealers Shadow? You may have been unlucky. My experience with dealers has been good here in the UK. I know I made the point about dealers having contracts for warranty work. That might help explain some dealers' behavior when it comes to service. However, my dealers have been happy to honour their service agreements. Actually, in Streetbike's case they went above and beyond. They picked my bike up from my home on two occasions. I'm approximately 120 miles from them. I estimate my bike has done well over 500 miles in the back of their van. It was necessary because at the time they were the only dealership in the UK. They chose to sell a bike to a long distance customer and backed it up by honouring that commitment. Daytona Motorcycles are only about 20 miles away, so as soon as they started up with Zero, I went to them. I've had one of their courtesy bikes for almost six weeks now. They are also a good bunch and are committed to getting my bike back on the road as soon as possible.
So in my experience at least, there is no correlation between customers being innovators and experiencing bad dealership service. Most of Zero's dealers are well established. They've been selling traditional bikes from big manufacturers for years or decades. They know how to provide good customer service. They also know what they can expect from manufacturers. They can get spares from Japan in three weeks if necessary. Most of the time it isn't necessary because there is a distribution centre in Europe. The parts arrive next day. Sometimes they'll take two or three days. In very rare cases they'll take three weeks. If the matter was urgent, I'm sure that could be expedited.
I can understand some dealerships feeling less than comfortable working with new technology. However, my two dealers have both sent their technicians for training at the European HQ. If a technician needs some expert help, it's easy to hook up with Zero's engineers via Skype on a smartphone. That way problems can be worked through together. The local techie gains some valuable experience and will have a better chance of taking care of the issue next time.
All fingers point to Zero, at least from a UK perspective. Zero aren't supplying parts in a timely manner.
I think there's no excuse for poor customer service. It should be a priority for any business, especially one that is selling an innovative product into a niche market. Zero is relying on good word of mouth to grow its business. All it seems to be doing is generating negativity. That from enthusiasts that were willing to pay a premium for a product in its early stages of development. We love our Zeros and yet we're turned against them by the very company that makes them. That's quite an achievement!
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Zero is relying on police and government sales it seems like. This last year they made a large push for expanding consumer sales. There was 1 dealer an hour away from me on the East Coast, and now there's 5. None of them have any experience with repairs however, they all just wanted to sell me a new Zero. The dealers can't be blamed, it's new to them, and there's no money in warranty work. Zero should be leaning on them to give better support, if Zero themselves won't support customers anymore. If you aren't in CA, be ready to be the guinea pig, and for your bike to sit for over a month every visit.
I said I would go with the Ego if nothing else came out. I'm hoping for a Honda or Suzuki or something that can be sold from literally every dealer. They also can order in bulk and have parts at the ready in each region, not ship out from CA, at random intervals. If you spend 18 grand on a top of the line bike from a manufacture, it shouldn't spend 2-3 months every year in the shop waiting on parts or support to assist the dealer! Not to mention, why have cell phone log collection, if you're just going to ignore it, not take user calls, and tell them to take the bike two hours to the nearest dealer? (Dealer I bought from dropped Zero after they got mad manufacture support, I had none within range for a while) Zero kept telling me to take my bike to a dealer, and I'm like, it's 6 months old, I don't have a trailer to haul it to one. Treat your dealers well, treat your customers well.
I know that if I get a dud from Zero again, I'm screwed. At least with an Ego, if forced that way, there's the chance that they take better care of me. They have an East Coast HQ now, and at that price point, they'd better come out and fix it in my garage if I have problems. Lightning's cheaper offering could be out soon, I'm fairly hopeful that that will be a good one, but it could have Zero problems, being a smaller manufacture.
Also pissed that I've bought two third party chargers and held off on using them much - I didn't want to risk voiding my warranty. Only a few additional grand wasted. I keep thinking my bike is going to be healthy and I can start making longer trips. Never happened. Maybe when the warranty is expired this summer, I'll throw caution and my life into the wind and take it out on an adventure. Will be some great PR when I post all of my breakdowns and issues during a long trip on one.
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Something that often works: send a direct email to their CEO (SAM PASCHE). I don't have his address but try combinations like sam.pasche@zeromotorcycles.com or spasche@ etc.
It worked for me with the previous CEO (it did help that I was a moto journo), but others sent emails to the CEO and it worked.
Often these guys don't know how bad things get...
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E-Motorcycles are certainly still in the "innovators" area. Whereas electric cars have already jumped into the "early adopters" category, at least in some countries/states.
Regarding the dealers, there is one around 90km from my home, I contacted them to ask about software version of the MBB, since mine seems not to have the latest one. The only reply I got a few weeks later was "better ask the question directly to Zero Motorcycles". Hope I will not have any incident in the next years. Just replacing a tire can be done at any shop in the neighbourhood.
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It sounds like you're blaming the dealers Shadow? You may have been unlucky. My experience with dealers has been good here in the UK...
Rather trying to say that relying on the traditional moto dealership model to sell and service Zero Motorcycles vehicles is what leads to vehicle owner dissatisfaction. I agree as pointed out that this is in part due to Zero Motorcycles not actually leveraging that model to the full extent that it could be.
My own experiences have been positive inter-personally with dealerships. I'm not seeing any rude employees at dealerships representing Zero Motorcycles, although perhaps a lot of sales people who are a bit daft about technology. Pleasant as they may be, at the end of the interaction "Do I have a tracking number for that parts shipment?" and "Is the bike repaired (under warranty) and I can get the keys and be finished with this transaction?" are the only topics I am interested in.
So far the Zero-authorized dealerships within 1-day's range of my 2016 Zero DSR have failed that test repeatedly. Symptoms range from month long delays due to having more profitable work, all qualified service employees quit to work for Harley Davidson (more profitable) shops, to not bothering to check which person's bike they were physically working on with a service order for "a Zero bike" (tires put on wrong bikes, my bike about to be dismantled for a problem it doesn't have). "Does your bike usually make a loud noise?"
If I could, I would never, ever, ever in my lifetime, set foot in a moto dealership. That said I don't know the answer to make this better. I think there's an opportunity in the market soon for EV-only vehicle service shops (NOT motorcycle specific).
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E-Motorcycles are certainly still in the "innovators" area. Whereas electric cars have already jumped into the "early adopters" category, at least in some countries/states.
Regarding the dealers, there is one around 90km from my home, I contacted them to ask about software version of the MBB, since mine seems not to have the latest one. The only reply I got a few weeks later was "better ask the question directly to Zero Motorcycles". Hope I will not have any incident in the next years. Just replacing a tire can be done at any shop in the neighbourhood.
Yeah, basic mechanical stuff, you're pretty safe on. But my god, the guy trying to update me on my bike's status was trying to figure out what uploading logs to Zero meant.
sam.pasche@zeromotorcycles.com isn't a valid E-mail address. Just tried. I'm sure they made it something hard to guess. I tried contacting him via Linkedin, no reply. I post about my experience on Zero's social media posts, you'd think someone would write me, at least tell me I was denied my refund. I gave them two weeks without asking, then started sending polite E-mails weekly asking for updates.
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It sounds like you're blaming the dealers Shadow? You may have been unlucky. My experience with dealers has been good here in the UK...
Rather trying to say that relying on the traditional moto dealership model to sell and service Zero Motorcycles vehicles is what leads to vehicle owner dissatisfaction. I agree as pointed out that this is in part due to Zero Motorcycles not actually leveraging that model to the full extent that it could be.
My own experiences have been positive inter-personally with dealerships. I'm not seeing any rude employees at dealerships representing Zero Motorcycles, although perhaps a lot of sales people who are a bit daft about technology. Pleasant as they may be, at the end of the interaction "Do I have a tracking number for that parts shipment?" and "Is the bike repaired (under warranty) and I can get the keys and be finished with this transaction?" are the only topics I am interested in.
So far the Zero-authorized dealerships within 1-day's range of my 2016 Zero DSR have failed that test repeatedly. Symptoms range from month long delays due to having more profitable work, all qualified service employees quit to work for Harley Davidson (more profitable) shops, to not bothering to check which person's bike they were physically working on with a service order for "a Zero bike" (tires put on wrong bikes, my bike about to be dismantled for a problem it doesn't have). "Does your bike usually make a loud noise?"
If I could, I would never, ever, ever in my lifetime, set foot in a moto dealership. That said I don't know the answer to make this better. I think there's an opportunity in the market soon for EV-only vehicle service shops (NOT motorcycle specific).
A chain of Hollywood Electrics would be awesome. Start with them just outside of the big cities. Hire only EEs. Get maintenance contracts with Zero's government fleets to cover the costs at first, then venture out into supporting and selling to the public. That would work.
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Sam@zeromotorcycles.com seems to work.
I've sent him a link to this topic.
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And right on cue, my wife's 2016 S lost power while I rode it home today. Display went to 0 MPH, green arrow/circle flashed as I went to the shoulder and rolled to a stop. I'm furious. It's going to join my 2015 SR in the shop this weekend. I've sent logs and an HD video to Zero, and posted it to Facebook to try to warn everyone away from Zeros.
Can't wait to get ignored by Zero for this issue too. Maybe I can scare the dealership away from them by having both off my Zeros in the shop.
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And right on cue, my wife's 2016 S lost power while I rode it home today. Display went to 0 MPH, green arrow/circle flashed as I went to the shoulder and rolled to a stop....
Care to share an MBB log?
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Sure, how can I get that to you?
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Parced it. Not sure what to make of this part:
08052 04/13/2017 13:28:31 Riding PackTemp: h 25C, l 25C, PackSOC: 60%, Vpack:101.218V, MotAmps: 47, BattAmps: 69, Mods: 10, MotTemp: 48C, CtrlTemp: 33C, AmbTemp: 25C, MotRPM:4733, Odo: 1682km
08053 04/13/2017 13:28:31 Batt Dischg Cur Limited 635 A (92%), MinCell: 3590mV, MaxPackTemp: 25C
08054 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x40, Sevcon Error Code: 0x46C3, Data: 04 01 00, Unknown
08055 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x40, Sevcon Error Code: 0x52C2, Data: 00 10 00, Unknown
08056 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Restarting Sevcon to clear cutout fault
08057 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Module 00 Opening Contactor vmod: 107.764V, batt curr: -346A
08058 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Module 01 Opening Contactor vmod: 0.000V, batt curr: 0A
08059 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Sevcon Turned Off
08060 04/13/2017 13:29:29 DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF
08061 04/13/2017 13:29:29 DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Open
08062 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x0000, Error Reg: 0x00, Sevcon Error Code: 0x46C3, Data: C2 52 C3, Unknown
08063 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x40, Sevcon Error Code: 0x46C3, Data: 0C 02 00, Unknown
08064 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x0000, Error Reg: 0x00, Sevcon Error Code: 0x46C3, Data: C2 52 04, Unknown
08065 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x3100, Error Reg: 0x04, Sevcon Error Code: 0x45C5, Data: 08 07 00, Unknown
08066 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x2000, Error Reg: 0x06, Sevcon Error Code: 0x54C1, Data: 00 10 02, Unknown
08067 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x46, Sevcon Error Code: 0x46C3, Data: 0E 06 00, Unknown
08068 04/13/2017 13:29:30 INFO: Bmvolts: 52625, Cmvolts: 138062, Amps: 0, RPM: 5518
08069 04/13/2017 13:29:31 Riding PackTemp: h 26C, l 25C, PackSOC: 57%, Vpack:101.183V, MotAmps: 0, BattAmps: 0, Mods: 00, MotTemp: 55C, CtrlTemp: 38C, AmbTemp: 26C, MotRPM:5518, Odo: 1684km
08070 04/13/2017 13:29:32 Sevcon Turned On
08071 04/13/2017 13:29:32 Sevcon CAN Link Down
08072 04/13/2017 13:29:32 CAN1 BIT0 error. count=1
08073 04/13/2017 13:29:32 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x3100, Error Reg: 0x04, Sevcon Error Code: 0x45C5, Data: 08 07 00, Unknown
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Ah, sevcon freaked out.
08054 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x40, Sevcon Error Code: 0x46C3, Data: 04 01 00, Unknown
08055 04/13/2017 13:29:29 SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x40, Sevcon Error Code: 0x52C2, Data: 00 10 00, Unknown
08056 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Restarting Sevcon to clear cutout fault
08057 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Module 00 Opening Contactor vmod: 107.764V, batt curr: -346A
08058 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Module 01 Opening Contactor vmod: 0.000V, batt curr: 0A
08059 04/13/2017 13:29:29 Sevcon Turned Off
08060 04/13/2017 13:29:29 DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF
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Since I was in the parser, I pulled up my SR logs. 28% power available at 64% SOC. Yeah, that checks out, seems normal. Nothing wrong with this bike...
07615 01/11/2017 14:26:18 Riding PackTemp: h 19C, l 19C, PackSOC: 64%, Vpack: 92.516V, MotAmps: 148, BattAmps: 188, Mods: 10, MotTemp: 69C, CtrlTemp: 26C, AmbTemp: 15C, MotRPM:4564, Odo:12518km
07616 01/11/2017 14:26:18 Batt Dischg Cur Limited 199 A (28%), MinCell: 3249mV, MaxPackTemp: 19C
When I got home:
07639 01/11/2017 14:37:18 Disarmed PackTemp: h 24C, l 24C, PackSOC: 53%, Vpack:102.373V, MotAmps: 0, BattAmps: 2, Mods: 01, MotTemp: 59C, CtrlTemp: 21C, AmbTemp: 13C, MotRPM: 0, Odo:12530km
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Since I was in the parser, I pulled up my SR logs. 28% power available at 64% SOC. Yeah, that checks out, seems normal. Nothing wrong with this bike...
07615 01/11/2017 14:26:18 Riding PackTemp: h 19C, l 19C, PackSOC: 64%, Vpack: 92.516V, MotAmps: 148, BattAmps: 188, Mods: 10, MotTemp: 69C, CtrlTemp: 26C, AmbTemp: 15C, MotRPM:4564, Odo:12518km
07616 01/11/2017 14:26:18 Batt Dischg Cur Limited 199 A (28%), MinCell: 3249mV, MaxPackTemp: 19C
When I got home:
07639 01/11/2017 14:37:18 Disarmed PackTemp: h 24C, l 24C, PackSOC: 53%, Vpack:102.373V, MotAmps: 0, BattAmps: 2, Mods: 01, MotTemp: 59C, CtrlTemp: 21C, AmbTemp: 13C, MotRPM: 0, Odo:12530km
Not sure why it happened but at 64% the logs show 92V which is really low and would cause the bike to reduce power....But when you got home and at 53% it reads 102V which is still lower than I would expect for a bike that's at 53%.
Also at 64% your log shows min cell is at 3.2V...If every cell was at that voltage your pack would be at about 90V. If the 92V reading is accurate then they aren't all that low. Which means cell balance is probably high.
Do you have power tank? I have read some people have had issues with power tank getting out of whack to the rest of the pack wreaking havoc.
The lowest I have ever seen my 2014 Zero S is 91V and that was at the side of the road after the SOC suddenly dropped from 14% down to 0% and the bike decided to stop moving. I think that issue got fixed in 2015. On my 2017 Zero SR it hits 0% at about 95V or 96V and keeps going for miles.
My guess is you need a new battery...Or possibly a new BMS.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
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Hire only EEs.
Overkill.... Using engineers to do a techs job is going to cost at least $200 an hour... Probably more....A better idea would be to spend more on the front end screening parts so they don't break down in the first place....Quality control can work wonders.
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No Powertank. I really hope Zero finally admits something is wrong with my bike and replaces the monolith, and or Sevcon. I've been messing around with this thing since it lost its charger and started randomly shutting down weeks after purchase, back in 2015!
EE's get paid that much? I'm in the wrong field. How about we look for IT certifications and mechanical skills? None of my dealers have seen anything wrong with the dozen logs I've pulled, or the full logs pulled by Zero. I finally finished my degree and looked into parsing them, which it turns out is stupid easy thanks to the community now, and sure enough, I spot issues in moments, right on the time and dates I told people I had problems. I feel quite let down, I've been without my bike for about four months total now, and had serious safety issue while riding, while the logs show exactly what I'm reporting!
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EE's get paid that much? I'm in the wrong field. How about we look for IT certifications and mechanical skills?
No, they don't.... But when you go in for work that's how much you'll get charged because engineers do make a lot more than a mechanic. When you go into a shop and they want $60 or more per hour to work on your bike that mechanic isn't making $60 per hour either....You are also paying for overhead, management and profit.
I think for the most part Zero has the right approach by having tech training for dealers. My dealer sent two of his mechanics for training last year. The thing I'm not sure of is if Zero issues a certification and requires that the mechanics be certified in order to pay the dealer to do the warranty work. If they don't, they should.
I think the problem, in addition to some of those mentioned with all warranty work in general, is that Zero is just understaffed in the customer service department relative to the number of issues these bikes have. They could fix that with better quality control and/or just hire more people.
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I just want one at each regional shop, they can assist the lower paid workers. A special projects type of person, for the more difficult problems.
Last I heard, the dealers pay to send their people to training. Hopefully that isn't the case, because I'm not going to want to send my people to training, so they can do low paying warranty work (mostly involving connecting the bike to a laptop and letting Zero remote in).
The profits seem slim, especially if 10% of all bikes are flawed. I agree, either increase quality control, which I'm sure is much more difficult that it sounds (and they've already made huge strides compared to bikes from just a few years ago), or staff the support section better. I'm still astounded that my logs keep coming back as good, and there's, "nothing wrong with my bike". This is why I bought a helmet cam, to capture the bike "working perfectly" as I glide without power to the side of the road. The more I think about it, the agrier I get.
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I dealt with civil engineering companies for many years. The rule-of-thumb is that the companies charge 2.2 times the engineer's salary when doing their billing. I wouldn't be surprised if that still holds true today.
The motorcycle mechanics that I have talked with say that their shops charge about twice their hourly rate, plus the cost of their benefits like health care, on the invoice. Most motorcycle dealers in the SF Bay Area are now charging $130 an hour and that rate is going nowhere but up, as it is not cheap to live in this area and if they don't pay their technicians enough, they have to move out of the area and then you get no service at all. :(
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Yeah, most government contracting work, the people get paid up to 50% of their hourly/annual rate. Sounds about standard.
Tried calling my mechanic yesterday and today. I can't get through to him, he's busy. Probably busy working on paying customers. I'm shooting for 6 months of total shop time before my 2 year warranty expires. Looks like I'm on track. I E-mailed everyone I know at Zero yesterday also. They'd better not fix my plastics and tell me to come pick it up, with it's 92 volt at 68% SOC and 190amp performance.
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I just want one at each regional shop, they can assist the lower paid workers. A special projects type of person, for the more difficult problems.
Last I heard, the dealers pay to send their people to training. Hopefully that isn't the case, because I'm not going to want to send my people to training, so they can do low paying warranty work (mostly involving connecting the bike to a laptop and letting Zero remote in).
The profits seem slim, especially if 10% of all bikes are flawed. I agree, either increase quality control, which I'm sure is much more difficult that it sounds (and they've already made huge strides compared to bikes from just a few years ago), or staff the support section better. I'm still astounded that my logs keep coming back as good, and there's, "nothing wrong with my bike". This is why I bought a helmet cam, to capture the bike "working perfectly" as I glide without power to the side of the road. The more I think about it, the agrier I get.
Quality control really has a few components. Setting tolerances that are reasonable and screening very strictly to those tolerances and using data from failures experienced in the field to make future iterations of the product better. In addition, the screening has to be strictly enforced at every step in the supply chain. For example, Zero buys chargers from GWP. All Zero can really do is perform a functional check of the charger to ensure it meets their spec. If a charger isn't calibrated correctly to 116.2V +/- some tolerance then it should be rejected and sent back to GWP. Either that's not happening at Zero or they have high tolerance because I have seen more than one charger calibrated to 117V. That's not going to kill your bike but it is indicative of the steps Zero is taking during production.
But even if that passes with tight tolerances, things can go wrong. Which is why Zero should flow their tolerances down to GWP. They would have conversations with them about what tolerances GWP accepts for all their components and they would negotiate the tolerances Zero wants GWP to accept for chargers Zero buys from GWP. If components are outside the tolerance then GWP either rejects the parts or uses them in chargers that are sold to other customers that will accept higher tolerances. GWP would then need to flow tolerance requirements down to all their suppliers and so on down the line and Zero should be requiring GWP to do that and following up to make sure it's happening.
This is the way it would happen for a company like Honda or BMW. From a cost perspective it's harder for Zero because they don't sell enough volume to amortize the cost. It's not really that hard but requires up front investment which can sometimes be challenging to convince the decision makers needs to be spent. After all , it's hard to increase volume when you don't have a reliable product to sell but it's hard to spend the money when you don't have the volume. It's likely that it's not happening in a lot of cases and Zero is just buying parts 'off the shelf' and mostly accepting whatever gets sent their way. I know for certain that they are following a process for the batteries but I don't know what kinds of tolerances they are accepting. I agree Zero has made some pretty big improvements over the years but they definitely still have work to do.
And, yes, I know for a fact that dealers pay for the techs to go to training. I also know that there is some online work that has to be completed (this could just be for the case where a dealer wants to send a salesperson to the training as opposed to a tech) before they will accept an individual at the training. Beyond that I don't know what the exact arrangement is but some of the assumptions made in this thread may or may not be true. For example, the degree to which the dealer gets paid for the warranty work and how profitable it is for the dealer. It's possible that the dealer may get higher compensation if the tech is trained or it could be that Zero requires techs doing warranty work to be certified and pays the dealers fairly.
Zero really should consider certifying the dealerships themselves in addition to certifying the techs. A particular shop might be allowed to sell Zero's but might not be certified for warranty work or after warranty repairs. After warranty period Zero could back any repairs done if you take it to a certified dealer....in other words if you take your bike in for a new charger after warranty is over and the dealer messes up your bike then Zero pays for it as long as the work was done by a certified dealer. This is a benefit to Zero because they can maintain a network of high quality service centers that won't cause more issues than they solve and it's a win for the customer because they can make the decision to either go to a certified dealer or risk it with a dealer or other shop that's not certified by Zero.
Also, for any dealer that says they stopped selling Zero's because of issues getting parts from or dealing with Zero...in some cases it's probably true. But in some cases I bet Zero actually dropped the dealer, not the other way around. If you are only getting the dealers side of the story it's hard to say for sure.
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The "good news" is that if the battery is at fault, you got a 5 year warranty on that, right? So, 3 more years to spend in the shop :(
It's either the battery that has a bad cell or one of the BMS per-cell module might be reporting or reading wrong, which is probably even worse ...
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Get this, an EE wrote me back. lol. :)
Paraphrasing -
The power reduction looks weird, but not indicative of a short. A short would be causing the entire bike to shut down.
Reply paraphrased -
Here's videos of my bike shutting down while riding it, please reference the dozen+ phone logs and three dealers that have uploaded logs due to complaints of bike shutdown issues.
I am seriously thrilled. She's going to work with the dealer and look into it. I could cry. Dozens of e-mails. Calls to dealers. I bought a helmet cam to try to capture the shutdowns even, to prove I wasn't lying or crazy, since there's never anything in the logs. The embarrassment of my gear head friends learning that my eBike has had issues and no one can find a root cause. Finally, it could all be at an end.
Right as my warranty expires.
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Since I was in the parser, I pulled up my SR logs. 28% power available at 64% SOC. Yeah, that checks out, seems normal. Nothing wrong with this bike...
07615 01/11/2017 14:26:18 Riding PackTemp: h 19C, l 19C, PackSOC: 64%, Vpack: 92.516V, MotAmps: 148, BattAmps: 188, Mods: 10, MotTemp: 69C, CtrlTemp: 26C, AmbTemp: 15C, MotRPM:4564, Odo:12518km
07616 01/11/2017 14:26:18 Batt Dischg Cur Limited 199 A (28%), MinCell: 3249mV, MaxPackTemp: 19C
When I got home:
07639 01/11/2017 14:37:18 Disarmed PackTemp: h 24C, l 24C, PackSOC: 53%, Vpack:102.373V, MotAmps: 0, BattAmps: 2, Mods: 01, MotTemp: 59C, CtrlTemp: 21C, AmbTemp: 13C, MotRPM: 0, Odo:12530km
Not sure why it happened but at 64% the logs show 92V which is really low and would cause the bike to reduce power....But when you got home and at 53% it reads 102V which is still lower than I would expect for a bike that's at 53%.
Also at 64% your log shows min cell is at 3.2V...If every cell was at that voltage your pack would be at about 90V. If the 92V reading is accurate then they aren't all that low. Which means cell balance is probably high.
Do you have power tank? I have read some people have had issues with power tank getting out of whack to the rest of the pack wreaking havoc.
The lowest I have ever seen my 2014 Zero S is 91V and that was at the side of the road after the SOC suddenly dropped from 14% down to 0% and the bike decided to stop moving. I think that issue got fixed in 2015. On my 2017 Zero SR it hits 0% at about 95V or 96V and keeps going for miles.
My guess is you need a new battery...Or possibly a new BMS.
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When you were at 91v, you weren't putting a load on the battery, were you? They should go down several volts at high load.
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Finally, I'm simply very happy that I can ride again since the weather in Germany started getting very good lately.
Picked up my bike yesterday and chances are that the French tire shop broke the rear sprocket/axle when changing the tire. It makes sense in so far that the symptoms occured after the change and faulty tire changes have been reportedly causing the sprocket to run uneven. Glad they resolved it under warranty (even though it took quite a while). Any future tire change will be done by a certified Zero dealer or myself I guess.
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EE's get paid that much? I'm in the wrong field. How about we look for IT certifications and mechanical skills?
No, they don't.... But when you go in for work that's how much you'll get charged because engineers do make a lot more than a mechanic. When you go into a shop and they want $60 or more per hour to work on your bike that mechanic isn't making $60 per hour either....You are also paying for overhead, management and profit.
I think for the most part Zero has the right approach by having tech training for dealers. My dealer sent two of his mechanics for training last year. The thing I'm not sure of is if Zero issues a certification and requires that the mechanics be certified in order to pay the dealer to do the warranty work. If they don't, they should.
I think the problem, in addition to some of those mentioned with all warranty work in general, is that Zero is just understaffed in the customer service department relative to the number of issues these bikes have. They could fix that with better quality control and/or just hire more people.
Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
Ah yes, the local stealership... the only way I correspond with them anymore is via email with every zero rep CC'd that I know about. Otherwise I get no response at all. I don't bother calling them up anymore, as they are too busy working on carburetors for a royal enfield to deal with my pesky warranty issues....
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I am understanding the dealership billable hours get paid by Zero Motorcycles for warranty work, or is that not true?
To be honest, I really don't know but that is probably how it works.
I also sent e-mail directly to Zero EU but they didn't bother answering.
Lucky me, I got an reply from Zero EU. They apologised for the delay and told that the batterypack was shipped on 11th of April. ?? ?? ?? ?? I left my bike to the dealer in January and at the beginning of February they ordered a new battery pack. So apparently the battery pack was sent just after my e-mail directly to Zero EU. I don't know if this is just a consequence or not. I also still don't know if the battery pack has been sent from Europe or USA.
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7 weeks and counting now.
My dealer checks the shipping log every day and there is still no indication of a delivery date for my replacement rear wheel.
I spoke to Streetbike, our main UK dealer. I bought my bike from them and have nothing but great things to say about their attitude and customer service. In fact, I'll be very surprised if I ever come across a better dealership. However, they too report serious difficulties getting parts from Zero with little or no information available to them.
Somehow it seems that Zero themselves don't know if they've shipped a part!
As usual, Streetbike went above and beyond all of my expectations. I was asked to drop them a line detailing the issues I've had. That was then sent onto Zero's European HQ and we received this reply:
We from team Holland want to sincerely apologize for this parts problem. We feel as frustrated as you and your customers but unfortunately there is nothing more that we can do from our end in Europe.
As long as the parts are just not shipped from the US, they cannot be forwarded by 3pl.
Our after sales guys keep on hammering the importance of getting parts in and for now we can only hope that things will improve.
We would take a plane to SV to get the parts if that would help, but all we can say to you and many other dealers is: SORRY (and I know this is not the answer you want to hear nor the answer that we want to give).
***********
I don't know what to make of this sentence:
"As long as the parts are just not shipped from the US, they cannot be forwarded by 3pl."
At first I wondered if parts where not necessarily coming from the US. However, I think the "just" simply means that the bottleneck is at Scott's Valley. The parts just aren't leaving the factory.
So what does that mean?
1. They have such a backlog that whoever is responsible for shipping parts is taking weeks to get round to new orders?
2. They don't have a spare wheel in stock?
3. They are using a method of shipping that takes many weeks in order to save money?
4. They are deliberately understaffing their customer service department to save money?
One example I was given was that it took four weeks to ship a BMS board. Despite repeated attempts, nobody could find out how long it would take for the item to arrive. The customer was kept in the dark. I presume a BMS board is simply a circuit board. I would expect it is significantly smaller than a PC motherboard. Apparently these things cost 900 GBP! I'm sure I could order a $100 motherboard from the USA and have it arrive within a few days at a reasonable cost. Don't tell me Zero don't stock spare BMS boards... please(?)
So the only conclusion I can make from all off this is that Zero's Customer Service department is utterly incompetent. Not only that, but senior management have allowed this incompetence to continue for years, as far as I can tell. I'm sure there are lots of excuses, but we don't want to hear them.
Zero need to get their act together and very quickly. I think it probably needs new management and new staff. The current incumbents have been getting it wrong for longer than is acceptable. Something as important as this should work well from the outset.
After all this, I wish I kept my Honda NC750 SD. Or even the VFR 1200FD and its sky high running costs. But then I wouldn't have had the pleasure of riding my Zero. I hope, by some magic, that my bike is back on the road soon.
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I'm guessing they aren't exactly swimming in profits, so they don't hire the number of people for the loss center that is customer service. If I were calling from a volume customer, like a police department, I'm sure I'd get much better results. But alas, I only own two.
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My begging worked, Zero contacted the dealership Saturday and got another copy of the logs. Come on, find all the voltage drops. Please tell me they didn't wipe the logs with a firmware update already. I can't bring it in for another 1-2 month long visit and be told nothing's wrong with it again!
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Over the past 5 years I have taken a couple of tours of the factory. I was never overly visibly impressed by Zero's parts department size and apparent inventory. My guess is that they just don't have any extra unused parts like wheels and frames in stock to supply for sale or warranty claims, as everything that they buy is sucked up in producing new motorcycles. ??? It can't really be a labor issue as shipping out an available part upon request certainly would only take a few minutes of someones time. The only logical reason for not doing so is that the requested part is not in stock and requires many months to obtain from the original supplier - or perhaps they just wait until the parts for next year's bikes are ordered and add one more on for back-ordered items. ???
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Zero is hiring a engineer in customer service.
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I was contacted by an EE in customer service last week. Hopefully she's the one that contacted my dealer this Saturday. They sent more logs over the weekend, per my request. Please find the weeks of voltage drops after the logs I E-mailed in and tell me my pack is shorting or something is wrong! 2 years of troubleshooting and pulling teeth to get help!
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I was contacted by an EE in customer service last week. Hopefully she's the one that contacted my dealer this Saturday. They sent more logs over the weekend, per my request. Please find the weeks of voltage drops after the logs I E-mailed in and tell me my pack is shorting or something is wrong! 2 years of troubleshooting and pulling teeth to get help!
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you nev. An engineer in customer service would be a very positive thing.
Thanks for your input again Richard. I fear you are probably right. I asked Streetbike if they still had any 2014 DSP bikes left. The light hearted response was: "You're joking, aren't you?"
They did have a number of DSP bikes in stock for many months due to our government dragging its heels over the subsidy. In the end, I think all the customers who had expressed an interest in one took the plunge before the subsidy became available. By now, I think Zero have managed to clear all their stock of 2014 bikes. There is always going to be someone out there willing to buy them at the right price.
So basically, I'm stuffed. No stock of spares and probably no stock of bikes they could tear down for spares. If that is the case, I'm going to be extremely angry with Zero for not telling me that in the first place. I'm sure the rear wheel could have been refurbished by now. Or I could have been offered a rear wheel from a 2017 model. The frame is essentially unchanged and I don't care about having spokes.
Yet again, it's the lack of communication that's the biggest issue here. If I had some solid information to go on and a dialogue with Zero, then I'd be back on my bike by now. Instead, I've been kept in the dark and all I can do is complain and speculate.
Thanks Zero, thank you very bloody much!
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My dealer says Zero told them they'd two day air the new plastics over...five or six weeks ago. They haven't gotten any updates since. It seems like Zero grew too fast, everything from shipping/wharehouse, customer service, anything not sales related, is just crazy laid back. No fcks given. Unless it's a section that brings in money. Sales? Advertising? They're on their game.
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I asked about ordering a new 2017 tank in Jan/Feb and was told that there's a backorder. Ordered it late-March and it's arriving tomorrow with FedEx. Did you pay for the tank? If not, guessing your dealer is ignoring you. If yes, ask your dealer to show you the order, redacting whatever he may want of the commercial terms.
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It's a warranty replacement. Previous dealer did an unauthorized brake fluid flush and caused a leak. Red tank ended up stained with pink dots. He also scratched the tank bag somehow. Before Zero quit speaking to me, they said they would authorize their replacement under warranty. The dealer, just like the last two, spent a lot of time looking into the bike with Zero, but can't find anything mechanically or electronically wrong with it, so they called me and said it was good and Zero was sending them new plastics, over a month ago.
I called twice and they said they were still waiting on the plastics. I don't think they want my bike sitting around in their shop any more than I do, and they even said it looks bad on them that my bike has been there for so long already. I think they're leaning on Zero. I got ahold of a manager, he wasn't happy with how I've been treated also. I'm curious how many dealerships I'm going to cause to drop Zeros.
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Dealers dropping the Zero brand should be a real concern for all of us. Dealers talk to each other and if the word gets around that the Zero brand is nothing but trouble for its dealers and their customers, dealers will start dropping the franchise and that will cut sales and really hurt their customers who already own the bikes and are dependent upon a franchised dealer for parts, repairs and service. :(
I know that my BMW dealer decided not to pick up the Zero franchise last year because they were not confident that they would receive the sort of BMW-level after-sales support that they believe that their customers expect.
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The fact that they all seem to be selling quite well, or at least they say they are, may be dampening the blow. The service departments of the ones that haven't dropped Zero seem quite frustrated, that's for sure. Last one I spoke to said they weren't very happy with Zero, but that they weren't dropping them. Seems like they get some slack for being a smaller manufacture.
But yeah, once you get a reputation for selling alien technology that dealers can't fix, with parts supply and support weak, the dealers may not want to keep it around.
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Yup, "firmware update fixes the random slowdowns". Once the plastics arrive, they're giving it back to me.
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Yup, "firmware update fixes the random slowdowns". Once the plastics arrive, they're giving it back to me.
Well that should be easy to verify before you take delivery of it. Grab a copy of the MBB and BMS logs, and compare to the "before" version you had.
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This part of their message was confusing:
"The intermittent cut outs are a bit more difficult to determine in the logs, but it looked like they happened most often after charging, without completely turning off the bike. I would recommend key cycling the bike after charging the bike, and before riding."
Are they admitting that they can see my cutouts but it's my fault for not turning the bike off and on at the right times when charging?
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Sounds to me like they're suggesting you try something, and see if the problem remains. If the problem goes away, then you could try the other way and cause the problem again. That could narrow down the possibilities and lead some better information for developing a fix.
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It sounds like they think my bike is on while charging some times? I don't leave it on while charging, maybe some part of it isn't turning off? Either way, it's at the dealership, why aren't they looking into this and testing it? They want to send it home after the plastics are back on. I can't help but think I'm going to be riding it back there the next weekend after I take it home.
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Can't they give you the bike back to use until the plastics arrive? (how far away is the dealer?)
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It's about an hour away, at the closest dealer that still works on Zeros. Apparently, most of the plastics are already on it now, they're still waiting on one though.
I'm frustrated that there's something physically wrong with my bike, and I'm being given a fourth firmware update to fix it. My voltage will still drop to 92v when I'm trying to do highway speeds. If this update tells the bike that it's okay to keep putting out ~600 amps while the voltage is that low, I'm sure the voltage will drop even lower. I can't wait to see how the bike functions at 80v.
The bike will still randomly turn off when it shorts out also. Screw it, at least I got someone from Zero to reply to me once. They even looked at the logs I pointed out and finally said that there's a problem. Only took 18 months. That's sadly become a win in my book!
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7 weeks and counting now.
"snip"
After all this, I wish I kept my Honda NC750 SD. Or even the VFR 1200FD and its sky high running costs. But then I wouldn't have had the pleasure of riding my Zero. I hope, by some magic, that my bike is back on the road soon.
I thought you might regret getting rid of your NC. ;) I appreciate mine more all the time. I am so sorry that you have had to go through this prolonged wait. When my BMS failed my bike was at the dealership for 4 weeks and Scotts Valley is only 70 miles from me. If I did not have a second motorcycle I would have been a lot more impatient than I was. I know that Zero is a young company and there are bound to be teething issues but I find it mildly ironic that the simple electric motorcycle which is touted for having so few moving parts and being almost maintenance-free is far less reliable than my complicated old gas burner that has run perfectly from day one and I never think twice about it. I love my SR - but I would not be without a second motorcycle.
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7 weeks and counting now.
"snip"
After all this, I wish I kept my Honda NC750 SD. Or even the VFR 1200FD and its sky high running costs. But then I wouldn't have had the pleasure of riding my Zero. I hope, by some magic, that my bike is back on the road soon.
I thought you might regret getting rid of your NC. ;) I appreciate mine more all the time. I am so sorry that you have had to go through this prolonged wait. When my BMS failed my bike was at the dealership for 4 weeks and Scotts Valley is only 70 miles from me. If I did not have a second motorcycle I would have been a lot more impatient than I was. I know that Zero is a young company and there are bound to be teething issues but I find it mildly ironic that the simple electric motorcycle which is touted for having so few moving parts and being almost maintenance-free is far less reliable than my complicated old gas burner that has run perfectly from day one and I never think twice about it. I love my SR - but I would not be without a second motorcycle.
I felt the same for a couple of years but now it's very reliable. I hope you get yours sorted out because it is amazing once you don't have to worry about it..
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7 weeks and counting now.
"snip"
After all this, I wish I kept my Honda NC750 SD. Or even the VFR 1200FD and its sky high running costs. But then I wouldn't have had the pleasure of riding my Zero. I hope, by some magic, that my bike is back on the road soon.
I thought you might regret getting rid of your NC. ;) I appreciate mine more all the time. I am so sorry that you have had to go through this prolonged wait. When my BMS failed my bike was at the dealership for 4 weeks and Scotts Valley is only 70 miles from me. If I did not have a second motorcycle I would have been a lot more impatient than I was. I know that Zero is a young company and there are bound to be teething issues but I find it mildly ironic that the simple electric motorcycle which is touted for having so few moving parts and being almost maintenance-free is far less reliable than my complicated old gas burner that has run perfectly from day one and I never think twice about it. I love my SR - but I would not be without a second motorcycle.
I remember our conversations when I bought the NC750. It is an extremely good motorcycle. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
I'm hoping to get my Zero back on the road at some point. I'd like to put a few thousand miles on it before I get rid. At the moment, I don't know if I'll feel confident enough to keep it beyond the warranty period. I'm also going to ask that Zero extend my warranty for a year as a form of compensation.
The situation is so bad with Zero's customer service that they think that all I need is some new bearings. That's as of Wednesday. Two days ago. This is incompetence beyond belief! My dealer is as livid as I am.
It was the King's birthday in Holland yesterday, so they all had the day off. I hope they enjoyed some rest and relaxation because they're going to get both barrels today...
One new piece of information is that apparently they've shipped $250,000 worth of spares to Europe for this new distribution centre. What's the betting that there isn't a 2014 DS rear wheel amongst that lot?
I wonder if we have a lemon law here in the UK. It might be time to invoke that and get my money back. Zero simply don't have a right to sell a product with so many reliability issues and no support.
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I read this thread and I am reminded of a conversation I had with the former owner of my local motorcycle dealership. They didn't acquire the Zero brand until the new owners took over but we were discussing the multiple brands they DID carry (basically, all of the European brands).
He was comparing BMW to the motorcycles under the Piaggio umbrella (Vespa, Piaggio, Moto Guzzi and Aprilia).
He said the Piaggio brands were basically reliable motorcycles but due to their screwed-up parts department they were a NIGHTMARE to deal with. You wait for a part, call their parts line only to find out the person you'd been working with left the company and the new person had no idea what you were talking about but promised to get right on it. He said the problem wasn't limited to just their two-wheeled products either; one of their subsidiaries made airplanes and a pilot friend of his bitched about his problems getting parts for his plane.
BMW was the exact opposite. Their recent bikes are NOTORIOUSLY unreliable (Consumer Reports listed them as the second least-reliable brand just ahead of Can-Am). HOWEVER he said their parts distribution network was second to none. They warehoused nearly everything in the States and anything that had to be ordered from Europe was quickly air-freighted across.
His ideal motorcycle would've been Piaggio's reliability with BMW's parts department.
In a little over a year and over 9,000 miles I've been basically problem-free with my 2016 S. The only issue I had was the turn-signal glitch I had on delivery and it did take them two tries to get that straightened out. I also thought it took a ridiculous amount of time to get the top box (which is a GIVI product, oddly enough the mounting bracket was shipped with the bike so I really can't blame Zero on that one). The Commuter wind screen I had ordered also came pretty promptly. However it took them over three weeks to ship a replacement seat bolt recently.
I sure hope Zero gets their Parts Distribution and Service issues straightened out because otherwise I think it's a fine product. Even producing an actual Factory-authorized service manual would go a long way in this regard.
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What I find quite interesting is that when Zero realise they've messed up in quite a spectacular fashion, they still want to do the right thing.
The latest is that the wheel got "confused" but it is on its way and about three weeks out. However, because of all the delays and cock-ups, Aaron is shipping a set of wheels by air freight. ETA is next week. Note that it's a set of wheels, meaning a front and a rear. I only need a new rear wheel.
Oddly though, the other set of wheels that are going via snail mail will also get delivered to the dealer. At this point it would make more sense for them to just stop at the European distribution centre.
All being well, my bike will be back on the road next week. Hooray! My dealer will end up with three extra wheels that they don't need and will probably never require. All at Zero's expense. It makes no sense at all.
At this stage of the game it's just a relief to hear that Zero actually have a stock of 2014 DS wheels.
I'm not going to hold my breath after this whole fiasco. I will let you all know how it turns out though...
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Wow, Aaron made things right for you. It's sad that it takes the director of customer service to make things happen. I wish he'd let me know why my refund request didn't get approved.
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Wow, Aaron made things right for you. It's sad that it takes the director of customer service to make things happen. I wish he'd let me know why my refund request didn't get approved.
I was trying to be nice on the back of getting some news that gives me hope. The reality is that Aaron is at the heart of all these horror stories. If he'd bothered to set up proper processes and procedures in the first place, none of this would be happening.
It's one of those situations that I'm becoming increasingly aware of in business. Bad practice and a lack of any organisation and structure just leads to utter chaos. Everything becomes such a mess that people are just reacting to the next phone call or threatening email all the time. Most emails get ignored. In that environment the only way to achieve anything is to doorstep them.
All I can suggest is that you call them. You will probably speak to Jennifer who was very helpful. She told me that she doesn't get phone calls like mine very often. Either that was a lie or people aren't ringing them enough.
I would say its worth ringing them about your refund. Remind them about the dates and times of emails. Resend them all. Just keep at them. If you live nearby, visit them. Just keep going there regularly until you reach a satisfactory outcome. It shouldn't be that way, but it is unfortunately.
Good luck!
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I am understanding the dealership billable hours get paid by Zero Motorcycles for warranty work, or is that not true?
To be honest, I really don't know but that is probably how it works.
I also sent e-mail directly to Zero EU but they didn't bother answering.
Lucky me, I got an reply from Zero EU. They apologised for the delay and told that the batterypack was shipped on 11th of April. ?? ?? ?? ?? I left my bike to the dealer in January and at the beginning of February they ordered a new battery pack. So apparently the battery pack was sent just after my e-mail directly to Zero EU. I don't know if this is just a consequence or not. I also still don't know if the battery pack has been sent from Europe or USA.
Still no sight of the battery pack. :( Also, no reply from Zero EU to my e-mail I sent three weeks ago...
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Waiting for my plastics since March. I hear you. Have you written Zero CA? They'll reply, for a while.
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Waiting for my plastics since March. I hear you. Have you written Zero CA? They'll reply, for a while.
Haven't tried that yet but I guess it wouldn't hurt to try. Seems to me that ZERO doesn't really care about their customers after sales. I would have some sympathy for the company if they would at least explain what's causing the very unacceptable delay. But no. Lack of communication is not a good customer service strategy.
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I have some news. Firstly, the rear wheel finally arrived, was fitted yesterday and I picked my bike up this morning. Exactly 2 months after I went in for new bearings.
Even after all the aggravation, it still took Zero a week to ship parts via air freight directly from California. It's obvious that gross incompetence and/or negligence resulted in the parts not being ordered until I and my dealer had sent multiple emails and made phone calls. I've also used other channels to get the message through and I can share a statement from Zero with you:
Thanks for your email and explaining the situation in the field.
Both the EU as the US team are aware that the after-sales in Europe is far from going well at the moment. When the decision was made to directly supply from America, they quickly discovered that there were much more complications and difficulties as they initially expected. The point where we are now at the moment, official announcement has not been made yet, is that we appointed a Third Party Logistics warehouse who will handle all of our parts shipments. We are filling their warehouse more with each time to ensure that we will have the majority of common and fast moving parts in stock and available from an European location. What still will be a challenge is the quick availability of certain Power-Train Components, such as BMS, MBB, CCU, Controller etc.. The reason for this is that these parts need to be VIN specific programmed and at the moment the team in the US are the only ones who have the tools and capabilities to carry this out. We are looking into having a better option also for these portion of parts so we can also store these in Europe and supply our dealers with these.
Bettering the parts availability and deliverability is one of highest priorities at the moment and we are doing everything we can to better this and provide better and reasonable services towards our dealers and customers again. I know we are saying this for a while now as we unfortunately also came across a lot of implications during the way.
We and I personally want to thank you guys there for your ongoing patient and still sticking by us, very much appreciated. Please hang in there….we’re almost there…
With kind regards,
Met vriendelijke groet,
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You just threw Met under the bus publicly. lol. Hopefully they do improve things this year in Europe. I'd love for my bike to be truly fix with this latest firmware, I doubt it will however.
I fear I'll never get to tour on my bike that I keep buying quick chargers for, but am afraid to use since it keeps having problems and I don't want to risk being blamed for them with aftermarket accessories. *SIGH* Looks like there's a half dozen new eBike manufactures comes out with products this year, hopefully one of them has their acts together from the start.
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I have some news. Firstly, the rear wheel finally arrived, was fitted yesterday and I picked my bike up this morning. Exactly 2 months after I went in for new bearings.
It feels good to have your bike back....Am I rite? Glad you finally got everything worked out 😀
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
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I have some news. Firstly, the rear wheel finally arrived, was fitted yesterday and I picked my bike up this morning. Exactly 2 months after I went in for new bearings.
It feels good to have your bike back....Am I rite? Glad you finally got everything worked out [emoji3]
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
Spot on mrwilsn and thanks. I should have mentioned that in my last post.
In fact I'm sat in a cafe enjoying a beer during a ride out in the countryside. A Zero on the back roads during British Summer is hard to beat. I've been riding a Suzuki SV 650 for the last few weeks. It's a great bike in many ways, but my Zero is in a league of its own. The handling is far better and it's just so nice to get back to enjoying all the benefits of an electric bike.
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You just threw Met under the bus publicly. lol. Hopefully they do improve things this year in Europe. I'd love for my bike to be truly fix with this latest firmware, I doubt it will however.
I fear I'll never get to tour on my bike that I keep buying quick chargers for, but am afraid to use since it keeps having problems and I don't want to risk being blamed for them with aftermarket accessories. *SIGH* Looks like there's a half dozen new eBike manufactures comes out with products this year, hopefully one of them has their acts together from the start.
Oh contraire nev! I'm simply pointing out that somebody at Zero has the balls to put something in writing and apologise for the the totally ridiculous state of affairs. If anything, Met is golden.
The worst aspect of this whole debacle has been the lack of any information whatsoever. What little information I've been given by others has proved to be nothing but misinformation.
Others have said, and I do believe this to be true, that the folks at Zero are good people at heart. What is such a great shame is that whatever systems they have in place are making them out to be the opposite.
Buy the quick chargers nev. Go touring on your bike and enjoy it. I'm don't recall the current status of your bike, but when it is fixed, and it will be, just make the most of it. If you go with electric cowboy's supercharger, I don't think you'll have any trouble with Zero support. They all know each other and EC has made a great product, as far as I can tell.
As frustrating as it has been, for far too many, for far too long, I think it will all start coming together with Zero soon. They are making the right moves, they just need to be managed better.
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Random bike shutdowns. Random power output limited to ~28%. Voltage drops to 92 volts. Five months in the shop. Lots of firmware updates. Warranty expires in two months. If I use the supercharger that I currently have, and have any more issues, they're going to see it in the logs and blame it. I had an Elcon before it, but never did more than one test with it to make sure it worked. I thought my issues were going to be fixed last year, so I bought the supercharger. :(
My bike wouldn't start and the dash flashed lights for a while. Someone came by with a dongle and looked at the errors for me, since there were no dealers in the area at the time. Zero tried to blame the dongle for it - even though it was used after the fact as a diagnostic tool!
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Where are you based nev?
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The wrong coast of the US for good support. Just outside of Washington DC.
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So you really shouldn't be suffering like us Europeans with supply problems. Parts should get shipped within days, I would expect.
I have a strong feeling that a lot of the problems are down to communications. Once Zero realised the terrible service they'd provided they put it right. I think your challenge is to get your message through to them. Call them. Be nice and just explain your predicament to Jennifer. If that doesn't work, ask to speak to the CEO. Be nice and explain how you and many other customers have been failed by the customer service department. See what reaction you get and post it here. Pretend you're the leading role in Shawshank Redemption asking for library books. Keep at them. They have to answer the phone. Emails they can ignore. If enough people do the same they'll do something about it.
Also try the sales director. He or she won't like hearing that after sales service is putting potential customers off.
If all else fails, look up your local lemon laws. They can't continue to do this to their customers and keep their business running, so it has to change quickly.
Also, make sure you ask for a two year extension to your warranty.
I hope that helps.
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With kind regards,
Met vriendelijke groet,
You just threw Met under the bus publicly.
If anything, Met is golden.
[emoji1] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji1]
(sorry, guys, you are really funny. Seldom laughed that much [emoji23])
But good to hear from Zero that someone has recognized and apparently is working to remedy the problems they have (although that guy if probably neither 'Met vriendelijke groet' nor 'With kind regards' [emoji1]).
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LMAO! That's funny. If we had a brain cell between us, it would be lonely...
Here's a picture of my new wheel:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170507/56182c6eb49456080f577969a88b08f5.jpg)
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I'm facing these troubles right now as well. Five weeks ago I bought a 2016 Zero SR here in Germany. The only thing that needs to be done is replacing the front brakes. During the test drive I heard them grinding and felt the deceleration varying during one turn of the wheel. The mechanics told me it somehow got a "hit", so my dealer ordered new brakes right away and we agreed to
handover the bike after repair.
As you might have already guessed, we never heard from Zero ever since. No spare parts, no delivery date, not even a tracking ID. Nothing. I started asking Zero Europe last week. They apologised and got after it. But the only thing they found out is that the brakes haven’t been received from the US yet. Well, I appreciate the apology but I didn’t get any wiser so far. Putting a few parts in a box and sending it to Germany is no rocket-science so I dearly hope at least that has happened...
Not only wants my dealer to cut me out of the contract because he can’t see an imminent delivery date, but I also start asking myself if I really want this. Of course I fell in love with the Zero but am I ready to be grounded for months every time I need spare parts? A new tire? What if my BMS decides to go toes up? Reading all your suffering makes me wonder if I made the right decision spending loads of money for a Zero.
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"Power-Train Components, such as BMS, MBB, CCU, Controller etc.. The reason for this is that these parts need to be VIN specific programmed and at the moment the team in the US are the only ones who have the tools and capabilities to carry this out."
Well that's good to know if any of these fail out of warranty, you will not be able to use parts from another Zero to replace them, only Zero HQ can program them.
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With kind regards,
Met vriendelijke groet,
You just threw Met under the bus publicly.
If anything, Met is golden.
[emoji1] [emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji1]
(sorry, guys, you are really funny. Seldom laughed that much [emoji23])
But good to hear from Zero that someone has recognized and apparently is working to remedy the problems they have (although that guy if probably neither 'Met vriendelijke groet' nor 'With kind regards' [emoji1]).
Hah, I was curious why there was another comma at the end of the second line.
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Reminds me of the time I worked for a major software company back in the Nineties and one of our Hawaiian clients signed off a letter with "Mahalo." My co-worker addressed his response:
"Dear Mahalo..."
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"Power-Train Components, such as BMS, MBB, CCU, Controller etc.. The reason for this is that these parts need to be VIN specific programmed and at the moment the team in the US are the only ones who have the tools and capabilities to carry this out."
Well that's good to know if any of these fail out of warranty, you will not be able to use parts from another Zero to replace them, only Zero HQ can program them.
Plastics and charger each took over a month to air freight to me. Not to mention each of the three shops waiting a few weeks to get started, I'm guessing Zero's negotiated rate for warranty work isn't all that great. Second place to troubleshoot mine did annual maintenance without asking, tried to charge me for that and troubleshooting, because they put dozens of hours into working on it and didn't want to take the loss.
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Reminds me of the time I worked for a major software company back in the Nineties and one of our Hawaiian clients signed off a letter with "Mahalo." My co-worker addressed his response:
"Dear Mahalo..."
In my defense, the last line was cut off, and Met vriendelijke groet isn't exactly a common saying, like "Mahalo". :p
With kind regards,
Met vriendelijke groet,
Missing name here
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Great news! The new battery pack has arrived in Finland and I should get the bike back and running next week! :)
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Well Zero better step it up as this is coming.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6901.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6901.0)
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There's lots of new eBikes coming this year. I have two friends that want me to pick up a 2017 SR with them and form an eBiker gang. I'm trying to not scare them off from eBikes with my story, just telling them to wait for better. They're new to riding, I'm tempted to get them started on Evokes. $5,500 special introductory price! I'll trade my junk in for that and hire a lawyer with the extra.
http://evokemotorcycles.com/urban-s/ (http://evokemotorcycles.com/urban-s/)
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Does anyone here know how much shipping costs? I think people waiting four weeks are having parts shipped by sea. That's understandable for a battery that weighs a lot and probably can't be shipped by air anyway, due to the fire risk. However, many components are light. A circuit board be need programming, but this probably takes all of five minutes.
The delays are down to people not checking their email. We can all let things slip without the right procedures in place.
A ruthless fixer would just fire the entire customer service team and start again. For whatever reason they've become too complacent.
Zero need to take a leaf out of this guy's book. The first few minutes are worth watching:
https://youtu.be/0Cy_VOHbXzk
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Last year I ordered a wax cotton jacket from the UK and it arrived at my doorstep in California just 3 days after my order was received. :) I think the shipping company was a firm called Speedway. ??? So I am thinking that it is still possible to ship things internationally by airplane. ;) I might add that it takes about 2 weeks for purchases that I make from Amazon to arrive and their warehouse is less than 100 miles away. So I guess it depends upon the shipping method specified by the company. :(
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Yeah, just shy of 6 weeks for plastics to go from the West coast to the East coast. They were supposed to be air freighted over, like, next day. Apparently, some of it arrived a few weeks ago, but not all of it. I hope it's ready for this weekend, just 2 months after dropping it off!
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Maybe zero should start using USPS , I purchased and received plastics from a forum member in under 4 days from shipping notice to pick up , and that's going from California across an international border to Toronto, Ontario , Canada
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Exactly. There is so much competition in the shipping business that I don't think the delays are in that area. Not everything can be sent via air freight though, batteries being a good example.
The problem Zero have is that orders simply aren't leaving the factory in a timely manner. There's a step that involves people doing their jobs and they aren't doing them properly. There is a lack of any proper organisation, process and procedure at Scott's Valley. They need a proper system but are so snowed under and bogged down by the sheer workload that they haven't got time to implement anything. Whatever process they do have is far too manual and prone to error. No method of shipping works if the shipping company doesn't receive instructions.
Have you ever watched one of those tv programmes where a successful business person spends a few months working with a company to get it back on its feet and solve some of its fundamental problems? Zero needs one of those visits. In fact, an episode based on an electric motorcycle company would be good telly.
It only takes one or two people in key positions who aren't motivated for whatever reason for things to break down. I wouldn't be surprised if psychology and human nature have a role to play here. Ten years is plenty of time for people to go stale. Perhaps they weren't the right people for the job in the first place. Just somebody's friend who needed to earn a living. Anyone can do customer service, right? No qualifications required!
If at its heart Zero is a good company (as anecdotal evidence suggests), then this incompetence needs to be flushed out. Training and new systems or fresh blood and new systems.
This would all happen a lot faster if Zero had some serious competition, or they got swallowed up by one of the big manufacturers.
I do hope we see some strong evidence that customer service is improving; very soon and for everybody's sake.
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Great news! The new battery pack has arrived in Finland and I should get the bike back and running next week! :)
Not so great news...
Some update to my misery with Zero: The battery pack was indeed replaced in mid May. However, also the MBB was diagnosed to be faulty. So now we are waiting for Zero to bother to send the MBB to my dealer. I'm not too hopeful that I can ride my SR this summer. The bike has been at the dealer for warranty repair about six months now (from mid January).
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Have you E-mailed corporate customer service back in America? That is not acceptable.
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Have you E-mailed corporate customer service back in America? That is not acceptable.
Yes I have. I sent them an e-mail on May just before I received the new battery pack. I had asked Zero Europe about the estimate of the arrival of the battery pack. They never replied so I sent the same question also to Zero USA. I never had a response from them either.
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Great news! The new battery pack has arrived in Finland and I should get the bike back and running next week! :)
Not so great news...
Some update to my misery with Zero: The battery pack was indeed replaced in mid May. However, also the MBB was diagnosed to be faulty. So now we are waiting for Zero to bother to send the MBB to my dealer. I'm not too hopeful that I can ride my SR this summer. The bike has been at the dealer for warranty repair about six months now (from mid January).
My advice on this one is to send an email directly to Aaron.Cheatham. Explain the issues you've had in detail and all the delays. Write it as though this is your first correspondence. Then, as soon as you can after you've sent it follow it up with a call to the U.S. Customer Service line. Be really nice to the person you speak to. Ask them to confirm that Aaron has received your email. Offer to forward it directly to them too. You should be told that they will bring the email to Aaron's attention and he will endeavor to respond within a day or two.
Ask them to send the MBB via air freight if it hasn't been dispatched yet.
Also, when all is over and done, send Aaron an email asking him to extend your warranty. I got mine extended by a year to compensate me for all my additional expenses etc. for the three months my bike has been off the road since I bought it.
I hope that helps.
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Thank you for the advise MostlyBonkers! I sent an e-mail directly to Aaron. Let's see if he will reply
I am beginning to get really tired with dealing this situation. Over 6 months without the bike, dozens of e-mails sent to the dealer, multiple visits to the dealer to talk about the situation... It feels really wrong that I should see so much trouble just to get decent customer service!
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Thank you for the advise MostlyBonkers! I sent an e-mail directly to Aaron. Let's see if he will reply
I am beginning to get really tired with dealing this situation. Over 6 months without the bike, dozens of e-mails sent to the dealer, multiple visits to the dealer to talk about the situation... It feels really wrong that I should see so much trouble just to get decent customer service!
Kind of makes you wonder how your dealer is feeling about being a Zero franchise right about now. If other motorcycle retail dealers hear about issues like this that is not going to help expand the Zero sales network. :(
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Thank you for the advise MostlyBonkers! I sent an e-mail directly to Aaron. Let's see if he will reply
I am beginning to get really tired with dealing this situation. Over 6 months without the bike, dozens of e-mails sent to the dealer, multiple visits to the dealer to talk about the situation... It feels really wrong that I should see so much trouble just to get decent customer service!
Kind of makes you wonder how your dealer is feeling about being a Zero franchise right about now. If other motorcycle retail dealers hear about issues like this that is not going to help expand the Zero sales network. :(
Hang out on a forum where one of the Piaggio-owned brands (Moto Guzzi, Aprilia, Vespa, Piaggio) is discussed some time. You can commiserate with them. :P
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Aaron Cheatham replied very promptly to my e-mail. He seems like an attentive guy. I think I'm slowly getting my faith back on Zero. :)
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Aaron Cheatham replied very promptly to my e-mail. He seems like an attentive guy. I think I'm slowly getting my faith back on Zero. :)
He's a super guy and showed me the trick to doing belt alignment. When my dealer was confused and doing it their way unsuccessfully (all day long) to contact Zero via phone for a BMS firmware update, I called and Aaron answered, we had the matter resolved within the hour.
What I gather is that it can be difficult to even be aware of the communication breakdowns, and it's a better long-term investment of resources to fix the process than to track down every single Zero owner and survey them to try and fix problems one-by-one. If the process was broken at some point in the past, or a bad sub-contracted employee somewhere in the supply chain, you end up with this gap in service that is difficult to address.
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Thank you for the advise MostlyBonkers! I sent an e-mail directly to Aaron. Let's see if he will reply
I am beginning to get really tired with dealing this situation. Over 6 months without the bike, dozens of e-mails sent to the dealer, multiple visits to the dealer to talk about the situation... It feels really wrong that I should see so much trouble just to get decent customer service!
You are most welcome maggot. Feel free to send me your email address and I'll reply back so you've got mine. That way I might me able to help some more; reviewing emails before you send them, giving my opinion on any responses etc. I know people often don't want to post that kind of stuff on a forum and often it would be inappropriate to do so.
I'm happy to extend that offer to anyone else reading this thread too. Despite going through a lot of hassle, I do feel I've had some success with Zero. If I can help any of you make some progress with your issues, then I would find that rewarding. It might even help Zero out a bit too, which I would like. I discovered that Zero do deserve some faith and hope to see others taken care of. After all, their bikes are an absolute joy to ride and it's a shame to hear that bikers are being denied that pleasure for long periods.
It's up to you, but do follow up with that phone call I recommended next week. If you can get verbal confirmation that your email has been received, then there's a much better chance of it getting some attention.
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Aaron Cheatham replied very promptly to my e-mail. He seems like an attentive guy. I think I'm slowly getting my faith back on Zero. :)
Great news maggot! I was writing my last post when you sent your update, so I've only just seen it.
One of the most effective things Zero could do is give Aaron an Assistant. I think Jennifer may be helping a lot here. She sometimes answers the phone and she was very helpful and understanding when I spoke to her. I don't know what Jennifer's role is, but she seems to be making a difference!
Do keep us posted maggot, we all want to see things work out for you, and everyone else with issues for that matter.
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Aaron Cheatham replied very promptly to my e-mail. He seems like an attentive guy. I think I'm slowly getting my faith back on Zero. :)
He's a super guy and showed me the trick to doing belt alignment. When my dealer was confused and doing it their way unsuccessfully (all day long) to contact Zero via phone for a BMS firmware update, I called and Aaron answered, we had the matter resolved within the hour.
What I gather is that it can be difficult to even be aware of the communication breakdowns, and it's a better long-term investment of resources to fix the process than to track down every single Zero owner and survey them to try and fix problems one-by-one. If the process was broken at some point in the past, or a bad sub-contracted employee somewhere in the supply chain, you end up with this gap in service that is difficult to address.
Spot on Shadow! I think you've nailed it there. Thanks also for the story about how Aaron helped you out.
There's hope folks and we may just see some more good news on this front soon. Great stuff! :-)
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Do keep us posted maggot, we all want to see things work out for you, and everyone else with issues for that matter.
Things seem to move pretty fast now. :) Apparently the MBB just arrived at the Zero Eu headquarters in Rotterdam. It should be sent to Finland via express shipping on Monday. My frustration is beginning to fade day by day. :)
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Do keep us posted maggot, we all want to see things work out for you, and everyone else with issues for that matter.
Things seem to move pretty fast now. :) Apparently the MBB just arrived at the Zero Eu headquarters in Rotterdam. It should be sent to Finland via express shipping on Monday. My frustration is beginning to fade day by day. :)
That is fantastic maggot! If your dealer is able to jump on it when the MBB arrives, you might be back on your bike by the end of next week.
I think there's a valuable lesson to be learnt for us all here. Communications are at the core of these Customer Service issues. Therefore, if anybody out there is having difficulty, work on communication being the weak link. Unfortunately that means being proactive and chasing our dealers and Zero directly ourselves.
It sounds like Aaron's mailbox is getting a lot more attention, so hopefully we'll see improvements regardless. However, there are bound to be folks out there that are still suffering. An email to Aaron could be worthwhile.
This topic started with lots of negativity and frustration. It has certainly taken a turn for the better! I'm really happy with the way this is going.
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That is fantastic maggot! If your dealer is able to jump on it when the MBB arrives, you might be back on your bike by the end of next week.
That's what I'm hoping! :D
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Ideally this situation would be a good place for zero to start the analysis of why it happened, not just chalk it up as a win, learn from it and put processes​ in place to make sure it's not the norm
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Finally! I got my SR back from the dealer after months of waiting! I'm super pleased to enjoy the smooth electric ride again! ;D I was giggling like a little girl after the first acceleration (and all the way back to my home).
It seems as it would also have some more power than before. That might though be due not riding the bike for a very long time. I doubt that new battery pack and MBB would affect the power anyway.
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Great news maggot! I wish you many, many miles of trouble free riding to make up for it.
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Thanks MostlyBonkers! I hope this was all the trouble I have to endure with the bike. Waiting for the warranty repair was frustrating, but on the bright side, I gained 0.5kWh of energy with the new battery pack!
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Finally! I got my SR back from the dealer after months of waiting! I'm super pleased to enjoy the smooth electric ride again! ;D I was giggling like a little girl after the first acceleration (and all the way back to my home).
It seems as it would also have some more power than before. That might though be due not riding the bike for a very long time. I doubt that new battery pack and MBB would affect the power anyway.
Great to hear you got the bike back and its working great for you!
And your senses do not fail you. One of the benefits you got for all your wait is a pack that has much less internal resistance than your 2015 pack, and added to the extra half kWh of battery, you get a little less voltage sag under full throttle now then with the older pack. So you are correct the bike is a little faster than before!
If the 2015 pack sagged to 100v from 116 under full load, and the 13.0 pack only sags to 104 from 116 than 4 volts times 660 amps is about 2.5 kW or about 3 horsepower! Woohoo!
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Thank Terry for this piece of interesting information! It seems that my butt dyno is pretty accurate after all! ;D