ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: rayivers on April 09, 2017, 11:39:25 PM
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My 12T front sprocket was absolute toast and the 71T rear sprocket a mistake, so I tried something different this time. I was looking for max torque using the Zero rear sprocket, which is ultra-light and readily available. As others here have noted, 10% more torque is a very significant increase, even on my 2.8 (a 5.7 / 6.5 FX would've been much more impressive, especially on the street). The brief initial road test was a bit disappointing, but recent dirt rides were another story. Above 90% SOC most of the gain was lost in wheelspin in the dirt, but definitely good for a near loop-out in my driveway. :) It was great having the added 'pop' and drive out of corners, but even better was maintaining a decent power level down to lower SOC's which made the last lap nearly as fun as the first.
Here's the complete installation - the entire lower chain guide was replaced as the old chain had cut it in half (!), and the new mini chain guide and motor-mount protector are visible in the upper left, ahead of the shock:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/Chain%20on%20Bike%20small.jpg)
Removing the old front sprocket wasn't too bad, but had its moments. I held the sprocket with a Motion Pro 08-0008 clutch-holding tool (https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0008) & heated the M10 shaft screw for 60 sec. with a propane torch (no effect), then another 80 sec. after a 1 min. cool-down (screw came right out, using an M6 key socket & impact gun). The hollow motor shaft was half full of PB Blaster or similar anti-rust fluid. The setscrews came right out with an M3 key socket / impact gun. A gear puller was then used to pull the sprocket off the shaft; it was on there pretty tight. I ran the center bolt of the puller thru the bearing hole, with the clamps either side of it to the sprocket O.D. I wouldn't recommend using a pry bar against the motor casing, even briefly.
Here's the new 10T front sprocket, retaining dome washer, and M10 shaft screw:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/10T%20Sprocket%20small.jpg)
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/MX%2010T%20Sprocket%20Diagram%20PB_2.png)
The front sprocket machining requirements are also mentioned in this thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4559.0) (10T & 11T are the same). The end of my ¼ " motor-shaft key end had been peened over the shaft end, so I smoothed it down with the Dremel so the new sprocket could slide on easily. I tapped the new sprocket on using a 30mm socket thru the frame bearing hole (my bearings were out for replacement at the time; if they're in, an M20 bolt thru the bearing center with a flat plate over the sprocket end should work).
The OEM sprocket retaining washer is too large to use with a 10T sprocket (it might be OK with an 11T, I don't know). It can be turned down on a lathe, or these washers (http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-PACK-M8-x-34mm-SILVER-Aluminum-Countersunk-Kart-Seat-Mounting-Washers-NEW-/282313744152?hash=item41bb35df18:g:JdYAAOSwADNXPRoE&vxp=mtr) can be used (the M8 hole & countersink will have to be enlarged for the M10 shaft screw head, but the O.D. and strength are fine). I used a thin steel washer under the aluminum one to give a hard stop for the washer & bolt against the motor shaft, rather than just letting the aluminum bow inwards into the air gap (torqued to 35 ft/lb). Clearance from the motor shaft screw head to the 'stub axle' swingarm pivot was @ 1mm / .040". Rear sprocket screws (M8x25 black-stainless flatheads) were installed w/Belleville-type lockwashers, flange nuts, & blue Loc-Tite, then torqued to 20 ft/lbs; if these loosen up, they can oval the hub holes & gouge the hell out of the swingarm.
The chain was replaced with the same excellent D.I.D. 520NZ non O-ring racing chain as before. The new chain/sprocket setup sounds completely different, though. Before it was a cyclic zipper-type noise, but now it's a strange chordal drone; it reminds me of the intro to the 'Ancient Aliens' TV show, during the episode-title screen. I think most of it may be chain/knobby-tire noise interaction. It isn't super loud, just weird.
Current Zero motorcycles are clearly designed mainly for belt drive, which has little in common with a chainsaw. :D In addition to wasting the Zero guide, the chain began taking bites out of the LH rear motor mount and chipping powder coat off the swingarm after it got worn a bit. I made up a steel motor-mount protector (seen in the next pic, covered w/JB Weld) which halted the damage and worked OK, but then I decided it would be better to keep the chain away from that area altogether rather than let the chain and protector duel to the death.
Here's what I call the 'mini chain guide', which mounts atop the LH swingarm using another M5 Riv-Nut type threaded insert (the notch cut in the top edge is only needed if the swingarm is lowered as in this thread (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6721.msg53963#msg53963)):
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/Mini%20Chain%20Guide%20-%20Motor%20Mount%20Protector.jpg)
Here's the diagram:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/Mini%20Chain%20Guide%20Diagram%20rev.%202%20rub.png)
This does an excellent job keeping the top chain run on the straight & narrow, and is very easy on the chain. If the end 'rub' is removed, this guide can also be used to hold the front / top end of a belt guard plate between the tire and belt run (the bottom of the plate could be bolted to the chain-guide mount, and channels could be mounted top & bottom to partially shield the belt runs).
It's also very important to use the swingarm crosstube protector sleeve included in the chain kit, but unfortunately this did not fit well or clamp tightly. I had to cut off the screw flanges & secure it to the crosstube using double-stick tape and two giant tie-wraps, which works great and hasn't budged at all.
Ray
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Thanks for the informative post, I'm halfway through the chain conversion on my '16 FXS (going to hit a true supermoto track with dirt) and you've got some great tips here plus it's nice to have a chain guide plan posted. Sub'd for future use :)
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Cool! Supermoto tracks can also create big WOT tension spikes at dirt/pavement transitions, which you won't even think about when using a chain.
Once the motor shaft is bare & ready for the new sprocket, it should be pretty much all downhill from there.
Ray
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Tried the sprockets out again this week - twice on power-line trails (15-50+ mph), and again this morning on a medium-speed track (10-40 mph). Today was the first time it felt exactly like I expected it to, given the calculated rear-sprocket torque numbers below:
My bike: 455 ft/lbs
'16 SR: 460
'16 FX: 370
The track ride was amazing. The last time I rode there (mentioned in my initial post), the bike was in Eco mode the whole time by mistake. In Sport mode this time, and given sufficient traction - I'm still playing with tire pressure - the front end was popping up 1-2' on every throttle twist below 30 mph & above 75% SOC. I thought earlier that the bike basically runs similar to before but at lower SOC levels, but today I noticed the bike has an additional peak spurt of acceleration immediately following each throttle twist which it didn't have before, making it feel 'snappier' as well as faster. Not surprisingly, wheelspin's a bigger issue now.
The power-line trail rides were basically faster and longer-lasting than before, with the acceleration spurts felt less often at the higher speeds & motor rpm's. This is a 2.8-battery thing; between the safety-first! Zero throttle curves, current limiting, and field weakening, the 2.8 only makes full torque from maybe 500 to 2K rpm. I'm working up simplified torque/hp curves for 1- and 2-brick FX's that combine Zero & Motenergy specs with what I feel when riding the bike, hopefully they'll give at least some idea what it's like.
IMO those hoping for an 'FXR' at some point and serious about acceleration should at least consider this setup. Sure, there'll be chain noise/maintenance and top speed & range will be lower, but so will the weight - and price. :)
Ray
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My front sprocket is toast after 2000 off road miles on my '16 FX, no surprise. I'm thinking about going to the Martin 11T for more torque, and I like the idea of a 530 chain, it should last longer with the wider teeth, right? Anyway I wonder if anyone is running a 530 and whether the chain guide can be modified to handle the width?
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I briefly considered running a 530 chain for the same reason as you, but decided against it. The 530 is heavier & has more drag, needs a custom rear sprocket, and will most likely require the OEM chain guide liner to be widened a bit as you mentioned (my mini guide will be fine). Also, in any 10/11/12T setup the front sprocket's going to wear out much faster than the rear, so IMO you're better off just replacing the front sprocket after 750 miles or so.
Ray
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My front sprocket is toast after 2000 off road miles on my '16 FX
Would you mind posting a pic when you take it off? I am curious about the wear pattern, especially if you use much regen? Does it show the classic dirt bike pattern of thinned teeth all tilting in the same direction, or something unique due to being loaded in both directions?
On a related note - Zero made it tough to monitor sprocket wear, since the swingarm blocks your view!
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30% regen, 30% brake regen:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/12T%20used%20small.jpg)
The 10T is almost impossible to see clearly from the side even with a bright light & small mirror, so nowadays I mainly inspect the teeth through the chain links.
Ray
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What is the overall width (bore length) on the stock Zero front sprocket? Is it 0.875", equal to the difference between 1.0" #50 standard sprocket and 530-520 chain width (0.375-0.25)?
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The OEM Zero 12T front sprocket is .840" wide. The Martin bores are a bit longer than they absolutely need to be which wouldn't be an issue in most applications, but on my bike the new sprocket clears the swingarm by .040" / 1mm, which seems real tight to me.
Ray
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Now that the new chain/sprockets are broken in, I realize this setup is much quieter than the 12T/65T chain-kit setup. From the new tonal characteristics of the overall noise level in motion, I think it may be due to three main factors:
1) Less front sprocket teeth engaging the chain links (the bulk of the chain noise comes from the front-sprocket area)
2) Higher frequency of front-tooth 'engagement events', turning what used to be a loud ZZZZZZZZZ sound into a quieter higher-pitched whine
3) Increased motor rpm, allowing the PWM drive-waveform sound to compete with chain noise
Now I can hear the motor all the time, like my belt bike (which is still quieter but not by nearly as much anymore, with a lot of it being reduced tire noise).
Ray
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Just how crazy/stupid would it be to run a 530 chain with a 530 front and a 520 rear? Sure the chain would wander side to side on the rear some, possibly letting the rollers go to a very slight angle, but probably it would settle on one side and mostly stay there. Probably a really bad idea but I'm kicking around all of the possibilities...
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Machining non-hardened sprocket teeth to .227" takes 15 minutes, tops. My guy charges me for everything, but he threw in doing two of them for free. Hardened sprockets are a different story; machine shops without precision grinders may not want to do them at all.
Ray
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Not many machine shops where I live. Would Sprocket Specialists do the width reduction on a Martin? I guess I'll ask them. I got a custom rear from them recently. The stock rear is light but that means it bends when you drop it on the rocks. Voice of experience.
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Sprocket Specialists could do it, but they suggest using a local shop, so that's the plan for now. That sprocket is available hardened or not, I bought hardened, hope that isn't too difficult to machine. I'm going with 11 teeth, might try 10 someday.
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Not to muddy the waters here, but if you've bent a sprocket maybe 530 is a better choice for you. I've had very good luck with Sprocket Specialists. I wouldn't bother with their Titan Tough hard-anodizing, as with a sprocket this size everything else will wear out first. My 71T still has @ 70% wear left, an expensive paperweight.
Thanks for the info about the hardened teeth - wish I'd known about it before I bought mine, but a) coming from an MC background I took it for granted that small-sprocket teeth were hardened, and b) owning a Zero, I'm just so frickin delighted when I find anything that's even remotely close to what I need, I've learned not to ask questions. :) I may have to revise my 750 mi. change-out interval. I'll be using 50BS10HT-1 sprockets from now on, and I think I'll start looking around at Tsubaki and other sprockets too. Hardened stuff needs to be ground rather than cut - my machinist has a special setup for doing it.
Ray
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I found this informative http://www.martinsprocket.com/docs/default-source/catalog-engineering/sprocket-engineering-data.pdf?sfvrsn=6 (http://www.martinsprocket.com/docs/default-source/catalog-engineering/sprocket-engineering-data.pdf?sfvrsn=6) Page E-167 shows that only part of the teeth are hardened, and then not too hard to avoid brittleness. Everything is a compromise. I'm going with 520 to wear out my custom rear for now, and save the trouble of chain guide mods. I'm running a narrow x-ring chain. Who knows how the wear and performance of a 530 non o-ring would compare. I ride in very nasty conditions, appalachian mountains, former mining areas, mud, rocks, water, crashes, big fun! And because it seems to work well, I'm using WD-40 Silicone lube instead of oil based chain lube. It doesn't form an abrasive paste when mixed with mud and the wear seems reasonable. https://www.wd40specialist.com/products/silicone-lubricant/ (https://www.wd40specialist.com/products/silicone-lubricant/)
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Here's what's left of my stock sprocket, next to a new 11T Martin. I use a lot of regen, set to 100% brake. There is some hook and more wear on the drive side, but a lot of lost metal everywhere, and I can see the regen wear marks.
I took a hard look at going to a 530 chain. Got a quote from Sprocket Specialists for a custom rear and went over the chain dimensions here http://www.didchain.com/PDF/DID_2012usa_final.pdf (http://www.didchain.com/PDF/DID_2012usa_final.pdf) It almost works. A standard 530 chain is only slightly wider than the narrow x-ring 520, would fit the stock guide, barely. Those chains would wear out quickly off road, but they are not expensive and are easy to replace. The 530 sprockets would last longer. Replacing the front is a pretty big deal so I wanted a longer lasting option. The deal breaker is clearance from the motor shaft to the swingarm. Because the 530 standard BS sprockets are 1.0 inches wide, there just isn't room for the washer and screw head. It might be possible to shift the motor toward the brake pedal, add spacers and modify the brake side mount adjusters. But for now I'll go ahead and machine the Martin down to 520 width.
And I am replacing the swing arm bearings, they are full of mud, no surprise.
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Here's some dimension information for those who run chains and might change sprockets. The stock Zero sprocket does not have quite enough width in the hub slot to hold even the DID 520 VT2 Narrow Enduro Racing X-Ring Chain. It seemed ok while running but the wear shows the chain was cutting into the hub by about 0.03". The stock washer is slightly too large for the 11T Martin, should be 1.53 but is 1.60. The Martin will be wider (longer bore length) than the stock sprocket even after machining to 520 width. The 530 520 difference, 0.343 - 0.227, removes 0.116, leaving 0.884, about 0.04 wider than the stock bore length. The stock sprocket mounted position has a gap at the shaft end under the washer. The motor shaft diameter steps up 0.875 from the end and there is a 0.060 plastic washer between the step and hub. That leaves 0.025 or so gap under the aluminum washer. I had some rust on the shaft end. The modified Martin will increase that gap to about 0.06. The larger set screws in the Martin don't leave enough metal to allow reducing the width on the motor side. According to this method my chain was worn by 60% of allowable, I'm going to replace it https://www.facebook.com/notes/klim/busting-motorcycle-chain-myths/416157056989/ (https://www.facebook.com/notes/klim/busting-motorcycle-chain-myths/416157056989/) Interesting data there about O-ring friction.
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Here's my 50BS11HT 1 Martin machined to 520 width. The groove is wide enough to clear the narrow X-ring chain. Carbide tool was able to do the cutting. Getting ready for 9% more torque! If you don't need gold the KTM chain is much cheaper, I found out too late. Same DID VT2 with 118 links, Zero needs 108. http://www.ktmworld.com/product/78010167118.html (http://www.ktmworld.com/product/78010167118.html)
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;D Test ride with the new 11/65 setup was all I hoped it would be. Front wheel lifts easily with both packs in place, maybe even better than it was with front pack removed. I realized and noticed that the regen braking is also stronger, but that's ok with me, now at 109% brake regen. I guess the speedometer is off too, not that I use it off road.
So maybe the increased motor speed helps with low speed range? I don't know what rpm the efficiency curve peaks, but I bet it is higher than my typical trail pace. I do hear the difference in sound, it seems quieter, of course it is new, but I hear the wind in the spokes more.
More wheelspin? Hard to tell, it's all in the wrist and I've learned to go very easy on the twist compared to my old two stroke. It will now rev limit at a lower wheel speed but that's still way too high for me. I wish I could set custom max speed to maybe 40 mph. Twisting the throttle with no sprocket mounted on the motor showed over 90 mph in less than one second. And I saw the rev limit differently, only really working on the second twist.
I might put the chain guard back on. It would need to be cut the clear the mud flap and I think I will raise it maybe 1/2" off the swing arm to clear the knobs better. But it would keep some of the mud off the chain, the tire throws dirt at the open chain which then carries it right to the front sprocket.
The guy who did my machining said he thought the teeth did not lose any hardness in cutting. Fewer teeth mean it will wear faster but maybe it is harder than the stock sprocket. I bought and modified two 11T's so it will be much easier to do the next replacement.
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Thanks for the report (and for the pics Ray and Keith). Sounds like a great setup.
If you ever have another 11T made, I bet you could throw a few extras on ebay and sell them to other off-roaders who aren't ambitious enough to make our own.
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Test ride with the new 11/65 setup was all I hoped it would be.
Cool! I'm still happy with the 10T as well.
So maybe the increased motor speed helps with low speed range?
I'm getting an additional lap in at all my riding areas, so something good is happening. I think I use a little less throttle now, though I'm sure that'll change. :)
I do hear the difference in sound, it seems quieter, of course it is new, but I hear the wind in the spokes more.
My Martin sprocket is much quieter than the Zero one was. After you mentioned chain width & hub-slot wear, I checked my worn-out 12T and it had lots of wear in the slot. Now I can feather the throttle while coasting and only hear tire noise.
the tire throws dirt at the open chain which then carries it right to the front sprocket.
On my bike, I've found the top chain run tends to fling carried dirt forward onto the rubber wiring-protector cover, while the bottom run traps & carries it right into the rear sprocket. That said, it certainly can't hurt to keep dirt off the chain, top and bottom.
Ray
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Do you guys succeed in removing the front stock sprocket (for belt use) without damaging it?
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A puller like this is perfect. It fits around the frame and through the swing arm bearing. You might rent one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proto-J4212SJB-6-Ton-2-Way-Durable-Proto-Ease-Straight-Narrow-Jaw-Puller-Set/172599020361 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Proto-J4212SJB-6-Ton-2-Way-Durable-Proto-Ease-Straight-Narrow-Jaw-Puller-Set/172599020361)
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Do you guys succeed in removing the front stock sprocket (for belt use) without damaging it?
My OEM belt pulley had been removed before I bought the bike, but I talked to the guy who did it (and I still have the pulley, which is undamaged). He said LocTite had been used on everything (bore, shaft, key, setscrews), and it had to be heated really hot with a torch before it would come off.
This is nearly identical to the New Britain P-150-D puller I've used for years, with 100% success so far - apparently it's now considered a 'vintage' tool: :)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTA2MVgxNTM1/z/~IEAAOSwX9FZJD1m/$_58.JPG)
Ray
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Here's how I modified and mounted the guard to keep some of the dirt off of my chain and new sprocket. Added 1/2" spacers to the swingarm and cut away a lot of plastic to clear the tire and mudflap. The 120/90x18 Motoz Tractionator Enduro I/T barely fits. I am going to need to retrain my wrist, the front wheel lift has surprised me several times!
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Still getting mud going past the guard so I flipped over the piece I cut and pop riveted it back on to fill in the gap. That works really well, even has a flap down between the tire and chain. I gave it a test ride on my muddy trails. 8)
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Went through the entire thread again. So much valuable information.
I think I'll go with the recommended 11/65 sprockets to gain some torque.
To save manufacturing hassle, any links to pre-made sprockets?
Thanks.
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Oded,
I was unable to locate any motorcycle-spec (428, 520, etc.) 1" finished-bore sprockets online, but it's possible I could've missed something. All the ones I found used industrial chain sizes (40, 50, 60, etc.).
Ray
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I beat the bushes too, and found no ready made sprockets to fit 520 chain. Almost all motorcycles use a spline rather than a straight bore and keyed shaft (2017 Zero's do too). 530 chain will work with the ansi #50 sprockets that are standard, but requires a custom rear, my quote for that was $126, 530 will not fit the chain guide very well and you need to move the motor by about 0.125 to clear the swingarm. All possible but machining a sprocket seems to be the best solution.
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Thanks Ray & Keith!
So, I'll look into machining it.
What are the exact specs I need to provide the machinist with, to get a quote?
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Courtesy of the nightmare Photobucket has become:
(http://i399.photobucket.com/albums/pp74/rayivers/MX%2010T%20Sprocket%20Diagram%20PB_2.png)
Ray
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Wouldn't a 11T / 65T be more appropriate? How will the diagram change if I go with the 11T sprocket?
Any diagram of the rear sprocket?
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Here is a link to a drawing of the 11T I bought. Ray's drawing would apply to this as well, but this shows the width as 1.0. https://www.mcmaster.com/#2500t654/ (https://www.mcmaster.com/#2500t654/)
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Wouldn't a 11T / 65T be more appropriate?
An 11T sprocket will last longer, produce less RW torque, and reduce sprocket/swingarm clearance to @ .028" / .7mm. 10T ? 11T ? - it's up to you.
How will the diagram change if I go with the 11T sprocket?
Post machining, my 11T sprocket's overall width is .884" from an initial width of 1.00" (as Keith noted), both .012" wider than my 10T diagram dimensions.
Any diagram of the rear sprocket?
The OEM Zero 65T sprocket? Not that I know of. This one 's mounting specs are correct:
(http://www.jtsprockets.com/fileadmin/code/images/large/jtr895.jpg)
Ray
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This is the Sprocket Specialists spec for a custom rear
65T, 530 chain, 981 pattern (for the '03 - '07 KTM 85 SX), 132mm diameter M8 4-bolt circle, 110mm center hole dia., taper head bolt, countersunk bolt holes @90 degrees taper head, aircraft grade 7075 T6 aluminum standard brushed finish.
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Thanks for your help.
Did some info gathering and it seems that it won't be easy locating the specially made sprockets. Too bad Zero are using their own specific dimensions for many of the bike's parts...
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This is the Sprocket Specialists spec for a custom rear
65T, 530 chain, 981 pattern (for the '03 - '07 KTM 85 SX), 132mm diameter M8 4-bolt circle, 110mm center hole dia., taper head bolt, countersunk bolt holes @90 degrees taper head, aircraft grade 7075 T6 aluminum standard brushed finish.
This is great info. You should put it in the zero manual (http://zeromanual.com)
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Ordered the front Martin 11T sprocket (ebay) & rear 65T sprocket from sprocketspecialists.com.
Now I need to sort out a chain guide and a chain (108 links??)
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Ordered the front Martin 11T sprocket (ebay) & rear 65T sprocket from sprocketspecialists.com.
Now I need to sort out a chain guide and a chain (108 links??)
520 or 530 chain? See my reply 19 for a good deal on a KTM 520 narrow O-ring. You'll need to cut to length, just grind off the pins on the link you don't need, pry off the side plate. If 530 a standard chain will probably fit, a 530 O-ring will be much too wide for the stock guide.
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Ordered the front Martin 11T sprocket (ebay) & rear 65T sprocket from sprocketspecialists.com.
Now I need to sort out a chain guide and a chain (108 links??)
520 or 530 chain? See my reply 19 for a good deal on a KTM 520 narrow O-ring. You'll need to cut to length, just grind off the pins on the link you don't need, pry off the side plate. If 530 a standard chain will probably fit, a 530 O-ring will be much too wide for the stock guide.
Plan to use a 520 chain (thinking about it, a 428 chain would probably be enough, and easier to mount... Maybe next time).
I'll purchase the chain locally. More worried about the chain guide which I do not have. Perhaps a universal chain guide can be made to fit?
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428 is a different pitch, that won't work with the Martin sprockets. I don't know any universal guide that would fit. The 65T is larger than most so it needs a longer guide.
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I don't know any universal guide that would fit.
+1. If an adaptor was made up that basically moved the stock swingarm guide mounts down about 30mm or so with different bolt spacing and oversized holes for adjustment, a whole lot of OEM & aftermarket guides would work. I just went with the Zero parts - I have the p/n's if you need them.
Ray
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That would be a problem.
Please let me know the PN of the chain guide, although I am pretty sure, it can only be bought as part of the chain kit.
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The chain guide cage (outer frame) p/n is 20-05401, and the chain guide rubber (inner liner) is 20-05400. Both are 2013 MX parts, available separately from the chain kit.
Ray
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Thanks Ray. Will start looking.
BTW, I installed a rear trial-enduro tire (Pirelli MT43), which is much larger in diameter than the stock IRC tire.
Tried Spacers to lift the rear mud guard, but it was not enough. The best solution was to mount the entire mud guard few centimeters to the front. Drilled new openings for the bolts. Works great.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170602/a5a2a4524434207a3d3570b0008f9fbb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170602/bd0f3e75b261704942485d5c407b5d5d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170602/219c6a94f4e1825631cd71e16279b71e.jpg)
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I have the rear 65T sprocket on its way from Sprocket Specialists, and few Martin 11T front sprockets on their way as well.
bought the chain guide, so only missing the chain.
looking for the less noisy chain possible. do not ride a lot, so longetivity & strength come 2nd.
what would you suggest I choose - standard, O-ring, X-ring...? all 520 of course.
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Standard is probably fine. I was surprised that the X-ring sound was almost the same as standard, but the rollers are the main source, not the pins. O-ring is wider and will rub in the guides more. Alignment is very important, the large rear sprocket magnifies any error and the sound is greatly affected. Use a chain alignment tool, don't trust the swingarm marks. Lubrication also makes a big difference.
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Thanks. Is that 108 links?
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Standard is probably fine. I was surprised that the X-ring sound was almost the same as standard, but the rollers are the main source, not the pins. O-ring is wider and will rub in the guides more. Alignment is very important, the large rear sprocket magnifies any error and the sound is greatly affected. Use a chain alignment tool, don't trust the swingarm marks. Lubrication also makes a big difference.
I suppose the alignment for chain operation may be affected by the tightening of the axle nut as well - for belt alignment the trick is to align it to the inside of the rear sprocket with a snug axle nut, and the tightening of the axle nut to spec (75lb-ft for 2016 DSR here) brings alignment over to the center of the rear sprocket.
Any comment from running a chain, how does torque on the axle nut play into alignment?
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Thanks. Is that 108 links?
I'd suggest 110 links, Oded. I used 108L with my 10T & it was slightly too short (the chain fits, but the tire rubs against the shock protector). If 110L is too long you can always remove links.
Ray
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Thanks. Probably a standard or x-ring 520 with 110 links is what I am after.
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Anyone know the dimensions for the 2017's?
what size splined shaft is used, what are the Various dimensions/clearances to use for the larger chain size?
Perhaps a larger size that fits the same shaft that I could machine down?
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Anyone know the dimensions for the 2017's?
what size splined shaft is used, what are the Various dimensions/clearances to use for the larger chain size?
Perhaps a larger size that fits the same shaft that I could machine down?
What kind of riding you do? Perhaps not necessary with the wider belt?
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it's not That wide, anyway that wasn't the question.
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Any comment from running a chain, how does torque on the axle nut play into alignment?
On my chain bike, full-spec axle nut torque doesn't have any real effect on wheel alignment at all. If it did, my alignment jig (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6193.msg47410#msg47410) would throw a hissy fit, and that has yet to happen.
Ray
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for those finding the information in this post helpful, here are the exact dimensions of the front 520B11T Martin sprocket (in mm)
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Thanks for all the great info guys. I've been following along, preparing for the eventual replacement of my stock chain kit.
One thing I don't quite understand: If going with an 11/65, why not just order the whole chain kit and then just swap the front sprocket with the custom 11T noted above? Seems like a lot of added effort to get a custom 65 sprocket and also buy the chain and guides separately? I feel like I must be missing a detail somewhere?
In my case, if I already have the chain kit, can I just buy a stock chain and rear sprocket, and couple them with the custom 11T front?
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Zero raised the price on the chain kit, now $325 and apparently does not include the lower chain guide. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=192 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=192) You can get a chain from KTM and a custom rear from Sprocket Specialists for way less than $200 total and easy to order, specs in this thread. Getting the custom front takes some doing. Also be aware that you'll need a dealer to recalibrate your odometer and speedometer if that matters to you.
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Zero raised the price on the chain kit, now $325 and apparently does not include the lower chain guide. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=192 (http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=192) You can get a chain from KTM and a custom rear from Sprocket Specialists for way less than $200 total and easy to order, specs in this thread. Getting the custom front takes some doing. Also be aware that you'll need a dealer to recalibrate your odometer and speedometer if that matters to you.
Exactly my reasons for not purchasing the Zero Kit.
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Zero raised the price on the chain kit, now $325 and apparently does not include the lower chain guide. You can get a chain from KTM and a custom rear from Sprocket Specialists for way less than $200 total and easy to order.
That explains it then - I had been thinking the kit was closer to $200 and included everything needed. Thanks Keith, Oded, and Ray for leading the charge on this...
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Just for general info - the latest price on the 65T Zero rear sprocket (p/n 30-05090) was $154.65, the chain guide aluminum cage (20-05401) was $14.95, the rubber guide inner liner (20-05400) was $16.82, and the swingarm crosstube protector (30-04452) was $3.77, giving a total of $190.19 for a partial chain kit minus front sprocket & chain (all prices subject to change, of course). The 18-page chain kit installation instructions (88-06525) are free, I believe.
Ray
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If I recall, someone from Zero explained that the price increase was because of a better chain
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By the way, what is a swingarm crosstube protector?
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Oded - the crosstube protector is a wide loop w/screw flanges, made from the same material as the chain guide liner. It fits around the LH side of the SA crosstube & keeps the chain from chewing it up. It's especially critical when using smaller sprockets, either front or rear.
Ray
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I believe the better chain is now a DID 520 X-ring. My chain kit from April 2016 had a DID 520 NZ non-o-ring chain. I replaced it immediately because my off road use requires o-ring for sure. Anyway, you can get a DID X-ring for a great price from any KTM parts dealer, stock part for KTM 500EXC. It isn't gold so if you want fancy looks it will cost you $20 more for the DID VT2 aftermarket chain. I don't know if the new Zero chain is gold or not, doesn't look like it in the picture.
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Oded - the crosstube protector is a wide loop w/screw flanges, made from the same material as the chain guide liner. It fits around the LH side of the SA crosstube & keeps the chain from chewing it up. It's especially critical when using smaller sprockets, either front or rear.
Ray
oh no... I paid 120 us$ for the stupid Zero chain guard (official price from my Zero local dealer). I thought I was finished with putting together the chain kit.
how necessary is the crosstube protector?
is there an official p/n# for this part?
Keith, I purchased the standard DID 520 chain because it suppose to be the lightest and narrowest (perhaps even less draggy). hope it will survive my off road riding.
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how necessary is the crosstube protector? is there an official p/n# for this part?
The swingarm crosstube protector is Zero p/n 30-04452 - Zero calls it an 'MX CHAIN BUFFER' - but there are things you could do yourself that might work even better, like wrapping the crosstube in the chain area with multiple layers of thick rubber / HDPE / nylon tape, or heating a long 30mm wide x 2mm-thick strip of nylon or HDPE & then bending it around the crosstube & running a bolt/washers thru holes in the ends, or installing several wide heavy-duty tie-wraps around the crosstube side-by-side, etc. My Zero protector fit very poorly, so I had to modify it (I cut off the screw flanges & used double-stick tape to hold it in position, then used HD tie-wraps around it to secure it).
When I first got my 'MX' bike it had the chain kit installed without the protector/buffer, and I was told it had been ridden that way once for about 4-5 hours; the chain had completely scraped through the SA powder coat top & bottom, then it dug into the aluminum maybe .5mm or so. :(
Ray
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Thanks Ray. Will do one of your suggested methods. Creative as always.
Waiting for the belt to snap, in order to replace it with the chain. That's a stubborn belt 😀
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10T sprocket wear, 642 mi. (based on the OEM 12T lasting 3K+ miles, I may get 2K out of this one - we'll see)
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My mechanic installed the chain kit (11/65). No problems during the installation.
I knew it before so I can't complain, but the bike is so noisy.
ÓI need to let it break in, and perhaps I'll get used to it, but The cool stealthy ride of the bike is partially gone.
I am using a standard 520 (109 links) DID chain. Perhaps I'll try an o-ring chain if it's less noisy.
As far as torque, can't say I notice a big difference (should be about 10% increase from stock belt setup), perhaps a little increase in torque. Will test ride it off road this weekend.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170802/ed3fe68db6308da476231a18a36db3c5.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170802/2488658f3bd1dc96ce79d3cf1cc9c09d.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170802/45be903010b6f7656956e5c06a113bb4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170802/13e15706120fe0580cbde4c8a6d4ef45.jpg)
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Mine has got quieter with more riding. I ride with an FX who has a belt still and it's not that much noisier, if at all. But I know not everyone who rides a Zero comes from a noisey ass gas bike so maybe I'm more desensitized than most?
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Standard and O-ring chains are about equally noisy, I've found. I never rode my FX with a belt so I didn't get spoiled.
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Already noticed, I am starting to get used to it. Tensioning the chain helped a bit.
As mentioned, Rode the belt equipped FX for a long time, so the change is more pronounce.
For now I'll stay with the standard DID chain.
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Quick report related to chain life...
I have about 1,500 miles on the stock chain kit, with 90% road use, 10% muddy trails. The sprockets both look pretty good. I tried to tension the chain tonight, but found out that I'm out of space - the axle can't move any further back in the swingarm. Time to either shorten the chain (plan A) or swap everything out (plan B, hopefully not until next year).
When confirming that the wheel can move forward enough to shorten the chain I noticed that the tire had been rubbing on the crosstube protector where there is a flange for the tightening bolts. That protector definitely fits poorly, as Ray mentioned. It wants to slide toward the center of the bike, which puts it too close to the tire. The poor fit also prevented the chain from riding on the protector's vertical rib as intended, which allowed the chain to wear through the thinner material next to the rib and then start eating into the cross tube. Glad the cross tube protector is cheap, but it definitely needs to be mounted differently to be effective.
As the length of this thread indicates, there sure is a lot to dislike about this chain setup (odd motor shaft, odd sprocket sizes, poor fitting guides, have to remove swingarm to change sprockets, high cost, etc.)
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That's interesting. I followed Ray's suggestion and just used few zip ties next to each other, instead of the crosstube protector.
By the way, my chain is adjusted to 109 links. It provide forward and backward rear wheel movement for tension alignment. Do you remember the number of links?
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but found out that I'm out of space - the axle can't move any further back in the swingarm. Time to either shorten the chain (plan A)
Um, Bing? I think it's time to shorten the chain.
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the tire had been rubbing on the crosstube protector... fits poorly... poor fit also prevented the chain from riding on the protector's vertical rib as intended... needs to be mounted differently
+4 :) I'd forgotten about the tire hitting the mounting flanges, which was the main reason I ended up chopping them off. I also failed to mention I removed the rear locating tab that fits into the space between the top & bottom LH arms behind the crosstube, leaving only the front tab that fits into the triangular forward space (which prevents protector rotation & orients the rib correctly to the chain run).
If the screw flanges and rear side tab were removed and the protector supplied with several wide tie-wraps, it would go right on and fit fine, presenting a non-snagging profile to the chain, tire, and anything tall you might ride over.
Ray
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Shortened the chain from 109 to 107 today - no problems there.
As for the cross-tube protector, as usual, Ray is two steps ahead! I also cut the rear flange off (before reading his post), and used zip ties to secure it better. I also cut a 45 degree chamfer around the entire circumference of the protector (with a knife), allowing it to sit more flush against the swingarm. It looks as if the designer forgot about the generous weld where the crosstube meets the swingarm, which was pushing the protector out almost 1/4 inch. The chamfer helped line up the vertical ribs with the center of the chain.
On the bright side, the chain noise has subsided quite a bit now that everything fits better.
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I replaced the 10T front sprocket last week, with the hardened version (Martin 50BS10HT). It had less than 1,500 miles on it, and 5 teeth left. :( The new one was a nightmare to machine; I was told six lathe points were destroyed in the process.
Removal/installation was much the same as before. 30 seconds of torch heat and the M10 shaft screw came right out. The setscrews were not very tight at all (these use .125" hey keys, do NOT use 3mm !). The sprocket came right off with the bearing puller. The new sprocket was slightly longer than the old one, so I added a .020"/.5mm shim washer to the existing .044"/1.1mm washer under the retaining dome washer. I used blue LocTite on the shaft screw & 40 ft/lb of torque, and I would've used 7 ft/lbs on the setscrews if I had a .125" key socket (I just LocTited it & tightened as much as I could with a key, probably 5 ft/lbs or less). There was .043"/1.1mm clearance from the shaft screw head to the swingarm pivot.
I hope to get at least 2K miles out of this hardened sprocket, we'll see.
On a side note... the eBay stainless swingarm bearings I put in last time (not the ceramic/stainless precision hybrids) were completely shot again - I couldn't get the RH one to turn at all without the swingarm attached. I'll post on this in my bearing thread at some point. This is a truly serious design problem that Zero needs to rectify before hard-locked bearings start reaming out frame pockets. I looked into roller bearings like the NJ204, but they're unsealed and would be a real challenge to make work in this application (I found 28x40x5mm outer seals on eBay that are currently en route and should work, but inner seals remain a problem). There's a reason why the industry standard is multiple swingarm-mounted sealed needle bearings - they survive for extended periods, and won't damage the frame when they fail - but custom double-sealed NJ204's would be a huge improvement in the meantime.
Ray