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Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: grmarks on May 11, 2017, 05:01:08 AM
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My car has blown a head gasket, I was using my Zero to run a round and get parts, but on the weekend the DC - DC converter failed again (it failed several months ago). That in itself is not the end of the world, but I just found out that my local dealer has gone bust. The nearest dealer is now 1,000 km away.
I am in Melbourne Australia, the next nearest dealer is in Sydney Australia.
To freight my bike to the Sydney dealer for a warranty claim will cost over $600 (AUD) each way ($1200). The DC - DC converter is priced at $650 (AUD)
I contacted the Sydney dealer but their policy (and that of the importer) is the bike has to come into the shop. I contacted Zero USA, they directed me to Zero Netherlands for the Australian region.
I am currently waiting for their office to open. I will keep you posted on any outcome.
Although the Sydney (Hornsby) dealer has been helpful, he also spun some shit, he was saying that in Australia they only offer a 1 year warranty, but the US office confirmed its a 2 year warranty anywhere in the world. I suggested two compromises, 1) I will pay for the part, fit it and send the old part back for testing, if faulty then they will refund me the purchase price. 2) split the cost of the part 50/50.
But both the importer and dealer won't compromise.
If I had purchased the bike from Sydney then I would have known the costs involved to support the bike up front (wouldn't have bought it in that case), but I bought it locally so there was no significant cost involved to support it.
The bike is out of warranty in 2 months.
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The converter seems to be an unmodified commodity relative to the other parts on the bike, just a switching power supply with IP rating and a specific fitment and output. It'd be nice if something so simple could just be mailed out for a swap without hassling the owner.
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#DC.2FDC_12V_converter (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#DC.2FDC_12V_converter)
Your compromise suggestions sound reasonable to me, anyway. Good luck.
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Spoke to Zero Netherlands and they are going to see if something can be worked out about sending the part.
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Good luck! I am visiting Melbourne this week from the East Coast of the US. What a great city. I can't believe the number of bikes parked around the Melbourne Quarter!
Cheers.
Steve
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It seems odd that you've had two converters fail. AFAIK, that's a fairly infrequent failure at all, let alone twice in quick succession. I wonder if you've got some other problem, perhaps a short in the wiring somewhere that's loading down that converter or something?
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It seems odd that you've had two converters fail. AFAIK, that's a fairly infrequent failure at all, let alone twice in quick succession. I wonder if you've got some other problem, perhaps a short in the wiring somewhere that's loading down that converter or something?
Yep had that thought to, but I could just be unlucky as well. The Dealer replaced the first under warranty and didn't find any other issues from diagnostics. If it is an intermittent short then who can find it? If it doesn't do it when your testing its really hard to find.
I have a step I navigate down to get out of the back yard (have to turn at the same time) and I did notice a crackling noise as I went down the step (with the brake applied) and wondered what it was. Sounded like I ran over some plastic (cracking under the wheel) then about 10 minutes latter I noticed the blinkers not working, realised none of the lights and re-gen were not working also.
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I suppose I'd start with a hardcore visual inspection. Wires rubbing together would show evidence of chafing through the insulation; a bulb mount or something that was loose could short things out and should be obvious if you lay hands and eyes on it.
But first, let me ask a couple of questions. Do you back out of the back yard or go front first? Do you key it on before or after? If you don't have it keyed on when you do it, maybe that's a clue...there aren't too many things live with the key off that could possibly cause a short. The reason I ask about frontward/backward exits is that the fork might be turned over one direction or the other, and may be pinching some wires.
Of course, all this is based on a possible short blowing the DC-DC converter. Hopefully it's protected better than that, but stranger things have happened.
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I suppose I'd start with a hardcore visual inspection. Wires rubbing together would show evidence of chafing through the insulation; a bulb mount or something that was loose could short things out and should be obvious if you lay hands and eyes on it.
But first, let me ask a couple of questions. Do you back out of the back yard or go front first? Do you key it on before or after? If you don't have it keyed on when you do it, maybe that's a clue...there aren't too many things live with the key off that could possibly cause a short. The reason I ask about frontward/backward exits is that the fork might be turned over one direction or the other, and may be pinching some wires.
Of course, all this is based on a possible short blowing the DC-DC converter. Hopefully it's protected better than that, but stranger things have happened.
I would expected a blown fuse from a short, but all fuses are ok. I turn the bike on and ride it forwards under power except going over step (which has a ramp) where I back off the power and roll over it.
I bought a 12V 6.5ah lithium battery (www.peterstevens.com.au/dynalife-lithium-ion-battery-dlfp-5l-bs.html (http://www.peterstevens.com.au/dynalife-lithium-ion-battery-dlfp-5l-bs.html)) for my dirt bike a few months ago and it is light as a feather. That, with a smaller dc-dc converter (megamod junior www.vicorpower.com/dc-dc-power-systems/megamod (http://www.vicorpower.com/dc-dc-power-systems/megamod)) to charge it, would make a much simpler, and more robust, system. Alarms etc could easily be mounted to the bike then. The price of the battery is about 1/6 th that of the dc-dc converter. The battery would also protect the dc-dc converter.
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I have a step I navigate down to get out of the back yard (have to turn at the same time) and I did notice a crackling noise as I went down the step (with the brake applied) and wondered what it was. Sounded like I ran over some plastic (cracking under the wheel) then about 10 minutes latter I noticed the blinkers not working, realised none of the lights and re-gen were not working also.
Wait, what? That is extremely far from normal. Which wheel would "under the wheel" apply to?
Think about where all the relays are on the bike. You have a set under the tank plastics for the turn signals, and there is the instrument cluster and some wiring connectors behind it. Then there are several major (IP-rated) components under the seat and a bunch of 12V wiring with crimp connections running between the seat and the front area. In the tail there are some wires to the brake light unit and signals.
Open your bike up and look for signs or smells of burning, melting, or the like in areas like these. Check whether there are loose connections by wiggling them gently; a loose connection can cause sparking that can fault a power supply.
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Wait, what? That is extremely far from normal. Which wheel would "under the wheel" apply to?
Think about where all the relays are on the bike. You have a set under the tank plastics for the turn signals, and there is the instrument cluster and some wiring connectors behind it. Then there are several major (IP-rated) components under the seat and a bunch of 12V wiring with crimp connections running between the seat and the front area. In the tail there are some wires to the brake light unit and signals.
Open your bike up and look for signs or smells of burning, melting, or the like in areas like these. Check whether there are loose connections by wiggling them gently; a loose connection can cause sparking that can fault a power supply.
As far as which wheel (noise from front or back) can't be sure. No obvious smells. If a loose connection can blow the dc-dc converter then that is a poor design.
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As far as which wheel (noise from front or back) can't be sure. No obvious smells.
Keep looking! That's the clearest indication that you have and someone should isolate the problem.
If a loose connection can blow the dc-dc converter then that is a poor design.
Even if you were the most credentialed electronics engineer or technician, you're speaking out of frustration, not knowledge. Engineering is a process of making tradeoffs and modeling operating conditions economically. There is something to be fixed here, but we don't know what it is yet.
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Interestingly someone just posted the same issue on the Zero facebook page.
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Even if you were the most credentialed electronics engineer or technician, you're speaking out of frustration, not knowledge. Engineering is a process of making tradeoffs and modeling operating conditions economically. There is something to be fixed here, but we don't know what it is yet.
Yes my DC-DC converter for starters (it is possible I got 2 bad ones).
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Quick update, Zero Netherlands - have heard nothing, contacted the US again and was told that the US has a person to deal with Australia (Netherlands was a mistake - support person is new, gave me wrong info) but that person is on holidays at the moment, so someone else is supposed to be handling it but have heard nothing yet.
Feels like I'm getting the run around!
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Quick update, Zero Netherlands - have heard nothing, contacted the US again and was told that the US has a person to deal with Australia (Netherlands was a mistake - support person is new, gave me wrong info) but that person is on holidays at the moment, so someone else is supposed to be handling it but have heard nothing yet.
Feels like I'm getting the run around!
Fwiw, I had problems that I thought were Dc to DC related but weren't. After months of intermittency and a trip to Procycles to replace the loom and instruments cluster (bit of chaffing) nothing changed. I then undid all the zip ties in my loom around the DC to DC, carefully rerouted them to avoid and stress and cleaned and re heeded the main plug. Touch wood no probs for 6 months. Before you ship it, reach down and jiggle the main plug into the converter - that was my road side fix every time. I also recently replaced the DC fuse -the small sealed one on the back of the battery - it failed inexplicably and after replacement has been fine so could be a faulty fuse. Lastly, I also added some rubber shrouds and carefully tidied up all my wiring under the tank to ensure that want the problem, added a new better flasher relay too.
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Latest update...I have got an email from the US from the guy assigned my case. He says he will skype with me to check some stuff out. Sounds like a good idea to me. Hopefully this week.
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Yesterday a new DC-DC converter arrived by courier (customer support does work) although it took a few weeks to happen.
Problem is I fitted the plug to the new converter before bolting it in. I got the same issue - no lights. When I turned the key on there was no noise (except the contactor connecting), there was no flash of lights or anything to suggest it worked for a second then blew up. When I put my multimeter probes on the 12V wires there is no voltage. There is 113V on the input pin and same on the "enable" pin when the key is turned on.
The box for my cable TV went crazy a few weeks back, support sent a "new" one out, I installed it, seemed ok. The next day it was in worse condition than my original one. Support then sent a technicion out (to check cables etc.) turns out the replacement box was in fact a reconditioned box and was faulty too. He installed a 3rd box and all is sweet now.
Could it possibly happen again (replacement is faulty)?
I noticed that one of the "fingers" on the bolt slot is bent and that the static bag was open at one end. Did the courier throw it around, and could that heavy shock make it fail?
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At that point you'd want to take the part you suspect is faulty and ship it to Zero for testing, that is my best guess of basic troubleshooting procedure. If it is faulty, then you know, or if not then you can narrow down the problem is something else.
To say it another way: Getting many "good" parts and changing them into a broken system is a very effective way to create more bad parts :)
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Today I connected a 12V battery to the output pins of the DC-DC converter plug (after asking Zero support if that was safe to do) and all the lights work fine.
With power coming in and nothing coming out, and the down stream 12V systems working just fine, doesn't leave to many options as to whats wrong!
I am just working with Zero support via email at the moment, testing things. With the time difference there is a 1 day turn around, I check my emails in the morning, perform any tests they ask and report my results then wait till the next morning.
Given the situation at the moment in Victoria, Australia, can't complain about that level of support.
But boy I hope we can get another dealer here soon so I can get the firmware upgrade and a service.
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To say it another way: Getting many "good" parts and changing them into a broken system is a very effective way to create more bad parts :)
You assume that the part was good and the system is broken.
If I put a 12V battery in place of the DC-DC converter everything works fine, where is the broken system? Power is coming into the DC-DC converter and nothing comes out - seems pretty clear to me whats wrong given that everything else test out OK.
If there is an intermittent fault, then these are almost impossible to find unless you test as the fault occurs, not even a dealer can find these until the fault becomes permanent unless luck is on your side.
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I'm in Perth and bought my SR from the Victoria dealer, so I was never going to get local support, but at least I could call them. Like you I hope they find another dealer (and one in WA!)
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And how is your car doing?
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And how is your car doing?
The car is back on the road - cylinder rebore, new pistons, rings, crank grind, new bearings, seals, got the crank balanced, block resurfaced and head resurfaced. The valves were not done but tested with no leaks - seems changing the cam shims due to a valve regrind on an old Rav4 is a problem. Still removing the head is a lot easier than removing the engine/gearbox as a unit.
It is still being run in but I notice the extra power at low RPM.
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This is one for the unofficial manual.
Today I ran a test to make sure the contact between the pins and plug was sufficient on the 12V pins. I made up 3 wires to plug into the Hi voltage plug socket and connectors to connect to the DC-DC hi voltage pins so I could measure voltage directly on the DC-DC 12V pins (removing the plug from the equation). But alas no change - no voltage on 12V pins
I measured the input voltages before I started (to make sure I was in fact powering the DC-DC converter) and the results I got were interesting. Under load the enable pin voltage dropped to 6V. I reported these finding to my support contact and he said that didn't sound correct. He advised to power the enable pin from +ve in and report results.
I did and found the DC-DC converter burst into life with 13.8V coming from the 12V pins. I plugged the plug back in and powered the enable pin (from back of the plug) from the +ve in pin and I got lights. No need to have the key on as it enables voltage on the enable pin and I was bypassing it.
So it infact may be the MBB is faulty as it supplies power to the DC-DC enable pin.
In my first test I probed the plug when it was not plugged in (no load) and the enable pin was at 113 volts as was the +ve in pin. But now a few days latter the enable pin is reading 108V while the +ve in pin is still at 113V and that is not right but mostly 6V under load is definately not right. Thats what prompted the test to enable the "enable" pin from +ve in pin. Of course you have to be carefull of the 113V you are dealing with as it is exposed in order to probe it.
This is now the end of my testing as the MBB is too complicated for me to test.
So as stated before when 2 of the same thing don't work it points to something else at fault. but maybe .1% (as in chargers in 2014) is not always true.
I have learnt a lot today on how things work in this area.
So while I have solved one problem I have a much bigger one now as the MBB is coded to each bike (you can't scavenge an MBB from one bike and put it on another). I don't know if it can be pre-coded before sending to me. I will need to await supports reply to what to do next.
This should be of interest to johnphillips390 if he ever gets a problem as he is even further from a dealer than me.
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So it infact may be the MBB is faulty as it supplies power to the DC-DC enable pin.
Not necessarily! Oftentimes we overlook the wiring harness because it's just a long piece of copper, and that's not gonna fail, right? Except that they can, and do. In fact, in my thirty-(mumble) years' experience as an EE, more often than any other single item, it's a connector problem. I'd get all over that wiring harness. Check for displaced pins (common in the type of connector where individual crimp connectors are inserted into a shell), connectors not seated all the way, and take each one off and put them on a couple of times, using some contact cleaner spray, to scrub the connecting pins together a bit. Give them a good visual and wiggle the wires to see if they're properly assembled into the connector. It would suck to replace a high-dollar item like the MBB when all you've got is a flaky contact somewhere.
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So it infact may be the MBB is faulty as it supplies power to the DC-DC enable pin.
Not necessarily! Oftentimes we overlook the wiring harness because it's just a long piece of copper, and that's not gonna fail, right? Except that they can, and do. In fact, in my thirty-(mumble) years' experience as an EE, more often than any other single item, it's a connector problem. I'd get all over that wiring harness. Check for displaced pins (common in the type of connector where individual crimp connectors are inserted into a shell), connectors not seated all the way, and take each one off and put them on a couple of times, using some contact cleaner spray, to scrub the connecting pins together a bit. Give them a good visual and wiggle the wires to see if they're properly assembled into the connector. It would suck to replace a high-dollar item like the MBB when all you've got is a flaky contact somewhere.
That is what happened when my original Power Tank wouldn't work. The system had two separate issues. One was a bad PT and the other was a bent pin in a connector that apparently occurred at the factory during assembly.
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So it infact may be the MBB is faulty as it supplies power to the DC-DC enable pin.
Not necessarily! Oftentimes we overlook the wiring harness because it's just a long piece of copper, and that's not gonna fail, right? Except that they can, and do. In fact, in my thirty-(mumble) years' experience as an EE, more often than any other single item, it's a connector problem. I'd get all over that wiring harness. Check for displaced pins (common in the type of connector where individual crimp connectors are inserted into a shell), connectors not seated all the way, and take each one off and put them on a couple of times, using some contact cleaner spray, to scrub the connecting pins together a bit. Give them a good visual and wiggle the wires to see if they're properly assembled into the connector. It would suck to replace a high-dollar item like the MBB when all you've got is a flaky contact somewhere.
I assume you are talking about all the wires on both plugs connecting to the MBB?
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I at least know now that the fault is in the enable power pin, that should eliminate some MBB pins/wires surely?
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I now have a problem with my DC - DC converter. It works fine but it stays on, even with the key off. If I remove both packs on my FX it goes off, but then stays on after I cycle the key switch. The MBB test says passed so maybe the enable is just stuck or maybe leakage? Fortunately I have added a headlight switch so I can turn the lights off regardless. Anyone else had this happen? Lights stay on with key off?
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Hey Keith, I have a DC/DC converter that is staying on after getting a soaking in the rain, mine is the sevcon, I checked the pins and two are 12v pos/neg , two are monolith pos/neg 116v, and the last is the enable, which when the key is on has 116v pos as the enable signal, with the key off the 12volt is always supplying power, no voltage at the enable pin, I called zero tech support and it's common for that to happen after a soaking 😛
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I've been through a lot of water lately so I hope that's it. I plan a good tear down and connector drying session followed with a new coat of dielectric grease. I was getting lots of chassis leakage errors but those stopped, now this.
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Unfortunately I was told that they get shorted internally and then they stay that way, I have added a switch to shut mine off until the replacement arrives, since the original won't shut down I plan on using it as an always on supply run from a switch
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Unfortunately there will be no dealers in Australia now, so I have no idea how we can get ongoing support
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Had my last session with the support tech via skype, he seems happy that there is indeed a fault in the MBB but he raised a point that the BMS may have a date issue with logs once the MBB is replaced. You need the DBI (I think) plug and diagnostic tech to set it. Not sure how to get around that.
check out my second last post here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7060.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7060.0)
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Had my last session with the support tech via skype, he seems happy that there is indeed a fault in the MBB but he raised a point that the BMS may have a date issue with logs once the MBB is replaced. You need the DBI (I think) plug and diagnostic tech to set it. Not sure how to get around that.
check out my second last post here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7060.0 (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=7060.0)
Might be able to access setting the date and time with a serial console to (new?) MBB, and the appropriate access codes, i.e. you could use a DigiNow Data Reaper Dongle as one possible way to get access to the bike settings.
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I somehow lost track of this thread and caught up now.
If pin numbers to check could be supplied along with some photos, that'd be helpful for documentation about the enable line.
IIUC the MBB to DC-DC converter connections must be very short so a resistance or connector problem does sound likely.
An OBD connected console to the MBB is a good idea.
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Unfortunately I was told that they get shorted internally and then they stay that way, I have added a switch to shut mine off until the replacement arrives, since the original won't shut down I plan on using it as an always on supply run from a switch
Can you show how you did this and what parts you used? How has it held up?
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I've been in Europe for the last month and will try to update when I get home
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Has anyone (outside of Zero) ever taken one of these broken charges and diagnosed it?
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I somehow lost track of this thread and caught up now.
If pin numbers to check could be supplied along with some photos, that'd be helpful for documentation about the enable line.
Here is the email extract about the pins...
Hi Glenn,
Maybe I should have given you what I expect to see from each connection:
On the 34-terminal connector on the MBB itself:
- Pin 20 and pin 7 ( expected value is 151k-ohm )
- Pin 20 and pin 18 ( expected value is open-circuit or 10s of mega-ohms )
Between the harness-side MBB connecter and DC-DC converter connector:
- Terminal 20 and DC-DC enable terminal ( expected value is less than 1 ohm )
o Sounds like this connection is good given your results below.
Please let me know what resistances you measure for the top two measurements listed above.
All the best,
Brian Simmons
APAC Customer Experience Electrical Engineer
Zero Motorcycles
Also this email...
Hi Glenn,
It appears that the problem lies within the MBB or the connection between the MBB and the DC-DC converter. I have never seen the MBB’s internal circuitry that drives the DC-DC converter enable signal fail, but it’s not out of the question. Since it’s so rare, I’d say we should take a look at the harnessing first. Pin 20 on the 34-terminal MBB connector carries the signal that drives the DC-DC enable.
I’m including an image of the face of the harness-side of the 34-terminal MBB connector. You’ll have to mirror the image below to get the correct terminal arrangement on the MBB or you can look at the rear of the connector to see how the terminals are arranged. On the MBB itself, please measure the resistance between:
- Pin 20 and pin 7
- Pin 20 and pin 18
see attachment below
Also check the resistance between terminal 20 on the harness-side connector and the enable terminal at the harness-side of the DC-DC connector. To get a good connection to terminal 20, you’ll need to remove the orange face from the connector. The tabs on the sides of the face can be bent a bit to allow for the face to be removed. Once you have a good connection, try manipulating the harness to see if the resistance changes with any movements which might signify damage in the harness.
Please also check that all terminals you see during the above procedures appear clean, unbent, fully seated, and without signs of moisture.
All the best,
Brian Simmons
APAC Customer Experience Electrical Engineer
Zero Motorcycles
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Brian is a great guy and his instructions he gave are very straight forward. This is a great resource for all of us to quickly test if we ever have the same issue.
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I simplified what was communicated but I think I captured it reasonably well:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#DC.2FDC_12V_converter (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#DC.2FDC_12V_converter)
I'm stymied by only having the 2013 routing trace, which disagrees about which pin the enable signal comes from, so I listed both results.
There should be a generic "this is how to check a connector" section but I've reached the end of my writing abilities for today.
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The engineer said that every year has different pin configuration and a different plug by design so you can't plug the wrong MBB into your bike.
Good news though, my new MBB arrived today and everything works again. Yey. Only took about 3 months :(
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The engineer said that every year has different pin configuration and a different plug by design so you can't plug the wrong MBB into your bike.
Good news though, my new MBB arrived today and everything works again. Yey. Only took about 3 months :(
Well, at least you're back on the bike.
Every year has a different pin configuration by design? What the hell...
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The pin configuration changes as new features are added (that part is not necessarily by design) but the different plug is by design so its not possible to plug a incompatible MBB into your bike.
It beats me why they need to change the existing pins around when there are plenty of spares in the plugs.
If they kept the pins in the same place and added new features to spare pins (and the software was engineered for it) then all you would need to do is reflash a MBB from latest year to the specific year model. Then you would not need to keep spare stock for older bikes. It could also be possible to upgrade your older bike with new features latest features.
Harley Davidson often brings out retrospective kits to upgrade older bikes to new features. This way your bike doesn't age (technologicaly) so quick.
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Well I've noticed at least one non-additive pin position discrepancy between years so far but I'm lacking a broad survey and debugging regime to check on the details fully. Oh, and I lack the spare time...
It had not really occurred to me that someone would find changing the connectors motivating in the slightest, but now I have a reason to look. It sounds like the development and servicing of the MBB costs way more than it ought to.
This just sounds shortsighted, where yearly ad hoc patches are the only thing that ship instead of needed qualitative upgrades. I will (without any direct information) speculate that a proper MBB revamp has been in the works for a while but is held up by interlocking systems dependencies that are stalled around it. Or maybe just management can't deal with it in any given quarter and it keeps getting punted.
The bike is overdue for some more resilient systems design, just to cut Zero's costs fixing your bike and others, but also to improve their reputation. "Customer success" starts in engineering planning meetings...
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A side note, to my fellow Aussie Zero owners, with no dealer support, and a phone call to USA customer support, I was able to get my bike diagnosed, replacement parts, and back on the road, so all is not lost for Zero owners.
Although I think Zero could make it a lot easier by setting up a remote support system along with the dealer network. I am thinking a web site to directly order parts from the US and a choice of freighting methods - slow and cheap, expensive and fast. So if I want to order a spare belt then slow and cheap, but if my belt breaks (with no spare) then expensive and fast.
Also an online chat portal with an engineer could really speed things up.
A bundle of software and cables to allow the engineer to remote configure etc your bike.
Mechanical stuff like brakes and tires could be done by any bike shop if you don't want, or can't do it your self.
I remember an Italian dirt bike (years ago) selling in Australia with the message that spares were ordered from the Italian factory and guaranteed to be delivered anywhere in the world within 5 days. If Zero could do the same, that would work for me.
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A side note, to my fellow Aussie Zero owners, with no dealer support, and a phone call to USA customer support, I was able to get my bike diagnosed, replacement parts, and back on the road, so all is not lost for Zero owners.
Although I think Zero could make it a lot easier by setting up a remote support system along with the dealer network. I am thinking a web site to directly order parts from the US and a choice of freighting methods - slow and cheap, expensive and fast. So if I want to order a spare belt then slow and cheap, but if my belt breaks (with no spare) then expensive and fast.
Also an online chat portal with an engineer could really speed things up.
A bundle of software and cables to allow the engineer to remote configure etc your bike.
Mechanical stuff like brakes and tires could be done by any bike shop if you don't want, or can't do it your self.
I remember an Italian dirt bike (years ago) selling in Australia with the message that spares were ordered from the Italian factory and guaranteed to be delivered anywhere in the world within 5 days. If Zero could do the same, that would work for me.
Great to know - thanks for the update