ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: deckofficer on September 22, 2017, 01:16:27 AM
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18 months ago I moved from Northern California to Columbus, New Mexico. I didn't realized how good the EV charging infrastructure was on the West Coast until I moved. My nearest charging station for a west bound trip is 227 miles in Tucson. That kind of distance would require not exceeding 65 mph (A/C on of course) on the 75 mph posted speed limit in a typical 75 kw/hr Tesla Model S. It is a CHAdeMO charger at a good sandwich shop. I really don't want to load up the bike with multiple chargers for getting the most out of very slow Level 2 charging. I would rather use that weight allowance for more batteries. I understand with the low 102 volt system of the Zero that CHAdeMO charging is a hit or miss propitiation and that brings me to why does Zero use such a low voltage? I'm old enough to remember Detroit switching from 6 volt to 12 volt and I don't know why they didn't go to 48 volt instead of 12 volt. If Zero's basic cell building block is based on a 29 ahr 3.7 volt cell then a 306 volt battery is the way to go. Fast DC charging at all stations. Reduced weight as wire sizes can be reduced. Less heat build up because lower amps produce less heat in controller, motor, batteries and cables. I know upping the voltage isn't a simple feat. The EVs that I have built meant in most cases a complete redo. Batteries, charger, controller if present one didn't allow the higher voltage, and motor if the higher voltage caused a rpm increase above its rating. Sometimes I got away with the minimum like 25 years ago hot rodding golf carts. Pulled the (6) 6 volt batteries and replaced them with (6) 12 volt batteries. Changed to a 72 volt controller and charged with (2) golf cart chargers. Same motor but now at full power it spun at twice the speed, produced twice the hp, and instead of 16 mph it ran 32 mph. Zero could easily go to a 275 amp controller instead of the 775 amp they use now and have a bit more power in watts at the new 306 voltage. The motor would require different winding for the higher voltage. The small 1.3 kw on board charger would need to be changed. Rather than letting the Lightning get a foot hold in this market with their 350 volt cycles and total CHAdeMO compatibility, it is time to up the volts like Detroit did in the early 50's.
Now after all that, back to my problem. At present if Zero did offer 306 volt models that could use CHAdeMO, I think my only way out of my EV dark hole of SW New Mexico is the max battery option of 16.3 kwhr, a well designed fairing, and driving at a speed that mimics the city cycle range. That would probably be about 40 mph constant speed. On Interstate 10 with 75 mph posted speed, not a fun proposition but at least I'll have my 4 way flashers on. If Zero's turn signals aren't LED I would swap them out. Any ideas out there to get me out of this EV dark area? Once I make it to Tucson I can drive at freeway speeds.
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Easy peasy, use a SuperCharger and go with Nema 14-50 outlets until proper charging stations are popping up. Go north to the I-10 and top up at Deming, Lordsburg, Willcox and finally that fancy sandwich place. All outlets are documented well on plugshare and the distance between them isn't more than 125 km tops.
Now in Columbus itself I don't see any charging stations so I do see an opportunity for you to green the charging desert over there ;)
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My first thought was for you to move again, this time closer to Tucson, such as to Wilcox. If that's not possible, could you have someone trailer you and your bike closer to Tucson when you need to travel. If money is no object, you could go the Electric Terry route, and add batteries to the sides of your bike to about double the range, and add the chargers to slash the time you rest.
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Maybe for you, an ICE bike isn't so bad after all?
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I love where I live. I live on 2.5 acres in 1st Aero Squadron Airpark, a residential flying community. My hangar is insulated and 60'X40', lots of room for planes, cars, bikes and other toys.
Erasmo, I wish it was easy. I don't want to weigh the bike down with (3) extra chargers just to max out 14-50 RV outlets for a slow Level 2 charge. I'm sure (at least hope) Zero will see the light and up their voltage so fast DC charge stations can be used while on long trips. There is a big difference on long trips between a maxed out level 2 charging at 1 hour and 20 minutes vs 20 minutes on a good CHAdeMO, don't you think?
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There is a big difference on long trips between a maxed out level 2 charging at 1 hour and 20 minutes vs 20 minutes on a good CHAdeMO, don't you think?
Electric Terry and others use multiple outlets to slash charging times. So if your charging park has two or three unused level 2 chargers, or a Tesla destination charger, you could be using them if you have enough battery to take the charge.
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There is a big difference on long trips between a maxed out level 2 charging at 1 hour and 20 minutes vs 20 minutes on a good CHAdeMO, don't you think?
Electric Terry and others use multiple outlets to slash charging times. So if your charging park has two or three unused level 2 chargers, or a Tesla destination charger, you could be using them if you have enough battery to take the charge.
At the very best they might get 1C at level 2 so about an hour. I can't help but think Zero owners would want the ability for CHAdeMO charging. I'm 64 so time in the saddle would be limited to my butt, so the range of 100 miles at 70 mph works for me. The difference of doing 400 mile legs on a cross country trip is 3 hours at charge stations (assuming you leave in the morning fully charged and arrive at your motel empty) at Level 2 vs 1 hour at CHAdeMO.
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Sure, CHAdeMo would be nice. An agreement with Tesla to use their Superchargers would be a hundred times nicer. But if you're going to get out of your EV dead zone soon, you might want to mimic Electric Terry. I think he wrote that he has 200 miles of range at freeway speeds, but don't quote me on that. He regularly does 400 mile trips.
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Sure, CHAdeMo would be nice. An agreement with Tesla to use their Superchargers would be a hundred times nicer. But if you're going to get out of your EV dead zone soon, you might want to mimic Electric Terry. I think he wrote that he has 200 miles of range at freeway speeds, but don't quote me on that. He regularly does 400 mile trips.
Now were talking. At what speed is he getting 200 miles? How much and where did he put the added batteries? I still want to use CHAdeMO so Zero needs to up their voltage or I'll wait for production of the Lightning 218 with their 20 kwhr battery at 380 volts. $47K is a bit of coin for any motorcycle purchase but you do get the fastest production motorcycle made (gas or electric), CHAdeMO charging and enough range to make it to that first CHAdeMO station on a west bound trip with only needing to reduce speed to 60 mph on that leg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=23&v=o3DiAecsh_0
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Terry with Charger on the road: https://www.facebook.com/ChargerTheDog/photos/a.1034679129910906.1073741829.1033979893314163/1653458564699623/?type=3&theater
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Sure, CHAdeMo would be nice. An agreement with Tesla to use their Superchargers would be a hundred times nicer. But if you're going to get out of your EV dead zone soon, you might want to mimic Electric Terry. I think he wrote that he has 200 miles of range at freeway speeds, but don't quote me on that. He regularly does 400 mile trips.
Now were talking. At what speed is he getting 200 miles? How much and where did he put the added batteries? I still want to use CHAdeMO so Zero needs to up their voltage or I'll wait for production of the Lightning 218 with their 20 kwhr battery at 380 volts. $47K is a bit of coin for any motorcycle purchase but you do get the fastest production motorcycle made (gas or electric), CHAdeMO charging and enough range to make it to that first CHAdeMO station on a west bound trip with only needing to reduce speed to 60 mph on that leg.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=23&v=o3DiAecsh_0
Terry accomplished two separate things with his 2015 SR:
- He rode it in a stock (with Power Tank) configuration for at least 200 miles on a charge by riding at ~20mph.
- He fabricated a steel truss holding two 2017 longbrick batteries (via special / definitely unsupported deal), one on each side of the lower part of the battery compartment, and added Hollywood Electrics' upcoming sport touring fairing.
It's the latter that enables 200miles on a charge at highway speeds, and raises the 1C charging limit. His 400 mile per day trips are now something like 7 hours I think because of that. But I'm betting on a windscreen and fairing combination for most riders.
We're barely able to reliably install superchargers outside of the tank area to fit a Power Tank; all the installs so far have been ad hoc and risk cable motion, strain on the luggage racks, weathering, etc.
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Though I live in the East Bay area (California, US), I understand your pain and frustration. Lately I've been taking extended weekend trips. Alas, there are no charging stations (that I know of) in National Parks and Forests. And, once in the central valley and beyond, far, far, far fewer than the bay area. For electrics to really take off (I give it five to ten years) we need much more infrastructure!
Somewhat off topic: for weekend camping trips I'm replacing my Scarabeo 500cc ICE (died two weeks ago) with another ICE. Have about decided on a CB500X. I've tested five or six ICE bikes the past two weeks, and my main conclusion is: I've been totally spoiled by Zero. Um, what's all that smell? And noise? And vibration? Why doesn't it just ... go ... really fast ... when I twist the throttle? Interesting (to me) every time I finish a test ride and get back on the Zero, I instinctively try to shift for the first few starts and stops. Old habits, and all that.
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Until the Tesla Model 3 hits widespread use the Zero S/DS platform is the best value in electric vehicles on the market. I had the lame experience of needing to buy a used 4x4 truck, going from all-electric transportation for 17 mos and diving into petroleum engine transportation again. For all intents I would much rather have purchased a Tesla Model 3 (dual motor) to cover those situations like snow and country mud where the S/DS just isn't a wise idea; Hopefully I'll manage to keep my Zero DSR and not decide to sell it, that is a really useful transportation tool and it "owes" me several tens of thousands more miles on the odometer before I consider it to have been competitive to the ownership cost compared to getting a cheap truck instead of that EV.
TM3 is still on the radar though it just won't be available quickly enough to get me through this winter. I know 4-wheel vehicles are off-topic but what I'm agreeing with is that going back to a petroleum fill station is unsettling after not needing it over a year.
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The battery voltage, at 100%, is about 116V plus a few tenths.
Regarding electric safety regulations, the upper limit of "DC very low voltage" is 120V. At least in Europe, no reason for being different in the US. Beyond this limit, much more caution has to be taken, both in the factory and at the repair shop, which means more cost of safety equipment, tooling, training.... Not so easy for such a small company/retailers/customers community.
When the market for Zero will be 50 times bigger than today, maybe they will consider going a step further in battery voltage.
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Make Friends with:
Fort Willcox RV Park
1765 W. Fort Willcox Loop
Willcox, AZ 85643
and
RoadRunner RV Park
2849 E. Pine St.,
Deming, NM 88030
maybe they will drop their rates for a regular on just a motorcycle.
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I love where I live. I live on 2.5 acres in 1st Aero Squadron Airpark, a residential flying community. My hangar is insulated and 60'X40', lots of room for planes, cars, bikes and other toys.
Erasmo, I wish it was easy. I don't want to weigh the bike down with (3) extra chargers just to max out 14-50 RV outlets for a slow Level 2 charge. I'm sure (at least hope) Zero will see the light and up their voltage so fast DC charge stations can be used while on long trips. There is a big difference on long trips between a maxed out level 2 charging at 1 hour and 20 minutes vs 20 minutes on a good CHAdeMO, don't you think?
Extra chargers do weigh a bit but nothing the bike cannot handle, also higher voltage stuff and CHAdeMO stuff is also pretty heavy, my CHAdeMO topcase was anything but light.
Let's do some napkin maths.
I'm not sure where you get those charging times from but a single 14-50 can deliver up to 12kW. Even a modestly aerodynamic fairing gives you about 60Whr/km at highway speeds, so with an maximum distance of 125km you only need to top up about 7,5kWh to get back to 100% and less at your last charging stop depending on where you need to go in Tuscon.
With 12kW you're looking at about 36 minutes of charging time per stop, less if you have access to more. But even with CHAdeMO you're still looking at about half an hour at least because you can't go above 1C. Believe me I've tried it with CHAdeMO and you get marginally faster charging but give up so many potential locations that it's not worth it.
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An aside, my read of the future of fast charging in the US suggests new non-Tesla vehicle designs should incorporate CCS.
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...and CHAdeMO stuff is also pretty heavy, my CHAdeMO topcase was anything but light.
So your CHAdeMO implementation must have been based on an AC charger? A "pure" CHAdeMO implementation should be pretty light.
That's the real advantage of DC charging, after all. Instead of building 1000 chargers for 1000 vehicles to carry around, build one charging station that all 1000 vehicles can use. Get the heavy, expensive, hot equipment off the vehicles and be able to charge any vehicle at its maximum rate, quickly and easily.
CHAdeMo is a bit of a failure at meeting those ideals (in large part because not all the stations obey the spec), but the general concept still seems like the ideal situation to me. I'm not familiar with the Tesla Supercharger or CCS protocols, but if they are adequately flexible, and it they're obeyed by all charging stations, they might both be very good solutions. I'm partial to the Tesla solution because of the amount of power they're able to achieve with a fairly small connector and cable, but it's extreme overkill for our bikes. I'm sure CCS is more than adequate for our needs, if someone works out a proper handshaking adapter and CCS continues to propagate quickly.
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So your CHAdeMO implementation must have been based on an AC charger? A "pure" CHAdeMO implementation should be pretty light.
No pure CHAdeMO, I just weighed it and is exactly 7kg.
That's the real advantage of DC charging, after all. Instead of building 1000 chargers for 1000 vehicles to carry around, build one charging station that all 1000 vehicles can use. Get the heavy, expensive, hot equipment off the vehicles and be able to charge any vehicle at its maximum rate, quickly and easily.
CHAdeMo is a bit of a failure at meeting those ideals (in large part because not all the stations obey the spec), but the general concept still seems like the ideal situation to me. I'm not familiar with the Tesla Supercharger or CCS protocols, but if they are adequately flexible, and it they're obeyed by all charging stations, they might both be very good solutions. I'm partial to the Tesla solution because of the amount of power they're able to achieve with a fairly small connector and cable, but it's extreme overkill for our bikes. I'm sure CCS is more than adequate for our needs, if someone works out a proper handshaking adapter and CCS continues to propagate quickly.
I do agree with you that DC is the best way to charge quickly on long travels and would love to have one factory installed on the bike.
That being said, DC is more for charging next to the motorway while you down a coffee and go again, AC still is the way to go if you plan to be somewhere for around an hour or so with your car. It is magnitudes cheaper to install than DC and works perfectly for supermarket visits and other general errant running.
Now we with our by comparison tiny bike batteries can capitalise on that already existing infrastructure to quickcharge, whether you source it from AC or DC doesn't matter if you can't charge faster than 1C anyway and AC is everywhere.
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On that point, have you already started looking in if there are any plans to install at least an L2 charger in Columbus? The only way to green the charging desert fast is by your own actions, passively waiting won't help.
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On that point, have you already started looking in if there are any plans to install at least an L2 charger in Columbus? The only way to green the charging desert fast is by your own actions, passively waiting won't help.
I wonder how practical it is to, instead of spending 30K+ on a DC charging bike, to spend 20K+ on an 11kW AC charging bike and contribute to have Tesla destination chargers or dub-jay chargers installed along your route.
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Heck, if you are part of the solution, you can help spec installs to make
sure non-wasteful charging is installed.
NEMA 14-50 is way cheaper to install than J1772, and simple J1772
is way cheaper to install than cloud-connected metered stations
(I'm looking at you ChargePoint).
In fact, J1772 stations can be higher powered than the usual 3Kw-6.7Kw
stations we usually find.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
Hey, look, 19.2Kw.
For cheapest install, partner with a 24 hour business,
keep the key behind the counter, run the charging through
their cash register : - ) They may find the extra business
it diverts their way makes charging for power unnecessary.
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Maybe get together with a local business, sponsor a charger?
https://www.suncountryhighway.com/en/Product/Sponsor-a-Charger
Their SCH100 stations, up to 80-amp from a single J-plug, are very cool.