ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Energica => Topic started by: SM on October 30, 2017, 12:42:41 AM
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Trying to understand the issue of power, electric HP. I understand the Energica EGO has a monstrous 145HP continuous power rating while the Zero SR is rated at only 28HP continuous power. I don't think I go the right number from Energica though because the Zero SR's 28HP continuous rating translates into 70HP peak. Does the EGO have a 300HP+ peak power rating. Could anyone shed some light on this?
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Trying to understand the issue of power, electric HP. I understand the Energica EGO has a monstrous 145HP continuous power rating while the Zero SR is rated at only 28HP continuous power. I don't think I go the right number from Energica though because the Zero SR's 28HP continuous rating translates into 70HP peak. Does the EGO have a 300HP+ peak power rating. Could anyone shed some light on this?
I think it depend in teh interpretation of what is exactly "CONTINUOUS"..
The Continuous that Zero use i think it mean a test that validate witch power that all components can't see any increase of a single degree C... so at 28hp, the Zero dont increase by a degree celsius on any components ( controller, battery, motor etc) ... but for other company like energica, that "continuous" might be 45 minutes....
in other words that is related to a power that get stabilized temp the entire system can operate at
Doc
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Trying to understand the issue of power, electric HP. I understand the Energica EGO has a monstrous 145HP continuous power rating while the Zero SR is rated at only 28HP continuous power. I don't think I go the right number from Energica though because the Zero SR's 28HP continuous rating translates into 70HP peak. Does the EGO have a 300HP+ peak power rating. Could anyone shed some light on this?
I think it depend in teh interpretation of what is exactly "CONTINUOUS"..
The Continuous that Zero use i think it mean a test that validate witch power that all components can't see any increase of a single degree C... so at 28hp, the Zero dont increase by a degree celsius on any components ( controller, battery, motor etc) ... but for other company like energica, that "continuous" might be 45 minutes....
in other words that is related to a power that get stabilized temp the entire system can operate at
Doc
to further that, some less-than-reputable makers will call something continuous because the battery supplied is so small that before it could overheat, the battery needs to be recharged... So if you use a larger battery then they "tested" it with, you can overheat it.
also another point... if its watercooled, its possible to build a cooling system that will keep it cool, even if a huge amount of the power is turning to heat.
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Trying to understand the issue of power, electric HP. I understand the Energica EGO has a monstrous 145HP continuous power rating while the Zero SR is rated at only 28HP continuous power. I don't think I go the right number from Energica though because the Zero SR's 28HP continuous rating translates into 70HP peak. Does the EGO have a 300HP+ peak power rating. Could anyone shed some light on this?
How I get this:
Continuous power gets measured over a period of time with full throttle. I dont remember how long it was, but it's not that short.
Because zero's motor is air-cooled, the power cuts back after some time to prevent overheating (with the newer models later then with the earlier motors, what explains the rise in continous hp). Energica has an oil-cooled motor that wont overheat, so you can get the full power over the whole test-period. This explains the differences.
edit: to your info: in my country (Switzerland) and general in Europe, the continuois power gets measured always the same way. The manufacturers can not make their own rules to measure it as suggested above. But i dont know how US handles it
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Trying to understand the issue of power, electric HP. I understand the Energica EGO has a monstrous 145HP continuous power rating while the Zero SR is rated at only 28HP continuous power. I don't think I go the right number from Energica though because the Zero SR's 28HP continuous rating translates into 70HP peak. Does the EGO have a 300HP+ peak power rating. Could anyone shed some light on this?
How I get this:
Continuous power gets measured over a period of time with full throttle. I dont remember how long it was, but it's not that short.
Because zero's motor is air-cooled, the power cuts back after some time to prevent overheating (with the newer models later then with the earlier motors, what explains the rise in continous hp). Energica has an oil-cooled motor that wont overheat, so you can get the full power over the whole test-period. This explains the differences.
edit: to your info: in my country (Switzerland) and general in Europe, the continuois power gets measured always the same way. The manufacturers can not make their own rules to measure it as suggested above. But i dont know how US handles it
Theres no diff between what you said and what I said... the "power gets measured over a period of time with full throttle.".... its just whatever that time is.
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Trying to understand the issue of power, electric HP. I understand the Energica EGO has a monstrous 145HP continuous power rating while the Zero SR is rated at only 28HP continuous power. I don't think I go the right number from Energica though because the Zero SR's 28HP continuous rating translates into 70HP peak. Does the EGO have a 300HP+ peak power rating. Could anyone shed some light on this?
How I get this:
Continuous power gets measured over a period of time with full throttle. I dont remember how long it was, but it's not that short.
Because zero's motor is air-cooled, the power cuts back after some time to prevent overheating (with the newer models later then with the earlier motors, what explains the rise in continous hp). Energica has an oil-cooled motor that wont overheat, so you can get the full power over the whole test-period. This explains the differences.
edit: to your info: in my country (Switzerland) and general in Europe, the continuois power gets measured always the same way. The manufacturers can not make their own rules to measure it as suggested above. But i dont know how US handles it
My recollection is that when it comes to range, the U.S. electric motorcycle manufacturers made up, and agreed upon, their own standard for riding at highway speeds. The exception, I believe, is for the "city cycle" which is a government standard.
Regarding power and top speeds, here is what Zero claims for the 2018 Zero S in their owner's manual for Europe:
Estimated Top Speed
(max)
86 mph (139 km/h)
Estimated Top Speed
(sustained)
80 mph (129 km/h)
Motor Net Torque
(According to UNECE
Regulation No. 85)
• ZF7.2: 80 lb·ft (108 Nm)
• ZF14.4: 80 lb·ft (109 Nm)
Motor Net Power
(According to UNECE
Regulation No. 85)
• ZF7.2: 31 hp (23 kW)
• ZF14.4: 59 hp (44 kW)
And here is what they say for the say for the 2018 Zero S for "The Rest of the World. Interestingly, power and torque output is not listed under this category of specifications:
Estimated Top Speed
(max)
• ZF7.2: 91 mph (146 km/h)
• ZF13.0: 98 mph (158 km/h)
Estimated Top Speed
(sustained)
• ZF7.2: 80 mph (129 km/h)
• ZF13.0: 85 mph (137 km/h)
However, Zero's website claimed specifications list the following power and torque for the 2018 S model. I'll let someone else respond to why there are differences in Zero's various published specifications:
81 ft-lb (110 Nm)
60 hp (45 kW) @ 5,300 rpm
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Trying to understand the issue of power, electric HP. I understand the Energica EGO has a monstrous 145HP continuous power rating while the Zero SR is rated at only 28HP continuous power. I don't think I go the right number from Energica though because the Zero SR's 28HP continuous rating translates into 70HP peak. Does the EGO have a 300HP+ peak power rating. Could anyone shed some light on this?
I think it depend in teh interpretation of what is exactly "CONTINUOUS"..
The Continuous that Zero use i think it mean a test that validate witch power that all components can't see any increase of a single degree C... so at 28hp, the Zero dont increase by a degree celsius on any components ( controller, battery, motor etc) ... but for other company like energica, that "continuous" might be 45 minutes....
in other words that is related to a power that get stabilized temp the entire system can operate at
Doc
Yes it is the right number from energica. Energica specifications are quite accurate. The 145bhp continuous power is the homologation test result. For UNECE regulation the continuous power is the maximum power the Powertrain is able to deliver without loss of performance or fault for a duration of 30 minutes. In case of energica ego this value matches the max or peak power since it is designed (in terms of cooling mainly) to operate at full power for an indefinite time as a proper Powertrain has to do. Does a car after 2 minutes of full power degrades its performances?
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YES. Most vehicles cannot maintain PEAK POWER indefinitely. EVs such as Zero Motorcycles have continuous peak power ratings that are a fraction of the peak power that may be delivered for 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes.
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If the Energica power is calculated over 30 minutes, that's 2C rating on teh battery and at 145hp ( about 108kW) that mean the battery should have about 108kW/2C = 54kWh energi witch is obviously not possibel actually ( Terry had nearly 40kWh on his Zero and it was abouty 1000 pounds weight!)
So let say the energica is 20kWh witch is more realistic as max energy in a motorcycle with actual max performance density battery)
20kWh at 108kW mean driving WOT for 11 minutes from full to empty
But in fact it has about 11.7kWh so that,s more like 7 minutes run time !!! from 100% to 0% SOC... at full power
The Zero SR2017 is 52kW and ZF13 (11.2kWh usable) if infinite cooling would exist, could run just 13 minutes.... ( 11.2/52)*60minutes
So.. as some said... max power rating depend ALSO on the battery energy in term of run time... no need to give 30 minutes runtime unless the battery is capable of... let's talk about realistic real life in the field numbers then....
Doc
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DoctorBass, you hit the nail on the head. I'd be very happy if the wife didn't require a new license to ride an Energica. Local dealer also commented they don't quite know where the figure for the Ego's power rating is coming from, it doesn't seem right. They said they confirmed with Energica but don't seem at all convinced. The number seems more marketing focused.
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DoctorBass, you hit the nail on the head. I'd be very happy if the wife didn't require a new license to ride an Energica. Local dealer also commented they don't quite know where the figure for the Ego's power rating is coming from, it doesn't seem right. They said they confirmed with Energica but don't seem at all convinced. The number seems more marketing focused.
I have this thing about Italian horsepower claims. I used to own a 1969 Garelli 125. Its brochure claimed that the bike had 15 hp (perhaps because that was the minimum hp required to be freeway legal in California at the time), but once I bought the bike I discovered that a Honda Super 90 (8 hp) would blow its doors off in both acceleration and top speed. I believe that the Garelli actually had about 5 or 6 hp, which would have been about the same as a Vespa 150 of the era. So I am somewhat distrustful of Italian motorcycle horsepower claims and I always take them with a "grain of salt". ::)
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A couple of comments: cont. power rating reflects the systems ability to manage/shed heat without imploding. And continuous power is only reached once you hit base speed, probably pretty far up the rpm curve. You can't hardly use it, unless you're at the IoM or someplace. I expect testing is done with a power supply, not batteries.
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They probably tested per ECE R85
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R085r1e.pdf
That regulation has sections that test peak (they call it net) power, and 30minute maximum contiuous power. The net and 30minute maximum contiuous power of the powertrain is tested without consideration of the battery capacity or capability, however the continuous power rating of the vehicle could factor in the maximum power the vehicle battery can support for 30 minutes.
The regulation is also pretty non spesific about a few things such as cooling requirements. I would not be surprised if the Energica powertrain tested for 30minutes at 100kW or whatever they are advertising, since they could use a fairly large radiator, and alot of airflow past it for the test.
Like some of you have noted, and I also don't know, is why they would want their powertrain to test at such high continuous power, since that is what is reported for insurance and registration purposes which I suspect puts their vehicles in the highest, most expensive category.
-ryan
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Ryan: It is all about bragging rights and marketing. When trying to sell any vehicle, it seems like you can never have too much power. I have always wondered why a soccer mom driving an SUV needs to buy one with 350 hp. ??? Is that so she can be sure that she can exceed the 25mph speed limit in a school zone? :o
Personally, I look for a vehicle with a wide spread of usable power and good torque production. Now let me see. ??? Where could I find a vehicle like that? ;)
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DoctorBass, you hit the nail on the head. I'd be very happy if the wife didn't require a new license to ride an Energica. Local dealer also commented they don't quite know where the figure for the Ego's power rating is coming from, it doesn't seem right. They said they confirmed with Energica but don't seem at all convinced. The number seems more marketing focused.
The number is not marketing focused. The number is coming from the test that was performed in order to get the type approval.
The continuous power is simply the continuous power that the powertrain can deliver for 30 (or 15 minutes if you ask to the Homologation
Authority for a time reduction justified by technical reasons). The power is measured in standard driving condition, without any modification to the cooling system. The power test is a test of the powertrain in strict sense. This means that the vehicle in theory can be connected to an external power supply set at the nominal voltage and current. This means that the peak power at battery fully charged could be even more (normally nominal voltage is defined @ nominal cell voltage -> 3.6/3.7V not the maximum 4.1/4.2V). The power rating of Energica Ego means just that the powertrain is designed to operate at full power for an undefined time. For sure it is not what the battery can do. If the battery is depleted you can't go at full power even for 5 seconds.
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My understanding is the max continuous power rating is the spec bike, as is, no external power.
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I am checking with our technical department regarding the exact ISO that was used to determine the kW rating of our motors. Once I hear back from them I will be happy to share that data.
I know that we did extensive testing at Idiada's facility in Italy for all out vehicles to insure compliance with Euro 4 homologation.
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Seems one of our engineers was up early / late. I confirmed that the testing that provided us with 107kW rating was UN Reg 85. You can read the .pdf here (http://"http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs/2013/R085r1e.pdf"). After reading through the section about the testing 5.3, I think there might be a bit of confusion here. These tests are for the drivetrain of the vehicle only, that does not include the battery pack. There are 2 tests performed "net power" and "maximum 30 minute power". To be valid the net power needs to be within 2% of the max 30 min power recorded in the test.