ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: JaimeC on December 20, 2017, 12:36:15 AM
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I just got off the phone with my local dealer. Here's the situation: Ever since the last software update, the bike has been acting as though it has the 9.6 kWh battery pack and not the 13 kWh pack. From the numbers on the dash and on the Android app, my starting range is SIGNIFICANTLY lower in the morning than it used to be.
Before the flash, it would typically show anywhere between 80 - 100 miles remaining. Now, it typically indicates 55 - 70 miles remaining. This isn't the FIRST winter I've had the bike, and although I expect the starting range to be somewhat lower on colder mornings, it's never been THIS low before.
Second is the rate of discharge I'm seeing. Before the flash, I would get to the office with roughly 80% of the battery remaining. Now I'm seeing less than 70%. The one way distance (mostly highway at 70 mph) is 17 miles.
The dealer offered to come over to the house and fetch the bike tomorrow (which is more than I expected; I thought I'd have to make an appointment to drop it off myself). I'll let you know what they find but I'm wondering if anyone else has seen anything like this, or have any guesses as to what is going on? The bike is still under warranty (it'll expire in April) and the battery warranty still has more than three years left so I'm not worried about any of that.
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Could it be that the new flash was for a lower-spec Zero? Perhaps the technician selected the wrong model Zero from their website? ???
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That was my thought. Guess we'll find out soon enough. In the meantime, I posted this experience on the Zero Owner's Facebook group and it looks like I'm NOT alone. Quite a few people are sharing similar experiences with that last update. Damn... and I intentionally did NOT have it done as soon as it came out but decided to wait a few months first. :(
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I had a similar issue on my 2016 SR
I started getting less than full results
and after a few charges, it would not
operate at all. It turned out to be a
bad BMS I think.
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A Facebook user named Burton Rosenburger responded with this information. I'm hoping he's right and it's THAT simple:
"Here is some dealer fu for you .. when they flash a bike they have to select how many bricks you have and run that update (think of it like a fancy bat file but at some point in there it sets the bricks to 1,2,3,4 etc) ...
You just need to have them reflash it with the right amount of bricks for your bike size ... Had it happen to my bike as well."
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The dealer was good on their word. They were here at precisely 12:00 and picked up the bike. Just have to wait now and see what they find.
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I read an interesting article in my newspaper today, written by Seung Lee and published by the bayareanewsgroup.com. The article states that yesterday, Apple acknowledged that it limits older iPhone performance with its new iOS software updates. Apple curbs the speed of aging iPhones to limit their computing power in order to prolong the life of the phones' batteries, which apparently get tired after some time. The article quotes The Verge as saying "Lithium-ion batteries become less capable of supplying peak current demands when in cold conditions, have a low battery charge or as they age over time, which can result in the device unexpectedly shutting down to protect its electronic components."
Apple said that the change was an unannounced feature to protect the iPhone. "Last year we released a feature for the iPhone 6, 6s and SE to smooth out the instantaneous peaks only when needed to prevent the device from unexpectedly shutting down during these conditions. They have now extended that feature to iPhone 7 with iOS 11.2 and plan to add support for other products in the future."
However, iPhone users and journalists have floated the idea that Apple is creating "planned obsolescence" so as to "squeeze" users into upgrading to the newest model. Apple was accused of planned obsolescence over the iPhone 4s in a New York lawsuit in 2015.
You just never know what a new software update is going to do. ::) That is why I prefer not to update software if everything is working fine and there are no problems that would appear to need an update to resolve. ;)
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You make a lot of sense, Richard230.
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I might also add that it would seem to me to be appropriate for any company updating software to provide the consumer with a description of what the update will change on the currently installed computer program. That certainly is what Firefox does when it updates its software - every week or two. ::)
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I might also add that it would seem to me to be appropriate for any company updating software to provide the consumer with a description of what the update will change on the currently installed computer program. That certainly is what Firefox does when it updates its software - every week or two. ::)
They dont always tell either.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/16/16784628/mozilla-mr-robot-arg-plugin-firefox-looking-glass
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I might also add that it would seem to me to be appropriate for any company updating software to provide the consumer with a description of what the update will change on the currently installed computer program. That certainly is what Firefox does when it updates its software - every week or two. ::)
They did. Nearly everyone here either got a letter in the mail, or an E-Mail detailing the update.
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I might also add that it would seem to me to be appropriate for any company updating software to provide the consumer with a description of what the update will change on the currently installed computer program. That certainly is what Firefox does when it updates its software - every week or two. ::)
They did. Nearly everyone here either got a letter in the mail, or an E-Mail detailing the update.
That is news to me. I guess I wasn't on their update notification list. ???
And that news item regarding Firefox, posted by the Dude, was also something that I hadn't heard of before. I guess I am just out of the loop - as usual. ::)
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The information is in this link, and is pinned to the top of this forum:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6878.0
Just got off the phone with the dealership. They ran diagnostics and couldn't detect any errors in the system. They are going to reach out to Zero to see what they have to say now.
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The information is in this link, and is pinned to the top of this forum:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6878.0
Just got off the phone with the dealership. They ran diagnostics and couldn't detect any errors in the system. They are going to reach out to Zero to see what they have to say now.
Now I recall that general information from Zero. But I was thinking of more specific details for every new firmware update so that I could decide how important it might be for me to visit my dealer and have that update installed.
I got the same response from my dealer when I asked about my instrument display and green charging light remaining on after the charger's power plug was disconnected. They had never heard of such a thing happening before and there were no errors in the bike's log. Installing the latest firmware update had no impact on my charging issue. If they contacted Zero about the problem, I didn't hear about it.
Good luck with your issue. I hope they can correct the problem. It sounds like your dealer is doing the best that they can.
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JamieC —. Any idea what firmware revision you were on?
I found my 2016SR+PT now with v51 to be absolutely horrible. SOC gauge and charging are all off. It was perfect with the previous version 49. Bike goes to 0% at only 55 miles now, used to be 120+. Sometimes it goes turtle mode while indicating 50%. Battery shows kwhr numbers that make no sense. Should hold 14kwhr, but only takes 9-10 from the wall but indicates it took 12, and I’m pretty sure the charger isn’t over unity. :) when I talked to the dealer and they talked to Zero, the reason they told me was because I use the Zero supplied QuiQ charger in addition to the onboard and I shouldn’t do that! Needless to say that I’m pretty upset about this version and the deferral from Zero that this is my fault for using the QuiQ that they sold me.
I’m trying to get in to the dealer again for the third time as I hear there is now a v52 for the 2016. Otherwise this thing has become nearly useless as I don’t know if it can make the trip to work or not...
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...the reason they told me was because I use the Zero supplied QuiQ charger in addition to the onboard...
Are they suggesting you not use the onboard charger when using instead a QuiQ charger? I'm confused they said not to use the QuiQ but does that mean to use only the onboard or to use only the QuiQ?
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JamieC —. Any idea what firmware revision you were on?
I found my 2016SR+PT now with v51 to be absolutely horrible. SOC gauge and charging are all off. It was perfect with the previous version 49. Bike goes to 0% at only 55 miles now, used to be 120+. Sometimes it goes turtle mode while indicating 50%. Battery shows kwhr numbers that make no sense. Should hold 14kwhr, but only takes 9-10 from the wall but indicates it took 12, and I’m pretty sure the charger isn’t over unity. :) when I talked to the dealer and they talked to Zero, the reason they told me was because I use the Zero supplied QuiQ charger in addition to the onboard and I shouldn’t do that! Needless to say that I’m pretty upset about this version and the deferral from Zero that this is my fault for using the QuiQ that they sold me.
I’m trying to get in to the dealer again for the third time as I hear there is now a v52 for the 2016. Otherwise this thing has become nearly useless as I don’t know if it can make the trip to work or not...
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My 2018 Zero visited the shop a couple of weeks ago and it was checked for the latest app and firmware. This is what the Zero app shows as installed in my phone and my bike:
"App Version 1.6.50 (21)"
"OS Version 5.1.1 (22)"
Things seem to be working OK for me using these versions. My only observation is that the firmware installed in my bike seems to be more conservative regarding range than that of my 2014 S. But the difference is not too great, maybe 10% less. I am seeing a slightly lower voltage when fully charged and a lower range estimate too. My 2014, when it was new and fully charged, used to show 117 volts and 180 mile range, but my 2018 bike shows 116 volts (drops to 115 volts almost immediately) and an estimated range of 130 miles when first turned on with a 100% charge. However, I wouldn't be surprised if that was done on purpose by Zero to provide a range "cushion" below 0% and to attempt to increase the life of their battery pack by reducing the maximum and minimum voltages of the cells by the BMS. (All of my charging is performed by the on-board charger.)
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...the reason they told me was because I use the Zero supplied QuiQ charger in addition to the onboard...
Are they suggesting you not use the onboard charger when using instead a QuiQ charger? I'm confused they said not to use the QuiQ but does that mean to use only the onboard or to use only the QuiQ?
They told me that I should only use the onboard and not add the QuiQs, as charging at 33A can cause the pack to lose isolation and become imbalanced...
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"App Version 1.6.50 (21)"
"OS Version 5.1.1 (22)"
Those are not anything to do with the bike, only your phone device.
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I just got off the phone with my local dealer. Here's the situation: Ever since the last software update, the bike has been acting as though it has the 9.6 kWh battery pack and not the 13 kWh pack. From the numbers on the dash and on the Android app, my starting range is SIGNIFICANTLY lower in the morning than it used to be.
Before the flash, it would typically show anywhere between 80 - 100 miles remaining. Now, it typically indicates 55 - 70 miles remaining. This isn't the FIRST winter I've had the bike, and although I expect the starting range to be somewhat lower on colder mornings, it's never been THIS low before.
Second is the rate of discharge I'm seeing. Before the flash, I would get to the office with roughly 80% of the battery remaining. Now I'm seeing less than 70%. The one way distance (mostly highway at 70 mph) is 17 miles.
The dealer offered to come over to the house and fetch the bike tomorrow (which is more than I expected; I thought I'd have to make an appointment to drop it off myself). I'll let you know what they find but I'm wondering if anyone else has seen anything like this, or have any guesses as to what is going on? The bike is still under warranty (it'll expire in April) and the battery warranty still has more than three years left so I'm not worried about any of that.
Exact same problem going on with my 2015 SR. Noticed an immediate reduction in range after Firmware. Unlike most readers here, I have not been interested in the various windows on the dash or using the App. I just depend on battery gauge and trip odometer. I should have switched to Range earlier as I know I would have realized a definite rather than an estimated problem. My riding area is well defined. I never got less than 0.7 miles per 1%, or est 70 miles at freeway speed. Now I get 0.5. I often got 1.2 or 1.3 riding around 45 mph or less. Now it’s never more than 1 to 1.
The app shows 9.3 kWh capacity with te 12.5 battery. The loss of range is about the same % as loss of battery capacity.
My dealer sent all the info to Zero and we await their reply. Glad to know I’m not alone. -George
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"App Version 1.6.50 (21)"
"OS Version 5.1.1 (22)"
Those are not anything to do with the bike, only your phone device.
Well then, that is not very helpful when it comes to checking for the latest firmware update. :(
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... when I talked to the dealer and they talked to Zero, the reason they told me was because I use the Zero supplied QuiQ charger in addition to the onboard and I shouldn’t do that! Needless to say that I’m pretty upset about this version and the deferral from Zero that this is my fault for using the QuiQ that they sold me.
That's RIDICULOUS. That is exactly how you're SUPPOSED to use the QuiQ charger! If not, it's not a "Quick Charger" because it'll charge even slower than the onboard charger.
Are you SURE that's what Zero told the dealer, or is the dealer making something up to get you off his back??
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Exact same problem going on with my 2015 SR. Noticed an immediate reduction in range after Firmware. Unlike most readers here, I have not been interested in the various windows on the dash or using the App. I just depend on battery gauge and trip odometer. I should have switched to Range earlier as I know I would have realized a definite rather than an estimated problem. My riding area is well defined. I never got less than 0.7 miles per 1%, or est 70 miles at freeway speed. Now I get 0.5. I often got 1.2 or 1.3 riding around 45 mph or less. Now it’s never more than 1 to 1.
The app shows 9.3 kWh capacity with te 12.5 battery. The loss of range is about the same % as loss of battery capacity.
My dealer sent all the info to Zero and we await their reply. Glad to know I’m not alone. -George
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I have noticed that it’s variable as well. Ride the bike until it dies and the next time the gauge will be closer. Partial charges and higher rate charges will mess it up again. Sometimes it will report that there are 25kwhr, sometimes 8kwhr. Regardless, my range, like yours, is clearly 25% lower regardless of SOC indication based on riding to the point it can’t maintain highway speed. The Wh/mi measurement also agrees with the reduction.
My big problem is twofold: I can’t tell how much range I’ll have on any given charge (even though that objectively is based on cell voltage); and Zero refuses to accept that this is a problem at all and blames it on us when it was clearly working fine before. As a long term EV user and advocate, I accept a lot of early adopter and SOC uncertainty issues, but being blamed for their bad firmware (for using their charger!) is just offensive.
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... when I talked to the dealer and they talked to Zero, the reason they told me was because I use the Zero supplied QuiQ charger in addition to the onboard and I shouldn’t do that! Needless to say that I’m pretty upset about this version and the deferral from Zero that this is my fault for using the QuiQ that they sold me.
That's RIDICULOUS. That is exactly how you're SUPPOSED to use the QuiQ charger! If not, it's not a "Quick Charger" because it'll charge even slower than the onboard charger.
Are you SURE that's what Zero told the dealer, or is the dealer making something up to get you off his back??
Yup, that is what they told the dealer and then told me. So I haven’t used the QuiQs unless absolutely necessary since then. But since it has this problem, I haven’t been riding much at all as I don’t like getting stuck — pushed too many EVs to a plug in my life already.
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I think you’re quoting two posters here. I came into the discussion two pages late. I only related to losing range and apparent battery capacity after the Update. I don’t use a QuiQ charger although I have one.
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I finally remembered how to decode bike logs. I ended up with 6834 log entries, the first 1100 logs were before my 2018 S ever left the factory. I have firmware revision 1536, Board revision 125 and Model W (whatever that means) ???
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Just got off the phone with the dealer. They claim they worked with Zero techs and couldn't find anything wrong with the bike, and that Zero is saying the issue has to do with the drop in temperature. This is the second winter I've had this bike and last winter I NEVER saw a drop in range like I'm seeing since this last update. They're going to deliver the bike back to me, but I told them when the weather warms up, I'm going to double check their claims. Something isn't right.
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@ Gborgan.
Have you heard anything back from Zero? As with yourself and others I have lost about 20% after the firmware update.
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I have updated firmware on a 2016 S. Had a few days of warmer weather, and got my range back during those days. Hoping your bike will do the same!
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I have updated firmware on a 2016 S. Had a few days of warmer weather, and got my range back during those days. Hoping your bike will do the same!
We've got two warm(er) days of steady rain here, followed by ANOTHER deep freeze so it'll be awhile before I get to verify this for myself. :'(
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@ Gborgan.
Have you heard anything back from Zero? As with yourself and others I have lost about 20% after the firmware update.
Took my ‘15 SR to the dealer a week ago Wednesday for tests. Haven’t heard anything yet.
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I have updated firmware on a 2016 S. Had a few days of warmer weather, and got my range back during those days. Hoping your bike will do the same!
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I’m in the San Diego area. We have had unseasonably warm weather until the last couple of days when the bike has been in the shop. Temperature would not be the cause of my lowered range.
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JamieC —. Any idea what firmware revision you were on?
I found my 2016SR+PT now with v51 to be absolutely horrible. SOC gauge and charging are all off. It was perfect with the previous version 49. Bike goes to 0% at only 55 miles now, used to be 120+. Sometimes it goes turtle mode while indicating 50%. Battery shows kwhr numbers that make no sense. Should hold 14kwhr, but only takes 9-10 from the wall but indicates it took 12, and I’m pretty sure the charger isn’t over unity. :) when I talked to the dealer and they talked to Zero, the reason they told me was because I use the Zero supplied QuiQ charger in addition to the onboard and I shouldn’t do that! Needless to say that I’m pretty upset about this version and the deferral from Zero that this is my fault for using the QuiQ that they sold me.
I’m trying to get in to the dealer again for the third time as I hear there is now a v52 for the 2016. Otherwise this thing has become nearly useless as I don’t know if it can make the trip to work or not...
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Did you get the firmware updated to a newer revision and fix the range issue? Did you download the zero voltage app to see if the issue is just the range estimation algorithm?
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Hi All !
Just got fresh news to tell you about this subject !
I had EXACTLY the same problem as mentionned in the topic !
SR 2016. 8.500 Km. No PT
Updated the firmware (Rev.53) via my Dealer 2 weeks ago.
And immediatly noticed a dramatic deacrease of the range AND of the amount of KW displayed in the app (8.5 Kwh vs 11.5 / 12 Kwh) .
The dealer told me a discussed with Zero and they recommend to empty the batery until the bike could not move at all. (I absolutely do not like to do this...)
But I did it this W.End ( very stressy on highspeed road to see the counter dropping to zero and no exit in the next 4 km... ) . But it was ok, and I even had to make (a lot of) circles in the neighbourhood tu empty it at all...
After that, I charged it.
At the beginning It was written: full charge in 7h26: Not good, that's the charging time of a 9.6Kwh Pack
6 hours later it was only 40 %
At the end, it was 100% charged in 10H. And the App shows 12,5 KwH
This morning, on ECO Mode, by a rainy day ( usual in Paris for the last 2 months), the estimated range, at the arrival, was 178 km. If I add the 10 kilometers of my trip, the total rage range is then close to 190 km.
That's mean My lovely bike is Back !! Ah ! Ah ! too happy ! :-)
Hope this could help some of you !
Antoine
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hey antoine,
thank you for your post. I have the same issue with my SR "15. After firmware rev. mbb 51/bms39 in September
2017 a significant range drop and only 8 kwh capacity at full charge on the zero app.
I did not believe that and did the test to drive my bike until 1 or 2% soc. Got the expected range in sport mode
something about 165 km. After recharge i had 100%, 11,6 kwh and an estimated range of 175 km.
So everything was fine.
After a few charging cycles the problems came back. The estimate range and indicated capacity after charging
dropped again.
Also the soc during driving the bike drops quicker than i was used to before this issues.
The only parameter i noticed i could rely on was the volt indicated on the app which always correlated with range
/soc i would expect.
In november i had another update to 52 /40 and hoped to fix the issues without success.
I`m happy for you getting your bike back and hope your issue is fixed. Anyhow please keep us informed.
see you Peter
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Glad yours came back at least initially. Mine never showed above 9.3 kWh at 100% after Firmware.
Have you updated the Zero app on your phone? Gone are kWh. Now it shows Volts. I see 116 full (12.5 battery) and 91 when low enough to stop. What’s with that switch? Meanwhile no answers on the reduced range.
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My 2018 S with PT still shows 15.138 kWh on my Zero app when fully charged after I checked it today. Voltage shows 116 volts. I rode 37 miles the other day and only used 25% of the battery pack when the ambient temperature was 65 degrees. :)
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I can now OFFICIALLY call "BS" on my dealer and Zero's assertion that the reason for the low range readout since the last update was due to cold weather. It was 70 degrees today, and the readout on the range for the bike fully charged was 62 miles. Prior to the flash, it was anywhere from 80 to 95 miles so the new firmware is DEFINITELY screwed up!!!
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I can now OFFICIALLY call "BS" on my dealer and Zero's assertion that the reason for the low range readout since the last update was due to cold weather. It was 70 degrees today, and the readout on the range for the bike fully charged was 62 miles. Prior to the flash, it was anywhere from 80 to 95 miles so the new firmware is DEFINITELY screwed up!!!
Or perhaps you are the victim of Zero's version of the Apple method of battery life management. ::)
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I don't see why they would decrease clock speeds on the bike though.
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My 2018 S with PT still shows 15.138 kWh on my Zero app when fully charged after I checked it today. Voltage shows 116 volts. I rode 37 miles the other day and only used 25% of the battery pack when the ambient temperature was 65 degrees. :)
Richard230....are you saying your Zero Phone App shows both kWh capacity AND volts? Mine showed kWh until recently. There was an App update so I downloaded it. Now it only shows volts which is 116 at 100% charge on ‘15 SR.
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My 2018 S with PT still shows 15.138 kWh on my Zero app when fully charged after I checked it today. Voltage shows 116 volts. I rode 37 miles the other day and only used 25% of the battery pack when the ambient temperature was 65 degrees. :)
Richard230....are you saying your Zero Phone App shows both kWh capacity AND volts? Mine showed kWh until recently. There was an App update so I downloaded it. Now it only shows volts which is 116 at 100% charge on ‘15 SR.
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Yes. It shows volts, kWh capacity remaining, allows me to change my custom performance to whatever I want to and does all of the other stuff it always did. :) My daughter has my old 2014 S and her app remains just as capable for that bike. (She downloaded her app when I gave her the bike last fall. Both of us are using an app updated last July. The only change I saw when that app came out was that the battery condition information is now all on one page, whereas it used to be on two pages.
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My 2018 S with PT still shows 15.138 kWh on my Zero app when fully charged after I checked it today. Voltage shows 116 volts. I rode 37 miles the other day and only used 25% of the battery pack when the ambient temperature was 65 degrees. :)
Richard230....are you saying your Zero Phone App shows both kWh capacity AND volts? Mine showed kWh until recently. There was an App update so I downloaded it. Now it only shows volts which is 116 at 100% charge on ‘15 SR.
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Yes. It shows volts, kWh capacity remaining, allows me to change my custom performance to whatever I want to and does all of the other stuff it always did. :) My daughter has my old 2014 S and her app remains just as capable for that bike. (She downloaded her app when I gave her the bike last fall. Both of us are using an app updated last July. The only change I saw when that app came out was that the battery condition information is now all on one page, whereas it used to be on two pages.
My latest app came just a couple of weeks ago. One page for battery and no kWh block. There are several changes. I saved screen shots before/after if anyone’s interested. Losing the kWh capacity block almost feels like a conspiracy[emoji11].
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I can now OFFICIALLY call "BS" on my dealer and Zero's assertion that the reason for the low range readout since the last update was due to cold weather. It was 70 degrees today, and the readout on the range for the bike fully charged was 62 miles. Prior to the flash, it was anywhere from 80 to 95 miles so the new firmware is DEFINITELY screwed up!!!
Or perhaps you are the victim of Zero's version of the Apple method of battery life management. ::)
The bike will be two years old in two months so it is still under full factory warranty. The battery has more than three years and 83,000 miles before it is supposed to be at less than 80% capacity. I am PISSED right now. I will be composing a letter to Zero corporate this weekend which I will be sending via certified USPS mail with a return receipt. I want their OFFICIAL response as to what is going on. No more of this "My dealer said Zero told them..." bullshit.
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I can now OFFICIALLY call "BS" on my dealer and Zero's assertion that the reason for the low range readout since the last update was due to cold weather. It was 70 degrees today, and the readout on the range for the bike fully charged was 62 miles. Prior to the flash, it was anywhere from 80 to 95 miles so the new firmware is DEFINITELY screwed up!!!
Or perhaps you are the victim of Zero's version of the Apple method of battery life management. ::)
The bike will be two years old in two months so it is still under full factory warranty. The battery has more than three years and 83,000 miles before it is supposed to be at less than 80% capacity. I am PISSED right now. I will be composing a letter to Zero corporate this weekend which I will be sending via certified USPS mail with a return receipt. I want their OFFICIAL response as to what is going on. No more of this "My dealer said Zero told them..." bullshit.
JaimeC, Would you say that your acceleration is just as strong or has there been a reduction there as well? In my case I have both reduced range and power. Frankly it’s as if my SR became an S with small battery after the update. Performance loss is most noticeable at higher speeds., say from 60+...lazy.
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I can't say if I've suffered any performance degradation. It still feels as snappy as ever.
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Well, this is rich. They not only removed the kWh reading in the app but also the Ah reading, so now we have no way to determine the state of the battery other than the voltage. And although I admit the voltage is the way to go when determining charge state, i was also able to predict the voltage curve a bit when hypermiling using the kWh/Ah reading... This sucks.
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Well, this is rich. They not only removed the kWh reading in the app but also the Ah reading, so now we have no way to determine the state of the battery other than the voltage. And although I admit the voltage is the way to go when determining charge state, i was also able to predict the voltage curve a bit when hypermiling using the kWh/Ah reading... This sucks.
Perhaps Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app. ::)
Or, maybe the latest updated app is attempting to address (although I can't think of what that might be) the 2018 models and is not playing well with the older Zeros? ???
Maybe the revised app is finally going to let us update our firmware on the 2018 and 2017 models at home as Zero advertises? Now that would be something that I would chance an app update for. ;)
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Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app.
This is strictly marketing doing what it does. An 80W solar panel might give you 60W at its best, because they multiply the open-cell voltage by the short-circuit current to obtain "working power", in spite of the fact it can't come anywhere near doing both at the same time. And can you guess how much storage is available on a "4 terabyte" hard drive? Hint: It ain't 4 terabytes.
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Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app.
This is strictly marketing doing what it does. An 80W solar panel might give you 60W at its best, because they multiply the open-cell voltage by the short-circuit current to obtain "working power", in spite of the fact it can't come anywhere near doing both at the same time. And can you guess how much storage is available on a "4 terabyte" hard drive? Hint: It ain't 4 terabytes.
4TB "unformatted." Once you format it, you have less. Also depends on how you calculate 4TB. To us data professionals, 1K = 1024 bytes, 1M = 1024K, 1Gb = 1024 M, etc. etc. etc.
Marketing people, on the other hand, use "1000" because it makes the numbers look BIGGER on paper. But then again, motorcycle manufacturers do the same thing. They'll advertise HP measured at the crank, not at the rear wheel where it really matters.
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Well, this is rich. They not only removed the kWh reading in the app but also the Ah reading, so now we have no way to determine the state of the battery other than the voltage. And although I admit the voltage is the way to go when determining charge state, i was also able to predict the voltage curve a bit when hypermiling using the kWh/Ah reading... This sucks.
Perhaps Zero no longer wants their customers to notice (using my 2018 Zero S, with PT, as an example) that the advertised 16.6 kWh battery capacity shrinks to a fully-charged 15.138 kWh, when shown on the app. ::)
My 13.0 w/2.8PT reads 14.1kwh after last update. Unfortunately I never even checked to see what it had been before the update.
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Marketing people, on the other hand, use "1000" because it makes the numbers look BIGGER on paper. But then again, motorcycle manufacturers do the same thing. They'll advertise HP measured at the crank, not at the rear wheel where it really matters.
Exactly what I was saying. That's what marketing departments do at ALL companies, in ALL industries, not just Zero. In reality, you pretty much have to follow the industry practice, even if it is delusional -- if you rate your battery pack (or solar panel, or hard drive capacity, etc. etc.) honestly, you'll look bad next to the competition with their shady marketing hype. Even if their hard drive is exactly the same size as yours, their "4TB" drive will look better than your "3.638TB" drive. Honesty doesn't pay in the marketing biz.
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I had an FXS for about 9 months before some idiot slid on some ice and totaled it for me. I took delivery of a new 2017 DSR limited edition a few weeks. I read about these firmware upgrade issues and specifically told my dealer not to update the firmware when it came in. I have no idea what versions came from the factory.
My question is once a newer firmware version is loaded is there no way to revert back to an older version if we don't like the changes the newer version has made. It seems to me that that should be a pretty easy thing to do as long as the dealer still has the older version loaded in whatever tool they use to upload the firmware.
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I had an FXS for about 9 months before some idiot slid on some ice and totaled it for me. I took delivery of a new 2017 DSR limited edition a few weeks. I read about these firmware upgrade issues and specifically told my dealer not to update the firmware when it came in. I have no idea what versions came from the factory.
My question is once a newer firmware version is loaded is there no way to revert back to an older version if we don't like the changes the newer version has made. It seems to me that that should be a pretty easy thing to do as long as the dealer still has the older version loaded in whatever tool they use to upload the firmware.
I think the dealer downloads the firmware directly from the Zero site via the internet, just like you can do at home if you own a 2017 or 2018 Zero and have the latest firmware. So I doubt that they have access to any previous versions. ???
Regarding the constant flood of Zero MMB and BMS firmware revisions, I get the feeling that they have several coders on staff that need to keep busy or they will end up on the bike production line or spare parts department - performing manual labor. :o
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Most software upgrade processes check to see if you're trying to install a newer, same, or older version and prevent the latter two from happening. If Zero's programmers determine that a current version is defective, I can't think of any technical reason why they couldn't change the date/revision indicator on the previous version of the software and make it available again. Nothing would need to change EXCEPT that indicator field the software updater checks prior to installation.
Of course, the correct way for the software updater to work would be to prompt the technician with "This is an OLDER version than you have currently installed. Are you SURE you wish to proceed?" and then just install it anyway if the technician indicates that's what he want's to do.
That's the way it would work if *I* coded the procedure, anyway.
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Most software upgrade processes check to see if you're trying to install a newer, same, or older version and prevent the latter two from happening. If Zero's programmers determine that a current version is defective, I can't think of any technical reason why they couldn't change the date/revision indicator on the previous version of the software and make it available again. Nothing would need to change EXCEPT that indicator field the software updater checks prior to installation.
Of course, the correct way for the software updater to work would be to prompt the technician with "This is an OLDER version than you have currently installed. Are you SURE you wish to proceed?" and then just install it anyway if the technician indicates that's what he want's to do.
That's the way it would work if *I* coded the procedure, anyway.
So, JaimeC (and others), where do things stand now? As for myself there has never been any solution. I even went in for a set of tires over a month ago and they had not heard anything from Zero on the whole Firmware issue discussed here.
My 12.5 continues with its “new†ways; faster indicated usage, shorter estimated range, less performance. Another consistent change is its habit of “recovering†SOC after sitting. After a 25 mile ride it showed 48%!. Came out a few hours later and it was indicating 65%. Never did that before the last Update.
As usual, it runs fine. No other troubles, but it operates differently now and I preferred it the original way. It would seem no one has found a permanent solution. I liked the post about “select the number of bricks†but as mine has been reflashed twice, I think someone would have caught that mistake.
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At this stage I think we're ALL waiting for a proper solution from Zero. :-\
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At this stage I think we're ALL waiting for a proper solution from Zero. :-\
Did you mean to post that on April Fools Day?
Was that mean of me to notice?
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In January, my two-brick 2016 FXS had a charger warranty-replaced and got the troublesome firmware update.
After a full charge, the state of charge dropped 30-40% faster than typical (not really like the n-1 bricks scenario). The last few charge cycles it seemed like it was starting to re-learn its capacity (e.g. last night it had gone 62 city miles and showed 27% left).
But this time I plugged it in, and this morning it read only 11% - but with the green charge-complete light on. Before, it always said "100%" even if I wasn't sure what 100 meant. Is this something other people have seen?
It is showing none of the symptoms like when the old charger died (charges on and off, blinking red light, crackly noises, error code 15). I tried a few times to download the battery logs, but it wouldn't stay connected for more than a minute or two.
Then I saw that the app says it's at 117V! Could it really be all charged up?
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I finally managed to get the bike logs. The battery logs look reasonable, but here's where the MBB lost its little mind. The PackSOC numbers go from 33% to 82% then 0% to 15%.
(BTW that ??? should be three question marks.)
07480 0 DEBUG: Reset: Power-On, External
07481 0 Power On Onboard Charger
07482 0 Calex 720W Charger 0 Connected
07483 0 Calex 1200W Charger 1 Connected
07484 0 DEBUG: Module scheme changed from None mode to Charging mode
07485 0 Module 00 vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
07486 0 Module 01 vmod: 0V, batt curr: 0A
07487 1 Sevcon Turned On
07488 1 WARNING: Max allowed voltage difference is 500mV
07489 1 Module 00 CAN Link Up
07490 1 Module 00 serial: 16sg2527, vmod: 101.27V
07491 05/16/2018 21:22:40 Module 01 CAN Link Up
07492 05/16/2018 21:22:40 Module 01 serial: 16sg2533, vmod: 101.324V
07493 05/16/2018 21:23:53 Sevcon CAN Link Up
07494 05/16/2018 21:23:54 DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.
07495 05/16/2018 21:23:54 Module 00 vmod: 101.259 maxsys: 101.383 minsys: 101.037 diff: 0.346 vcap: 89.937 prechg: 88%
07496 05/16/2018 21:23:54 Module 01 vmod: 101.319 maxsys: 101.383 minsys: 101.037 diff: 0.346 vcap: 89.937 prechg: 88%
07497 05/16/2018 21:23:54 DEBUG: Module 01 Contactor is now Closed
07498 05/16/2018 21:23:54 INFO: Enabling Calex 720W Charger 0
07499 05/16/2018 21:23:54 INFO: Enabling Calex 1200W Charger 1
07500 05/16/2018 21:23:54 INFO: Enabling External Chg 0 Charger 2
07501 05/16/2018 21:23:54 INFO: Enabling External Chg 1 Charger 3
07502 05/16/2018 21:23:54 DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Closed
07503 05/16/2018 21:23:58 0x31 0x01 0xb2 0x0c 0x3a ???
07504 05/16/2018 21:23:58 Low Chassis Isolation 11 KOhms to cell 12
07505 05/16/2018 21:24:01 Charging PackTemp: h 14C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 13C, PackSOC: 33%, Vpack:101.664V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07506 05/16/2018 21:34:01 Charging PackTemp: h 14C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 15C, PackSOC: 32%, Vpack:102.201V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07507 05/16/2018 21:44:01 Charging PackTemp: h 15C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 17C, PackSOC: 31%, Vpack:102.425V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07508 05/16/2018 21:54:01 Charging PackTemp: h 15C, l 14C, AmbTemp: 19C, PackSOC: 31%, Vpack:102.623V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07509 05/16/2018 22:04:01 Charging PackTemp: h 15C, l 15C, AmbTemp: 20C, PackSOC: 32%, Vpack:102.796V, BattAmps: -5, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07510 05/16/2018 22:14:01 Charging PackTemp: h 16C, l 15C, AmbTemp: 21C, PackSOC: 34%, Vpack:103.003V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07511 05/16/2018 22:24:01 Charging PackTemp: h 16C, l 15C, AmbTemp: 22C, PackSOC: 36%, Vpack:103.176V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07512 05/16/2018 22:34:01 Charging PackTemp: h 16C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 22C, PackSOC: 38%, Vpack:103.408V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07513 05/16/2018 22:44:01 Charging PackTemp: h 17C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 23C, PackSOC: 41%, Vpack:103.382V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07514 05/16/2018 22:54:01 Charging PackTemp: h 17C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 23C, PackSOC: 44%, Vpack:103.666V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07515 05/16/2018 23:04:01 Charging PackTemp: h 18C, l 16C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 46%, Vpack:103.886V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07516 05/16/2018 23:14:01 Charging PackTemp: h 18C, l 17C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 49%, Vpack: 104.17V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07517 05/16/2018 23:24:01 Charging PackTemp: h 19C, l 17C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 51%, Vpack:104.559V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07518 05/16/2018 23:34:01 Charging PackTemp: h 19C, l 17C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 54%, Vpack:104.872V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07519 05/16/2018 23:44:01 Charging PackTemp: h 20C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 57%, Vpack:105.275V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07520 05/16/2018 23:54:01 Charging PackTemp: h 20C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 60%, Vpack:105.786V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07521 05/17/2018 00:04:01 Charging PackTemp: h 20C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 63%, Vpack:106.268V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07522 05/17/2018 00:14:01 Charging PackTemp: h 21C, l 18C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 65%, Vpack:106.838V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07523 05/17/2018 00:24:01 Charging PackTemp: h 21C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 68%, Vpack:107.415V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07524 05/17/2018 00:34:01 Charging PackTemp: h 21C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 71%, Vpack: 108.02V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07525 05/17/2018 00:44:01 Charging PackTemp: h 21C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 73%, Vpack:108.582V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07526 05/17/2018 00:54:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 75%, Vpack:109.067V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07527 05/17/2018 01:04:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 27C, PackSOC: 77%, Vpack:109.581V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07528 05/17/2018 01:14:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 24C, PackSOC: 79%, Vpack:110.009V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07529 05/17/2018 01:24:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 25C, PackSOC: 82%, Vpack:110.531V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07530 05/17/2018 01:34:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 19C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 0%, Vpack: 111.08V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07531 05/17/2018 01:44:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 1%, Vpack:111.488V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07532 05/17/2018 01:54:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 3%, Vpack: 112.07V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07533 05/17/2018 02:04:01 Charging PackTemp: h 22C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 5%, Vpack:112.669V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07534 05/17/2018 02:14:01 Charging PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 7%, Vpack:113.171V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07535 05/17/2018 02:24:01 Charging PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 8%, Vpack:113.744V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07536 05/17/2018 02:34:01 Charging PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 26C, PackSOC: 12%, Vpack:114.228V, BattAmps: -3, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07537 05/17/2018 02:44:01 Charging PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 28C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:114.676V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07538 05/17/2018 02:54:01 Charging PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 27C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:115.434V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07539 05/17/2018 03:04:01 Charging PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 28C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:115.951V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07540 05/17/2018 03:14:01 Charging PackTemp: h 23C, l 20C, AmbTemp: 28C, PackSOC: 15%, Vpack:116.628V, BattAmps: -4, Mods: 11, MbbChgEn: Yes, BmsChgEn: No
07541 05/17/2018 03:19:25 Entering Charge Standby Mode
07542 05/17/2018 03:19:25 INFO: Disabling Calex 720W Charger 0
07543 05/17/2018 03:19:25 INFO: Disabling Calex 1200W Charger 1
07544 05/17/2018 03:19:25 INFO: Disabling External Chg 0 Charger 2
07545 05/17/2018 03:19:25 INFO: Disabling External Chg 1 Charger 3
07546 05/17/2018 03:19:30 Module 00 vmod: 116.695V, batt curr: 0A
07547 05/17/2018 03:19:30 Module 01 vmod: 116.624V, batt curr: 0A
07548 05/17/2018 03:19:30 Sevcon Turned Off
07549 05/17/2018 03:19:30 DEBUG: Module 01 Contactor is now Open
07550 05/17/2018 03:19:30 DEBUG: Module 00 Contactor is now Open
07551 05/17/2018 09:08:03 Calex 720W Charger 0 Disconnected
07552 05/17/2018 09:08:03 Calex 1200W Charger 1 Disconnected
07553 05/17/2018 09:08:03 Leaving Charge Standby Mode
07554 05/17/2018 09:08:03 Power Off Onboard Charger
07555 05/17/2018 09:08:03 Module 00 vmod: 115.86V, batt curr: 0A
07556 05/17/2018 09:08:03 Module 01 vmod: 115.947V, batt curr: 0A
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Concise question:
Do people with The Firmware Bug find their SOC reads "100%" when fully charged to ~116 V, or is anyone getting some lower number?
I.e. is my problem something else?
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Concise question:
Do people with The Firmware Bug find their SOC reads "100%" when fully charged to ~116 V, or is anyone getting some lower number?
I.e. is my problem something else?
Just checked mine after charging from totally dead last night. It reads 100% and 116v. Yet it showed 50% at 30 miles on my test run yesterday. Up to that point I had not gone over 50mph and stayed in Eco. It was a steady backroad ride. When I got back into town I stopped and started on surface streets another six miles before it went to 49%. Eventually I got on the freeway at 35% and it went down to 2% in less than 10 miles. Due to traffic I stayed at 55-60 mph. Now I was at 67 miles. A mile of street riding later I had 4%. So it goes up sometimes when the speed slows. At 00 I switched to Range and it showed 2.2 miles. Ultimately it stopped at 73.3.
This from a 2015 SR 12.5. I should have been able to go almost that far at 70mph but this is really just city range now. Walkers post showing a letter from Zero says “rest assured...â€no one has lost range...well, I am going to make two more 100-0 test runs under different conditions to prove otherwise and get back to y’all.
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Concise question:
Do people with The Firmware Bug find their SOC reads "100%" when fully charged to ~116 V, or is anyone getting some lower number?
I.e. is my problem something else?
Mine reads Vpack:116.611V with the newest firmware while charging and floores at Vpack:116.144V when i turn it on a day later.
My range is reduced a bit since last year (at least 10%), but the bike still takes roughly the same charge. so maybe its belt tension oder something that is reducing my range.. Charging looks fine for me. Had the v52 and now v53 firmware update.
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Thanks a bunch, y'all.
So I did a bunch of short trips at 00% - carrying a charging cable and checking voltage before and after - and then mid-ride it popped back up to 89%. So I guess this was unrelated to the new firmware - hopefully just a one-off glitch.
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So it is Sunday night and I have completed the last of my three planned tests. I reported on No.1 already. 73.3 miles until totally dead. No.2 was a 70mph steady run. This time it was down to 5% after only 39 miles! Had no choice but to run surface streets after that. I eeked out 53 miles before chickening out a couple miles after hitting 00.
Today was No.3. The intent was to just ride along with traffic in the slow lane 60-65. I was able to continue to 49 miles and 2%. I ended the ride at 54.5 miles, 3.2 miles after hitting 00. Half a mile remained of indicated range.
I took photos of the dash so I have “the evidence.†This is a ‘15 SR with 10,000 miles. It now goes a little over 50 miles on the freeway or will be dead at 73.3 miles in relatively slow (45-50mph) riding. Zero says “rest assured (no range loss due to updates)â€. I beg to differ.
- George
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Update to my post of 5/27/18:
I prepared a detailed email for my dealer on 29th and was called on phone right away and asked to bring it in. The latest update was installed. I didn’t notice any difference. What DID happen is the odometer stopped (trip meters continued to work ok.). I actually never noticed the main Odo because I typically look at it only when I record my miles at the top of the month. It was recorded 10,904 on June 1. This past Friday I was riding around and realized it wasn’t changing and showed 10,904. Went home and looked at my paper log and saw it was 10904 as of 6/1. Naturally I assumed it was caused by the upgrade so I called the dealer Saturday (6/23) and it was as if he was expecting me. Others had been having odometer issues too. He said something about setting the bike’s Model manually (in the computer.).
The Odo came back with about 500 extra miles (equal to my estimate). But here’s the kicker:
On the ride home I was seeing usage rates similar to what I had before the first-ever update over a year ago.
I have posted on The Firmware specific thread too. Guys, things might be looking up for us. It wouldn’t surprise me if the manual Model entry is the Key to all this because my SR was performing as an S with the 9.4 battery...less power and range almost by the book...for an S 9.4.
A local new friend had just bought a 2016 SR with 1,000 miles. It’s odometer wasn’t working. He thought it didn’t have the range it should. Got that Odo going, popped up to 2,100 miles and he got a big increase in range (more as advertised).
My bike has underperformed for over a year and received three updates to no avail. Only the last one killed the Odo. If that was due to not entering Model then I can’t explain the prior problems but the latest fix is the first to show promising results.
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