ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: atldinan3 on December 20, 2017, 04:05:26 AM
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So I just went to update the firmware on my 2017 Zero DS, and the app says I have to take it to a dealer for the update. ???? I live out of range from the nearest Zero dealer, and the ONLY reason I purchased a new model was so that I could do the firmware updates on my own. Thats what they advertise. So now, 4 months in to my purchase, I have to take it to a dealer???
I feel totally F*%ked by Zero. I hope I’m misunderstanding something. I don’t have any way to get it to a dealer (unless someone has successfully crammed one in the back of a VW Golf!!). >:(
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My 2018 Zero owner's manual doesn't mention anything about owner-installed firmware updates. Perhaps one of their marketing types became confused and said the wrong thing in their ads. :o Also, the latest app for my new Zero doesn't seem to have an option for owner-downloads. ??? I also don't recall that being a feature listed in their 2018 model description on Zero's website.
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Ya, I'm trying to find documentation on this. It's not in my 2017 manual, and its not on their website. In fact, the screen-caps on the app page of their website don't have the Firmware Update button that mine does (1.4.0(55)).
But I'm certain that I was told that at-home sw updates were one of the landmark features of the 2017 models. I think it was even discussed here. It truly was the key decision point I used regarding spending more (quite a bit) to get a new (6.5kWh) vs a used (13kWh) bike.
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I got the same go to the dealer for update on my app as well. 2017 DSR
I was thinking there was a intermediate firmware update I didn't install and that was the reason. Perhaps not though... I just saw that go to the dealer the other day for the first time.
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You're also going to have to get to a dealer for the 600mi service, and motor controller recalibration (commissioning). Don't forget that! There is no reasonable way to do it without a shop that has the proprietary software.
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The Zero App on my IPhone shows Firmware Update for 2017 and later models. I have App version 1.40
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This is the second time the app has told me to go to the dealer. The first was a week after I had the 600 mile service done and firmware updated. Supposedly was an app glitch. Now about a Month or more ago I am seeing an update again and go to dealer. They did tell me that the bike could be updated from the App and thats how they advertised it. But has not happened as of yet. I don’t remember anything says that it will only let you know that there is an update. From the looks of it i don’t think it will now. Since none of us that I have seen have been able to. We only get notification. At least from the email we got about the winter storage from Zero they say firmware updates are free. Doesn’t help if your dealer is far away however.
Here is a screen shot of the App that says you can update with the 2017 on up bikes
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171220/71fcfca8f815fd95f9894f04be54cd57.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You're also going to have to get to a dealer for the 600mi service, and motor controller recalibration (commissioning). Don't forget that! There is no reasonable way to do it without a shop that has the proprietary software.
Ummm, WHAT?????? This uncovers a second lie... I was told that there is no break-in service required!! Again, I don't have any way to get the bike to the dealer, and absolutely would not have purchased a vehicle that dictated impossible-to-meet requirements.
God f*&kn da*mnit! I feel so lied to and cheated. I'd return this thing today if I could. I don't know how I got taken for so many lies.
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Atldinan3 relax a bit first. Yes, if you pull up the 2017 version of Zero's web page under features it talks about the app and under the sub "details" it says you can do your own updates with the app.
Try to email them and see what they say.
As an older fart I hate wireless "talking" I suggested a simple usb port that could have downloaded to a thumb drive from their website. That way you could go back to an older version if there was a problem.
Of course I don't know what changes as time goes on. It's just a battery powered motor that moves people down the road. Don't let it charge too high or low, go faster when you turn the throttle more and that's about it. I know that there is actually much more going on but you get my meaning. What changes from when the bike left the factory?
Good luck and if the bike is riding fine right now don't stress if you don't update for a while.
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Ya, I’m trying to calm a bit, however I’m really struggling with feeling violated. In my mind, the essential benefit of the bargain on which I made my purchase decision was untrue. Terms such as material misrepresentation (borderline fraudulent), and nullification of the benefit of the bargain come to mind. I truly would not have purchased the bike if I was properly informed that, a) I had to bring to dealer for routine sw updates, and/or b) the bike required break-in & similar routine maintenance. EITHER of those were dealbreakers. And both were assured to me to not be required, yet both are.
Indeed the bike runs fine as it is. However, the fact remains that at some point I am going to figure out how to drag this thing to a dealer. It’s not fitting in the back of my VW, and I don’t have any local friends with trailers. (knot in stomach returns). I’m looking at a supreme PITA that I would happily have NOT paid a premium to have to endure. I really wish I had just bought back my old ’94 K75 for $2,500, instead of getting fooled into paying over $10k more (including dealer fee’s, taxes, etc) to deal with the above.
Finally, my contrasting datapoint is my Nissan Leaf. I’ve had it for 4 years and 30k miles and have NEVER had to take it to the dealer. No sw updates, no routine maintenance. Absolutely nothing. Thats what I thought I was getting with a Zero, which is why I went against recommendations and bought one out-of-range from a dealer.
Anyway, I’m cooling down. Thanks for letting me vent. My biggest concern at the moment is actually that my anger and outrage could morph into resentment and disgust. I think many people who participate in a forum like this understand the emotional connection between man & machine (so to speak). So it saddens me to watch what I fear could become a toxic contamination of my personal relationship with my Zero. :'(
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The only thing on the Zero that doesn't require attention that does on an ICE bike is the Engine.
Even there, the motor, BMS, charger etc. should be verified as operating properly
Other than that, it is the same as any other motorcycle. You have to make sure that the all bearings
are seated properly, front end and swing arm. Belt is tight. All bolts and screws are at proper torque.
Brake fluid is correct, lights etc.
It states in the owner's manual that it should be serviced at initial 600 miles and at least every 12 months.
Manual also stated that failure to update firmware could be grounds for voiding your warranty.
They do mention over the air firmware updates in this press release, but, I don't see it in the manual
http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/press-releases/oct-17-2017-2018-model-line.php
Manufacturers announce things all the time that don't make it to the end user.
As far as not being able to take it to the dealer because you have a VW Gold,
I have towed my motorcycles allover the country using my Honda Civic Hybrid.
I can't imagine that your Golf is any more anemic than my Civic. I didn't notice
where you are in the world but I can't imagine that there isn't power between
you and the dealership. Here is a link for a hitch for the VW Golf for well under $100
https://www.homedepot.com/p/CURT-Class-1-Trailer-Hitch-for-Volkswagen-Golf-11654/205630661?cm_mmc=Shopping|THD|google|&mid=stzcD2aLN|dc_mtid_8903tb925190_pcrid_195274179091_pkw__pmt__product_205630661_slid_&gclid=CjwKCAiAsejRBRB3EiwAZft7sJhVhNgjEAymtA3hYAMa0W4s_2_jK5lj00V09rLHtgDrZQjveqeJ6BoCEeEQAvD_BwE
If you don't wish to get a hitch and buy / rent a trailer, Take a day or two and
ride it. I rode my stock 13KW 2016 SR from Hollywood Electrics to Vegas ( just under 300 miles ).
It took longer than it would have if I was driving a conventional vehicle but with planning
I made it without ever running out of juice.
Quit whining and ride
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My 2018 Zero was serviced two weeks ago and I was told that I have the latest app and firmware. Here is what my app says about this:
"App Version 1.6.50 (21)"
"OS Version 5.1.1 (22)"
"Expire Firmware Check Windows" - whatever that means. ::) But I did attempt to check the latest firmware via the app, but I got tired watching the spinning wheel and gave up. ???
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Most dealers simply don't ride Zero bikes nor do they know what they're talking about.
Yes, there is a break-in period on 2016 Zero S/DS and probably on the newer model years as well. The procedure can be done while you wait and should take no more than 20 minutes, and further the policy is very clear that this required periodic maintenance is of no cost to to the owner for the lifetime of the vehicle.
If the dealership person claims there's no maintenance then they simply are uninformed.
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I also bought a Zero this year like you. I had to do my research before I did. I read the maintenance intervals in the downloadable manual on there site to get an idea of what they require. All made sense but the timing and commissioning. So I asked. And they said it should be done at the 600 mile check or sometime shortly after. After the initial one its something like every 14000 miles. On my bike it was off slightly by the readouts but i didn’t notice a difference after they calibrated it. From reading and talking to the dealer it is an important maintenance since the new IPM motors can run hotter and other odd things can happen. Think of it almost like a valve adjustment. Im a bit disappointed in the fact the last two updates are not updatable per the app as you are. That does kinda suck. So maybe Zero has a good answer. I haven’t asked myself yet.
Like any vehicle maintenance is needed. And all on the zero can be done by the owner except for one. That is the timing and commissioning. For now the firmware is also one but maybe the app will work like it should soon and that will not require a dealer.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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If the dealership person claims there's no maintenance then they simply are uninformed.
What about all the enthusiasts that jump up and down yelling about how there is no maintenance?
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If the dealership person claims there's no maintenance then they simply are uninformed.
What about all the enthusiasts that jump up and down yelling about how there is no maintenance?
"all the enthusiasts" whom? Being honest, there is regular maintenance the same as any moving vehicle with wear parts. I don't see how someone riding a motorcycle for long distances would miss this.
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If the dealership person claims there's no maintenance then they simply are uninformed.
What about all the enthusiasts that jump up and down yelling about how there is no maintenance?
"all the enthusiasts" whom? Being honest, there is regular maintenance the same as any moving vehicle with wear parts. I don't see how someone riding a motorcycle for long distances would miss this.
Not every motorcycle owner is in to maintenance. My son-in-law has been riding motorcycles for 30 years and doesn't believe in maintenance. :'( He says it is more fun to have something break and then try figure out what went wrong and attempt to fix it as cheaply as possible. :o He currently owns and rides three motorcycles, all in various states of disrepair, but still they start and are somehow able to travel long distances when needed. As someone who spends much of his time thinking about what needs to be maintained next on my six motorcycles, that philosophy just kind of rubs me the wrong way. However, I guess it works for him. It has been at least 5 years now since his last crash. ::)
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Hi guys,
So am I to gather from this thread that the Zero advertisement of firmware updates via their mobile app is incorrect. I’m a perspective buyer and been monitoring this forum for about two months just to get an idea of what all is involved with owning a Zero. It’s been a wealth of information and I do appreciate all the topics covered. I am very close to deciding to purchase early spring, but no one is chiming in that OTA works if you do this or that which is sort of concerning for me. The nearest Zero dealer to me is 200 miles away and I would be counting on the firmware updates over the air. After all that is what Zero advertises for their 2017, 18 models, correct. 🧐
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I wouldn't call it "incorrect", exactly. "Vaporware" at this point. I have no doubt Zero sincerely intended to offer, and still intends to offer, that feature. I wouldn't hold my breath, though, and I wouldn't base any buying decisions on it. On the other hand, I don't think I'd base any buying decisions on it anyhow. The bikes run quite well on existing firmware, and Zero shows no sign of providing a more accurate SoC indication, which is the one remaining thing I really want the firmware to do at this point.
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Do Zero monitor this forum? Why can't we get a simple official answer to the firmware update?
It is the most professional Zero related forum, and we still base our answers on speculations.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Do Zero monitor this forum? Why can't we get a simple official answer to the firmware update?
It is the most professional Zero related forum, and we still base our answers on speculations.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Perhaps Zero received some "push-back" from their dealers who would prefer that you visit their service departments more often, not less often. ::) Of course, it could also be that their owner-installed firmware updates idea was a concept that they just couldn't manage to work out. ???
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Perhaps Zero received some "push-back" from their dealers who would prefer that you visit their service departments more often, not less often. ::) Of course, it could also be that their owner-installed firmware updates idea was a concept that they just couldn't manage to work out. ???
Does any of our local dealers prefer we visit them with a Zero Motorcycle vehicle needing service, truly? I find that to be amazing when my local dealer misplaces the shop computer which has the "Zero software" on it, and the other Zero Motorcycles authorized dealers I've visited on the road have bungled service every time. Talking to a KTM (non-electric) motorbike company enthusiast today they mentioned the "good old days" when KTM service through dealerships was new and there were similar problems to what I describe here about trying to get accurate and timely service completed on a Zero Motorcycles vehicle.
Would any Zero Motorcycles dealership representative care to comment here, are your shops making money off service, would you rather the owners just fix their own minor problems or not?
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I have been buying motorcycles for 56 years and I think I have developed some thoughts about what it takes to sell motorcycles and stay in business while doing so. Plus, I have spent some time during recent years talking to the owner of the BMW shop that I frequent. Motorcycle dealerships don't make much money just selling "units". As an example, recently I was told that KTM dealers only make $400 profit on each KTM 390 Duke that they sell. Larger bikes pull in more money of course, but it costs a huge amount to keep a motorcycle shop open every month, thanks to salaries, property rent, paying taxes and various fees, complying with government and franchise regulations and a lot of other "overhead" stuff that is not so obvious to anyone but the owner and their bookkeeper. Just selling bikes is not going to be enough to keep the doors open without some additional sources of income.
So where does the money come from to keep a motorcycle business open? Profit selling the "units" is certainly a part of it, but the shop has to split the profit with their sales staff, who works (at least partially) on commission. Sales of parts and accessories used to bring in some decent money, but now with internet sales of just about everything, not so much anymore. The real steady "cash cow" is the service department, sometimes referred to as the "backroom". Motorcycle dealers in the SF Bay Area typically charge about $130 an hour for their mechanics' labor. My understanding is that money typically gets split about 50/50 between the shop owner and the technician. If they can keep service customers coming in nonstop, which is what happens at most shops in California (just try to get a service appointment within a few days of your request). I can't recall seeing any service department technicians standing around doing nothing - except maybe the service "advisors". So service departments are the only real source of steady income for a motorcycle shop and they need to make the most of it. Therefore I doubt any dealership would want to discourage anyone from bring in their motorcycle for service or repair - even a Zero. And if they do, they are just shooting themselves and their profit margin in the foot.
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The MBB firmware installed on my 2018 S is: revision 1536, board revision 125, Model W. ???