ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Doug S on February 15, 2018, 09:30:43 PM
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Actually, it's not really "getting" old. I'm pretty tired of it.
Three weeks ago tomorrow, Friday 1/26/2018, I was enjoying a nice ride home from work, thinking pleasant thoughts about the weekend ahead, when my bike lost power. I was in the fast lane of the freeway, on a long overpass with virtually no left shoulder and a 90-foot drop to the San Diego riverbed below, when the power cut out in an instant and the dashboard went dead. Long story short, I managed to coast to the end of the overpass where there was a shoulder, got off the freeway safely and succeeded in not dying.
The bike is still in the shop, at the San Diego Zero retailer who I'm not going to name. They replaced the MBB (twice, actually, since Zero seemed to ship the first one unprogrammed). They replaced the DC-DC converter. They replaced the PCB in the battery module (I believe that's the BMS?). As of yesterday (Wednesday, 2/14/2018), the dashboard lights up but still no power (motor doesn't run).
Mostly I'm just venting. Yes, we're still early adopters, and that can get expensive. Yes, it's still an immature technology -- sure, EVs have been around for 100 years, but the advanced electronics to control them are quite young. But this is ridiculous. I haven't gotten the bill yet, but I'm going to have to pay for the new MBB, the new DC-DC converter, probably not the BMS (it's under warranty since Zero rebuilt the monolith not too long ago), and of course, the labor to replace all the high-dollar hardware. Nobody has any idea how much it's going to cost me or, more importantly, how long I'm going to be without my bike before I even have the privilege of paying the bill.
But I'm also just searching for ideas to improve the situation. We lost Patrick Truchon because he got fed up. I know others have bailed without saying so in public. I never thought I'd say it, but I'm getting close, too. I toy with just springing for a new 2018 SR, but I haven't seen all that much to think the hardware has improved significantly in terms of reliability, and the service from Zero would be the same thing all over again. (Plus, I'd still have to get the old bike running anyhow, since a bike that isn't running has virtually no value.) The local dealers don't have any idea what to do with the bikes, and Zero doesn't seem to care much. Although we have a very diligent, energetic and bright community full of engineers and talented people, there really isn't much any of us can do about it, either. We had to rely on Burton to even create a wiring diagram, there's no way we'd be able to do anything about shoddy PCB design or crappy firmware.
I keep having visions of an open-source electric motorcycle, a repository-based sort of thing. Let the community design the bike to fit OUR needs, and improve the bike as problems come to light in the real world. We have resources and a lot of knowledge and enthusiasm -- I'd donate my PCB and firmware design skills, and I bet a lot of other people would too. But then again, every open-source project I've come into contact with sux pretty bad. Just the other day SourceTree "upgraded", I lost access to all my repositories and had to do everything from the website, then they "upgraded" again to fix the problem. On my Android phone, VLC recently "upgraded", I lost all my playlists, then they "upgraded" again and (sorta) recovered my playlists. There's no way I'd tolerate that sort of behavior in a motorcycle.
Like I said, mostly I'm just venting. I don't think there's any solution except for time...Zero's got to evolve, get bigger, and develop a customer service department with some real horsepower. They need to bring the dealers up to speed, and continue developing more reliable, easy-to-service hardware.
But if anybody has any thoughts?????
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I've seen interviews with Bosch big wigs and they see this as a problem and they want to be the brains to your EV. Everything is so specialized now that the best minds get grouped together and monopolize that field.
My guess is either 2019 brings a whole new design from Zero or...
My other two cents is there is not nearly enough protection for the components from weather and vibrations. Marine level epoxy treatments and isolating rubber or silicon mounts for a more robust foundation. Then work out a program to give you the ride you want with the always good idea of a nice margin of error on either side. After that leave it the hell alone. A flash drive with 5 years worth of log storage that you swap out or reset.
I removed my later comments as they would not be well received.
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Doug, what year and model of Zero do you have? (Just curious.)
I keep thinking that Zero is just hanging on with their current design in the hopes that they will be bought out by some large established motorcycle company (like maybe Suzuki) that wants to get into the electric motorcycle market without having to do all of the engineering and design R&D needed to do so. ???
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Very sorry to hear it Doug. What year is your bike?
I just bought an '18 SR from Triumph San Diego, and the dealership has been a lot more responsive than Zero has. I agree with you that Zero's customer service could use a little bolstering. The growth and challenges Zero faces are huge; hopefully they don't just sell out to one of the big ICE-age bike manufactories. (Although that could conceivably result in better service for us in the long term.)
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It's a 2014 SR. It's been through a lot, and has 39,000 miles on it.
And calamarichris, I didn't want to mention names, but there's only the one dealer in San Diego. They may be "responsive", but they don't know what they're doing with this electric thingie. Of course they won't (and can't) admit that, but it's true.
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Sorry for your trouble Doug. I've noticed your bike there a couple times over the years when I had to get mine repaired as well. When you're back online, we should connect for a ride. I'm near you in Mt Helix area.
I'm still batting the 'who knows what the firmware is going to do today' bugs, but my current issue is limited to not knowing how much is in a charge or when it's going to limit power. The dealer, while nice guys, seems to be at Zero's mercy. They've pretty much gone silent with me and I don't feel like pushing any more.
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It's a 2014 SR. It's been through a lot, and has 39,000 miles on it.
And calamarichris, I didn't want to mention names, but there's only the one dealer in San Diego. They may be "responsive", but they don't know what they're doing with this electric thingie. Of course they won't (and can't) admit that, but it's true.
Nuts, sorry man. I find myself in SD-Triumph's predicament at work at least once a week: Sorry, I can't help you because the people at my company with our answer don't care enough to respond to emails or voicemails, but of course this is only my internal monologue because I can't say these words without making my whole company look completely inept.
Is yours a yellow SR or S? If so, I was admiring it while the dealership tech was out test-riding my bike before delivery. (Ahem, I had a good 20 minutes to admire that yellow bike, which is one reason I remember it so well. Can't blame the tech, riding that bike is hella blast.)
I'd be interested in going for a ride with you guys sometime now that the sun is shining and my femur is at last knitting.
I really hope Zero comes through for you.
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I toy with just springing for a new 2018 SR, but I haven't seen all that much to think the hardware has improved significantly in terms of reliability, and the service from Zero would be the same thing all over again.
I have been thinking about this more recently myself. But I haven't been convinced my MY13 SR with MY14 SR motor and size6 controller with my now unsupported MY13 battery is worth giving up yet. I feel like I have learned its quirks and getting a new bike and having to relearn those quirks isn't worth it.
For example. I unplug the bike from charging, wait a second, then start her up. If my warning light blinks really fast I need to turn it off and let it sit for a literal minute before trying again. If it throws another error I know it wants to be plugged back in for a minute, then unplugged, then wait a minute, then start it. Seriously ... this is the level of nonce I have developed with my bike but it has allowed me to commute 40k+ miles.
Then I think about my winter range ... ugh ... I have to go 50mph in a 65 when the temps drop to 15F in order to get into work and avoid the bikes battery dying with 50% SOC (voltage at 93 min at highway speeds by the time my 26mile commute is up) ... and I think about the times I have ridden two up on my bike in 35 degree weather and needed to go 55mph to ensure I get home ... in summer the same commute I can go 75-80 and never have an issue.
Part of me wants a lot more battery, a more reliable product, and something I can fix myself ... the other part of me wants me to ride my current bike into the ground and see what is around after that.
We had to rely on Burton to even create a wiring diagram, there's no way we'd be able to do anything about shoddy PCB design or crappy firmware.
There are so many people in this community who actively give so others can have peace of mind, though I appreciate the call out. I need to finish the last wire loom diagram I was sent but I have been busy installing hardwood flooring in my house as my GF is moving in soon :D (the same one who rode two up with me on my bike [if you seen it you know that is crazy] in winter)
I keep having visions of an open-source electric motorcycle, a repository-based sort of thing.
I feel like if someone came out with a frame / fairing system which you could order to be made from a certain number of vendors and then there was a list of "supported layouts" where people had gone through and done the work of coding controllers, bms, etc it could be done and not be crap. Or simply build off an existing frame and make CNC files for the mod parts required to convert it for example and then grab off the shelf motors / controllers / batteries / etc. (I feel the DIY crew likely are the best source for a "standardized" open source solution)
That said it is hard to compete with over 63 million in funding when it comes to making a good motor which is compact and powerful enough to meet even a Zero S and get the same range.
This makes me feel buying from a company that at least uses off the shelf parts would be a smarter long-term game than one that makes everything and they are the only supplier / support for said product.
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Just dreaming:
Tesla buys Zero and brings their massive knowledge to bear. Would you buy a Tesla "Model S" motorcycle, that could use their charging network? I would.
Or if you prefer, NOT dreaming:
Harley livewire is coming in 2019 or so with massive resources, a dealer in every town, and too much to lose to release a crap product.
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Sorry, I'm new here...
Did the Victory/Brammo Empulses have reliability issues too?
I can't find if anyone purchased them after Victory's demise.
Maybe the bigwigs at Zero should make their gear open source. Their issues hurt the industry.
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Just dreaming:
Tesla buys Zero and brings their massive knowledge to bear. Would you buy a Tesla "Model S" motorcycle, that could use their charging network? I would.
Or if you prefer, NOT dreaming:
Harley livewire is coming in 2019 or so with massive resources, a dealer in every town, and too much to lose to release a crap product.
Neither seems very likely. Tesla is already VERY successful selling cars and their mission is to get us on Mars, not on motorcycles.
And Harley been taking a beating lately. Their Livewire has been about as successful as carbonated milk, and they've been saying just 18 more months since 2014. And the only reason they're still around is because they've been milking nostalgia for brazenly ICE-age, obsolete Soviet-tractor technology for the last 20 years.
Zero is currently doing it better than anyone else. Will they cash out? It seems likely, but maybe they'll stick it out and become the next Honda. I've been burnt by Honda and I've known many who were burnt by BMW. Both of these were mature companies who had plenty of time to perfect technology that is over a century old.
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Doug, thanks for opening a thread giving San Diego owners an opportunity to commiserate. My ‘15 SR just turned 10,000 miles. Due to the appearance of two bulges in the front tire, I opted for new tires. Few things can make a bike feel new again than replacing both tires. But at $400 installed, the bike cost me 4 cents a mile just for rubber. Compare to about 1 cent for a car these days. Motorcycling has always been expensive.
It would be interesting to find out the odometer readings on Zeros. I’m guessing yours will be one of the “high mile†bikes at 39k. Congratulations on that.
I had no problems other than several charger failures until installing the latest Firmware by request of Zero. Since that time, range and power have been less. It spent two weeks in the shop gathering data to send to the factory. We have been waiting two weeks and have heard nothing. They say the firmware should not have changed anything. So I ask “what was the point of the upload then?†It now takes 2% of the battery for every mile ridden much over 60mph. After a 25 mile ride it can gain 5-6% from sitting awhile. It no longer has the “scared cat†acceleration above 60. Other than that it’s perfect.
Thankfully it has never just quit somewhere.
I am not an engineer but I’ve ridden for fifty years. My reasons for trying a Zero were more about sticking my toe into a new EV I could afford to buy outright as a prelude to getting an electric car. I think I will hold off on that now for a few more years.
If anyone wants a like-new looking SR, at a fair price, I’m ready to pass it along.
- George in Spring Valley
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Sorry, I'm new here...
Did the Victory/Brammo Empulses have reliability issues too?
I can't find if anyone purchased them after Victory's demise.
Maybe the bigwigs at Zero should make their gear open source. Their issues hurt the industry.
Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk
Not claiming to be an authority, or having as large a data set compared to the Zero riders in this forum, but I don't have the impression that Empulse rider complaints were as frequent or severe. Of course you could argue that there are fewer Brammos on the road, so there would be fewer complaints overall.
Complaints about dealer comfort working with unfamiliar technology? Yes, that's to be expected. But rejoice! Zero hasn't yet sold its motorcycle operations to another company that is stingy with parts and doesn't seem to want to honor your warranty.
Complaints about the vehicle turtling or losing power dangerously during highway operation? If that happened, it wasn't nearly as common as reported here. The closest I've come so far in over 10,000 miles on my Empulse R has been a "BATT COLD, REGEN OFF" message on the dashboard at the start of my ride. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with the bike's behavior below 6% SOC.
Complaints about firmware updates making the bike behave worse than before the update? What Brammo firmware updates? ;)
Complaints about reliability? Without speaking for all Brammo riders, I've experienced the following problems:
* one recall to replace the transmission oil breather tube that leaked oil onto the tear frame and tire
* one replacement of the dashboard due to a display glitch and a button that was difficult to press
* numerous harmless error codes reported on the dashboard, the most dire of which required me to turn the bike off and wait a few seconds to turn it back on
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/5eaf169c90c35c2515d4b3c254926703.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180217/8d29591eab0ec3d44e563bc12be50384.jpg)
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My 2014 Empulse is still going strong with zero issues, 10k miles. I do have to clean and lube the chain and change the oil every now and then. Sadly, the 2013 Zero I had barely made 2k miles before it entered the shop and never returned.
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Interesting with the Brammos thanks for sharing. As a non programing guy I've never thought firmware needed to be changed. No new things are going on. Same speed, torque, and chargers as when it left the factory.
Companies wanting to lower your access to your full battery (ala Apple) to make sure it lasts past warranty is a concern for any EV owner. I hope we don't have to deal with that as a confirmed issue as that could get ugly.
That being said it's 72F in Atlanta and just did about 85 miles from two riding legs and there is still no better or more relaxing ride than an electric motorcycle.
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Latest: They want to ship it up to Scotts Valley to rebuild the monolith, after the dealer has replaced the MBB, the DC-DC converter, and the BMS. It's clearly a case of "replace everything until it works" at this point. I've told the shop to hold off until Zero confirms that they're going to ship the bike and perform the work under warranty and at their expense, since the monolith was rebuilt by them less than a year ago. Of course, they can't confirm anything until Tuesday, since the factory is closed this weekend and the dealership is closed on Monday.
@Ashveratu and Gborgan: My bike had no major expenses at 10k, either (though the rear shock was about to fail for the first time). But 10k doesn't qualify as 'reliable'. The automotive standard has long been 100k miles before major expenses, and honestly, that's pretty easy these days. Again, I realize it's a young company and a non-mature technology. It still hurts to get bitten, and I (an EE, remember, with some insight into the industry) remain convinced that far better can be achieved with the technology of the day. That's why the hardware and firmware failures are so unforgivable.
But I agree with Burton. My first and still main instinct is to ride the bike until it can't be ridden any more, in the name of beta-testing if nothing else. Zero needs to learn what makes their bikes less reliable in the high-mileage cases, and that can only be done in the field, probably by customers. In addition, I do believe that fixing the old stuff is almost always cheaper than buying new stuff, so that's what I"m going to pursue. When I'm convinced there's not a nickel's worth of value in the bike, I'll be comfortable disposing of it and getting a new one, or maybe it'll be time to retire from motorcycling entirely.
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Burton and Doug I would love to see you guys who really ride a lot of miles sell your bike to a newbie to the electric world who will probably do an average amount of riding and let you guys who really pile on the miles get the latest technology. The new longbrick bikes have a lighter and simpler monolith as there is only one parallel connection instead of 3, and 4 less cell box side plates. Heck you guys are still riding on the fast ace suspension I think, right? You can carry a lot more weight on the new suspension and it still feels nicer. Worth it alone if you guys take heavy things or passengers like I heard you say Burton.
I like wearing things out too. I'll have to take a picture of my Alpinestar boots that I've worn everyday for 4 years now. I've had to add hot glue to the soles many times as the hole in the ground let the pavement wear holes in my socks a few times. I'd order new ones but Alpinestars discontinued the model and I just like them so much.
But I am totally recommending both you guys try to make it through to early fall if you can, but then be the first to get a 2019 so you both can have the most battery to get through the winter. Although if you get frustrated before then, of course get a 2018 14.4 SR which you can't go wrong there compared to what you have now. But I respect how much you've put those old 2013 and 2014 bikes through. I did it on a 2012 so I know. But after riding my 2015 with ABS and better suspension, plus not replacing wheel bearings all the time, it was time to retire the old Zero 3 years ago. Now mine was a year older than yours Burton, but you've kept yours going 2 years longer. You guys are definitely due and have earned getting a new bike and enjoying every ride that much more.
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I like wearing things out too. I'll have to take a picture of my Alpinestar boots that I've worn everyday for 4 years now. I've had to add hot glue to the soles many times as the hole in the ground let the pavement wear holes in my socks a few times. I'd order new ones but Alpinestars discontinued the model and I just like them so much.
A shoemaker should be able to resole your boots, then you're good to go again for a few years.
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I like wearing things out too. I'll have to take a picture of my Alpinestar boots that I've worn everyday for 4 years now. I've had to add hot glue to the soles many times as the hole in the ground let the pavement wear holes in my socks a few times. I'd order new ones but Alpinestars discontinued the model and I just like them so much.
A shoemaker should be able to resole your boots, then you're good to go again for a few years.
If you can find a shoemaker that will resole a pair of motorcycle boots. The local shop, owned by a Mexican, will not resole my motorcycle boots. He says he will only work on Western-style "cowboy" boots. :(
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Burton and Doug I would love to see you guys who really ride a lot of miles sell your bike to a newbie to the electric world who will probably do an average amount of riding and let you guys who really pile on the miles get the latest technology. The new longbrick bikes have a lighter and simpler monolith as there is only one parallel connection instead of 3, and 4 less cell box side plates. Heck you guys are still riding on the fast ace suspension I think, right? You can carry a lot more weight on the new suspension and it still feels nicer. Worth it alone if you guys take heavy things or passengers like I heard you say Burton.
I like wearing things out too. I'll have to take a picture of my Alpinestar boots that I've worn everyday for 4 years now. I've had to add hot glue to the soles many times as the hole in the ground let the pavement wear holes in my socks a few times. I'd order new ones but Alpinestars discontinued the model and I just like them so much.
But I am totally recommending both you guys try to make it through to early fall if you can, but then be the first to get a 2019 so you both can have the most battery to get through the winter. Although if you get frustrated before then, of course get a 2018 14.4 SR which you can't go wrong there compared to what you have now. But I respect how much you've put those old 2013 and 2014 bikes through. I did it on a 2012 so I know. But after riding my 2015 with ABS and better suspension, plus not replacing wheel bearings all the time, it was time to retire the old Zero 3 years ago. Now mine was a year older than yours Burton, but you've kept yours going 2 years longer. You guys are definitely due and have earned getting a new bike and enjoying every ride that much more.
Are you sure you're not on a sales commission Terry? ;-) I have to admire your positive attitude, despite the fact that you've obviously suffered many of the reliability issues that have plagued the rest of us. You're making me think again about getting a 2018SR!
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I'm definitely thinking about it, Terry. Part of the problem is that I have to get the bike fixed anyhow, since a bike that's not running is essentially worthless, and then I have my bike back and the pain subsides. Of course, there's always something else to do with the money, as well.
It is very tempting, though at this point I'm only running Fast Ace on the front, I have ceramic bearings in my wheels, Corbin seat, handgrips that I like, LED lights that I like, giant trunk that I like, etc. It's like an old pair of shoes...part of what I like about it at this point is its quirks.
But more torque, more range, possibly stock fast charging (sorry to break up by text!), better suspension (at least in front), pretty much upgraded everything. Best of all, a decent front brake would be extremely welcome, though the Brembo pads have helped a lot. A new warranty isn't a bad selling point to me either.
Maybe next year they'll bring back the red bodywork. I have Zero (sorry) interest in the white.
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Maybe next year they'll bring back the red bodywork. I have Zero (sorry) interest in the white.
Glad to see I'm not the only one to find the current palette "boring."
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Heh. I just got a 2018 SR and sprung an extra $500 for the red fenders and tank cover. Am wondering which color to paint the original white bodywork.
What kind of LED lights do you have, Doug and where did you get them?
And do you have the part number or a link to a source of the Brembo pads?
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I got the LED headlight bulb off of Amazon, but it's been discontinued. A friend at work gave me access to some LED bulbs he'd bought in bulk; a few of them worked in my tail light and turn signals. Couldn't give you a part number or source for those. Do a search here, it's been discussed a fair amount. The turn signal housings are pretty small so make sure you don't get a long bulb like some of the LED units are.
The Brembo pads (front only) are part number 07KA17.05 . I could only find them on ebay, and only abroad (Italy IIRC), but they arrived fine, mounted up and have been working fine. Which reminds me I need to get another set so I don't have to wait so long for them next time I need to replace them.
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My personal opinion is that Zero has some serious problems with its culture. It's not necessarily that specific individuals are bad people, but they end up doing bad things as a result of the environment they find themselves in. It is absolutely ripe for one of those corporate fixers to go in and shake things up a bit. They simply need to adopt higher standards throughout. Reply to emails, test their products thoroughly and so on. Easier said than done of course...
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Update: My bike is currently in my carport, charging up. I rode it home from the dealer a couple of hours ago.
It's been 8-1/2 weeks since it failed on the freeway. Sixty-one days ago by actual count.
On the plus side, Zero "good-willed" everything! I didn't get charged a dime, for parts, labor or shipping the bike to/from Scotts Valley. That was pretty cool of them.
But they shouldn't have had to do that. I take the fact that they did it as an acknowledgement that they really screwed the pooch. It's also true that in California, if you request the replaced parts back (as I did), the shop is required by law to give them back to you...but not if you're not charged for them. I didn't get anything back. Did they not want me to see the "failed" BMS, MBB and other assorted parts?
I'd actually be willing to forgive and forget, free repairs, early adoptership and all, but for the last thing the shop manager said to me. He said that Zero thought "the aftermarket charger" (a Diginow V2) was responsible for the problem, destroying the BMS which took out everything else. I had intended to keep my tongue in my head, but I couldn't restrain the "That's f___ing bulls__t!" that came out of my mouth at that point. The charger is in no way connected to the BMS, by CAN bus or any other way (which could in no way destroy electronics anyhow), except that they're both connected to the battery pack. How could the charger kill the BMS without destroying the battery? It can't.Their system failed, and that happens, but they tried to blame someone else. That's not acceptable.
Grow up, Zero. Your product failed, which products do from time to time. The ONLY way to handle that is to get it repaired, make the customer happy, and move on. Taking 61 days to repair it, then blaming someone else, really isn't very impressive.
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SCv2 control module appears to have a connection to aux charge enable signal from an arduino serial +5Vdc. Where does that go, to the MBB? Is it isolated?