ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Tech => Parts, Mods And Hacks => Topic started by: Shadow on September 11, 2018, 12:20:52 PM
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Elcon TC HK-H 1800W Charger (on Zero Motorcycles 2013+)
Onboard charger functional substitute or additional QuiQ-like offboard charger for about $300 USD.
Vendor I used is EVComponents on their Customized Chargers (http://evcomponents.com/customized-chargers.html) website section. When ordering you can give the battery information and it will come pre-programmed as specified with "charge enable" wires. Discovering this information from Unofficial Zero Service Manual at the UZM:Cells (https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Cells) topic lists various model years and cell informations. For my 2016 DSR these are Farasis 29Ah cells and there is no direct datasheet (it exists, but who has it? Please share if you have a copy!) but an older datasheet for 25Ah cells is close enough for the voltage characteristics.
Ordering details are as follows:
Battery Type Litihum-ion
Number Of batteries In Series 28
Nominal Voltage of each battery 3.65
Amp Hour(Ah) of Battery Pack 110
AC Input Voltage 90VAC~256VAC
Other Requirement(not required) 28s4p, fully charged 4.15Vdc/cell 116.4Vdc maximum.
Subtotal $225.00 + Shipping & Handling $81.00 = Grand Total $306.00
Precisely the same module can be ordered from Electric Conversions (Elcon of California USA); from email quotes and correspondence the people at Elcon confirmed that these modules are all made by the same TC Electronics factory in China. Elcon provides a value-add by having programming and warranty available to customers from California. Elcon prices out at twice the cost for single quantities however for large quantities the pricing is then comparable to ordering direct from China.
Order with EVComponents placed 25-July-2018, shipping advice received 07-August-2018, DHL tracking number received 11-August-2018, package received 13-August-2018.
(https://i.imgur.com/xJa5ZR0.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/V666Fh5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/TaDkUeq.jpg)
Other tools and materials:
Anderson Power Products #10/#12 gauge size SBS series connector contacts (two are needed for re-working the soldered SB series-compatible ends of the DC output cable from the charger)
0.25 inch Heat Shrink Tubing (two lengths sum total less than 8 inches)
Heat source for the above
TEMCo Hydraulic Cable Lug Crimper TH0005 11-US-TON (Needed for the #6 AWG crimp die)
Zap straps / "zip-ties"
Wiring to the bike for testing:
The stock charger on the 2016 is belly pan mounted and has a data connection I haven't touched yet, an AC input wired to the kettle power socket as mounted to the bike frame, and a DC power connector which is APP SBS #10/12 sized crimped contacts in an SBS50BRN shell. You could probably ignore this. What I did for testing was (after verifying residual voltage was non-lethal) un-pin the connector shell and rubber boot for re-use and tuck the contacts out of the way.
The HK-H 1800W package comes with a NEMA 15A and (as-of-yet unidentified) other connector pigtail for AC input, a KST 50A gray (soldered! KST #8 ga contacts on #10ga stranded wire) and (as-of-yet unidentified) other connector pigtail for DC output, and some charging enable wires pinned on a multi-position connector for the data signaling.
For DC output pigtail I cut off the soldered contacts and replaced with APP SBS #10/12 contacts crimped and heat shrink guarded with the rubber boot from previous un-pin of the stock charger. This DC cabling was then routed to where I mount the HK-H 1800W unit on the bike.
AC input pigtail was left as-is since I have a short cable which connects to a Zero OEM J1772 inlet adapter, out of convenience as the inlet was already mounted on my bike to a NEMA 15A receptacle end.
Signal wires are connected to a 120 Ohm resistance for testing to enable the charging module's program.
The watts are going in! This was on a battery that had been charged to full overnight with the stock onboard module and the voltage was resting between 115Vdc-116Vdc. I watched it continue to taper back on the watts until zero watts were going in. At that time the charging finished and no watts were flowing the fan on the HK-H 1800W unit continued to be active for a period of time before shutting off.
(https://i.imgur.com/KSqoG9f.png) (https://i.imgur.com/SlqEtpi.png)
The reason I chose the 1800W module and not the 3300W module (what most people know this as the basis product from which DigiNow Super Charger v2 is developed) or the 6600W module is rather I found the DC supply wire protrusion for the fan to be a weak point of design in my experience with the DigiNow Super Charger v2. Also cost is a factor, if you do not ever need an upgraded charger but you may still want to have a reasonably priced option should your stock onboard charger cease to function. At $225 (plus high shipping cost) for single quantity this is a completely reasonable insurance against a failed charger. Given all the talk I have read and heard about spending thousands of dollars on charging equipment to go to extremes, or to still suggest we pay $600 for the QuiQ charger which is some really aging technology, it is worth a try to show there are other options.
(https://i.imgur.com/xUU8YBi.jpg)
Mounting options are not well explored yet. This is physically smaller than the 3300W module but the connector being on the "bottom" is a bit of a challenge. Heat sink form is integral to the casing and guards the fan DC supply wire very well. I tried to poke my finger into the fan (why?) well I was not successful it is finger proof but probably not kid safe. Yes the heat sink profile nests into the top loop of the DS slider bars as shown and for temporary purpose I have some paracord to secure it there. Not shown above is the connection to charging enable wires which I found a decade resistor box to connect 120 Ohm for activation. I'm just excited that this works at all - I have experience with other unrelated purchases that anything I would order directly from China could be 50% probability filled with clay bricks and not do anything at all. No problems with EVComponents except that I have not received any documentation on what the wiring is for those other positions on that data connector. Does anyone else here have that information? Can it be controlled with CANbus or how to reprogram for different voltage set points?
(https://i.imgur.com/oOW5jKt.jpg)
Encouraged by this early success I secured the unit to the slider bars and made a trip to town. At a ChargePoint station I get some data from a quick 5 minute session.
(https://i.imgur.com/YXwT9zB.png) (https://i.imgur.com/O7NckYw.png)
Time now to get to town where I can get baseline data for 120Vac and 240Vac input voltages, and to write this post to the forum. Coincidentally I arrived exactly as my odometer rolled to 36,000mi. Not too shabby quantity of miles for a 2016 DSR ::) Obviously beyond the care of safety critical components (mirrors, tire pressure, belt, torque values of all bolts) this bike never gets washed or garaged and more recently the local bird wildlife have discovered a method to poop on the dashboard; I can still see the bluetooth symbol in that corner when needed so I haven't yet bothered to clean that portion.
(https://i.imgur.com/3kH9MZi.jpg)
Charging on 120Vac input:
(https://i.imgur.com/TkhEp7w.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/YPVCHLI.png)
HK-H 1800W back to 220Vac input, and QuiQ connected to AUX charging port:
(https://i.imgur.com/sTFoeoI.png)
QuiQ only (it didn't make any difference on the wattage for output what the input voltage was):
(https://i.imgur.com/Z6pgGta.png)
So... more experimenting to do with mounting options and to actually replace all functions of the onboard charger. I would love to see someone with an FX(S) get one of these units and document how it can be connected to that model.
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Collecting some information.
Manufacturer: Tiecheng Ltd. (http://www.tccharger.com/english/) "TC Charger"
Datasheet at https://www.elektromobilitaet-riester.de/app/download/15141527225/TC+Charger+1%2C8+kW.pdf
Seller websites:
EVComponents (http://evcomponents.com/customized-chargers.html)
ElectricMotorsport (https://www.electricmotorsport.com)
EVLithium (http://www.evlithium.com)
Electric Conversions (Elcon) (http://www.elconchargers.com/UHF.html)
GreenStore @ AliExpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/708582)
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On making a mount the idea is to use frame mounting locations (there's 4 easy to access mounting points on the frame behind the front fascia plastics)
(https://i.imgur.com/l6F9PyF.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/dXskvx2.jpg)
This could be possible to fit? The signal connector is getting damaged from all this action so I modeled up a cover. Also I am trying some other shapes now that I have the mounting locations modeled up closer to reality.
(https://i.imgur.com/ueMGFkP.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/hu2SAjm.jpg)
Three of the mounting points should be sufficient; These just barely fit on the printbed surface of a Prusa i3 Mk2 (210mm by 250mm)
(https://i.imgur.com/9kEKwmD.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/AI4P6wm.jpg)
Saving time and material on a prototype print by using just two mounting points and PLA material. ABS would likely hold together better and not as likely to deform in direct sunshine but PLA is easier to print with for now.
(https://i.imgur.com/RAUPpma.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/h5ytKAW.jpg)
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Thanks for sharing this Shadow! I'm following your progress and will likely be following in your footsteps...
So you went the enable signal route, can you post a schematic and a pic of how you wired it up? I assume you connected it to one of the signaling pins on the anderson connector to keep the contactor closed, correct?
Was the CANbus option even feasible? Was there an option to order the charger with the protocol to talk with the bike straight out of the box?
The AliExpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3-3KW-Elcon-TC-Charger-for-Electric-Vehicle-for-LiPo-LiFe-Lead-Acid-battery-pack-for/32855919611.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3-3KW-Elcon-TC-Charger-for-Electric-Vehicle-for-LiPo-LiFe-Lead-Acid-battery-pack-for/32855919611.html)) supplier states that they can work with most BMSs but I doubt Zero's is one of them :-\
I saw a post with someone using a ThunderStruck EVCC-Basic Controller but that is considerable added complexity that I would prefer to avoid, so I'll likely be going the enable signal route.
Are you using these in tandem with the stock charger?
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The mount has held up reasonably well up to now. I have not used my stock charger since mounting the HK-H 1800W. There's a disadvantage if you're sourcing 110Vac when compared to the stock S/DS charger because the HK-H 1800W unit operates at half rate. However even in that case of half-rate output it does better than a QuiQ charger, and if you connect to 220Vac then it does twice as well.
So... if your input is 220Vac this is comparable to two QuiQ units and for about half of the cost (considering you will need to source some connectors and DIY stuff), and also less mass which makes it easier to mount permanently. I think this would make a good addition to the stock charger and certainly a good alternative to a QuiQ.
Charging-enable hack from the bike of EMF user liveforphysics (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=1531) (2017 Zero DS if I remember correctly):
(https://zeromanual.com/images/2/27/LW_ZeroChargerEnableAtHarness_2018-09-25.jpg)
The method pictured above is reported to have been in use for 2 years and simply has no parts other than the switch as pictured. Additionally I would like to connect a microcontroller to this for access to CANbus and other signals. Getting the correct connector for a few dollars seems like the way I want to go about it.
The shell has "JAE" marking on it. Searching around I found this datasheet for likely candidate JAE MX23A series connector: https://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/648/1650.pdf
...So you went the enable signal route, can you post a schematic and a pic of how you wired it up? I assume you connected it to one of the signaling pins on the anderson connector to keep the contactor closed, correct?
For my initial testing I've been also connecting an external charger the QuiQ and that does enable via the AUX connector. Else I've just kept the bike key-on and hang some junk from the throttle to keep the bike from timing out and turning off (no charging enable but to keep the contactor open).
...Was the CANbus option even feasible? Was there an option to order the charger with the protocol to talk with the bike straight out of the box?
The AliExpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3-3KW-Elcon-TC-Charger-for-Electric-Vehicle-for-LiPo-LiFe-Lead-Acid-battery-pack-for/32855919611.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3-3KW-Elcon-TC-Charger-for-Electric-Vehicle-for-LiPo-LiFe-Lead-Acid-battery-pack-for/32855919611.html)) supplier states that they can work with most BMSs but I doubt Zero's is one of them :-\
I saw a post with someone using a ThunderStruck EVCC-Basic Controller but that is considerable added complexity that I would prefer to avoid, so I'll likely be going the enable signal route.
I don't know yet if CANbus is feasible when the charger is ordered with pre-set voltage program. The datasheet for the HK-H 1800W charger shows pin out for CANbus, and there are a full set of pins on the charger's connector that I can see, but the mating connector being supplied with the unit only has two positions crimped and wired in place for the HK-H 1800W charging enable signal. Before finding the datasheet I was concerned of damaging the charger if these positions are for CANbus and so I used 120ohm resistor for their connection. Once verifying the charge-enable operation I think the resistor is not necessary and so (not pictured before) I ran a blob of solder in place on the charger's connector pins that it always has the charging enable shorted. The 3d-printed yellow dust cover (pictured) I designed slips over the connector and the depth of assembly is better this way for how I have the unit mounted against the frame.
The language needed for ordering from the vendors of these chargers is a great portion of just how to start with this project! I would also like to know if my unit has CANbus functionality the same as a unit that is ordered to be CANbus-only (!?) or are we confused and these units are always ordered with pre-set programs? I would also like to hear from the CANbus experts! Actually, I have got some advice from EMF user Lenny (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=7736) about the HK-J 3300W model working correctly with his TCCharger-voltage-current-control (https://github.com/Lennart-O/TCCharger-voltage-current-control) (GitHub link) code for a microcontroller):
Using 120 Ohm was a good idea, as this would be the value for the terminating resistor of the CAN. Although I believe that one can also short the CAN H/L wires without damaging anything. But it's clear now that your charger is preprogrammed and doesn't need/have CAN - it just works!
Are you using these in tandem with the stock charger?
No I disconnected my stock charger and have not used it since the HK-H 1800W mounting. If you can source 220Vac then there's only more motivation to go with another HK-H 1800W unit or to aim higher with the HK-J 3300W or even the 6600W model. The stock S/DS charger and QuiQ chargers are actually very good for 110Vac input on size and environmental reliability (fanless and splash proof), but for 220Vac they're not what I'd consider to be worth their mass in carrying around on a motorcycle compared to this other newer technology.
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I saw a post with someone using a ThunderStruck EVCC-Basic Controller but that is considerable added complexity...
Hello. Probably it is this post, concerning my building of a charger from a TC 3.3kW (CAN-bus version), controlled by a ThunderStruck EVCC-Basic Controller (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8087.0).
I can say that in fact it was pretty easy and there was no "complexity", since I have left all the "complexity" to others:
- ThunderStruck who sold me the controller already programmed to my wishes (but I can re-program it later if necessary by connecting the controller to my computer via USB),
- Otten who sold me the CAN-enabled TC charger already wired according to my wishes.
I just had to connect both and enjoy !
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Measurements made from AC clamp meter and Zero Voltage app with stock charger and HK-H 1800W unit connected.
13.5A@240Vac input 3kW output:
(https://i.imgur.com/51WFEPZ.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/d8MXsQR.png)
20A@120Vac input 2kW output:
(https://i.imgur.com/1p3uvIx.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/XSNWHDA.png)
The thin gauge of AC input adapters I have cobbled together is now a source of concern as they are becoming hot with use. However, the output side is fine and I think this is a great way to cut charging time in half (or better) on 230/240Vac power sources for less than $400 US cost.
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DonTom (http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?action=profile;u=8167) and I got a ~2 hour session in at a ChargePoint and the recorded averages are:
(https://i.imgur.com/4HbRSei.png)
3.1121kW AC average rate onboard plus HK-H 1800W (2016 DSR)
...no screenshot for the other session...
3.3585kW AC average rate two QuiQ plus onboard (2017 SR+PT)
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Which Android application gave you this screenshot ?
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Which Android application gave you this screenshot ?
Vendor bitshape (https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=bitshape) "Zero Voltage" app $5usd cost via Google Play; for the DigiNow adapter but it was updated to work with Bluetooth data from bike MBB in the same manner that the OEM Zero app reads. I think it's worth the $5 although it is very plain and simple. If concerned about paying for apps I'd suggest buying a Google Play gift card for cash at the grocery store and then no credit card data need be given to Google.
Update: You might also be referring to ChargePoint app for the ChargePoint EVSE network?
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Yes, I already have Zero Voltage.
My question was about the App with charging stats. It seems that it is in relation with ChargePoint. But if you slide the ChargePoint map upon France, you will understand why it does not seem useful for me: there are no level 1 and level 2 ChargePoint stations in Europe :o
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Similar plotting might be available in the Metrics for Zero Motorcycle (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mc.zero) app (advertising and in-app purchases); I have not tried to use it yet.
Having an EVSE network that offers data plot of charging status is very useful because Zero Motorcycles does not have any such connection.
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I have installed the "Metrics for Zero Motorcycles" application past week, but did not find the time to try it. I will try these days...
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Ordered today the charging harness connector parts. From that datasheet we find the part numbers to search for:
Dummy Pin: M120-55780
Socket contact: M23S05K351
18pos Socket Housing MX23A18SF1
18pos Front Cap MX23A18XF1
18pos Standard pinheader MX23A18NF1
18pos Reverse pinheader MX23A18NF2
It looks like Digi-Key and Mouser are the best for single quantity order on these parts. Mouser seems to have stock on more of those parts overall. The Front Cap is not stocked anywhere that I could find.
I'm not yet sure this is the correct part but I ordered at least one of everything. Order total was less than $50usd. I think the important bits are in stock and the backordered items won't cause too much of a delay in figuring this out.
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Shadow, how has this been working for you? Really thinking of going a similar direction and am tossing up the idea of going pre-programmed or the canbus option for having more control over the charger.
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I was hit by a left-hander in October of 2018 (no comments about this pending litigation) so I don't have any more improvements i.e. CANbus to share. For the money this is as cheap as it gets and charging performs as described above. In concert with the S/DS stock charger it was good enough to pull the maximum current on a 20A mains circuit without tripping the breaker. For anything more than that use I would suggest to drop the weight of the stock charger and substitute for a water-cooled 6600W charging module adapted for this and documented with isolated CANbus functionality. I did receive the connectors for the bike's stock charger harness plug and they appear to be correct as listed.
My editorial opinion: Less than ~6kW charging on a new EV is a waste of time and money. The Zero SR/F Premium being sold now has 3kW+3kW stock charging and the new 6kW chargetank is an available OEM retrofit for Zero 2015+. In most situations for S/DS just get the 6kW OEM chargetank... and for FX remove the deadweight stock charger and get to work documenting the 1800W (less than ZF7.2) and 6600W (ZF7.2 or better) TC units ;D
I may yet contribute to a CAN bus "brain" design as an excuse to learn RISC-V uC development. If anyone familiar with board layout would like to do one for the SiFive Freedom E310 with some isolated CANbus that would get my attention. I am thinking the HiFive1 revision B is an interesting prototyping board. There's several commercial products out there of proprietary design to interact with CANbus though nothing in my more general area of interest with open design.
Meanwhile the Teensy boards have CAN interfaces available but would need isolated transceivers. Easy to prototype anyways and there is some existing effort by others to write "brain" code for controlling the HK-J charging modules.
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Oh man I hope you have recovered well.
I have a FX and looked at the 6.6kw unit, since it would match up really well with the 7.2 battery, but its just too big to fit onboard and theres already limited space to work with on that bike. I found some area in the rear shock well that I think a 3.3kw unit could fit. I'm looking at fabricating a bracket / rear subframe around a 3.3 unit that will replace the bottom plastic on the tail (the plastic tail consumes alot of wasted space right under the rear seat). With the heatsink / fan I think its going to be too tall so I may have to do some water cooling set up as well as finding a place to rig in a j-plug. 3.3kw + .6kw onboard is almost 4kw charging on the FX, which will definitely be a game changer for me. At least thats the next big project.
Theres already a couple people who have contributed to a can-bus shield on an arduino to talk to the TC chargers, that sounds like a cheap and flexible set up. I havent found anything developed for reading the j1772 pilot signaling but i cant imagine it would be hard to code. I'm debating on going the arduino route and tinkering with it, or taking the easy route and just ordering a thunderstruck charge controller. I'm worried with the non can version that I wont have enough control over the charger to be happy.
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> ... Meanwhile the Teensy boards have CAN interfaces available but would need isolated transceivers. Easy to prototype anyways and there is some existing effort by others to write "brain" code for controlling the HK-J charging modules. ...
Are the teensy canbus known to work with the TC chargers?
I just got the pi zero w/waveshare rs485 can hat combo to work to control the 3.3kw units this past weekend, if you prefer raspberry pi/linux platform to arduino, that's an option. I used lennart otten's and daniel montero's arduino code for reference: https://github.com/Lennart-O/TCCharger-voltage-current-control and https://github.com/DanyEarth/TC-Charger-CAN-controller respecitvely.
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My 3.3kw unit arrived from EVComponents a few weeks ago. I ordered the anderson connector, some beefy wire and some canbus modules off of Amazon. I'm using an arduino and the code from Lennart as mentioned above because it was the most simple to go with. I choose to go the Arduino route just because there is no boot up time and its simple as well. I've wired in the LCD keypad shield and will write a menu structure soon to adjust current / max SOC on the fly.
Anyway, I finally got everything working last night and it works great! I'm using the stock charger and the 3.3kw unit as an off-board charger for the short term. Charge time on my 7.2FX at 82%soc was 2 hours with just the onboard charger, and 16 minutes with the 3.3kw unit + onboard.
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Screenshot of charging
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My 3.3kw unit arrived from EVComponents a few weeks ago. I ordered the anderson connector, some beefy wire and ...
...
Anyway, I finally got everything working last night and it works great! ...
Can you share a detailed view of how your order to EVCompomponents was written? Particularly I am ever curious if the module can have both CANbus and a default pre-programmed charging profile; what information did you give exactly that you got a unit responding to CANbus?
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My 3.3kw unit arrived from EVComponents a few weeks ago. I ordered the anderson connector, some beefy wire and ...
...
Anyway, I finally got everything working last night and it works great! ...
Can you share a detailed view of how your order to EVCompomponents was written? Particularly I am ever curious if the module can have both CANbus and a default pre-programmed charging profile; what information did you give exactly that you got a unit responding to CANbus?
Sure thing! I emailed them prior to ordering to make sure I was ordering correctly, they just asked to specify the canbus model in the notes. I also asked about enable charging (pre-programmed) and canbus, and I guess its either one or the other. They also stated it couldnt be re-programmed to the other after ordering; I have a feeling it can.. but wouldnt be easy. I opened it up and its all potted in silicon.
Here are my order details:
Elcon TC HK-J 3300W Charger
Battery Type
Litihum-ion
Number Of batteries In Series
28
Nominal Voltage of each battery
3.65
Amp Hour(Ah) of Battery Pack
57
AC Input Voltage
90VAC~256VAC
Other Requirement(not required)
Will be controlled via canbus, need the canbus controlled charger option
I have a feeling only the input and output voltage (nominal V * cells) are all they really need for it as everything else is controlled via CAN. It wasnt fast, It took about a month for them to program / prepare the charger and get it shipped. There's only one shipping option, and thats the $90 2 day shipping via DHL. It did only take 2 days to ship, so from time to order to my door step was about a month and a week.
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I plan on doing a write-up on the can-bus interface with it when I code the menus I want and get that all sorted out.
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I do not understand why the CAN-bus version of this charger should be programmed.
Perhaps the addresses for the communication ? But it seems that they are always the same...
There is a lot of mystery around the TC Charger, the way it works and how it can be programmed or controlled.
I spent a lot of time last year, trying to get some information, and I did not success.
If you can bring some good information, it would be great !
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Address is one of the things that is programmed. When I asked them about canbus they sent me a spec sheet on the detailing the can frames.
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[ . . . ]
In most situations for S/DS just get the 6kW OEM chargetank... [ . . . ] 6600W (ZF7.2 or better) TC units ;D
[ . . . ]
Any tips for getting an additional 6kW on top of the OEM chargetank? I'm interested! I have a 2019. Would the data I'm working with be any different than what's been provided here mostly?
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Any tips for getting an additional 6kW on top of the OEM chargetank? I'm interested! I have a 2019. Would the data I'm working with be any different than what's been provided here mostly?
For less heating and less damage to the battery charge cycle, you should have a ramp up/down of charging current to avoid full charging current when either the SoC is very low (<92Vdc?) or high (>104Vdc?). My figures here are a guess. It is somewhat more complicated by the existing Zero Chargetank - I think you will be reverse engineering the CAN bus signals to interoperate with it.
The MBB may have a hard limit if it senses too much current for some time (say 30 seconds) to force the contactor open and throw an error state. If this is done under load at higher current the contactor can be damaged. OEM would be within their rights to not cover such damage under warranty; replacing the contactor is possible to DIY if you're a battery building expert... so stay clear of pushing your bike to that limit. Whatever Ah rating for your ZForce pack is probably also the instantaneous limit, most bikes so far have MBB limit of 1C for 30 seconds. Do the math and keep under that limit it should be fine. It might be sensible to chart what the peak output current of the Chargetank is and set that aside in the power budget.
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How did I miss this thread? Thank you for all your work and risk Shadow. I have written down the connector name for the AC input *somewhere*; I will try to find it (not that it matters much as one of my connectors heats after <40 cycles). I believe it was a very rare "Sumitomo-equivalent" on all these TC chargers. I too am very concerned about the robustness of the connections to the charger as well as the DC output wire protection--you may be wise picking the smaller unit. I'm working on mounting my HK-J's inboard of the Happy Trails rack on the plate so I can remove them easily when not going on trips. Not ideal for CoG but it is certainly no worse than having a passenger. Water resistance is my number one concern so I mount high and may switch all connectors when I find something suitable.
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Some of the connections are named per:
https://www.elconchargers.com/f/HK-J-H99-40-verA1.pdf
and the manuals on this site, but not the 1800W strangely enough.
https://www.elconchargers.com/manuals.html
These AC inputs appear to be a clone of an obscure Sumitomo connector. I swear I just need to dig through all my accounts and see where I recorded it.
Perhaps it was Tyco or Delphi.
DJ7031-4.8-11/21 does result in an ebay listing at least--https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Sets-3-Pin-Electric-Fan-Plug-Harness-Connector-with-Terminal-DJ7031-4-8-11-21/312216872200
Sumitomo TS Sealed 4.8mm Series, Sumitomo P/N: 6189-0165 sounds very familiar to me.
http://prd.sws.co.jp/components/en/detail.php?number_s=61890165
which mates to 6188-0129 http://prd.sws.co.jp/components/en/detail.php?number_s=61880129 (these are just the housings).
If I can just remember where I put it I could confirm compatibility and make it so you could likely get it from your local auto supply (Toyota Corolla fan/injector plug for certain year) for instance.
The other connectors (at least on the HK-J) appear to be knockoff's (the flashing on the seal is TERRIBLE) of the AMP/Tyco Superseal Series.. not sure the pitch
https://www.corsa-technic.com/category.php?category_id=102
I'm posting some exciting news about TC chargers in a new thread.
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Yes, noting also the HK-H may be a discontinued part now, superseded by HK-L and HK-M.
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(https://zeromanual.com/images/2/27/LW_ZeroChargerEnableAtHarness_2018-09-25.jpg)
Has anybody here used the above mention hack? I would like to know what it does and if it would be useful for what I want to do. And that is to be able to charge without using the OBC and with the key removed. I want to be able to enable and disable (by unplugging the OBC) the extra 1.3 KW OBC charge as required.
Does the above switch simply close the contactor (even when key is removed) or does it do more or something else?
The reason I am asking is because I purchased a couple of 3.3 KW Econs today, all programmed up for my Zero SR. There could be times where I need to leave with the key and cannot charge at the 7.9 KW because many J Stns have a 6.6 KW (or less) limit. I have my two 3.3 Elcons wired to the motor controller via Anderson Connectors.
I realize there are other ways to solve this problem, such as the ChargePoint I used here today. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/217070) It says it can do "6.6 KW per port", so all I would need is to use both ports, using two J adapters (I do own four of them, but I have three in Reno right now). That's the very best way when possible. But I want some flexibility of my charge rate, so I can always charge as much as possible without "busting" as they say in Blackjack.
BTW, at the above mentioned J-station (my Plugshare linkg above). I did try the full 7.9 KWs to see what would happen. The chargepoint was working and even showed that I was charge a 7.X KW. It worked great for about two minutes at that rate and went dead. It self re-set, so no harm done. I simply unplugged and re-plugged back in at 6.6 KW (I disconnected the OBC and left the key on).
I will use my two old 2.5 KW chargers on my DS, and charge it at 6.3 KW from now on. No real issue there, but I am getting very close to 1C on that bike.
So what does the above switch actually do? I want to make sure I understand what it does before I add it to my Zero SR. Anybody here using it?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I just now got done doing the above modification, temporary, using clip leads before I do some hard wiring of the switch. It works PERFECTLTY for what I want. I am charging my bike right now at 6.5 KW as shown on the Zero app without using the OBC, key is out. BTW, it also says I have a new FW update ready, but my chargers must be disconnected for the update.
Here is what the above modification does and how to use it.
At first nothing happens because there is no voltage (I checked the red lead for voltage before I started (key was out).
With the added switch closed, you turn on the key, contactor then closes. Then turn the bike off and the contactor stays closed with a display, even if NOT charging. So then the key can be removed and the bike can then be charged WITHOUT the OBC, when chargers are connected to the motor controller battery contacts.
BTW, the charger plug must be connected back in the charger for the bike to run.
So now I can charge my Zero SR at any of the following rates (as required):
1.3 KW
3.3 KW
4.6 KW
6.6 KW
7.9 KW
BTW, instead of melted wires as shown in the photo (the plug shown is at the rear of the charger, I don't think anybody mentioned that) I cut the wires and will use screw-in European Connectors. (https://www.amazon.com/XLX-Position-Environmental-Retardant-Connector/dp/B077GN4LWZ/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=European+terminal+strip&qid=1601056876&s=industrial&sr=1-4)
Or now that the wires are cut, I could decide on solder and heat shrink tubing. After I find a switch and a good location to mount it I will decide.
Thanks go to Shadow for posting the above hack/modification!
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I can now charge my Zero SR at as much as ~10 KW when at home as I can also add in a couple of DeltaQs.
I have my switch completed, bike ready to ride and now can charge with or without the OBC.
Switch location is shown below. It was a rather large switch I found and needed the clearance and there is plenty of room at that location.
Also below is bottom of the charger where I did most of the work.
Now nothing left to do on the bike except for riding and charging.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I can now charge my Zero SR at as much as ~10 KW when at home as I can also add in a couple of DeltaQs.
I have my switch completed, bike ready to ride and now can charge with or without the OBC.
Switch location is shown below. It was a rather large switch I found and needed the clearance and there is plenty of room at that location...
What happens when that switch is closed while riding? Does the bike stay in run mode with contactor closed?
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What happens when that switch is closed while riding? Does the bike stay in run mode with contactor closed?
The bike will still run with the key on (but not when key is off), but all I did was a short test in the garage. I have not tried to flip the added switch while actually ridding, but I assume it will not know the difference. Contactor stays closed with the added switch closed, regradless if key is on or off (and removed). The display stays on, but is not lit up. If there is light, I can see how long it will take to charge on the display. While those numbers are close for practical reasons, it will take MUCH longer to get to 100% as my chargers are only a couple of hundred watts (very low current) above 114 VDC (~95% SOC) and will be fast to 95% SOC but very slow (over night) to get that last 5% without the OBC running. But I can always run the OBC after the 95% anyway. Works very well for my needs.
I have decided to do the same mod in my DS. There are a few J1772 stns that can only do 5.5 KW, so I want to be able to do 5 KW without the OBC running with my two old Elcon 2.5 KW chargers.
With the added switch my DS can charge at the following rates:
1.3, 2.5, 3.8, 5.0 & 6.3KW. If I don't do the modification to my DS, I won't be able to do the 5KW with the key out.
Thanks again for that info! I really like that modification. Easy to do and can be handy at times.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I now also have this modification completed and now working on my DS, so I can now charge it at 1.3, 2.5, 3.8, 5.0 & 6.3KW. I don't want to go any higher on this bike as it is very close to the 1C limit at 6.3KW.
BTW, the gray wire in the photo is really gray-red. It can look like another red wire depending on the angle. The red stripe is quite thick and can look like a red wire.
The entire thing takes about two hours but that includes making changes to my horn mounting in my case.
-Don- Reno, NV
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I was watching my Zero DS charge up near the end today. I Started out at the full 6.3 KW at 65% SOC.
At 93% SOC one of the 2.5 KW chargers deactivates. At 95% SOC the other 2.5 KW charger deactivates. From 95% on, it is charging with only the OBC (not counting the ~150W residual from the two 2.5 KW chargers).
It won't be often that I need to touch the added switch on this bike to reduce the charge rate, but it's now there if I do.
-Don- Reno, NV
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Nice work
Where is the plug for the charger-enable hack?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Nice work
Where is the plug for the charger-enable hack?
It's the connector at the rear of the on board charger, very bottom of bike. Bottom pan must be removed to see it.
See upper photo in reply number 32 above. It's right below the motor.
-Don- Reno, NV
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What happens when that switch is closed while riding? Does the bike stay in run mode with contactor closed?
I now have a more complete answer after an 18 mile ride on my DS to my other house here in Cold Springs Valley.
While riding, if the switch is activated, NO difference at all. I can ride it all day like that and not notice.
However, if I open the switch and then stop, close the switch, turn the key off, the bike will NOT run at all when I turn the key back on.
IOW, it is not possible to ride off with the switch activated (closed) after a charge. And if the switch gets closed while riding, nothing changes at all, it rides normally.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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...it is not possible to ride off with the switch activated (closed) after a charge. And if the switch gets closed while riding, nothing changes at all, it rides normally...
Interesting. Good to know it is safe to ride with if closed unintentionally.
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Hey Shadow, I want to thank you for this post topic. It really helped me out and got my 2015 Zero SR back on the road.
My onboard charger died back in November. The outlet I plugged it into tripped, and the charger must not have liked that. This is actually my SECOND stock charger. The first one also fried but was under warranty at the time. I heard a new one would be over a grand out of pocket before labor. I considered the DeltaQ option but at 900w it sounded absolutely weak for $600. I really wanted to go with Diginow or EVtricity for their fast charging solutions but apparently they're both out of the game.
This forum topic provided a viable and less expensive alternative. I opted for the TC HK-J 3300 (still trying to figure out if Elcon designed the unit or if they just rebrand it). I ordered from EV Components just as you did, providing the same exact numbers you provided since they appear to corroborate with zeromanual.com (THANKS TO YOU GUYS AS WELL!) for my 12.5 kWh bike. The timeline was longer for me though as I placed the order on November 19th and received the unit on January 9th. Guessing covid plus holidays will do that. The unit costed $475 USD and shipping was $89. Michael from EV Components was pretty responsive, and I'm pretty sure it's the same Michael from EV Assemble.
So the unit comes with a standard NEMA 5-15 plug input, an Anderson SB50 output, and the pig tail is configured to the 12v+ and enable pins (CAN BUS sockets are there but I'm not using them). I ghetto attached a switch to the pigtail.
(https://i.imgur.com/6AgdWT6l.jpg)
I didn't want to cut off any connectors yet, so I crimped an SB50 to SBS75X-BRN adapter with some 6 awg wires.
(https://i.imgur.com/1zHnXADl.jpg)
And of course since my stock charger is no longer on the bike, I had to do the connector hack to allow charging with the key is off. I pried the male connector off the the busted charger and yanked two pins as well. Attached them to the slots for the red and gray wires and ghetto soldered a switch to them.
(https://i.imgur.com/cKBxWJ0l.jpg)
The accessory port being out of the way takes a bit more effort to reach than the C13 port, but getting it plugged in is not too bad.
(https://i.imgur.com/KRG74iUl.jpg)
All in all, it works. It's a couple extra steps though as I need to switch the charge hack on before keying the bike off. In either case, I absolutely appreciate the enthusiasm the EV bike community has as I'd be completely clueless without the information you guys have compiled.
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I would think that the breaker tripping would more likely be a symptom of the device failing that the breaker killing the device. I don't think the charger cares if the power is suddenly interrupted. We literally do that all the time when we pull the plug.
-Crissa
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Yeah I would think the charger would withstand it. The circuit was going to trip anyway. The breaker is at only 10 or 15 amps and I forgot about the fridge being plugged into it. Not super sure if any of this is the reason, but not going to lose too much sleep over it.
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That couldn't have damaged the charger.
-Crissa
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Hey Shadow, I want to thank you for this post topic. It really helped me out and got my 2015 Zero SR back on the road...
Nice work getting your ride charging up and back on the road! Some of those googlecontent photo embed's did not make it through - try imgur or bbimg hosting and edit that posting to get the images to stick? It's good to know the experiment worked and sharing the information has helped a fellow EV moto rider :)
I'd say for the approximate $600 similar cost to an official accessory charger you instead made a nice upgrade!
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Ahhhh ok, I switched to imgur. Hope they show up now. Guessing my browser cached my Google images so I couldn't tell it wasn't showing.
This project is pretty cool. Wish I could find more info on that data connector that goes into the onboard charger. Looking at videos on YouTube, it seems the Diginow Supercharger plugs into that connector and can start the charge without the key in, unless I'm mistaken.
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Ahhhh ok, I switched to imgur. Hope they show up now. Guessing my browser cached my Google images so I couldn't tell it wasn't showing.
This project is pretty cool. Wish I could find more info on that data connector that goes into the onboard charger. Looking at videos on YouTube, it seems the Diginow Supercharger plugs into that connector and can start the charge without the key in, unless I'm mistaken.
Back in this thread, did you notice this? (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30)
That way you can start the charge without the key.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Back in this thread, did you notice this? (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8298.30)
That way you can start the charge without the key.
-Don- Auburn, CA
I did almost the same, but not sure if I'm looking at the hack right. My switch closes the grey and red wires. With this, I can switch the bike into the charge state, but only if it's keyed on first. After that, I can key it off. Were you able to get your bike to switch into the charge state without having to key on at all?
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I did almost the same, but not sure if I'm looking at the hack right. My switch closes the grey and red wires. With this, I can switch the bike into the charge state, but only if it's keyed on first. After that, I can key it off. Were you able to get your bike to switch into the charge state without having to key on at all?
That will not be possible with my chargers as they need to see voltage before they will activate. And there is no voltage on the motor controller until the key is once turned on to supply the voltage so my chargers can turn on. And then they will stay on, even when the key is removed.
Does the charger you have put out voltage without first seeing voltage? Then you could have other possibilities, but what is wrong with using the key to get it to activate as long as you can remove the key?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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That will not be possible with my chargers as they need to see voltage before they will activate. And there is no voltage on the motor controller until the key is once turned on to supply the voltage so my chargers can turn on. And then they will stay on, even when the key is removed.
Does the charger you have put out voltage without first seeing voltage? Then you could have other possibilities, but what is wrong with using the key to get it to activate as long as you can remove the key?
-Don- Auburn, CA
Nothing wrong really. Most cases, I'll be plugging in after riding where the bike is still on anyway. Just thinking about saving a step for the rare case where I do a cold plug in. Just wanted to make sure we're experiencing the same thing.
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Nothing wrong really. Most cases, I'll be plugging in after riding where the bike is still on anyway. Just thinking about saving a step for the rare case where I do a cold plug in. Just wanted to make sure we're experiencing the same thing.
If you're also going to use your OBC, then you will not need the key for the other chargers as the OBC will close the contactor just as your key does.
-Don- Auburn, CA
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Hey Shadow, I want to thank you for this post topic. It really helped me out and got my 2015 Zero SR back on the road.
My onboard charger died back in November. The outlet I plugged it into tripped, and the charger must not have liked that. This is actually my SECOND stock charger. The first one also fried but was under warranty at the time. I heard a new one would be over a grand out of pocket before labor. I considered the DeltaQ option but at 900w it sounded absolutely weak for $600. I really wanted to go with Diginow or EVtricity for their fast charging solutions but apparently they're both out of the game.
This forum topic provided a viable and less expensive alternative. I opted for the TC HK-J 3300 (still trying to figure out if Elcon designed the unit or if they just rebrand it). I ordered from EV Components just as you did, providing the same exact numbers you provided since they appear to corroborate with zeromanual.com (THANKS TO YOU GUYS AS WELL!) for my 12.5 kWh bike. The timeline was longer for me though as I placed the order on November 19th and received the unit on January 9th. Guessing covid plus holidays will do that. The unit costed $475 USD and shipping was $89. Michael from EV Components was pretty responsive, and I'm pretty sure it's the same Michael from EV Assemble.
So the unit comes with a standard NEMA 5-15 plug input, an Anderson SB50 output, and the pig tail is configured to the 12v+ and enable pins (CAN BUS sockets are there but I'm not using them). I ghetto attached a switch to the pigtail.
(https://i.imgur.com/6AgdWT6l.jpg)
I didn't want to cut off any connectors yet, so I crimped an SB50 to SBS75X-BRN adapter with some 6 awg wires.
(https://i.imgur.com/1zHnXADl.jpg)
And of course since my stock charger is no longer on the bike, I had to do the connector hack to allow charging with the key is off. I pried the male connector off the the busted charger and yanked two pins as well. Attached them to the slots for the red and gray wires and ghetto soldered a switch to them.
(https://i.imgur.com/cKBxWJ0l.jpg)
The accessory port being out of the way takes a bit more effort to reach than the C13 port, but getting it plugged in is not too bad.
(https://i.imgur.com/KRG74iUl.jpg)
All in all, it works. It's a couple extra steps though as I need to switch the charge hack on before keying the bike off. In either case, I absolutely appreciate the enthusiasm the EV bike community has as I'd be completely clueless without the information you guys have compiled.
I tried going to EV Components website but it times out. Did you have contact with them recently?
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Hey Shadow, I want to thank you for this post topic. It really helped me out and got my 2015 Zero SR back on the road.
My onboard charger died back in November. The outlet I plugged it into tripped, and the charger must not have liked that. This is actually my SECOND stock charger. The first one also fried but was under warranty at the time. I heard a new one would be over a grand out of pocket before labor. I considered the DeltaQ option but at 900w it sounded absolutely weak for $600. I really wanted to go with Diginow or EVtricity for their fast charging solutions but apparently they're both out of the game.
This forum topic provided a viable and less expensive alternative. I opted for the TC HK-J 3300 (still trying to figure out if Elcon designed the unit or if they just rebrand it). I ordered from EV Components just as you did, providing the same exact numbers you provided since they appear to corroborate with zeromanual.com (THANKS TO YOU GUYS AS WELL!) for my 12.5 kWh bike. The timeline was longer for me though as I placed the order on November 19th and received the unit on January 9th. Guessing covid plus holidays will do that. The unit costed $475 USD and shipping was $89. Michael from EV Components was pretty responsive, and I'm pretty sure it's the same Michael from EV Assemble.
So the unit comes with a standard NEMA 5-15 plug input, an Anderson SB50 output, and the pig tail is configured to the 12v+ and enable pins (CAN BUS sockets are there but I'm not using them). I ghetto attached a switch to the pigtail.
(https://i.imgur.com/6AgdWT6l.jpg)
I didn't want to cut off any connectors yet, so I crimped an SB50 to SBS75X-BRN adapter with some 6 awg wires.
(https://i.imgur.com/1zHnXADl.jpg)
And of course since my stock charger is no longer on the bike, I had to do the connector hack to allow charging with the key is off. I pried the male connector off the the busted charger and yanked two pins as well. Attached them to the slots for the red and gray wires and ghetto soldered a switch to them.
(https://i.imgur.com/cKBxWJ0l.jpg)
The accessory port being out of the way takes a bit more effort to reach than the C13 port, but getting it plugged in is not too bad.
(https://i.imgur.com/KRG74iUl.jpg)
All in all, it works. It's a couple extra steps though as I need to switch the charge hack on before keying the bike off. In either case, I absolutely appreciate the enthusiasm the EV bike community has as I'd be completely clueless without the information you guys have compiled.
I must true going to EV Components website but it times out. Did you have contact with them recently?
That 3.3kw unit looks a lot like the ones diginow used to sell. Lennart Otten has arduino code on GitHub to read status and command charging amps via canbus. You can read charging amps and battery voltage, and infer thermal throttling and charge level from that. Generally you need to command them at least once per second or they shut off charging. Wijnand van der Horst has been selling control units in Europe, I'm going to test one in California.
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I tried going to EV Components website but it times out. Did you have contact with them recently?
Yeah, same happens to me here, they timeout. Perhaps they no longer exist.
Perhaps from selling their chargers too cheap. :)
-don- Auburn, CA
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It seems that Google could access to EV Components page on Feb. 26, 2021 (see attached Google cache screen shot). But from my connexion today, it does not work. Perhaps some website problems...
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I just tested my new charger today!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fV8ia6Zz3Q5fQc4l596mKMfxS-JXaMKJohMEOgqzacMxVaj8RAkkDzQfqZkj2P-khA8bGnhg4Xcy4UO2RAi0uv9rCTWqQu1htnZz-2lvmxQY1O-34S-1PvcOZXIKi2kzj50MIzPQrKfqfmeT1Em3rIhA=w1334-h1778-no?authuser=0)
I got the 3.3kW HK-J model from Elcon. I was just more comfortable ordering from them. I still needed to make the DC extension cable, and add a washer to the auxiliary charger port mount on my FXS. The connector was mounted too tight to whatever is directly above it that I could not plug in my cable.
The last part of my puzzle was the J1772 receptacle from TusconEV, which worked perfectly.
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@Staples : I am surprised by the size of your charger. The TC HK-J 3.3 kW is much more compact: http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13302.html
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Even that's a pretty chunky device! And over 5kg too - it's impressive that Zero manage to get 12KW of charging into the 14.4 models.
Amazes me that this technology is still so far behind... probably lack of demand leading to lack of serious R&D.
Cas :)
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The HK-M charger is much more compact: http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13303.html
This one might be close to what Zero uses probably.
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I just tested my new charger today!
Where did you get that case for the charger?
-Don- Auburn, CA
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I just tested my new charger today!
Where did you get that case for the charger?
-Don- Auburn, CA
Great question with an even better answer. I got in a Chicago alley. The Craigslist free section before it existed.
It's a Husky brand tool bag that conveniently holds my charger and cables and bungees on the back seat.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ekLnA0I45ytdqc4bNC5jHjO7PnkLNvsldcHqEfE2Z9G6GeFte15qetzgYuEYonz4ueDNxDl8VtUszgs_3rtvtUSBUfJI-HCoSjXsIlbf6XQ1MOQeKDJN0RhCWLnf01-W3JnlvQXvU-XllFfbK4JJ7_og=w1680-h1250-no)
I'll see if I can find a model number or anything on it.
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@Staples : I am surprised by the size of your charger. The TC HK-J 3.3 kW is much more compact: http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13302.html
Maybe it's an older revision or something, but it matches what is advertised on elcon's website, albeit with a slightly different mounting bracket.
https://www.elconchargers.com/catalog/item/9034090/10295140.htm
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The HK-M charger is much more compact: http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13303.html
This one might be close to what Zero uses probably.
That one only outputs 23 amps. We used the 32 amp output model with the potential overclock to 40.
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Where did you get that case for the charger?
I'll see if I can find a model number or anything on it.
No luck. The tag was cut out and all that was left was the last digit of the UPC. I tried looking on the internet for anything similar and nobody appears to be making tool bags like this.
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The HK-M charger is much more compact: http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13303.html
This one might be close to what Zero uses probably.
That one only outputs 23 amps. We used the 32 amp output model with the potential overclock to 40.
Aah yes! No wonder this is so compact. For a Zero's voltage this is somewhat of a 2.5kW charger at max. Unless it can be clocked closer to 30A then it could be closer to 3kW.
They do have these which can seemingly do better for their sizes at 46A: http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13304.html
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I tried going to EV Components website but it times out. Did you have contact with them recently?
Hey, sorry I haven't visited the forums in a few days. To answer your question, I bought through their website. It appears to be running for me as of today. Give it another try? Or does it time out when you try to order? I did also contact them over the winter to ask about the status of my order, and get responses within a day when emailing them directly to the address listed on their site, contact@evcomponents.com.
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Thanks, it is working again. It was down for about a week though!
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No luck. The tag was cut out and all that was left was the last digit of the UPC. I tried looking on the internet for anything similar and nobody appears to be making tool bags like this.
Thanks for checking!
-Don- Reno, NV
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Thanks, it is working again. It was down for about a week though!
Link down again!
I just now checked.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The entire website seems to be malfunctioning.
-Crissa
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The entire website seems to be malfunctioning.
-Crissa
It now works again, if anybody is interested, see here. (http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13304.html)
That 6.6 KW 4th gen charger looks interesting.
-Don- Reno, NV
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The entire website seems to be malfunctioning.
-Crissa
It now works again, if anybody is interested, see here. (http://www.tccharger.com/EN/product/13304.html)
That 6.6 KW 4th gen charger looks interesting.
-Don- Reno, NV
I was looking at that too, it's a lot more compact than the HK-J model. The 46A limit means it's going to max out at no more than 5.3 kW at Zero's 116 volts, though.
Still, it looks to have roughly the same dimensions as my TSM2500-derived 2.5 kW charge tank, so if it fits under the same plastics it might be a good drop-in replacement. Adding the OBC would get me into 6 kW territory. I've heard that people have been able to fit 2 x TC HK-J 3300W's under there, though, which would be even better. Haven't yet seen an install thread for that, but I'll keep searching the older posts.
Speaking of those HK-J 3.3 kW's, has anyone used the 84V versions that max out at 40A and have an upper voltage limit of 116? 40A x 116v = 4.6 kW, which would be nice.
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I was looking at that too, it's a lot more compact than the HK-J model. The 46A limit means it's going to max out at no more than 5.3 kW at Zero's 116 volts, though.
That's what you want it to do. You want the charge current to drop off near the ends. That's why they usually spec charge rates to 85% SOC. They must slow down near the top. If it doesn't, either the battery gets damaged or worse--catches fire or explodes.
4.6 KW sounds like a lot at 99% SOC! Perhaps too much, if anything. I charge at 1.3 KW at above 95% SOC when I start with ~7.9 KW.
Your BMS will not allow that 5.3 KW at the top!
-Don- Reno, NV
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Good to know, but what I was getting at is that it’s a less powerful charger than the 6.6 kW HK-J at the relatively low voltages that Zero’s operate. 5.3 kW at 116 vdc (46A) vs 9.2 kW (80A) on the HK-J 84V, leaving aside whether you would ever actually want to draw that much power from one.
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Good to know, but what I was getting at is that it’s a less powerful charger than the 6.6 kW HK-J at the relatively low voltages that Zero’s operate. 5.3 kW at 116 vdc (46A) vs 9.2 kW (80A) on the HK-J 84V, leaving aside whether you would ever actually want to draw that much power from one.
After you have it programmed for a Zero, I would expect it to charge about the same as a Zero charger at the same KW spec at the same SOC.
-Don- Cold Springs Valley, NV
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After reading the "New TC chargers coming to market (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10081)" thread on this sub-forum, I now see what you mean. At $1,500 for the 6.6 kW version, though, a DigiNow SC setup or even a 6 kW charge tank starts making a lot more sense. If it were $800 I would consider it.
*mod edit* added link for context
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That's what you want it to do. You want the charge current to drop off near the ends. That's why they usually spec charge rates to 85% SOC. They must slow down near the top. If it doesn't, either the battery gets damaged or worse--catches fire or explodes.
4.6 KW sounds like a lot at 99% SOC! Perhaps too much, if anything. I charge at 1.3 KW at above 95% SOC when I start with ~7.9 KW.
Your BMS will not allow that 5.3 KW at the top!
-Don- Reno, NV
Don, the battery limits the current by rising in voltage. It slows itself down in normal charging conditions by *being* at a higher voltage, not the charger slowing down. The charger does not slow it down as it fills, the physics of the battery does. (Side note: yes chargers do have limits and the CC/CV charge process technically limits current by changing the charge voltage) A battery can measure 116VDC while charging and that does not mean it is anywhere near 99% SOC. I believe they usually spec charge rates to ~80-85% because that is typically after where the CC (constant current) part of the charge terminates--and every battery is different past that point (even the same battery under different conditions) and the charge current has reduced itself by almost half on the curve. But as an example: as a battery degrades, it may begin and continue measuring 116V as early as 60% (perhaps earlier) while undergoing a fast charge all the way until it is at 100%. 4.6kW would be very little for most SR batteries "at 116V" because 116V is not necessarily equivalent to 90-100% while charging.
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZNYHl.png)
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Don, the battery limits the current by rising in voltage. It slows itself down in normal charging conditions by *being* at a higher voltage, not the charger slowing down.
What did I say that made you think I didn't understand that?
But it ends up being the same difference, the charge rate (charge current) goes down a lot near the end regardless of the cause.
But I am no expert on EV chargers. I cannot claim I totally understand exactly how they work.
So one thing perhaps you could explain to me is the programming of the charger. What is it programed to do at various rates? Didn't I hear here that it switches from CC to CV? Where at and why?
And since the current drops down a lot near the end, why was it necessary for my non-CANBUS external chargers to totally turn off at 95% SOC? What would happen if they just let them charge to 100 SOC since the charge current will automatically drop down anyway?
-Don- Reno, NV
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It just sounded like you assumed the charger itself had to lower its output when its output dropping is just a byproduct. "your bms will not allow that 5.3kW at the top" "4.6kW sounds like a lot at 99%". multiplying the constant charge current by the maximum voltage of the battery is a good quick check of peak charging power, and it seemed that you took that for 99%=~116V while charging.
I don't know elcon's general programming specifically, but I know at some point it is basically a CC/CV charger with extra protections hopefully based on best practices. CC/CV is pretty simple--it just describes two limits while charging and how it approaches them. Most power supplies that have a current limit and adjustable voltage are already capable of CC/CV, albeit with possible overshoot.
If you want a fully charged battery at 116V (or so), 116V would be your CV setting. If you pick a certain rate in amps (say 30 amps) to charge that your charger and battery are capable of (wiring, bms, contactor, cells, etc.) this would be your CC setting, or limit. To push this current, the charger switches "on and off" and dumps charge very rapidly, effectively "setting" a voltage output. This voltage output is of course still tied from charger to battery terminals so the power that is coming out is only a slight voltage differential along the power wires from the battery voltage, with lots of current. Even though you set it to output 116V, the current is too low to maintain that voltage while charging the battery. By monitoring and carefully controlling that rapid switching, the voltage differential is varied and causes ONLY enough current so that it does not surpass your 30Amp CC limit. If at any point the voltage reaches the set CV limit, the charger is still rapidly switching--but only to maintain that voltage now, and no higher. As this goes on the battery is depositing charge and the current begins to lower because the voltage differential is smaller because the switching duty cycle doesn't need to be as high to maintain that voltage. Switching between CC and CV is more or less automatic as they are both limits. Some chargers may bounce between CC and CV a few times (typically lower quality) when hitting their limits, and they may overshoot their CV target in tiny pulses. That being said, by design I believe diginow's elcons "bounce" and reduce their power level (by lowering voltage which causes lower current) a few times when approaching full and I'm told this has something to do with balancing.
Ideally it would pay attention to charger, battery cell, and ambient temperature (to reduce the charging rate), balance (to give the BMS whatever conditions it can best balance at before reaching CV and stop charging in an emergency if one cell rises too fast), voltage lift while charging (to see if the battery is even hooked up and how much impedance is there), and voltage measurement independent of the power wires.
I imagine your non-canbus chargers did that primarily because of not communicating and knowing the balance. The difference in voltage between 95% and 100% is so slight that a charger has to be very careful if even one cell was out of balance. The BMS and DC/DC converter put a small load on the battery and perhaps higher when it starts to balance which may add to this complexity?
I'm no expert either, just hopefully adding to the discussion and understanding.
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(https://zeromanual.com/images/2/27/LW_ZeroChargerEnableAtHarness_2018-09-25.jpg)
Has anybody here used the above mention hack? I would like to know what it does and if it would be useful for what I want to do. And that is to be able to charge without using the OBC and with the key removed. I want to be able to enable and disable (by unplugging the OBC) the extra 1.3 KW OBC charge as required.
Does the above switch simply close the contactor (even when key is removed) or does it do more or something else?
The reason I am asking is because I purchased a couple of 3.3 KW Econs today, all programmed up for my Zero SR. There could be times where I need to leave with the key and cannot charge at the 7.9 KW because many J Stns have a 6.6 KW (or less) limit. I have my two 3.3 Elcons wired to the motor controller via Anderson Connectors.
I realize there are other ways to solve this problem, such as the ChargePoint I used here today. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/217070) It says it can do "6.6 KW per port", so all I would need is to use both ports, using two J adapters (I do own four of them, but I have three in Reno right now). That's the very best way when possible. But I want some flexibility of my charge rate, so I can always charge as much as possible without "busting" as they say in Blackjack.
BTW, at the above mentioned J-station (my Plugshare linkg above). I did try the full 7.9 KWs to see what would happen. The chargepoint was working and even showed that I was charge a 7.X KW. It worked great for about two minutes at that rate and went dead. It self re-set, so no harm done. I simply unplugged and re-plugged back in at 6.6 KW (I disconnected the OBC and left the key on).
I will use my two old 2.5 KW chargers on my DS, and charge it at 6.3 KW from now on. No real issue there, but I am getting very close to 1C on that bike.
So what does the above switch actually do? I want to make sure I understand what it does before I add it to my Zero SR. Anybody here using it?
-Don- Auburn, CA
Greetings friend! My number of wires of my connector (2014 ZeroS) is different from what is shown in your photo. What can I do to activate an additional charger without turning on the regular (OBC)?
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Greetings friend! My number of wires of my connector (2014 ZeroS) is different from what is shown in your photo. What can I do to activate an additional charger without turning on the regular (OBC)?
Just turn the bike on and leave the key in. I don't know of another way if your bike is different than shown.
-Don- Reno, NV