ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: shayan on December 13, 2019, 01:35:47 AM
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https://www.blinkcharging.com/single-post/2019/12/12/Zero-Motorcycles-Dealer-Embraces-the-Future-of-Electric-Motorsports-with-the-Installation-of-Blink-EV-Charging-Stations
I'm not sure what the current/voltage rating of existing L2 chargers are to know if this 80A charger is a significant improvement or not.
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Most L2 stations seem to be standardizing on 32A (7.68kW), which is also the limit of the typical EV on-board charger (Bolt, Leaf, Kona, Tesla model 3 SR, Clarity, ...)
80A would require a 100A circuit (19.2kW) and would be a large improvement for vehicles that can accept it. Theoretically a 7.2 brick could be charged in 22.5 minutes and 14.4 brick could be charged in 45 minutes.
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Correct, but this is one station that could work for the 12kW charger on the SR/F. And if at some point the 12kW capability gets onto the other battery packs too.
But this would be great option, since Zero does not have DC fast charge capability.
-Shayan
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https://www.blinkcharging.com/single-post/2019/12/12/Zero-Motorcycles-Dealer-Embraces-the-Future-of-Electric-Motorsports-with-the-Installation-of-Blink-EV-Charging-Stations
I'm not sure what the current/voltage rating of existing L2 chargers are to know if this 80A charger is a significant improvement or not.
Blink is the most common chargers in this area, but I have yet to see them anywhere else.
Guess whose bike this is in the photo here at a Blink charge station. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/8506)
-Don- Tucson, AZ
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I'm not sure what the current/voltage rating of existing L2 chargers are to know if this 80A charger is a significant improvement or not.
If the Harley LW could handle true Lever Two charging at 80 amps, it could then charge faster on J-1772 than it would on CCS. So then the so-called "slow AC charge" will be faster than the CCS fast charge.
The Harley can only charge at 12 KW on CCS. The Harley CCS stations at HD dealers can only do 15 KW.
But 240 VAC at 80 amps is 19,200 watts or 19.2 KW.
That means on at least on some bikes, the J1772 at 80 amps could even be faster than CCS.
But my Energica can handle 26 KW CCS charging, and that is amazing. And the Blink "slow" AC charging at 80 amps will be almost the same speed as that, at 19.2 KW.
The problem is that the internal AC chargers on motorcycles will have to be a lot larger. Even the Zero SR/f Premium with charge tank is only 12 KW, let Blink can do 19.2 KW.
And how large of an AC charger can fit on a motorcycle? The SR/F P. with Charge tank (12 KW) shows the real problem, at least for now.
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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Curt is right, this 19.2kW station will be really nice for SR/F owners who opt for the additional 6kW charger. Now they just need about 200 more of them across the US to make an impact.
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@Curt @Morgan
Absolutely! Only if the batteries can overcome the 1C limitations. But if we consider nominal capacities of those packs, the charging times could actually be better.
@Don I'm assuming that bike is your 2017 Orange Zero DS ZF 6.5 :D
Also yes, the A/C onboard chargers have to get bigger to be able to handle more input A/C (and convert it to DC). But i guess adding a A/C charger to a dealer or a commercial outlet is cheaper to them than a CCS charger.
I guess the A/C chargers over time have gotten smaller, more efficient, cheaper and lighter over time, just like the battery packs have. And if that trend follows, then it could mean better chargers in the future which could fit in the same space as whats available on a larger bike like the SR/F. Though, obviously, it can probably never get on par with the speeds of a DC charger.
To maintain reasonable charging speeds on an A/C charger, the only way to make the bike a better overall package would be by having better range with the same kWh of battery capacity by making the battery much lighter and making the bikes more slippery through air.
-Shayan
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As I see it, onboard AC chargers are a means to an end. It makes far more sense to have offboard stations converting the power to DC at the requested voltage so your bike isn't burdened with cumbersome AC conversion units. What would have been really cool is if Blink made these stations 5 years ago.
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You are right Morgan, they are too late in the game and i guess most bikes are now going to have DC fast charge available by default. In some weird ways Harley has it right. If its home you will mostly be charging overnight and if you are riding it will mostly be DC charging. But with lesser DC chargers out there in some parts, that combo is a bit too early in the game maybe :)
-Shayan
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H-D would have it right if the US infrastructure supported it. As such their bike is either designed by an idealist or an idiot. Probably a little from column A, a little from column B. A major problem is their DC Fast charging is EXTREMELY throttled. An owner reported back that it charged as high as 21kW.. but only from like 0-30%. Then it scaled back to 1C. Then at like 60% it scaled down to .5C. In the end, at stations that bill you by the minute, it can cost as much as $15 to charge a LiveWire in an hour. That's no way to do things.
As the great 1999 film, Mystery Men, put it, "The Blue Raja : All I'm saying is, when we split the cheque three ways the steak-eater picks the pocket of the salad-man."
In the same way that stations that bill by the minute pick the pocket of the smaller-batteried motorcycle. It makes infinitely more sense to charge at stations that bill by the kWh. However we're not necessarily spoiled for choice at the moment so we take what we can get.
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Plus one for the MM quote ^-^
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@Don I'm assuming that bike is your 2017 Orange Zero DS ZF 6.5 :D
Yep. Last year, when I was here. I like to take an RV Trip down here every year just before Xmas. IOW, just before all the snowbirds come to southern AZ.
I have the same bike with me now, of course.
And it's in the mid 70's F. here today and tomorrow. This is probably the very peak of the riding season in this area.
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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Yup, I sure would like to ride my Livewire up and down Lemon Mountain.
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As I see it, onboard AC chargers are a means to an end. It makes far more sense to have offboard stations converting the power to DC at the requested voltage so your bike isn't burdened with cumbersome AC conversion units. What would have been really cool is if Blink made these stations 5 years ago.
But the J1772 will always have one big advantage I don't think there is an EV made that cannot use J1772 in one simple method or another. I have charged all four of my EVs with J1772. Both my Zeros, the Energica and my Tesla Model Three.
J-1772 is a very good standard for all to use, even if rather slow.
The problem with DC charging is there is no standard. Or too many standards.
What would be great is if they could agree on a level three DC standard. They have a standard with AC charging and that's the J1772.
The problem is Zero wants to use a low voltage and Tesla wants to use high voltage batteries. Then in the middle, we have CCS and others. But they can all use J1772.
So I don't think J1772 is going away anytime soon. It's also very handy for home charging where more than 90% of us do most of our charging.
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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+1 for that MM quote and it happens to me all the time!
With Harley's approach it certainly avoids needing any 1.3kW+ charger and the extra weight on the bike, because if we know that thing has DC fast charging, we would want to try to plan our trips that way and only AC charge after the ride for the day is over. But yeah throttling it down isnt going to help much with that.
@Don
Any recommendations on good routes around Phoenix? I'll be around that area the next couple of weeks. Anything up/around the hills/mountains there?
-Shayan
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Any recommendations on good routes around Phoenix? I'll be around that area the next couple of weeks. Anything up/around the hills/mountains there?
I make sure I never get close to Phoenix. There are many ways to avoid it at the cost of some miles, but you will save time. It depends on where you're coming from.
From Payson, I took the highway to Roosevelt Lake to get to Casa Grande to avoid Phoenix. I am headed to Auburn, CA, (from Reno via AZ) but staying south. Organ Pipe Cactus Nat'l Monument next and then Yuma. Then Salton Sea Park.
I hear you also want to avoid Indian Springs. That is already too close to Phoenix these days.
Sorry for the thread hijack!
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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Sadly, Harley got it all wrong by not having true L2 capability. L2's are everywhere, DCFC's are not and those that are out there are way too expensive They lost a sale from me because of this.
H-D would have it right if the US infrastructure supported it. As such their bike is either designed by an idealist or an idiot. Probably a little from column A, a little from column B. A major problem is their DC Fast charging is EXTREMELY throttled. An owner reported back that it charged as high as 21kW.. but only from like 0-30%. Then it scaled back to 1C. Then at like 60% it scaled down to .5C. In the end, at stations that bill you by the minute, it can cost as much as $15 to charge a LiveWire in an hour. That's no way to do things.
As the great 1999 film, Mystery Men, put it, "The Blue Raja : All I'm saying is, when we split the cheque three ways the steak-eater picks the pocket of the salad-man."
In the same way that stations that bill by the minute pick the pocket of the smaller-batteried motorcycle. It makes infinitely more sense to charge at stations that bill by the kWh. However we're not necessarily spoiled for choice at the moment so we take what we can get.
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@Don no worries on the thread hijack. I shouldn't have asked the question on riding in Phoenix in the first place.
I guess Harley was trying to rely on their dealers installing DCFC stations and a growing network if these through things like electricity America or so. So it might not look like a good option now but could be eventually good. Just playing devil's advocate here. At that price tag I guess they dont intend to sell much anyway.
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@Don no worries on the thread hijack. I shouldn't have asked the question on riding in Phoenix in the first place.
I guess Harley was trying to rely on their dealers installing DCFC stations and a growing network if these through things like electricity America or so. So it might not look like a good option now but could be eventually good. Just playing devil's advocate here. At that price tag I guess they dont intend to sell much anyway.
IMO, Harley should have the CCS at all HD shops regardless if they sell the LW. With the number of HD dealers around a LW could go almost anywhere if all their shops had the CCS.
And so could my Energica. ;D
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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@Don no worries on the thread hijack. I shouldn't have asked the question on riding in Phoenix in the first place.
I guess Harley was trying to rely on their dealers installing DCFC stations and a growing network if these through things like electricity America or so. So it might not look like a good option now but could be eventually good. Just playing devil's advocate here. At that price tag I guess they dont intend to sell much anyway.
IMO, Harley should have the CCS at all HD shops regardless if they sell the LW. With the number of HD dealers around a LW could go almost anywhere if all their shops had the CCS.
And so could my Energica. ;D
There are 4 dealers in Northern New England. If you look at the harley dealer map, you'll see all are in the south, leaving vast portions of NH, VT and maine with no dealers.
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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@Don I'm assuming that bike is your 2017 Orange Zero DS ZF 6.5 :D
Today, I used my Blink card for the first time ever. I ordered the card after my last trip down here last year at the same time.
I went to a different Blink charger today and got an entire 0.29 cents worth of a charge!
Look at the bike (and date of the check-in) here. (https://www.plugshare.com/location/9048)
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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Oh yeah for Blink members its just 0.29/kWh! But it only seems to charge at 5kW max.
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Oh yeah for Blink members its just 0.29/kWh! But it only seems to charge at 5kW max.
The most I will ever draw from Blink around here is around 3.4 KW (as I was doing yesterday). But I didn't know the rather large machine only did 5KW (only 21 amps at 240 VAC).
But that 29 cents seems expensive to me when I compare to Reno, NV or Auburn, CA where every J-1772 I have seen are free for anybody to use and are good to 7KW or so. But they do charge to charge between the two places such as in Truckee, CA which is a tourist trap area. But there, it is cheaper to charge than it is to park where they have no charging!
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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That twenty-nine cents is cheap compared to the coin-op charger near me that's 25¢ per 15min.
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That twenty-nine cents is cheap compared to the coin-op charger near me that's 25¢ per 15min.
I have never seen a coin operated charger before. What brand is it and what's its location? I would like to look it up on Plugshare.
BTW, most often CCS charging is more expensive than gasoline on motorcycles. That's often 30 cents per minute, but the charge rate is usually close to 25KW. So that is around a 30 minute charge on my Energica or around $9.00 for around 60 miles on the freeway (at best, the charge rate will drop near the end).
My Triumph Trophy SE can go that far on around a gallon of gasoline. It has gotten 61 MPG before and the norm is above 50 MPG.
OTOH, when I charge the Energica at home in Reno, it only costs 11.7 cents per KWH to charge the 11.7 KWH <true "nominal" capacity> battery. so that's a full charge from empty to full for around $1.40. The two "11.7" is just a coincidence.
-Don- Tucson, AZ (RV)
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The coin-op charger is up Zayante at the store, but I've seen them in photos elsewhere so it must be a thing.
-Crissa
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@Don
Somehow Blink price went up 10 cents, or was i dreaming about the 29 cents per kWh?
-Shayan
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@Don
Somehow Blink price went up 10 cents, or was i dreaming about the 29 cents per kWh?
-Shayan
IIRC, they also charge "parking time" not only KWHs used. I used less than a KWH, but I will not go broke over the 29 cents.
Hello Donald,
Your charging session at Eckstron-Columbus Branch Library, has ended after a duration of 00:16:09.
You have received 0.76 kWh. Additionally you had an idle occupancy time of 00:00:01 charged at $0.02 per 30 sec..
Your total combined cost for this charging session is $0.29.
Thank you for charging with Blink!
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Interesting. So if u had charged upto (consumed actually) 1kWh you would've been charged 30 cents?
https://www.blinkcharging.com/ev-charging-fee
-Shayan
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Interesting. So if u had charged upto (consumed actually) 1kWh you would've been charged 30 cents?
https://www.blinkcharging.com/ev-charging-fee
-Shayan
You would get a much better idea if you check plugshare: (https://www.plugshare.com/location/9051)
"Blink Members: $0.39 per kwh
Blink Guests: $0.49 per kwh
Parking Rate: $0.02 per 30 seconds
Parking Rate Cap: N/A
So add 4 cents per minute just to be using it. Also, the higher rate than what Blink themselves charges. IOW, some of the cash goes to the owners who installed the thing. But I am not at all concerned about the few extra pennies I am charged.
-Don- OPCNM, AZ