ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: Richard230 on January 22, 2020, 09:07:45 PM
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Not that it is any big deal, but the insurance premium for my (1cc ::) ) Zero for this year has gone up again. I have had all of my electric motorcycles insured by Progressive insurance during the past 11 years, but with third-party liability coverage only, in the amount of $250K/$500K. When I insured my Electric Motorsport GPR-S in 2009, the yearly premium was only $5 :o. Since then it has been increasing a little every year and this year it went from $71 to $79.
Like I said, not a big deal, but I was fascinated to see that my 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500's insurance premium (which is on the same policy) dropped from $56 last year to $22 this year. ??? I would love to know how insurance underwriters determine what insurance premiums they will be charging every year. It must be an interesting process.
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I would say that hyper early adapters are more cautious, and as the penetration of e-bike increases, the average drivers looks more and more like the average bike driver...
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Not that it is any big deal, but the insurance premium for my (1cc ::) ) Zero for this year has gone up again. I have had all of my electric motorcycles insured by Progressive insurance during the past 11 years, but with third-party liability coverage only, in the amount of $250K/$500K. When I insured my Electric Motorsport GPR-S in 2009, the yearly premium was only $5 :o. Since then it has been increasing a little every year and this year it went from $71 to $79.
Like I said, not a big deal, but I was fascinated to see that my 2011 Royal Enfield Bullet 500's insurance premium (which is on the same policy) dropped from $56 last year to $22 this year. ??? I would love to know how insurance underwriters determine what insurance premiums they will be charging every year. It must be an interesting process.
You might call Progressive and ask for details. I have always insured my bikes with just liability. When I got my 2018 FXS insured, I had a super helpful rep that told me that it was the exact same cost for me to get liability only or to get comprehensive. Cost was in the $70 range. I can't recall if they stated directly or I just assumed that there is a minimum price that they would write the policy for. That wouldn't match up with you paying less than $79 for your Royal Enfield. Pricing on insurance mystifies me, and I imagine the insurance companies prefer it that way.
Not that I've ever used comprehensive insurance, but I'm guessing that I may have been able to get it for "free" on past policies, but nobody's mentioned it to me. Progressive has had the best price I've found to insure my Zero.
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The few times that I have inquired about the cost of premiums rising year-to-year, I have been told that it reflects the cost of doing business in California. :(
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For my 2014S, my notice for 2020 premiums (Geico) was nearly a 2x increase over 2019 --- with no obvious cause (no tickets, no accidents, albeit I'm a year older). I phoned a rep, who attributed the increase to changes in CA law that affected liability. When I asked which laws (so that I could send letters to my CA assembly member and senator), the only specific one the rep could offer was the law pertaining to texting while driving --- which seemed a bit of a reach to apply to motorcycles.
The note above regarding a minimum policy cost is something I found to be true at Geico, and I used the web quotes to test combinations of insurance types and deductibles to just get past that minimum level. For 2020, that Geico minimum appears to have jumped to >~$105 per 12 months, up from 2019's $75 though I might not have sampled the minimum set.
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Might as well revitalize this thread, because it's another year later.
I chatted up (email annoyed) my local State Farm agency and found some interesting information.
Because Electric Motorcycles have no known 'CC' their pre-underwritting formula for "gasoline engine equivalent" involves some multiplication. (I feel perhaps too much multiplication)
My 2020 LiveWire is insured as a 6,300 cubic centimeters 525 horsepower ICE motorcycle.
A 2020 Zero SR/F would solve out to 6,600cc and 550 hp.
Needless to say I'm trying to find an avenue to get the underwriters to either cap or curve their formula.
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That's... How do they even... That's... How?
-Crissa
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When I first started riding an electric motorcycle in 2009, Progressive gave my Electric Motorsport GPR-S a 1cc size and charged me a yearly premium of only $5 for 250K/500K third party liability insurance. It has gone up every year since then. Now I am being charged for the same insurance by Progressive a premium that is $20 a year more than they charge me for my BMW R1200RS. ???
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Because Electric Motorcycles have no known 'CC' their pre-underwritting formula for "gasoline engine equivalent" involves some multiplication.
My 2020 LiveWire is insured as a 6,300 cubic centimeters 525 horsepower ICE motorcycle.
A 2020 Zero SR/F would solve out to 6,600cc and 550 hp.
This makes sense—as in now I understand the ridiculous rates Progressive quoted me for an SR or SR/S rather than it makes logical sense. Their quote (including comprehensive coverage) was more than twice what I pay for my BMW R9T Racer, and I think that is already pricey.
Is there anyone who can advocate for electric bikes owners to the insurance industry or is that wasted effort?
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Calling a LiveWire 525hp is ludicrous when it is around 105hp.
They should start from the advertised horsepower and work backward to find the equivalent ICE displacement. The SR/F at 110hp is comparable to 600cc.
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I filed a complaint with the Wisconsin Office of the Commissioner of Insurance. Which, if effective, is only going to influence State Farm.
So if you get a weird number - welcome to the bleeding edge - and see what can be done to have them justify that number rather than just moving on.
State Farm does start with the advertised electric horsepower... and multiplies it by 5 - their justification is because of the torque involved in generating that horsepower to get the gasoline equivalence.
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I just got a quote from Geico for $1100/year for full coverage on a new 2021 SR/S. Yikes! I've been with Geico for 30 years, I'm 72 years old, no accidents for 30 years, and only one ticket, 20 years ago, for 45 in a 25. WTH?!!
It's an expensive bike and I'm sure it must be classified as a sport bike, which it is, but DAMN!
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I just got a quote from Geico for $1100/year for full coverage on a new 2021 SR/S. Yikes! I've been with Geico for 30 years, I'm 72 years old, no accidents for 30 years, and only one ticket, 20 years ago, for 45 in a 25. WTH?!!
It's an expensive bike and I'm sure it must be classified as a sport bike, which it is, but DAMN!
I have a similar resume with Progressive except I am older than you are. However I buy my bike's with cash so I don't need full coverage and therefore only request $250K/$500K liability-only insurance. For that insurance I am paying $152 a year for my 2018 Zero S, which is about $40 more than I paid last year. >:( The premium for the same insurance cover for my much faster and more powerful 2016 BMW R1200RS however is only $102. Go figure! In 2009 when I insured my first electric motorcycle with Progressive, insuring my 2009 Electric Motorsport GPR-S was only $5 for the same insurance that year. ;D But that didn't last long. The next year it was $15 and has been going up every year since then. Kind of makes you wonder what the future holds for electric motorcycle insurance premiums. :(
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I haven't had a loan for a vehicle for 40 years now. I always pay cash. And yes, I could opt for liability-only, which I have many times for bikes that were only worth $5K-$6K or less, but liability-only on a brand new 2021 $20K+ bike is more of a risk than I am willing to take. I'd rather do without the bike.
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I just got a quote from Geico for $1100/year for full coverage on a new 2021 SR/S. Yikes! I've been with Geico for 30 years, I'm 72 years old, no accidents for 30 years, and only one ticket, 20 years ago, for 45 in a 25. WTH?!!
It's an expensive bike and I'm sure it must be classified as a sport bike, which it is, but DAMN!
I got a quote from Progressive -- way, way cheaper for the same full coverage values.
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Might as well revitalize this thread, because it's another year later.
I chatted up (email annoyed) my local State Farm agency and found some interesting information.
Because Electric Motorcycles have no known 'CC' their pre-underwritting formula for "gasoline engine equivalent" involves some multiplication. (I feel perhaps too much multiplication)
My 2020 LiveWire is insured as a 6,300 cubic centimeters 525 horsepower ICE motorcycle.
A 2020 Zero SR/F would solve out to 6,600cc
Interesting. Insurance for electric motorbikes over here (Germany) is based on the maximum sustainable power rating. In case of my 2017 SR that comes down to a motorbike with 22 kw, roughly putting it into the pool with a 250cc ice bike. Insurance premiums reflect that.
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Might as well revitalize this thread, because it's another year later.
I chatted up (email annoyed) my local State Farm agency and found some interesting information.
Because Electric Motorcycles have no known 'CC' their pre-underwritting formula for "gasoline engine equivalent" involves some multiplication. (I feel perhaps too much multiplication)
My 2020 LiveWire is insured as a 6,300 cubic centimeters 525 horsepower ICE motorcycle.
A 2020 Zero SR/F would solve out to 6,600cc
Interesting. Insurance for electric motorbikes over here (Germany) is based on the maximum sustainable power rating. In case of my 2017 SR that comes down to a motorbike with 22 kw, roughly putting it into the pool with a 250cc ice bike. Insurance premiums reflect that.
I suspect that EV insurance premiums in the U.S. are based more upon the liability fear of the company underwriters, which are likely based upon news media reports of EV accidents and fires. That plus,insurance company competition comparing the average premiums of other companies in the industry and then trying to pick and choose who they should insure and what they should charge to make the most profit from their customers. ::)
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I paid $75 for comprehensive coverage on my 2018 FXS. I actually would go with liability only, but they said it was the same price to add comprehensive. I'll definitely keep an eye out for changes when the policy renews. I agree the 5x HP calculation by State Farm is ridiculous. By that formula, the little FXS would be 230 HP., but makes less torque than the 115 HP MT-09. To compare the SR/F, a Triumph Rocket III produces more torque with just 148 HP, not anywhere near 550 HP. Have you tried this argument?
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I just looked into insuring my 2015 S. For state minimum liability (25/50/25) and 1k medical:
Progressive: 119/yr
Geico: 215/yr
Statefarm: 89.18/yr
I'm 25 and live in middle of nowhere South Dakota. No violations on record.
FYI Statefarm told me they considered it a 800cc bike, so they have seemed to have fixed their ridiculous 5x HP calculation.
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An S is a 250 at best, it is no 800cc bike x-x
(I have an 800cc Ducati to compare it to, my spouse's!)
-Crissa
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An S is a 250 at best, it is no 800cc bike x-x
(I have an 800cc Ducati to compare it to, my spouse's!)
-Crissa
In my opinion my S has very similar performance and top speed to my KTM 390 Duke, although there is no question that you would have to stir the KTM's gearbox a lot to keep up with a Zero. ;)
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An S will out accelerate pretty much any A2 class bike, so that includes stuff like the Duke/RC390, MT/R-3, Ninja 300. Even the quickest 250 (excluding the old inline 4s and two strokes) is going to be a couple seconds slower to 60.
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Just because an EV is quick doesn't make it more powerful. Or more risky; not like you have to work the gearbox to remain safe in traffic or curves or if someone cuts you off,
-Crissa
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No one is saying it is. The whole idea of basing insurance costs off engine capacity makes no sense to begin with, for example a W800 is no where near as fast as an R6 and an R6 would destroy a Harley with over twice the displacement, but if that's how it is and an equivalent needs be made for an electric bike then it should be based off performance (because they make the false assumption that higher displacement = higher performance = greater risk of an accident).
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No one is saying it is. The whole idea of basing insurance costs off engine capacity makes no sense to begin with, for example a W800 is no where near as fast as an R6 and an R6 would destroy a Harley with over twice the displacement, but if that's how it is and an equivalent needs be made for an electric bike then it should be based off performance (because they make the false assumption that higher displacement = higher performance = greater risk of an accident).
It would make more sense if they based their insurance premiums upon actual claims for the specific motorcycles being insured - or better yet on the driving and accident record of the rider. But no doubt that is too much trouble for the underwriters to do. It is much easier for them to pick an engine displacement out of thin air and create a premium from that. :( As I have mentioned before when I insured my first electric motorcycle 12 years ago with Progressive they gave it a 1cc displacement and charged me $5 for the year. ;D
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Here in the UK they assess it based on a whole bunch of factors, and outright power isn't given a particularly high loading as it's been shown to not actually be a significant factor in the vast majority of claims. It's stuff like expensive replacement parts and labour, and stealability, that make premiums high here, which is why Zeros are priced like the latest litre sports bikes :(
Cas :)
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Here in the UK they assess it based on a whole bunch of factors, and outright power isn't given a particularly high loading as it's been shown to not actually be a significant factor in the vast majority of claims. It's stuff like expensive replacement parts and labour, and stealability, that make premiums high here, which is why Zeros are priced like the latest litre sports bikes :(
Cas :)
But on the other hand, aren't Zero plastic parts a lot cheaper than similar parts on the latest liter bikes? While Zero's may need to be replaced if a rider center-punches a lorry, the usual tip-over shouldn't cause as much damage and fairing parts should be cheap and easy to repair, compared with both Japanese and European motorcycles. Perhaps insurance underwriters have been watching too many of those YouTube and TV news reports showing EVs catching on fire when charging and when crashing into other vehicles when on "auto pilot" and are more concern about their third-party liability exposure? ::)
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Almost nobody claims for minor prangs here because a) we usually have excesses, er, in excess of £500 so it's almost never worth it, and b) you lose your coveted no-claims discount in short order which is worth as much again over a couple of years. Which means they're left just looking at the near-or-total-writeoff costs, and Zeros are literally twice as expensive as the typical competition in the market for their performance. So you pay 1000cc premiums on 600cc performance. Pain in the arse. As for the insane premiums I've been quoted for the FXS I just have nop idea how they're coming up with the same figure as the SR/F unless it really is that much more of a liability.
Cas :)
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What sort of numbers are you getting? I looked back in the UK Insurance thread and saw that you're 47 with over 15 years NCB and 30 years experience, with those sort of stats I'm really surprised if they're giving you ridiculous quotes. As I posted in the other thread, my DS is cheaper to insure than my 125 that was valued at less than half what the Zero cost with just the addition of 2 years experience, NCB, and going from age 27 to 29 (and still on a provisional licence).
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Yep, I'm like, the perfect customer. 47, clean license, 30 years riding, 15 years+ NCB, own house, married + 2 kids, boring job in IT, have car, live in the quiet countryside of Somerset, do about 5000 miles a year these days on the bikes. Last quotes I got from Lexham for the SR/F - month ago maybe? - was £381.89, and an FX/S was £392.36 (!!???). I pay £180 for the X-Adv, £70 for the 690 Duke R. It wipes out any potential gains from not burning petrol, road tax, or servicing, and then some. It's a farce. If those are the quotes I'm getting what is anyone else getting and how could anyone justify paying it?
Cas :)
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That SR/F price doesn't seem that unreasonable, it's almost double the value of the X-Adv and a fair bit more powerful. No idea what's going on with that FXS quote though, that's nearly what I pay (not including add-ons) for my DS (so a similar value). I would expect it to be much closer to the X-Adv cost.
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I'd still really only be expecting to pay £300 tops for the SR/F. The FX/S quote seems like some sort of error.
Cas :)