ElectricMotorcycleForum.com
Makes And Models => Zero Motorcycles Forum | 2013+ => Topic started by: andrewcsp on January 28, 2020, 05:45:17 AM
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Hello,
A little under 3 months and 2000 miles on my Zero SR/F. It appears to be dead!
I had brought the bike into the dealer on Thursday 23 January because the amber engine warning light had been on. I collected it on Saturday 25 January and was told that no problem could be found with the bike (engine warning light had disappeared by itself). I was told it could simply be an electrical spike/glitch of some sort.
Over the Saturday and Sunday, I rode approximately 60 miles, no problems, no errors, no warnings (that I noticed at least).
Today, Monday 27 January, I have had dozens of warnings, ending the day with a seemingly dead bike. Scroll down to play the YouTube video and let me know if you can work out what is going on.
Here is a summary of today's events:
Morning Commute:
19 miles, 1 hour, 08:20 - 09:23
I see one "Error 43: Isolation Fault"
At the end of the commute, engine warning light is on and error codes 31,38,43 appear in the log.
See picture:
https://ibb.co/vXv3jXB (27/01/2020 09:23, After 18 miles, 1 hour commute - Errors)
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Evening Commute:
8 miles, 25 minutes, 17:57 - 18:22
I see at least 3 "Error 31: Battery Module Ineligible"
See pictures:
https://ibb.co/sPfVJvD (27/01/2020 18:25, After 8 miles, 25 minute commute - Errors) - this is identical to earlier
https://ibb.co/8r2MSyy (error 31 detail)
https://ibb.co/477WJvd (error 38 detail)
https://ibb.co/KjXWvMk (error 43 detail)
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Late Evening Commute:
15 miles, 39 minutes, 21:36 - 22:15
I see at least 6 "Error 43: Isolation Fault"
See picture:
https://ibb.co/m5n0vG8 (27/01/2020 22:17, After 15 miles, 40 minute commute - Errors) - this is identical to earlier
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After this, I switched off the ignition, parked the bike (garaged). Then I switched on the ignition, the bike dies completely (see video).
See pictures:
https://ibb.co/SJQLn7p (27/01/2020 22:21, sidestand up, bike wont run, battery red indicator)
https://ibb.co/NY62Ykb (27/01/2020 22:22, ignition on, bike dash is dead and unresponsive)
See video:
https://youtu.be/01mSAFC1trY
Video summary:
Switched on ignition
Battery showing red warning indicator
Sit on bike, raise kickstand, bike remains unresponsive, bike drive does not power on (throttle does nothing)
Errors appear:
- Error 28: 12V Low Voltage
- Error 31: Battery Module Ineligible
Lower kickstand, bike switches off entirely (despite ignition remaining on)
Plug in charge cable
Bike powers on again, yet does not show charge status, charge target (70%), or charge delay (1am)
Errors appear:
- Error 28: 12V Low Voltage;
- Error 31: Battery Module Ineligible
After this, the bike switches off entirely, we'll see if it charges (I doubt it).
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Update: In the 40 minutes it's taken me to assess, write and upload all of this. I've turned the bike ignition on again. The red battery indicator has gone and I've downloaded the bike and battery logs (attached). Have sent this to Zero and my dealer. I'm taking the bike straight back to the dealer tomorrow (assuming it will run).
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I had the exact same thing happening to my SRF after 3 months (6.000 km). It started after a ride in very wet weather and since then always returned after or during riding in the rain.
Eventually I returned it to the dealer on 10/12/2019 and they informed me end of 2019 they had to order a new cable spider something to get it fixed. Since then I haven't heard from them. The app however notified me that it's moving again so I think it's being transported back to the dealer where I should be able to pick it up (once they inform me).
So you'll have to get it fixed and you should think of a repair time of around 1 month. Mine probably took longer because of the period (christmas, newyear, ...). Oh and the fix was done by Zero HQ EU which is NL, so Zero themselves. In my case also 2 days of transport to get the bike there (and now it's on the move back to BE).
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"spider something" sounds like "spider bus" which is the core power distribution system on the SRF, and I might add has a nice tidy design.
The idea that they'd have to replace it is intriguing and I would like to know more if at all possible. You deserve a reasonable explanation and indication of damage or other outcome, and we as a whole deserve to understand the risk to our bikes.
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Update: In the 40 minutes it's taken me to assess, write and upload all of this. I've turned the bike ignition on again. The red battery indicator has gone and I've downloaded the bike and battery logs (attached). Have sent this to Zero and my dealer. I'm taking the bike straight back to the dealer tomorrow (assuming it will run).
Your attachments didn't work somehow. Feel free to DM or email me them as I'm curious how they're structured.
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It's pretty easy for a connector in a distribution weave to fail. It only takes a conductor to corrode, have been missed with the silicone grease, or whatever.
And it would cause all sorts of problems.
-Crissa
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It's pretty easy for a connector in a distribution weave to fail. It only takes a conductor to corrode, have been missed with the silicone grease, or whatever.
And it would cause all sorts of problems.
-Crissa
The spider bus is more like a set of bus bars. Different construction and failure modes.
At least it looked a lot easier to change out than the power harness on an SDS bike. But it’s not an element that should have to be replaced, typically.
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Indeed they used the name spider bus. But didn't get more information than that part being faulty due to water damage causing the insulation errors. And I had a wet ride this morning and yesterday evening and so far no CEL so looks like they were right.
I just hope they replaced it with one that is better sealed though. If not I'll be back at zero soon. Time will tell.
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Why would you call bars, a spider?
Either way though, it only takes a little fault or crack in a conductor or missing bit of waterproofing. And in most cases it probably won't matter, but...
I have some lights outside that are supposed to be waterproof, but they inevitably fail when it rains in the fall. Only the ones near the ground - it's that there are hundreds of contacts and it only takes one to fail. If I greased them all, it'd be fine, but inevitably, I miss one. At least they're only $10.
But you'll hear this sort of problem with any modern bike, as everything has lots of sensors and computers now. But once you know what you did wrong, you can fix it. Like I'll eventually fix those lights. Probably when I replace it with something more than $10 ^-^
-Crissa
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It’s an 8-way bus with a radial topology. It makes sense when you see it, and I like the nickname.
I have a photo or two but am unsure whether to share yet, been trying to confer with Zero since November unsuccessfully.
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Andrew, sorry to see that you appear to have also been bitten by this Error 43 Isolation Fault :(
Sounds like yours is more serious than my one (so far) but certainly looks like Hans and you have had almost identical issues.
Out of interest was it raining (or the at least were the roads very wet) when you got the error pop up the first time?
The bikes don't seem to be cutting out on the road which is a quite a relief.
Both Hans and yourself appear to have made it to your destination and then once you've switched it off, it decides to not start again.
Please keep us updated on what your dealer/Zero have to say.
Oli
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My earlier posts we're a bit rushed. Life is hectic enough without arriving home at 10pm to investigate a dead bike when I have to be up at 6am the following day! Can you tell I'm disappointed with Zero?! ;)
Glad to hear I'm not the only one that's suffered with this!
Zero support replied with:
I looked into the production history of your bike, and it seems to fall in the population of bikes that are at risk of a connectivity issue in the battery management board.
We'll likely be replacing that part under warranty, and diagnose further if needed.
No mention of spider cable/bus, or maybe that is the "bike management board"? In any case, they seem to be aware of this being a problem in their production run.
For now I'm riding about on a petrol loan bike until they fix this. My concern is that Zero have been incredibly slow to do anything in my experience. Getting their representatives to answer any questions is like a lottery. It has been suggested to me that I should simply refuse the bike entirely and demand a refund. I'm not at that point yet, but if they expect me to wait around patiently for months, I will not sit by quietly. The bike is not fit for purpose in my opinion if it can't handle wet weather! London is famed for it's rain!
You are indeed correct, SkyYeti. The errors on the day it died was a fairly wet day. Though it certainly wasn't a storm or unusually heavy downpour. The engine warning light also disappeared by itself the first time (which coincided with a long period of dry weather if I recall).
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me too, almost exactly like you and Hans.
very wet ride, so many errors, starting with 43, isolation.
Bike now being transported back to Zero EU HQ from UK.
Sigh.
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"battery management board" is the BMS, the circuit board that manages the battery behind the front faceplate. Much different from the "spider" power bus.
Presumably the way the board mounts onto the battery with the interconnects is flawed for some production range they're identifying.
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I think the attached picture shows the outside of the Spider Bus. This picture was taken during the rapid charger install.
Normally there is a plastic cover over it hiding the connections.
The thick braided orange cables are (presumably) for the two 3kW chargers on the premium SR/F, both the plus and minus.
The other 2 unbraided orange cables were added during the rapid charger install and are the plus and minus from the 6kW rapid charger. 2 rubber plugs came off and revealed a big connection point where the cable from the rapid charger clicked on to. Very neat design I might add.
I imagine that the 2 big rubber plugs to the left of the rapid charger cables are the connections for the powertank, which obviously carries a lot more current (hence the bigger rubber plugs). That leaves 2 more connections on the bus (Brian talked about 8 connections) and I guess that they are the 2 connections to the controller. On the inside the connections may even resemble a spider with 8 arms so maybe that is where the name comes from
like I said there is a plastic cover over it to guard the connections a bit from direct spray water coming off the back wheel. however the cover is open on the top side to allow acces of the charger cables (the 4 orange cables in the picture).
Directly above that cover is the type 2 connector. And on the side of the type 2 connector is the water drain connection where water would come out when it entered the type 2 connector. Now there is nothing connected to that water drain connection which seems a bit odd to me. rain or washing water can get into the type 2 connector quite easily as there is a gap between the red/blue charging lid and the tank plastics. that water would drop down into the type 2 connector and the out through the drain hole. If the water would then drop into the open top of the "spider bus cover" and collect in there it could cause quite some isolation errors in the cables. Especially if the "spider cover" is sealed on the bottom and sides, then you could even have standing water in there. But I didn't notice a seal on the spider cover so I guess water would just drain out there.
I've been contemplating the thought of installing a hose of some kind to that water drain connection and route it to the very bottom of the bike where the water could just drain out with no harm. But it is quite a large connection and would take something the size of a garden hose to connect to. And the thought of connecting a real (bright yellow :o ) garden hose to it doesn't seem that appealing aesthetically 8)
Now personally I do not ride when there is a chance of rain (or cold so I haven't ridden it since oktober :( ) and I only "wash" the bike using "wet wipes" called vulcanite so the chance of water getting where it is not supposed to is limited for me.
Others however do use (and should be able to I might add) when it is raining and it can really poor cats and dogs here in The Netherlands.
The second attached picture shows the drain connection on the side of the type 2 charging connector. Taking the tank plastics off is easy (just 6 accessible screws)
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Thanks @remmie that must be it indeed. They literally said behind the battery and several cables coming together.
Me and topic starter are clearly not alone, I see like 2 or even 3 others having the same issue?
Anyway if you are in the same boat I would ask for Zero HQ to order the part and then have it transported once they have it. In my case installation when quick it was just waiting for the part to arrive in the Netherlands. And I could still ride it as long as it was dry.
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92 days later, yes "ninty two"! Zero have fixed and returned my bike. What an ordeal!
From what I understand, it was the spider bus, and it took an extremely long time as Zero didn't have the technical capability to repair the bike in the UK. I believe a technical centre has now been setup in the UK to avoid delays like this in future (which I hope to never need again!).
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Good to hear you have the bike back.
I found a picture of the exposed spider bus on Facebook (not my bike fortunately :) )
It looks really intricate and I can imagine that it is not an easy job to replace it all
I can't really tell is the spiders bus is all the components in the picture or just a subset.
From what I can remember from the charge tank installation I seem to remember that the charge tank attaches to the 2 silver studs right in the center of the battery that are now empty (below the black disc with the blue smiley face sticker). I guess that is also the spot where the leads of the Powertank would go.
At the top I guess it is the contractor (with the black round disc on top)
Top right would be either the fuse or the current sensor or both
The current sensor could also be the blue bar on the top left with the white sticker on it (sensor wires on both sides of the blue bar)
From the charge tank install I also seem to remember that the wires coming from the chargers on top of the battery to this spider bus are not really covered from water entering the spider bus area other than only the tank and a cover plate to the rear of the spider bus.
I also remember wondering why the water trap outlet on the bottom of the charging port had no drain hose attached to it and it was kind of directly over the orange wires going into the spider bus area.
The spider bus looks pretty waterproofed but rain here in Europe can be really heavy. I keep thinking whether water running down the tank would be able to enter the charge port connector and then go via the charge connector drain port and drip directly down into the spider bus area.
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92 days later, yes "ninty two"! Zero have fixed and returned my bike. What an ordeal!
From what I understand, it was the spider bus, and it took an extremely long time as Zero didn't have the technical capability to repair the bike in the UK. I believe a technical centre has now been setup in the UK to avoid delays like this in future (which I hope to never need again!).
92 days! You've got the record so far I think ;)
My bike is at about 75ish days at the dealer now.. but I fear I'm going to have the dubious honour of beating your record.
My SpiderBus was replaced around day 50ish, however it was then noticed that my BMS was faulty, so that needed replacing. Once that was sorted they realised my entire battery pack was knackered and needed replacing.
So that's what I'm waiting for now.
Watching the interview with the Zero CEO that Brian posted the other day here https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10109 (https://www.electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=10109) it seems like Zero in California are pretty much shut down so I don't expect my bike back for at least another month yet (the batteries are made in Germany, but shipped to California for testing, before then being sent back to the UK).
And yes, you are correct that Zero UK didn't have the technical capability to fix the bikes. Alec (from the English Electric Motorcycle Company) was the 'chosen one' who was sent to the Netherlands for training. This was back in March if I remember correctly. When he returned he had about 8 SR/F's with spiderbus issues he needed to sort out - I assume our bikes were in that 8.
Anyway, I'm relieved to hear that you've got your bike back. Keep us posted as to how things go with it.
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Well, my neighbor is still pulling hours on essential jobs, so they're doing what they can.
Our shelter orders got modified again today, parks and beaches closed for the next week at least. But some businesses are allowed to modify to fit safety and separation rules.
-Crissa
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92 days later, yes "ninty two"! Zero have fixed and returned my bike. What an ordeal!
From what I understand, it was the spider bus, and it took an extremely long time as Zero didn't have the technical capability to repair the bike in the UK. I believe a technical centre has now been setup in the UK to avoid delays like this in future (which I hope to never need again!).
92 days! You've got the record so far I think ;)
My bike is at about 75ish days at the dealer now.. but I fear I'm going to have the dubious honour of beating your record.
Hold my beer.
* SR/F defunct (and first contact with dealer) : 19/02 ;
* possibility of replacing the 12V battery myself refused by dealer for warranty reasons (luckily) ;
* SR/F at dealer : 02/03 ;
* 12V battery replaced , twice ;
* BMS replaced ;
* SR/F being shipped to Zero Netherlands EU HQ : 22/04.
Next Monday (04/05), I'm going to contact Zero Netherlands.
Looks like I'm in the run for being a serious contender for that record too.
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Wow. I seem to be joining this august group, with the Battery Module Ineligible and 12V Low Voltage Fault warnings. This *already* happened to me on 24/10/2019. While waiting for the tow truck it briefly came alive again so I crossed my fingers and raced to the nearest dealer. "Fortunately" for me I'm in California so we have a few dealers in the Bay Area. They had the vehicle for 1 1/2 months, replaced the BMS board, and (I thought) that was it.
Just yesterday, I took the bike out for the first time in a month (because of the lockdown), and guess what? I'm seeing the *same* errors as before!
And for you poor blokes in the UK, I should point out that in both of *my* cases, there was no rain whatsoever. Clear conditions both times. And in this case, sitting dry in the garage for over a month before the most-recent failure.
Sigh. Sending the logs to Zero, and we'll see what they say. Love the motorcycle (and it's my second after a DSR), but the reliability seems quite questionable at the moment.
Cheers,
- Mark
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The 12v battery is a weak point.
But this sounds like a software issue or bent pin... Something is using the battery and something else isn't recharging it in the right cycle.
-Crissa
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What kind of problem does Zero have with a sealed battery case?
The same system as with the old models, error messages such as chassis isolation will not be available any time soon because of the new IT system but maybe empty cells due to moisture / leakage current.
Who of you has cleaned the BMS with a toothbrush?