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[EDoggN]

For you long time Zero owners...how often does Zero update/upgrade the batteries.  Is the 14.4 kWh about due for an upgrade?

[Auriga]

It's really tough to say. Traditionally this has happened every other year or so. But Zero can only increase battery capacity when technology advances, and I believe lithium ion batteries as a technology are approaching theoretical maximums. Still, you might get a 10%-15% capacity increase in another year or two.

Energica essentially jumped Zero's capacity by having a much larger battery, which Zero so far has not expressed interest in doing.

[Crissa]

Well, this year and last was a new frame, so probably next year or the year after.  Some newer battery tech will be dropping and they'll have the bugs worked out of the SR/F platform.

Just in time for new bugs.

-Crissa

[princec]

I think Zero are keen to keep the weight down - they could quite easily package up another 5KWh in the SR/F by the looks of it but it'd make the bike hugely heavier and bulkier.
I bet they're going to wait for solid state now.

Cas

[NoMoreIdeas]

They currently procure their batteries through Farasis - in the past we've seen articles that Farasis has developed some new type of cell and a couple of years later Zero produces a bigger pack. The last one was a jump from 28AH cells to 32AH cells in the same physical footprint, which is when we saw the ZF6.5 -> ZF7.2 and the ZF13.0 -> ZF14.4 upgrade. Here is a thread about that: https://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=6264.0

I haven seen any news about new cells from Farasis. I suppose they could be hiding it well though.

[EDoggN]

I’m considering buying a Zero SRF/SRS or a Livewire. The Level 2 charging on the Zero fits me better but the Livewire is a sweet bike (but obnoxious expensive).  Do Zero’s typically update their models in January?

[valnar]

Last time was around September 2019 for the general refresh, but with this Covid-19, I wouldn't be surprised if new models are put off.  I had my 2020 FXS in my hands in October last year.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

The CEO himself said in an interview that they have a battery update cadence that is running late currently.

So, this suggests that they're working on their next generation battery, but for whatever reason we haven't seen it yet. If they were targeting 2021 (they announce next years' models in the fall/October but they've also had off-cadence releases like the SRF and SRS), COVID-19 might be hampering the R&D or OTOH they might be able to better focus and maybe it's going faster.

I mean, I'd love to have a bike that cracked the 20kWh benchmark without compromising on battery life, and if we're lucky, mitigating battery heating with charge and discharge cycles.

Right now, I have to admit that the 18kWh on my 2020 DSR with Power Tank is really nice, so I'm focusing on aerodynamic upgrades to get more range out of it. I average 135 miles per charge right now on the highway, and am really hoping I can push it out to 160 miles.

With a 20kWh pack, fairings, and DC fast charging (even 1-1.5C), that magical 200 mile range per charge starts feeling within reach, even if it'd still be a stretch, but that's the number at which most motorcyclists would stop holding their noses.

[JaimeC]

Wouldn't this be more in the hands of Farasis and not Zero?  Farasis recently signed a huge deal with a German automobile manufacturer (Mercedes?) so they should be flush with cash...

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Wouldn't this be more in the hands of Farasis and not Zero?  Farasis recently signed a huge deal with a German automobile manufacturer (Mercedes?) so they should be flush with cash...

Farasis makes the cells, but Zero makes the packs. It takes time after the introduction of a cell to engineer packs around it (mechanical design, electrical interconnects and safeguards, building prototypes, testing, checking quality issues, working on algorithms and parameters for the BMS, etc). Especially if the chemistry or other performance properties change even slightly.

Farasis should also be burdened with responsibilities (they're not getting paid to do nothing) and might be scaling rapidly and not as responsive to Zero who was already a minority customer.

I don't know why everyone thinks there's some simple route to the batteries getting cheaper or higher-performance. These are the same batteries any normal person could start a fire with if they DIY'd a pack.

[JaimeC]

Wouldn't this be more in the hands of Farasis and not Zero?  Farasis recently signed a huge deal with a German automobile manufacturer (Mercedes?) so they should be flush with cash...

Farasis makes the cells, but Zero makes the packs. It takes time after the introduction of a cell to engineer packs around it (mechanical design, electrical interconnects and safeguards, building prototypes, testing, checking quality issues, working on algorithms and parameters for the BMS, etc). Especially if the chemistry or other performance properties change even slightly.

Farasis should also be burdened with responsibilities (they're not getting paid to do nothing) and might be scaling rapidly and not as responsive to Zero who was already a minority customer.

I don't know why everyone thinks there's some simple route to the batteries getting cheaper or higher-performance. These are the same batteries any normal person could start a fire with if they DIY'd a pack.

Got it, thanks.  And I didn't say anything about "less expensive."  But it would make sense Farasis would pay more attention to Mercedes than Zero considering the money involved.  I was just hoping for a "trickle down" effect. 

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

There’s no trickle down effect, except for the raw cell prices, and only if the cells made in large volume are literally the cells Zero buys, and for no other cells.

That’s assuming Zero is even allowed to buy the same cells, because the large investment might require exclusivity.

Businesses will lock down whatever they can if they feel it’s in their interest. Not even if it’s literally in their interest. Tesla locked out a number of car companies from their economically priced cell production.

Trickle down? Companies build dams.

[Richard230]

There’s no trickle down effect, except for the raw cell prices, and only if the cells made in large volume are literally the cells Zero buys, and for no other cells.

That’s assuming Zero is even allowed to buy the same cells, because the large investment might require exclusivity.

Businesses will lock down whatever they can if they feel it’s in their interest. Not even if it’s literally in their interest. Tesla locked out a number of car companies from their economically priced cell production.

Trickle down? Companies build dams.

+1   

[Crissa]

Tesla isn't a great example there, right now their sales are constrained by battery supply more than anything else.

It's not until there are surplus factories that prices start tumbling.  And right now, surplus is not what there is in cells used in bikes.

Let alone the packs.

-Crissa