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[Richard230]

I received my PG&E (Northern and Central California utility company) power bill yesterday and now my blood pressure is up and I need to rant. 

In a few days, you may rant some more.


I am having solar put on this house. Won't be cheaper, but at least not nearly as much of my money will go to PG&E and my power will stay on during the PG& E outages.


OTOH, at the rate PG&E is rising their rates, the solar will soon be cheaper.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

Don't bet on it. It will be only a matter of time before PG&E starts charging you for using sunlight to produce electricity. They will say that it is not fair because they have a monopoly approved by the CA PUC and you don't.   

[DonTom]

Don't bet on it. It will be only a matter of time before PG&E starts charging you for using sunlight to produce electricity. They will say that it is not fair because they have a monopoly approved by the CA PUC and you don't.   

PG&E has had a lot of expenses lately. I often see them cutting down trees in this area.


Hopefully they will never even know I have solar, but I am not doing it to save money anyway. I just like the idea for several reasons, such as during power outages. I would not consider such a system without the batteries.


-Don-  Auburn, CA

[Specter]

Why anyone would have gotten a solar system without battery backup is beyond me.  It's them being clueless, and the slimy bastards with the solar companies selling them a unicorn fart dream with no clue to the reality of things.  The moment your system burps, all those panels go OFF line for a minimum of 5 minutes.

The prices of solar batteries, believe it or not are coming down lately.  It's not hard at all to put an inverter in with a few batteries and back up your house for when the lights DO go out so you have power.  OR to charge at night when the price is 20 cents a kw/hr .vs. the day when it's 50 cents a kw hour.  Don't sell it back to them, fuck them, put all your generation into your batteries and then use it later on, don't even need to touch their meter OR their grid, throw the main breaker.

Here in florida, all taxes, fees etc out the door we are paying about 13 cents ish a KW hr.  Im on solar, i make way more than I use and sell power to my neighbor.

Aaron

PS. why are they having planned power outages? for the wind or because of generation capability shortfalls?

[Curt]

Why anyone would have gotten a solar system without battery backup is beyond me.

Because batteries double the price of something that's already a luxury, and they have a short life, and they become a literal ton of liability after that.

We use the grid with net metering as infinite "batteries", so there is no worrying and next to no maintenance. Any under-supply is automatically covered, so no self-rationing is required (besides the high price). Power failure is a disadvantage, but it's rare and I have a gas generator in case it lasts 12+ hours (CARB is forcibly interfering with that).

Paying connection fees to PG&E is another recent disadvantage introduced by the CPUC. Everyone should have to pay a connection, fee and everyone should have to pay a "demand" fee according to their absolute peak usage. But rather than going this way, they're pursuing a socialist approach with income-based rates.

[Specter]

Batteries can last 10 to 15 years, or more.  People get hung up on the numbers without really understanding them.
There are places that Do recycle them, or take them for free, so disposal is NEVER going to cost you a ton more, at least it should not, unless some politician as raping you with some stupid ordinances. 

If you never have power outages then ok, you don't need them, but if you do have them or are prone to hurricanes and stuff that CAN take down your grid for weeks, then batteries work.  Not to mention you never get paid properly for excess power, they rape you taking it from you, and rape you selling it back to you at jacked prices.  With batteries YOU keep your excess and use it when YOU want to, and don't have to pay those demand charges, you just use YOUR power you put in your battery.  They  don't see it, and better yet, they don't get to steal it.

speaking of, here in florida, I am told you can NOT disconnect from the grid, it's a law.  They claim it's a safety issue that you have to have reliable power, well shit, my solar is a shit ton more reliable then the power out here, thats one of the reasons I GOT IT!  so you can not totally disconnect, you have to pay the chicken vacuum's their monthly fee, even if you don't use one watt of power.  My power company has been accusing me of stealing from them for years, because I have gone months w/o one kilowatt of useage on my system,  they replaced my meter a few times now and are always snooping around.  I've offered to show them my entire setup but they never want to see it!  I think the harassment / intimidation is part of their plan.

I DO agree though, that if one is connected, they pay the connect fee, but the solar guy should NOT have to subsidize the other clowns power, AND the other clowns should not have to pay for the solar guys system either!  Problem is greed, the power company does not want to share ANY of the pie, they want it all for themselves, so will rule over ashes rather than share with another person.   The solar clowns are no better, they think the world will run off their magical unicorn farts, and the evil power company needs to pay to feed those unicorns.  If only we could get the adults to sit at the table and discuss this, there ARE solutions that work for EVERYONE, without huge compromises, that are realistic, but nobody wants to hear that, it might cut into THEIR profit.

Right now, I am totally self sufficient, and have about 120 KW / hr of battery storage, I get batteries for free from a dealer that takes in factory warranty claims, and gives them to me, I open them, fix them, then reuse them in my system.  Now that I have an electric bike, I have a good use for those KW's, in fact am putting together a trailer, with batteries, an inverter and my fast charger, to take the bike to the track with, so i can fast charge on spot when racing.  But that extra storage, can easily, literally with one 50 amp plug, jack right into my existing system and run the house if I need... or run a neighbors house in an emergency.

Aaron

[CagivaRider]

No batteries with my installed solar. The return on investment with the solar panels is way down the road; with batteries doubling the install cost it makes even less financial sense. We rarely lose power and I too have a generator to keep the freezers running (via extension cords rather than through the house wiring). You have to be real careful about not feeding power back into the grid when the line workers are repairing downed lines during an outage. I didn't have the grid cutoff installed when they put in our solar panels.

I like the idea of batteries - particularly free ones. I can relate to free: I have nearly infinite free wood for our wood stove to heat the house.

Our PUD pays the same rate to us for uploaded power as we pay for grid power. I wish we had a bit more sun in Seattle! This time of the year we only get about 10% of our power from solar.

[Specter]

That is fair for the upload / taking of power.  BUT. you have to be careful.  The IRS will fuck you on that.  The laws are very slimy concerning that, and what will happen is, every watt you sell, for say 20 cents a kilowatt, the power company will consider that a payment of cash / cash equivalent to you, so once you sell them the magical 600 dollars of electric, viola, it's 1099 time, straight to the IRS for you to pay taxes on that 'income'.

Even if you took it right back at the same price an hour later and used it, you can NOT write that back off, and are stuck with that 'income'.  you can argue that you really just used the utility as a 'battery' to hold your power for you, it was your power, and just like putting money in the bank and taking it out, and putting it back in, that is NOT another income... but it won't fly, the IRS' reply will be, well that is between you and the 1099 issuer, but WE see income that needs to be paid for.

Talk to your accountant, there ARE ways around this,  an IOU is one, but you have to play by rules.   Batteries eliminate all this, YOU save YOUR power to use any time YOU want and not have to pay a dime for it, except the price of the batteries, which you do get a rebate on but anyways.

prices are coming down on them, they are about 40 cents kw hr now, and so are panels.  They are the safer chems too so there is not the hydrogen blowtorch thing to worry about.

at those prices, the ROI is very reasonable.

Aaron

Aaron

[CagivaRider]

My electricity bills for 2023 added up to $1172.74. I put 2205 KWH back onto the grid @$.10 per KWH - $220.50.  I'm safe from a 1099. It is food for thought for people with higher rates and more sun.

[Curt]

The laws are very slimy concerning that, and what will happen is, every watt you sell, for say 20 cents a kilowatt, the power company will consider that a payment of cash / cash equivalent to you, so once you sell them the magical 600 dollars of electric, viola, it's 1099 time, straight to the IRS for you to pay taxes on that 'income'.

If I had to pay taxes on solar income, then I'd write off the solar panels as a capital expenditure, depreciating asset, business loss, or whatever the logical thing would be.

[Specter]

YES you can do that IF you are a business.  Back in the day though, that would disqualify you from the 30 percent 'home' rebate you can get on your taxes for the panels.  But that is just fixing the 'panel'  cost, no matter what is going on with your electric, so it's just a small up front one time thing.

Because you took that rebate you won't be able to write off those panels that way, (their thinking is, you got a rebate that's all you  need for them).  If you do not take the rebate then you might be able to write off the panels, but at what real cost?, avoided tax?  will your tax exceed the 30 percent you get from writing them off.  Ok whatever, but you STILL are paying tax on your solar income, unless you  battery it to use it and nobody has a clue how much, because it's never SOLD, it's just used, which so far is NOT taxed.

As I said, there ARE ways to get around / solve / fix this, but the laws in the states are diffferent for the way's,  ie IOU as an example, so you really would need to talk to your accountant and see if it is a viable thing for you, and what hassles you will face in your specific state.

Your electric is 25 cents a KW hour?  get a small power meter and an extension cord and sell power to your neighbor for 15 or 20 cent / kw.  Fast easy and both of you make out.  You make money, he saves money, and if you do it right you'll never backspin him so nobody will ever know.

Without getting into long, boring to most, nitty gritty details, it is workable, even in low outage areas, batteries DO help a ton, and you CAN get some decent ROI if you do it right.

On ROI, people are hung up on that number, they don't see the big picture.
How much is NOT losing 1000 dollars worth of meat in the freezer worth when the hurricane, earthquake, etc takes your power out for a few days, a few weeks?  Not losing your milk, your meds that need to be kept cool.  Having AC when you live in florida and the humidity is 95 percent and the temp is 97 out?  Oh but I have a generator, im good.  Ok what happens when it runs out of gas, hint the gas station won't run either without electricity, and do you think that little portable thing you got is honestly going to run for DAYS?  That air cooled gen is going to be just fine running days on end?  umm okay.....  But I have 100 gallons of gas.  Which goes bad in a year, until you throw crap in it, which is costly then you might get 2 or 3 years out of it.

To each is own, some people th is wont work, but whatever you end up getting, do your homework, get the most out of it, and don't let them steal it back from you !

Aaron

[SwampNut]

I am currently charging the Tesla on our winter super-off-peak rate of 3.1 cents per K.  It's much higher in summer, 5.1 cents.

[Richard230]

Speaking of PG&E, they made the news again. 

[Richard230]

Page 2.

[Specter]

Well, you seen that one a mile off.
Don't cut down our pretty trees, you TREE KILLER !!!!!!   glare scream bark at the moon.
Overgrowth causes massive wildfires that do billions of dollars of damage.
Tree huggers sue, YOU did not do preventative forestry it's YOUR fault !!!!
Suit goes thru, now they are on the hook for billions of dollars to pay off lawsuits AND fix the stuff
hmm, where to get the money, well unlike the govt, they don't have a magic money printer so...
it comes from the customers.  Whom are essentially a monopoly income provider.

rates increase 40 percent for system upgrades and other 'costs of business'.

wash rinse and repeat.

Go solar, get a battery, leave them behind.

Aaron

[Curt]

Go solar, get a battery, leave them behind.

But my system has generated next to nothing for the past month.

Forest fires are one excuse, but California has been destroying its own energy production by regulating it into non-existence.

Water Resources Control Board has control over our power!
> California originally had scheduled all of the state’s natural gas-fired units that are cooled by ocean water to be closed by year-end 2020, a decision made by the State Water Resources Control Board in 2010. The board cited negative impacts to marine life when seawater was moved into the power plants. [Trust me, marine life DOES NOT CARE.] Oxnard, Alamitos, Huntington Beach plants closures temporarily delayed [until incumbents can be re-elected]

Redondo Beach closure:
> “It took us over 20 years,” Mayor Bill Brand said in a recent Facebook post. [He is so proud of this]
> The city celebrated the shutdown on Sunday afternoon — New Year’s Eve — with a ceremonial flip of a switch, symbolizing the plant never having to be turned on again. [And the residents cheer... higher bills and blackouts are worth whatever the gain was! Except Asia will offset the carbon savings by 10x]
> “The retirement of the AES power plant,” the city said in a recent press release, “represents a significant step towards a more sustainable and environmentally friendly future for Redondo Beach, and the entire Santa Monica Bay.” [As the plant will be replaced by mixed use residential/commercial creating more *actual* environmental damage, and more customers needing power]
> Carlsbad, Huntington Beach, Mandalay plants closed [Angela Johnson Meszaros of Earthjustice, which has pushed for the closure of the city’s gas-fired plants, called Tuesday’s announcement “an important milestone.” “But it’s not the end of the story,” she said. “A lot remains to be done.” It's a RELIGION.]

California Energy Commission
> CEC voted Wednesday to extend the life of three gas power plants along the state’s southern coast through 2026, postponing a shutoff deadline previously set for the end of this year. The vote would keep the decades-old facilities — Ormond Beach Generating Station, AES Alamitos and AES Huntington Beach — open so they can run during emergencies. [Who could have predicted decommissioning so much power would be problematic?]

Commissioner Patricia Monahan things renewables and battery are going to work.
> “We need to move faster in incorporating renewable energy. We need to move faster at incorporating battery storage. We need to build out chargers faster,” commissioner Patricia Monahan said. “We’re working with all the energy institutions to do that, but we are not there yet.” [We're going to give them $billiions to squander on fake projects like Solyndra and H2 charging stations until shit hits the fan]

Moss Landing
> Put in operation in 2002 and retired after 20 years, now being replaced by a 1.2GWh mega lithium battery storage project. [Discharge duration 4 hours] [Bet they wish they were producing at $0.48/kWh now instead.] [Battery lifetime... 10 years? These are Tesla batteries. Money for Tesla, and more money when they need replacement, and Tesla never makes any false claims...]

Diablo Canyon
> PG&E requests $1.3 billion to get rid of this clean 2.2GW power source [Newsom panics because we've already been having rolling blackouts under his watch]

Sorry for the random rant. Personally, I think all of civilization including humans will be replaced entirely with something unrecognizable by 2100, so all this global-warming-driven suffering is for naught.