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[CliC]

I suppose the thing that interests me about Brammo's midcourse correction is that it was so late in the game. I think gearboxes have their place with EVs; overall motor flexibility is generally limited somehow by battery voltage considerations, and some applications might be suited to use of gears. One probably doesn't need 6 of them, but as someone else mentioned, that's what the supplier offered. But to hold up an already-late product another year for a gearbox?

As for dirt riding, since top speed is not generally an issue, nor efficiency at highway speeds, the shifting just becomes a needless burden, as Trimester attests.

[ZeroSinMA]

I suppose the thing that interests me about Brammo's midcourse correction is that it was so late in the game. I think gearboxes have their place with EVs; overall motor flexibility is generally limited somehow by battery voltage considerations, and some applications might be suited to use of gears. One probably doesn't need 6 of them, but as someone else mentioned, that's what the supplier offered. But to hold up an already-late product another year for a gearbox?

As for dirt riding, since top speed is not generally an issue, nor efficiency at highway speeds, the shifting just becomes a needless burden, as Trimester attests.

I think it's classic bad product management. They started to get feedback from ICE motorcycle riders that they are put off by the lack of shifting. To most ICE riders, if it doesn't shift and make lots of noise it's not a motorcycle it's a scooter. Look at the Empulse. It looks like a sport bike. The ICE sport bike owner is Brammo's target customer. Big mistake. 

Brammo took the "needs to shift" feedback literally rather than think it through and figure out as Zero did.

Playing product manager for a minute, here's the logic:

A. For electric vehicles of all kinds, range is product requirement #1. From a marketing standpoint, for motorcycles the magic number is 100 miles. Still, a bike that only goes 100 miles does not have enough range to qualify as a distance touring bike, and if power is used to make the bike competitive with sport bikes it won't have a 100 mile range. Current technology relegates the electric motorcycle to a commuter and city riding application.
B. Getting 100 miles plus out of an electric commuter/city bike means optimizing for weight/power ratio.
C. At close to $1K per kWh for lithium, 9kWh is the most stored energy that can be viably marketed for a commuter/city bike.
D. A 9kWh battery requires a light sub-300lb bike to take the bike and rider > 100 miles.
E. A 300 lb bike, ICE or electric, is too light for extended highway riding, so optimize for 30MPH to 50MPH.

A + B + C + D + E = no gearbox

The current state-of-the art for electric motorcycles is the commuter/city bike application, an evolutionary step up from the previous short-range dirt bike application that the bikes were limited to before power density was doubled and regen braking was added.

If the economics of the batteries and drive trains doubles again then so does the calculation above, and new applications are opened up. If the cost falls to $500/kWh then range can be increased to approach ICE distance cruiser range, or the power can be used to increase speed and acceleration and ICE sport bike configurations start to make sense.

Brammo's error is to try to achieve a sport bike application within the confines of commuter/city bike technology. This is why they will fail. Fatal error.

[protomech]

A. For electric vehicles of all kinds, range is product requirement #1. From a marketing standpoint, for motorcycles the magic number is 100 miles. Still, a bike that only goes 100 miles does not have enough range to qualify as a distance touring bike, and if power is used to make the bike competitive with sport bikes it won't have a 100 mile range. Current technology relegates the electric motorcycle to a commuter and city riding application.

Empulse has a motor that's almost twice as powerful as the Zero. It weighs 130 lbs more and has a multi-gear transmission that will have some mechanical loss.

Yet in city riding it is rated to use only 11% more energy per mile than the Zero and in highway riding it is rated to use 9% less energy per mile on the highway. Because highway is by far the largest consumption of energy, on the 50/50 city/highway blends the Empulse uses 4% less energy per mile.

You're thinking about gas bikes too much. On an electric a larger motor is not necessarily less efficient for an identical workload.

B. Getting 100 miles plus out of an electric commuter/city bike means optimizing for weight/power ratio.

Out of a city bike, yes. But if you ride a city bike 100 miles, it will take you more than 4 hours. Who rides a bike for 4-7 hours at 20-25 miles per hour?

It's useful to distinguish commuter bikes from city bikes: a commuter bike might mean 60 miles each way @ 80 mph. Commuter just has the expectation of a relatively fixed distance and a long period to charge on either end (to distinguish from touring).

C. At close to $1K per kWh for lithium, 9kWh is the most stored energy that can be viably marketed for a commuter/city bike.

Yes. I think even at $200-300/kWh, 100 miles is more than enough for a city bike.

Perhaps it's more useful to think in terms of time than range.

For commuter applications, one "leg" of a trip is unlikely to exceed one hour of riding.

If you consider at most you need two legs of riding .. a city bike (20-35 mph) will need around 4 kWh, a suburban bike (45-55 mph) will need around 12 kWh, and a highway bike (70-80 mph) will need around 30 kWh. Good aerodynamics will significantly decrease the battery needed for suburban and highway riding.

At $200/kWh, those bike packs will cost $800, $2400, and $6000 respectively.

Someone who primarily commutes in a suburban environment may turn up their noses at the $3600 price delta.. they can ride for 2 hours @ $2400, $6000 would buy them 5 hours of riding but how often are they likely to do that?

D. A 9kWh battery requires a light sub-300lb bike to take the bike and rider > 100 miles.

Brammo does 121 city miles in 9.3 kWh and a 470 lb bike.

Zero does 114 city miles in 7.9 kWh with a 340 lb bike. A hypothetical 9.3 kWh Zero would weigh around 360 lbs.

Air resistance is far more important than weight, especially when you start to talk about those 30-50 mph speeds.

E. A 300 lb bike, ICE or electric, is too light for extended highway riding, so optimize for 30MPH to 50MPH.

A + B + C + D + E = no gearbox

A bike like the Zero is good for only occasional highway commuting. It handles fine on the highway, but the energy usage is too high and the charging is too slow. Charge recovery is 4.5 highway miles per hour charging. A 40 mile one-way commute would deplete 92% of the pack energy and it would take around 8 hours to charge back to full.

A bike like the Empulse is still very much constrained by range, but lower highway energy consumption combined with a fast charger -- supposing that you have access to J1772 charging stations -- changes things. Charge recovery is 19 highway miles per hour charging. A 40 mile one-way commute would deplete 71% of the pack energy and it would take a couple of hours to charge back to full.

The current state-of-the art for electric motorcycles is the commuter/city bike application, an evolutionary step up from the previous short-range dirt bike application that the bikes were limited to before power density was doubled and regen braking was added.

If the economics of the batteries and drive trains doubles again then so does the calculation above, and new applications are opened up. If the cost falls to $500/kWh then range can be increased to approach ICE distance cruiser range, or the power can be used to increase speed and acceleration and ICE sport bike configurations start to make sense.

Brammo's error is to try to achieve a sport bike application within the confines of commuter/city bike technology. This is why they will fail. Fatal error.

I'm curious what you will think if Zero introduces a sport bike next year.

Even if the batteries halve in price and weight, people still kvetch about range. "100 miles of highway driving is barely enough to get me to the good roads", they say. "That's not enough to handle my 5 hour commute", they say. "Who buys a bike you can't do the Iron Butt Rally in", they say. "40 minutes on a race track is awful, I need at least 8 hours for my track session".

But every time the batteries improve it makes the electric bikes more reasonable for more people. A slow gradual process to be sure.

[ZeroSinMA]

A. For electric vehicles of all kinds, range is product requirement #1. From a marketing standpoint, for motorcycles the magic number is 100 miles. Still, a bike that only goes 100 miles does not have enough range to qualify as a distance touring bike, and if power is used to make the bike competitive with sport bikes it won't have a 100 mile range. Current technology relegates the electric motorcycle to a commuter and city riding application.

Empulse has a motor that's almost twice as powerful as the Zero. It weighs 130 lbs more and has a multi-gear transmission that will have some mechanical loss.

Sorry but I still have trouble comparing the actual performance of a shipping production product to the specs of a still not shipping, non-production prototype. To me it's real apples versus virtual oranges.

You're thinking about gas bikes too much. On an electric a larger motor is not necessarily less efficient for an identical workload.

Agreed. Not sure where I gave an impression of otherwise.

Out of a city bike, yes. But if you ride a city bike 100 miles, it will take you more than 4 hours. Who rides a bike for 4-7 hours at 20-25 miles per hour?

It's useful to distinguish commuter bikes from city bikes: a commuter bike might mean 60 miles each way @ 80 mph. Commuter just has the expectation of a relatively fixed distance and a long period to charge on either end (to distinguish from touring).

Exactly so. A Zero as currently configured with a 9kWh battery is overkill because no one has 6 hours to spend tooling around at backroads speeds. Too big for a commuter but too small for sport or touring.

Yes. I think even at $200-300/kWh, 100 miles is more than enough for a city bike.

In my experience too much. I have yet to find time to use up more than half the charge on my ZF9.

Perhaps it's more useful to think in terms of time than range.

That is how I think of it.

For commuter applications, one "leg" of a trip is unlikely to exceed one hour of riding.

The nationwide average drive-time of about 24.3 minutes.

If you consider at most you need two legs of riding .. a city bike (20-35 mph) will need around 4 kWh, a suburban bike (45-55 mph) will need around 12 kWh, and a highway bike (70-80 mph) will need around 30 kWh. Good aerodynamics will significantly decrease the battery needed for suburban and highway riding.

At $200/kWh, those bike packs will cost $800, $2400, and $6000 respectively.

Makes sense.

Brammo does 121 city miles in 9.3 kWh and a 470 lb bike.

Maybe. We'll see what the shipping product does.

A bike like the Zero is good for only occasional highway commuting. It handles fine on the highway, but the energy usage is too high and the charging is too slow. Charge recovery is 4.5 highway miles per hour charging. A 40 mile one-way commute would deplete 92% of the pack energy and it would take around 8 hours to charge back to full.

A bike like the Empulse is still very much constrained by range, but lower highway energy consumption combined with a fast charger -- supposing that you have access to J1772 charging stations -- changes things. Charge recovery is 19 highway miles per hour charging. A 40 mile one-way commute would deplete 71% of the pack energy and it would take a couple of hours to charge back to full.

Maybe. We'll see what the shipping product does.

I'm curious what you will think if Zero introduces a sport bike next year.

If Zero comes out with a 2-speed sport bike next year that makes full used of the 9kWh battery my wife will kill me because I'll buy it.

Even if the batteries halve in price and weight, people still kvetch about range. "100 miles of highway driving is barely enough to get me to the good roads", they say. "That's not enough to handle my 5 hour commute", they say. "Who buys a bike you can't do the Iron Butt Rally in", they say. "40 minutes on a race track is awful, I need at least 8 hours for my track session".

"People" is a mighty broad target customer. The Harley weekend warrior who plays out the tired Easy Rider cliche whenever his wife lets him, after he's finished mowing the lawn and fixing the deck, isn't a prospect. Nor is the kid who wants to pass cars on the highway at 150 kpm like in the youtube videos. There are dozens of niches within the motocycle user base. I bet there are more prospects among scooter owners who are trading up to a Zero than ICE owners who invariably are going to feel like they are trading down, in range and power (and noise and shifting).

But every time the batteries improve it makes the electric bikes more reasonable for more people. A slow gradual process to be sure.

That's the way Zero has been doing it since 2006. Slow and gradual, one step at a time. The latest Zero was delivered as promised, on time and on spec and at the advertised price. That is not easy to do. That in my opinion makes Zero the only real company in the industry. 

[trikester]

I was surprised at how different the dirt mileage was from the highway mileage when I first got my 2010 DS and of course it's also true with my 2012 DS. On my 2012 DS I get about 65 miles of dirt riding range and only about 50 miles of highway riding at 35 - 40mph. The air drag is the biggest user of power on the highway. That's if I pump up my big knobby (K270's) dual-sport tires to 30 psi for highway. If I'm desert riding with 10 lbs in the front tire and 15 lbs in the rear, and then I ride some highway back, that rolling resistance really saps the highway mileage.

If I'm going to ride highway to get to a trail then I start with high tire pressure and let air out when I get to the dirt. I haven't carried a pump to re-inflate when I get back out to pavement, but if I thought I was really going to push the mileage limit to get back, then I would carry one.

Trikester

[ZeroSinMA]

I was surprised at how different the dirt mileage was from the highway mileage when I first got my 2010 DS and of course it's also true with my 2012 DS. On my 2012 DS I get about 65 miles of dirt riding range and only about 50 miles of highway riding at 35 - 40mph. The air drag is the biggest user of power on the highway. That's if I pump up my big knobby (K270's) dual-sport tires to 30 psi for highway. If I'm desert riding with 10 lbs in the front tire and 15 lbs in the rear, and then I ride some highway back, that rolling resistance really saps the highway mileage.

If I'm going to ride highway to get to a trail then I start with high tire pressure and let air out when I get to the dirt. I haven't carried a pump to re-inflate when I get back out to pavement, but if I thought I was really going to push the mileage limit to get back, then I would carry one.

Trikester

Let me see if I got this right. You mention here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2209.msg7910#msg7910 that you are 77 years old. ITT you say you ride your DS 65 miles in the dirt.

For real? 

[protomech]

Empulse has a motor that's almost twice as powerful as the Zero. It weighs 130 lbs more and has a multi-gear transmission that will have some mechanical loss.

Sorry but I still have trouble comparing the actual performance of a shipping production product to the specs of a still not shipping, non-production prototype. To me it's real apples versus virtual oranges.

Brammo certainly has given ample reason in the last two years for skepticism. If you believe the Empulse they're currently showing is a non-production prototype and the MIC range tests they have performed are bunk, then there's really not much left to talk about until the bike lands in third party hands - which might be this coming monday.

I'm curious what you will think if Zero introduces a sport bike next year.

If Zero comes out with a 2-speed sport bike next year that makes full used of the 9kWh battery my wife will kill me because I'll buy it.

I'm confused - is the Empulse transmission bad because it has the Brammo / SMRE name on it? Or is it that it's a six speed vs a two speed?


***

Sorry for steering the conversation off-topic.

Zero's CEO (Richard Walker) called down the list to me today. We talked .. okay, I mostly talked for about 30 minutes. A couple takeaway points:

* Zero has gotten a lot of feedback about the lack of information presented by the gauge clusters. They're looking at other options. Chance that a newer gauge cluster could be made available for older bikes.
* They have a couple of bikes with glitches in house or on their way back. They're working hard to get a solution finalized.
* Mr. Walker is not a rider, though he rides. If that makes sense. Zero has a number of higher-ups that are pretty serious riders and seasoned motorcycle industry vets .. so perhaps he can bring some fresh perspective.

[trikester]

Let me see if I got this right. You mention here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2209.msg7910#msg7910 that you are 77 years old. ITT you say you ride your DS 65 miles in the dirt.

For real?  Shocked

Yes I am 77 but the total mileage range (65) I have extrapolated from the various mileages I have ridden on numerous dirt rides. I think to date the longest single dirt ride I have done on the 2012 DS was around 35 miles. That wasn't sandy, tricky, desert trail it was forest fire-roads, where you can add up some miles fairly quickly. In the desert riding (slow going) mileage is usually in the 15 to 20 mile area. However, using the different rides and the energy consumed it always extrapolates to around 65 miles. I was talking with Electric Cowboy a few days ago and he said that he can go quite a ways after no bars are showing, so it may be that i could get farther but I doubt that, because I also use the kwh that it takes to recharge in figuring mileage.

I ride alone 99% of the time so at my age I do take it fairly easy, no "gonzo" stuff for this guy (I haven't caught air with my ZERO and don't intend to). I've walked the bike in a few spots that looked pretty "nasty", like threading my way through a recent rockslide in a canyon.

Trikester

[ZeroSinMA]

...there's really not much left to talk about until the bike lands in third party hands - which might be this coming monday.

Exactly, else we have to arbitrarily choose one from the string of Empulse prototypes that have appeared over the last several years as "the" prototype that is equivalent to the future theoretical production bike.

As of yet, Brammo still hasn't shipped the 2011 Enertia Plus product that competes with the Zero S FS9 that started to ship in April.

They "launched" it in Oct. 2010...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1050571_breaking-brammo-launches-2011-enertia-plus-electric-motorcycle-doubles-range

Latest rumor from pre-order customers is that it ships in this month... maybe... almost 2 years after "launch"

http://brammoforum.com/index.php?topic=1449.0

Is the current Empulse prototype the last one we'll see before they finally ship?

I wouldn't bet on it.

It takes considerable effort to fail to see the obvious pattern of Brammo's inability to deliver. 

The last 3rd party Brammo vs Zero performance test that I'm aware of is this one from back in 2010 between the currently shipping Enertia and the previous model of Zero S.

Are you aware of any that are more up-to-date 3rd party tests, between the shipping 2012 Zero S and any shipping Brammo product?

I'm confused - is the Empulse transmission bad because it has the Brammo / SMRE name on it? Or is it that it's a six speed vs a two speed?

Look back over my posts you'll see that I agree that there is an argument for two (2) gears that shifts the 0 to 40MPH torque curve up to 40MPG and higher.  An advantage over no xmission is possible if the 2-speed xmission is light enough and low friction enough and robust enough, which a six gear xmission cannot be.

Sorry for steering the conversation off-topic.

Zero's CEO (Richard Walker) called down the list to me today. We talked .. okay, I mostly talked for about 30 minutes. A couple takeaway points:

* Zero has gotten a lot of feedback about the lack of information presented by the gauge clusters. They're looking at other options. Chance that a newer gauge cluster could be made available for older bikes.
* They have a couple of bikes with glitches in house or on their way back. They're working hard to get a solution finalized.
* Mr. Walker is not a rider, though he rides. If that makes sense. Zero has a number of higher-ups that are pretty serious riders and seasoned motorcycle industry vets .. so perhaps he can bring some fresh perspective.

Not a rider though he rides. I'm going to guess that means he uses the product but wasn't a motorcycle rider/owner before Zero. My only concern is the he puts too much process in place. HP is highly bureaucratic. That kind of culture tends to stick with you. At this point Zero needs more process (prevent future glitch problems, etc.) but I hope he doesn't overdo it and drive the management team nuts.

[ZeroSinMA]

Let me see if I got this right. You mention here http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2209.msg7910#msg7910 that you are 77 years old. ITT you say you ride your DS 65 miles in the dirt.

For real?  Shocked

Yes I am 77 but the total mileage range (65) I have extrapolated from the various mileages I have ridden on numerous dirt rides. I think to date the longest single dirt ride I have done on the 2012 DS was around 35 miles. That wasn't sandy, tricky, desert trail it was forest fire-roads, where you can add up some miles fairly quickly. In the desert riding (slow going) mileage is usually in the 15 to 20 mile area. However, using the different rides and the energy consumed it always extrapolates to around 65 miles. I was talking with Electric Cowboy a few days ago and he said that he can go quite a ways after no bars are showing, so it may be that i could get farther but I doubt that, because I also use the kwh that it takes to recharge in figuring mileage.

I ride alone 99% of the time so at my age I do take it fairly easy, no "gonzo" stuff for this guy (I haven't caught air with my ZERO and don't intend to). I've walked the bike in a few spots that looked pretty "nasty", like threading my way through a recent rockslide in a canyon.

Trikester

My hat's off to you, sir. If I'm still riding at 77, at any speed, I'll be mighty pleased.

[Ronbo85]

I've had a 2012 Zero XU since May. Love it! Use it mostly as a commuter vehicle (9 mi back roads travel)
I have run at 60-65 for a mile or two without issue. I tend not to try to push it more, since battery range (@35-45 mph average) tends to be ~25 mile range. Not what I was expecting, but it does satisfy my commute. I wish it did have greater range, seeing how much I'm enjoying riding

The only problem I'm experiencing is, at 45-55 mph speed, the front end seems to bounce, but not steady, it bounces, then smooth, then bounces, then smooth... My first bike, so I'm not sure what the issue might be. My dealer is 65 mi away (they delivered my bike to me ... If the wheel needed balance, wouldn't the bounce be constant?

Oh, and I have my phone call scheduled for 8/30...

[protomech]

I would expect to see more like 30 miles @ 40 mph, ~25 at 35-45 sounds a little low. Could just be a difference in riding style.

[benswing]

Had a great chat with the new CEO.  It was about 2 weeks ago, so I don't remember the details much, just that he asked some good questions in addition to the scripted ones that show he is genuinely interested in customer feedback.  Looking forward to seeing what is next from Zero now that they have a CEO again. 

[craigq]

The only problem I'm experiencing is, at 45-55 mph speed, the front end seems to bounce, but not steady, it bounces, then smooth, then bounces, then smooth... My first bike, so I'm not sure what the issue might be. My dealer is 65 mi away (they delivered my bike to me ... If the wheel needed balance, wouldn't the bounce be constant?

Check the front and rear tire pressure.

[manlytom]

Anybody any calls to Australia? Guess to expensive to call us. Btw Australia is strong and one of the few growing motocycle markets.