Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ColoPaul]

No, I was just joking around. This whole thread seems a bit odd. I'm not sure what zerolover's angle is. He still hasn't said whether or not he owns a Zero. It seems he's representing someone or a group of people.

You know DesignerDan, there was a time when it looked like you were ready for legal action...

  "Overall, my Zero experience has been horrible."
  "[As a premium brand, Zero...] Are you f*cking kidding me!? Premium!?"
  "As a buyer, I feel like I've been tricked/scammed."
  "My bike was obviously missing the "quality" part. "
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2782.msg13012#msg13012

[DesignerDan]

No, I was just joking around. This whole thread seems a bit odd. I'm not sure what zerolover's angle is. He still hasn't said whether or not he owns a Zero. It seems he's representing someone or a group of people.

You know DesignerDan, there was a time when it looked like you were ready for legal action...

  "Overall, my Zero experience has been horrible."
  "[As a premium brand, Zero...] Are you f*cking kidding me!? Premium!?"
  "As a buyer, I feel like I've been tricked/scammed."
  "My bike was obviously missing the "quality" part. "
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2782.msg13012#msg13012

Yea I will admit I was pretty aggervated. Furious, actually. But I've had months of problem-free riding so my EV grin has helped me forget how annoying it was when my bike kept breaking down. I guess you can say I have a love hate relationship with Zero.

[ZeroLover]

All,

I am just an angry customer - same as some of you - who thought that grouping angry customers would be the best way to find individual (faster resolution for our issues) and collective solutions(Zero improve its process so that any customer without his bike for more than, lets say, 30 days gets an increased support & compensation for the lack of availability). I have no other interest that seeing an unfair situation solved. Mine is a XU which spent most of its life back to the dealership. But my personal case is not really the issue here. And the last thing I want is my case solved, and the others let down - as explained, a lawyer will be taking care of my case, and it is a sure win.

Working in industrial aftersales services (in a sector where legal actions are common, and always lost  when new product have known & unresolved issues), I fully understand what is happening, and what I am doing is what I think will make things move :
   - Zero do not allocate enough resources to customer service (making complex cases very long / impossible to solve), making its marketing promises impossible to respect : premium service (not even close !), hassle free riding (dealers having few parts and qualification, it is often hassle full), easy to use (if you're not a qualified high power electronics specialist, you might suffer !)
   - the supply chain is complex, especially abroad. It also look very segmented in a way that nobody feels responsible for the total delay for customer service and that customers can easily be lost between dealers, importers & Zero
   - since the company is still small, there is a strong temptation to minimize issues, pretend it is customer's fault and try to discourage customers rather than bringing solutions. Just look at the dynamic of this topic, some of them probably coming from Zero employees ! Motorbike are potentially dangerous vehicles, for the drivers & others. Ignoring issues or customers complaints is really not the right way to do.

Three things can change this
   - someone at management understand that there is an issue needing a fix - basically they'll lose more in potential sales & late case resolution, than what a correct & fair case resolution would cost
   - either the problem becomes so big that it is impossible to ignore it - ie media start talking about it, but it would mean a severe damage to the brand
   - trials costs so much (because customer get compensated for unavailability time, misleading advertisement, legal fees,...) that someone understands that managing the issues in a correct way is the best thing to do,

The good thing is that this is very easy to solve (would Zero after sale executive monitor 30 days+ unavailability cases, this topic would not even exist, and Designerdan & me would be talking about great rides rather than arguing about bad experiences). The bad thing is that nothing seems to move, and the victim are once enthusiastic customers, now becoming increasingly negative about Zero and the idea of buying one of these bikes. So Zero, time to wake up !!!

[Marshm]

I can understand the problem when a bike has a failure and you get no resolution.  That makes me mad too.  I have had those with gas bikes over the years.  For the most part I had to fix and pay for new parts myself.  Basically I got ripped off.  So with my record, I think overall motorcycle industry is really bad on the warranty topic.  That's actually a big factor that has kept me from more purchases than I probably would have done.  I also apply this to Zero.

I really want an electric offroad bike, like the FX5.7. At that price point, which for me is quite high, I have a hard time deciding to buy.  The performance and attributes are important, but reliability is also a huge thing.  Being stranded on some remote trail that nobody will probably ride that day means I cannot expect help to arrive.  25 miles out, oh my, am I even capable of walking back 25 miles?  With riding boots, haha?  I would bleed to death from all the blisters on my feet.  Couldn't count on a cell phone having reception in many places, heck it looses connection when I go downstairs in my house. 

Dealers around here are not good.  Expecting their help, why even try, so bad.  I am treated like I should feel grateful that they are letting me buy a bike from them, or shop there. Crazy.  Customer service is dead in other stores around here also.  Maybe the people around here are just lame.

Some times spreading around the issues on forums full of past and potential buyers might get a company to put some effort into some resolution so they don't look like a bad company.  The good warranty examples presented here have no meaning to me if the bad ones exist.  Because that means I could be one of the people getting the bad one if I decided to buy.  With my track record, I would get the bad one, yes I believe that.  I am a nice person too, so why do I get treated so bad.  Unless that is the problem, seen as and easy target that won't fight back? 

It is tough to pay warranty, it might put some companies out of business.  It certainly does not help the profit side of business, but you just have to do it. Otherwise you are stealing other peoples money.  It is a crappy thing to have to go through, so I feel your pain.     

[dkw12002]

I have complete confidence in my dealer. Without dealer support, I wouldn't think of owning such high-tech motorcycles. Actually, I wouldn't own any motorcycle without a good dealer.

Part of the issue is new technology as I'm sure everyone is aware. I have owned 3 Ninja 300s...2 2013s and now a 2014. These replaced the Ninja 250r. Just adding the re-designed engine and body and adding fuel injection and optional abs was enough to cause problems, namely unsightly fairing gaps, engine stalls, and ABS not working. It took Kawa hundreds of complaints and well over a year to effectively deal with the issues, but the model is now solid. Both my 2013's had fairing gaps and stall issues. I didn't have ABS on those models. Eventually, after someone was rear-ended (is what I heard), Kawa issued recalls for the ABS and ECU. When I traded the 2013s in, the 2 problems were still present and recalls had not yet been sent out. The fairing gap also remained an issue and in fact was present in my 2014 model and some people still have not got it fixed after more than 2 years. Huge unsightly gaps. Took me 2 2-day appointments to get that fixed and it needed new fairings, brackets and clips, but it did get fixed.

Unless you are a Dr. Bass or Tikester, you better have a good dealer. These are not exactly do-it-yourself bikes. Even Dr. Bass and Trikester, etc. do a lot of communicating with the Zero people even though they do work on their own bikes. I would go so far as to say you have to expect problems with these bikes.

How the dealer and Zero handle those problems is really the main issue. I do agree if someone is without their bikes running safely for months while something is being fixed by the dealer or Zero for whatever reason, that Zero or the dealer needs to extend the warranty for all the down time, or make other arrangements like a loaner bike to be fair.

[WindRider]

I expected more troubles from theses bikes when I took the plunge and got a 12 DS this Spring.   I rode that bike for 6500 miles.  One failure quickly covered under warranty.   It never failed to startup, throttle response was perfect every time and maintenance was almost Zero.   

It completely exceeded my expectations in terms of reliability and dependability and I rode it almost every day of this season.   

In my limited experience Zero Motorcycles have been the most trouble free motorcycle that I have ever owned which I did not expect at the beginning. 

I do have a great local dealer and I would not have risked it without that knowledge.   

[vchampain]

Some update !

Still no news on my XU issue - now 7 months since the issue appeared, and 6 months without the bike. It appears that in this case the dealer did what was possible, but the issue is really on Zero side : for significant fixes, they have to send the bike back to Zero. And for refund / bike replacement, Zero has to take a decision which they do not seem to do in correct delays.

In my case, I still have no news. The good thing is that discussions on these issues attracted some press attention (two different newspapers contacted me for feedback  - apparently they mentionned other pending cases). Also, I had confirmation that the legal procedure is quite straightforward (you even do not need a lawyer, and judges are quite generous in cases where you can demonstrate constructor's lack of will to solve issues they're responsible for). Unfortunately, even the fault is on Zero's side, it is the deal which I will have to sue,  and dealers will sue Zero to get the money the judge will award me.

I'll post precise details regarding the procedure, the letters & the amounts that can be claimed very soon !

[NoiseBoy]

Why did you feel the need to create a second account to bring this up vchampain? I'm assuming it's the same person as the prose is similar and you both sign some posts with a V.

I'm glad you are reaching a resolution but it's a shame you are involving two sets of vultures. The media and the courts that is.

[LiveandLetDrive]

Is V for Vendetta?


(Couldn't help myself, carry on.  Or if V is for Vulture, carrion.  yuk yuk)

Fair enough seeking fair treatment and given the disorder I experienced (am experiencing) during the purchasing process direct from HQ I can imagine things don't always get handled well.  A shame if Zero is risking this kind of reputation as a fledgling company and hopefully they will aggressively make things right.  We're all so defensive of them because we want this to be so.

[benswing]

Fair enough seeking fair treatment and given the disorder I experienced (am experiencing) during the purchasing process direct from HQ I can imagine things don't always get handled well.  A shame if Zero is risking this kind of reputation as a fledgling company and hopefully they will aggressively make things right.  We're all so defensive of them because we want this to be so.

Actually, many of us are defensive for Zero because we have had problems resolved quickly and effectively.

[Le Z Turbo]

Still no news on my XU issue

Didn't know you also have a XU. That's a pity it's not working. What's the problem with it ?
Laurent

[vchampain]

Hi Laurent !

The XU first had problems starting (i needed to turn it off and on a few times before it started), then suddenly stopped into the traffic (you can imagine how dangerous it is !). After less than one year I had to bring it back to a dealer. Then I had no news for 3 months, until I menaced them I would go to court & claim reparation.
 
They proposed me a 2013 XU, but this model takes no passenger & needs a motorbike license which makes it useless (nobody with a license will want a small bike, and I wanted to give my XU to family members having no license). Total : after more than 6 months, I still have no solution, no indication of when I will have and nobody talks with me : the dealer explains that serious issues must be dealed with by Zero, Zero explain me that their only solution is a 2013 XU. I must had that I tried to see if I could resell the 2013 XU - even with a 50 % discount on the price, there have been no answer to an ad in the biggest used motorbike forum.

Which is ridiculous inder any law of any country : they sold me a flawed bike and should either fix it (and compensate me for the 6 months the bike I  bought was unusable because of serious & dangerous issue totally under their responsability), andf refund me. What really makes me crazy is the scandalous way i'm let without any solution or news - this is really a very bad customer service, and probably a reason that should discourage many users from buying zeros. i woud never have bought a zero had I known this could happen. And other users in this forum expressed the same concern : it seems that simple fixes or small parts changes can be dealt with, but that in case of serious issue, Zero's way to manage things is to let you down...

And now my 2013 Zero S shows the very same glitch I first had with the XU - it does not start until I turn it on and off 2 to 4 times. So I am really bitter with this situation. And I know I'm not alone...

[Le Z Turbo]

And now my 2013 Zero S shows the very same glitch

Oh yeh, this one seems to be famous but I think there's a cure with reprogramming something for the main relay to work.
However the 2012 or sooner models like your XU are notoriously unreliable, and I 120% agree with you, it should be taken care under warranty without delay. Is the french distributor skillfull enough ? That's the question that is also bothering me for my 2013DS....
On high-end mountain bikes it's the same problem here in France: the french distributors are not up to the task when problems arise. They are just up to selling you at the higher price products you will have huge difficulties to get parts, services and warranty. And they calculate price with 1$=1€ so you pay 1.5 the US price.....

[NoiseBoy]

So they did offer to give you a brand new bike? Could you not have it restricted to suit your licensing laws?

[vchampain]

Thanks for the suggestions.

They offered me a demo 2013 XU, which I thought be great because I wanted to give it to my family. Unfortunately I discovered that the 2013 XU needs a licence - weird choice, making it absolutely worthless for me. If you limit the power of your bike - which is an option a considered - then you need a complex legal procedure to ensure it can be driven without licence. Regarding the 2013 Zero, yes i'll look for a solution. But for the 2012 XU i offered other options (like paying a little bit to exchange it with a 2012 S/DS, a refund, ...) but I had no answer so far.

I have the same bitter feeling I had with my telco a few years ago - very keen to sell you something, able to solve the common issues they identified. But totally unable / uwilling / lacking the focus & resource to solve more complex cases. And they did not move until consumers associations & govt pressured them...

You're right about dealers telling you whatever they can to sell. So my advice to any new potential client is:
     - make everything said written
     - the option that you're stuck for month with a non working bike is something you must consider - go ahead only if you can afford it
     - if you lack time/expertise to deal with this sort of issue, stay away from Zero until the customer service really care - this is not the case today