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[WindRider]

Has anyone here built a JuiceBox charger for a Zero or Brammo Electric Motorcycle?

This looks like an ideal solution for a portable or garage mount FastCharger:

http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/44-customizable-juicebox-an-open-source-level-2-15kw-ev-charging-station

Doc, please chime in.......   

[frodus]

I haven't built that one, but I'm in the process of building an openEVSE:
https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/

I just need to source a relay or two for the AC switching and wire it up.

[Burton]

I am looking at building one. They have a a CHAdeMO 20kW version coming out soon you might want to wait for

[protomech]

FWIW the Juicebox is an EVSE (or charging station), not a charger.

They do have a 12 kW vehicle charger; it's not ideally suited to the Zeros, as it maxes at 70 A standard, 100 A optional (so up to 7 kW for the 2012 bikes, 11 kW for the 2013 bikes) and it's not really a sealed charger. Still, pretty interesting.
http://www.emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/10-smartcharge-12000-a-12kw-universal-voltage-ev-charger-fully-assembled-tested

[Burton]

Could you not make the EMW12KW sealed by going with their water cooled option? Though I wonder how you would cool the inductors and if they could be exposed to air.

Protomech could you better explain why the EMW12KW, if made weather proof, wouldn't be awesome for our Zeros? I believe Terry is looking at putting the 12KW, or 25KW in a givi case as his 'weather proofing' then only charge when it isn't raining outside.

I am new to the limits of Zero's so any help would be appreciated. If I recall the voltage of the 2013 is not above 118 so if we round it off to 110 then the 100Amp option would be required on the EMW12KW ... not sure if that cost more or not.

I planned on building the Juicebox for the house and maybe the EMW12KW for my touring charger. The trick is going to figure out where to put it >_< lol That is unless you have another suggestion for chargers I can use on the road the charge the bike in an hour.

I know enough about electrical equipment manufacturing to build these but I couldn't tell you how they work lol

[protomech]

I measured out dimensions for the EMW 12 kW charger on my 2012 S.

If you go water-cooled, then there's enough room to mount the sealed box of electronics and cooling plate underneath the bike, where the stock charger exists. You'll need to mount a radiator somewhere else - perhaps on the front? - and also find a place for the inductor module, which will get very very hot.

The reason it's not really suited for the 2012 Zeros is because the 2012 Zeros are relatively low voltage, and can't make full use of the charger. The standard 70A (DC) EMW charger is indeed much faster than the stock 12A (DC) Delta-Q, but Doc Bass's stack of 3 meanwells is (I recall) roughly the same size and cost as the air-cooled EMW, almost certainly more reliable (UL-listed power supplies vs a self-assembled kit), and just as fast as even the 100A upgrade EMW.

It's a slightly different story for the 2013 bikes, as their higher voltage allows the charger to provide almost 60% more power.

It's a cool idea, and I love that EMW is open-sourcing the design. I just think it makes more sense in a car (higher voltage + weatherproofed interior), or perhaps in a DIY bike build where you can package the charger better.

[WindRider]

I haven't built that one, but I'm in the process of building an openEVSE:
https://code.google.com/p/open-evse/

I just need to source a relay or two for the AC switching and wire it up.

Very cool Frodus.    Please report how the final product works with your bike!

[WindRider]

FWIW the Juicebox is an EVSE (or charging station), not a charger.

Protomech,

Thanks for chiming in.   Forgive my ignorance on the difference between an EVSE or a charger.   Here in my home state of Idaho EVs and quick charging stations are rare so my practical experience is none.   

 I have a 13 ZeroFX 5.7 and I LOVE the riding experience of that bike but range is limited and I am looking for ways to quick charge it now.   I was looking at the JuiceBox as a way to carry a charger when needed or finding host businesses around my city that would be willing to install them if I would patronize their restaurant for lunch, coffee, or other things that might help them sell some product while I charge.   For $149 I could just give them the charger and even help with the electrical installation.    I have soldering and assembly skills and I could put the basic JuiceBox kit together and not blow it up or kill myself.   I also thought about approaching the local Zero Dealer about putting in a few quick chargers as they are centrally located in the city and would make a great quick charge point.

From the JuiceBox site:  "Finally, the JuiceBox is designed to be inherently portable. The Base version's dimensions allow you to take it everywhere and enjoy up to 15kW of charging power! There is an automatic power derating for 120V outlets so you don't have to worry about overloading your house wiring in that unfortunate event when you have to resort to 120V charging."    So it seems that they intend it to be portable if desired?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this forum:  I have learned a lot from your posts.

[Burton]

I believe my bike has a size 6 controller in that location right now lol, the charger is under the 'tank.'
Correct me if I get this wrong, I am assuming I will.

DocBass had RSP2000-48's x 2 and one RSP2000-24 for 75V @ 7500W

For 110v you would need two RSP2000-48 in series and that would give you ~45.45 Amps (assuming what doc said is accurate that these are really 2500 continuous) http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15383#msg15383

To get to 10,000 Watts I assume you would need 4 of these? Two groups in parallel of two in series (-==-). That would give ~9999W ... but how many lvl2 J1772 charging stations would that take to run them. The JuiceBox 15kW lvl2 is 60A and the RSP2000-24 take 10A/230V to run so I assume you would have to have one since the total Amps is 40.

I can't seem to find the input voltage / amps required for the JuiceBox either ...  I assume it would have to be a 240V @ 50A to get the 40A (125% higher than draw). Can you even get an outlet rated that high in a residential address? I know a dryer has a 30A circuit.

Spec sheet
http://www.meanwell.com/search/rsp-2000/default.htm

Cost of the RSP2000-48's are $430 each so $1720 for 4 meanwell RSP2000-48's tempting.

Going back to the EMW 12kW charger. You mentioned the need to remote the inductor module, how far can you move that from the main electronics? I imagine the future you move it the more resistance there would be.

[protomech]

WindRider,

I'll swap you a little bit of EV knowledge for your motorcycle knowledge : )

The EV charger converts AC to the appropriate DC level to charge the battery. The EMW "smart charge 12000" is a charger. Chargers can be carried on the vehicle, typically integrated (onboard, like Zero's 1 kW 2012 charger) or fixed installation (typically quick DC, CHAdeMO or J1772 DC). The charger talks to the vehicle BMS and other sensors to safely charge the battery.

The EV "supply equipment" (EVSE) is basically a smart extension cord; essentially it connects wall AC to the AC input on the vehicle's onboard charger. J1772 has (thankfully) become the predominant EVSE technology in the US. There are other standards that use the same protocol with a different connector format, aka the European Type 2 / Mennekes connector.

***

In order to charge your bike quickly, you need two things:

1. A high-power AC supply. A typical NEMA 5-15 can supply up to 1.8 kW (120V, 15A). A typical NEMA 6-30 can supply up to 7.2 kW (240V, 30A). J1772 can often supply 240V 30A, but in some cases can supply 40A or 80A.

2. A high-power charger. This can be a fixed offboard charger (CHAdeMO), which will have its own AC supply, or an onboard charger that will need to be attached to a high power AC supply.

***

Probably your best bet for charging quickly with little or no EV-specific support infrastructure is a high-power charger that you carry with you when you need it that can be attached to typical 240V sockets.

Options:
1. Production chargers - Delta-Q from Zero (1.65 kW total when paired with onboard charger, +10 pounds) will charge your bike in 3 hours, Elcon TCCH-84-50 5 kW, 40 pounds will charge your bike in 1 hour.
2. Semi-production chargers - DocBass and BSDThw have built chargers from a set of Meanwell power supplies. These aren't weather-proofed, but they're more power dense than the typical production chargers. 2x RSP-2000-48 + 1x RSP-2000-24 would weigh about 15 pounds and charge your bike in slightly over an hour.
3. Hand-built - EMW smartcharge 12 kW, 25 pounds! Wish they had a 6 kW 12 pound version.

Any of these can be attached to typical AC power sockets if you have access to them, or to a J1772 inlet mounted on the bike.

Asking businesses about installing fixed J1772 EVSE is great idea. I wouldn't lead in by offering to pay for the EVSE, but offering to help with installation and advice would be fantastic. The minimum price for a full JuiceBox EVSE is $278: $149 base + $129 12' 32A cable and J1772 "gun".

[protomech]

I believe my bike has a size 6 controller in that location right now lol, the charger is under the 'tank.'
Correct me if I get this wrong, I am assuming I will.

Burton, did you buy Ted Rich's 2013 S race bike? I think the production 2013 S bikes had the charger modules installed underneath the battery box, but yours may be in a different location.

DocBass had RSP2000-48's x 2 and one RSP2000-24 for 75V @ 7500W

For 110v you would need two RSP2000-48 in series and that would give you ~45.45 Amps (assuming what doc said is accurate that these are really 2500 continuous) http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=3085.msg15383#msg15383

To get to 10,000 Watts I assume you would need 4 of these? Two groups in parallel of two in series (-==-). That would give ~9999W ... but how many lvl2 J1772 charging stations would that take to run them. The JuiceBox 15kW lvl2 is 60A and the RSP2000-24 take 10A/230V to run so I assume you would have to have one since the total Amps is 40.

You'd need > 40A on 240V to deliver 10 kW to the battery. This could be two 30A J1772 EVSE or 1 50A J1772 EVSE. 40A J1772 would be close (9.6 kW, probably 8.5 to 9 kW to the battery).

Chargers typically provide constant current (up to 100A for a 1C charge rate on the ZF11.4 battery) up to a point - perhaps 113 to 115V DC - then they switch to constant voltage to finish off the charge. At a very low state of charge - say 3.2 volts per cell - 100A charge would only require 8.9 kW DC. At the top of the charge you'd draw up to 11 kW DC. So charging power is not constant.

4x RSP-2000-48 (2s2p) and 1x RSP-2000-24 (in series with the -48s) would provide 80A of charging power, so about a 1.25 hour charge (~25 pounds). Alternatively, 9 RSP-2000-12 @ 13 volts each would provide a 100A charge (~45 pounds).

You'll have to decide if the extra 15 minutes is worth the extra expense, weight, and volume to carry with you.

Going back to the EMW 12kW charger. You mentioned the need to remote the inductor module, how far can you move that from the main electronics? I imagine the future you move it the more resistance there would be.

Here's the response I got back from the EMW folks:

Thank you for your kind words and the interest in our EV conversion products!

If specified at the time of order, we can modify the charger for 100A at no additional cost. Mostly requires a different custom inductor. We are not producing 150A yet but some of our customers are. That said, based on your info, I think 100A would be sufficient for your purposes, correct?

I would recommend to go with the PFC version - without it, you would be able to draw only ~5kW from a 7kW J1772 due to bad power factor.

You can get close to 4" height. The absolute minimum you can get is ~4.5": IGBTs are 1.2" high, PCB/mounting hardware is 0.1", caps are 2", liquid cold plate is ~0.6" - total of 3.9" plus clearance from caps to enclosure (0.1") and enclosure thickness (0.1" for 2 sides) - for grand total of 4.1" minimum.

In this config, you would need to mount the inductors separately. The length of wiring is not super-critical in that case - the only real consideration is the amount of EMI you can tolerate while charging. If you twist the wires, you should be fine. Whatever second enclosure you will be using for the inductors (each is ~5" diameter, ~2" tall), it will have to be ventilated. Inductors will dissipate 200-300W at 7kW, 100A output. They can run at 100C continuous so cooling is substantially less critical than for semicon components.

Once the inductors are outside of the enclosure, you can seal the main enclosure (assuming liquid cooling). You will still need a small fan inside the enclosure to get the heat out of the PCB and IGBT drivers. The amount of heat is not that significant so can be dissipated passively by the enclosure outer surface.

If you are interested, we could work with you on getting this combo going. One option might be for you to pick the specific enclosures on DigiKey, etc. and send the links to us. We will check if they could work and then build a custom unit for you. Pricing would be similar to what we have on our site for a full PFC unit plus a small customization fee.

Let me know what you think.

[Burton]

Burton, did you buy Ted Rich's 2013 S race bike? I think the production 2013 S bikes had the charger modules installed underneath the battery box, but yours may be in a different location.

Nope, I bought Turbo ... EC's bike, I think EC worked on TR's bike though.

Chargers typically provide constant current (up to 100A for a 1C charge rate on the ZF11.4 battery) up to a point - perhaps 113 to 115V DC - then they switch to constant voltage to finish off the charge. At a very low state of charge - say 3.2 volts per cell - 100A charge would only require 8.9 kW DC. At the top of the charge you'd draw up to 11 kW DC. So charging power is not constant.

Will the EMW12KW automatically tapper off of is this something we have to do manually? I remember reading that Doc Bass let the last couple of % be handled by the onboard BMS / Charger to balance the cells. The assembly part 8 video shows it ramping down by itself but figured you might know

4x RSP-2000-48 (2s2p) and 1x RSP-2000-24 (in series with the -48s) would provide 80A of charging power, so about a 1.25 hour charge (~25 pounds). Alternatively, 9 RSP-2000-12 @ 13 volts each would provide a 100A charge (~45 pounds).

Could you explain why it is only 80A?
Is this right:
( (trimmed up) 50V@40A (in series) 50V@40A = 100V @40A )
(in parallel)
( (trimmed up) 50V@40A (in series) 50V@40A = 100V @40A )
=
100V @ 80 + (trimmed down ##? V @ 80A) = Not sure what the 24V would be trimmed to.


I thought these could be adjusted to 55V so two in series would be 110V?
I also thought they were 2500W continuous which would be 45.45A @ 55V not 36.36A @ 55V

Would RSP-2400-48's be better since they cost nearly the same? http://www.meanwell.com/search/RSP-2400/RSP-2400-spec.pdf

I would recommend to go with the PFC version - without it, you would be able to draw only ~5kW from a 7kW J1772 due to bad power factor.

Just looked that the J1772 stations around me and most L2 are 6.6W >_<
What input voltage / amps would be required for the EMW12KW to spit out the desired 100A @ 110V ? Something tells me I wont be able to do it without two J1772's -_- Most places around me have one.
In all the demo videos I see them input 81A at either 151V or 335V

[protomech]

The EMW charger is fully programmable, you can set the CC/CV point or install custom charging profiles, etc. It's pretty awesome.

Keep in mind that what I know is based upon research but not practice. I would defer to DoctorBass or BSDThw, as they're actually building these high power charging systems.

The ZF11.4 battery is 3.7 volts per cell, 24.5 Ah cells. The cell voltage will vary from 4.2 volts (completely charged) down to around 3.2 volts (very nearly completely discharged), 28 cells in series means your operational voltage for the charger should vary between 89.6 volts to 117.6 volts.

My understanding is that the power supplies are set to somewhere near the maximum battery voltage. When they're connected to the battery (which acts as a giant load) and then switched on, they will try to pull the battery up to the maximum voltage, limited by the maximum current of the power supply.

The RSP-2000-48 have 42A maximum current, two in parallel can provide up to 84A and can be trimmed between 43 to 56 V x2 = 86 to 112 volts. Unfortunately, that's not just barely not high enough to completely fill the Zero battery, which is why you add an RSP-2000-24 on top of the 2s2p RSP-2000-48 stack. Actually, I think an RSP-2000-12 would work just as well.. and that has an 100A maximum output. So yeah, the max current should be 84A.

5x RSP-2400-24, or 4x RSP-2400-24 and 1x RSP-2000-12 would be able to provide 100A current. RSP-2400 is about twice as large and about 70% heavier than RSP-2000 (100A = 15.2 kg = 33 lbs, 84A = 9.8 kg = 21 lbs), which seems like it might be a poor trade for the extra charging power.

Yeah, you'd need 2x 30A J1772 inlets to power the EMW charger @ 10 kW.

[WindRider]

WindRider,

I'll swap you a little bit of EV knowledge for your motorcycle knowledge : )

Thanks for that and your detailed post.   I think I understand better now what the JuiceBox is and what charger options there for carrying on the bike.   And yes, I was a motorcyclist for many years before I got hooked on these crazy EV bikes.

Given that the Zero QuikQ optional charger is fairly compact and only 10 lbs it is probably the best thing to carry on my FX as that plus the onboard charger will pull pretty near all of the power that a standard 120VAC plug can deliver and a 120V plug is still the most abundantly available option in my area.
 

[Burton]

Protomech, thanks I get it now. So 28 cells in series and 4 sets of those in parallel make up the battery pack for a total of 112 cells ... maybe lol

It seems like it would make more sense to do 2 RSP-2000-48 in series with a RSP-2000-12/24 then have another identical set both with J1772 connections since you can't get more than 30A out of local J1772's
Then you could place them up over your front wheel with some machining to hide them, well in my case hide them given I am streamlining the bike like Terry's. But they weigh so little putting them in the tail section wouldn't hurt too much. Then I can leave the front for heavier things.

It seems all the RSP-2000-XX cost about the same so it would be about $1,290 per 'charger' (just in meanwells) with each producing up to 120V @ 42A, I think. So for two of these it would be $2,580 and of course each would require their own J1772 ... that whole single J1772 being more common than 2 thing is really putting a hamper on my world domination plans :/

The EMW12KW would output probably the same Watts as the meanwell setup with one J1772 but if two were there you could do the 10kW ... hmmm ...